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codhands
Feb 21, 2009, 3:35 AM
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Howzabout just all rope manufacturers make bi-color ropes. then end markings would be fine. Or.. just find the center of your rope.
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notapplicable
Feb 22, 2009, 9:05 PM
Post #78 of 127
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billl7 wrote: Personally, I'd rather lower a person first (edit: assuming that's an option) than stack the rope on my hips, especially for a double rope rap. Bill L
Yeah, two 60m ropes is a lot to have hanging from your side. Especially if you already have a rack, slings, water bottle, etc. handing from your body.
Not saying it can't be done but I'm gonna avoid it if possible.
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notapplicable
Feb 22, 2009, 9:17 PM
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originalpmac wrote: I like the end marks, because it gives me a perfect idea of how much rope is left, which comes in handy when you are out on an uncertain multi-pitch climbs and your friend is getting out of hearing distance. I can tell for the most part how much is left without them, but I think it is useful.
Is that minor convenience worth the increased risk of a partner (new or old) who is unfamiliar with the rope rigging an uneven rappel? It's easy enough to look at your coil and estimate within 1 or 2 meters how much rope is left.
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curt
Feb 27, 2009, 4:44 PM
Post #80 of 127
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angry wrote: Skidemon27 wrote: i hope your friend is truly going to heal up good and get back into climbing, however we cant go blaming the rope markings. if he took his time and knew his gear and most of all his life line,,,( the rope) then this would have not been an issue at all. thats what happpens when people put markings on rope and try to make more short cuts for the lazier people.........rope marking are there for a reason......even though i think just the middle should be marked for convience I disagree. The end marks are a hazard. Without them, this guy wouldn't have a broken wrist and ankle. Without them, some kids in South Dakota would still have their grandpa. If ever I've seen a hazard, potentially even an actionable hazard in climbing gear, this is it. A blanket industry wide recall won't bring someone back but it's the right step to move forward.
As much as I hate lawsuits, I think rope manufacturers who continue to put end markings on their ropes should be held liable for any accidents caused by them. By now all rope manufacturers are aware that these things contribute to accidents--and not removing them from their product makes them negligent. They are knowingly making their products less safe.
Curt
(This post was edited by curt on Feb 27, 2009, 4:45 PM)
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acorneau
Feb 27, 2009, 5:01 PM
Post #81 of 127
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curt wrote: As much as I hate lawsuits, I think rope manufacturers who continue to put end markings on their ropes should be held liable for any accidents caused by them.
No way it would stick. It's completely operator error.
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jaablink
Feb 27, 2009, 5:44 PM
Post #82 of 127
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I agree. It would never stick… I choose not to buy marked lines in preference to marking them myself. There are many who choose to buy marked lines. That is their choice.(choice/choose being the operative words) No matter what kind of rope you choose to buy, marked or unmarked the line should be checked for defects and accuracy like the manufacturer states in the warranty paperwork accompanying the rope. This way it is under full warranty and can be sent back for a replacement if a manufacturer defect is found. They all have a …No-Hassle Policy… the companies do not want to sell products that will hurt you. that’s bad for business. These are Life lines and you have your own responsibility to check your gear for errors constantly, as well as knowing where the markings are if applicable. (trust but verify)
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j_ung
Feb 27, 2009, 6:23 PM
Post #83 of 127
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curt wrote: angry wrote: Skidemon27 wrote: i hope your friend is truly going to heal up good and get back into climbing, however we cant go blaming the rope markings. if he took his time and knew his gear and most of all his life line,,,( the rope) then this would have not been an issue at all. thats what happpens when people put markings on rope and try to make more short cuts for the lazier people.........rope marking are there for a reason......even though i think just the middle should be marked for convience I disagree. The end marks are a hazard. Without them, this guy wouldn't have a broken wrist and ankle. Without them, some kids in South Dakota would still have their grandpa. If ever I've seen a hazard, potentially even an actionable hazard in climbing gear, this is it. A blanket industry wide recall won't bring someone back but it's the right step to move forward. As much as I hate lawsuits, I think rope manufacturers who continue to put end markings on their ropes should be held liable for any accidents caused by them. By now all rope manufacturers are aware that these things contribute to accidents--and not removing them from their product makes them negligent. They are knowingly making their products less safe. Curt
How many lives have end marks saved? Without knowing that number relative to the accidents they've contributed to, I don't think I can agree with your statement. I don't believe for a second that any of those companies simply doesn't care enough to make the switch back.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Feb 27, 2009, 6:26 PM)
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reno
Feb 27, 2009, 6:25 PM
Post #84 of 127
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Just for my own clarification:
Are these "end marks" on ropes the same size/color as the commonly accepted "middle marks"?
I climbed with a guy who used a rope marker, and ten feet from the end of his rope, he drew a single line, perhaps a half-inch wide. Twenty feet, he drew two lines, both half-inch wide, and half-inch apart. Thirty feet, he did three lines.
His middle mark, however, was a long, large mark. Perhaps eight or ten inches long. There was no way to confuse the "end" and the "middle" marks, as they looked very different.
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cracklover
Feb 27, 2009, 7:17 PM
Post #85 of 127
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reno wrote: Just for my own clarification: Are these "end marks" on ropes the same size/color as the commonly accepted "middle marks"?
Some of them are, yes. Two marks, about 8 inches apart from each other, each about 4 inches wide. One set in the middle, and one set about 6 meters from each end.
Other ropes have one type of marking for the middle, and another for the end.
Certainly the ropes that use the same middle and end marks are the worst, but I think all the end marks should go.
The trouble is - the people who are mistaking the end for middle marks are, I believe, not the owners of the ropes. So they may never have come across such a thing as an end mark before, they didn't read the manual, and they're totally familiar with middle-marks. I mean, hell, if you see something that looks exactly like you think it is, wouldn't you treat it that way?
To my mind, it's definitely user error on the part of the person who raps off the end of the rope, but it's an accident with a major contributing factor - a misleading mark on the rope.
The misleading marks should go.
GO
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raingod
Feb 27, 2009, 7:33 PM
Post #86 of 127
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I thought in the accident that started this thread, he was going climbing without a partner so I assume it was his own rope.
And if you are using gear you are unfamiliar with you should inspect it. Who knows whats wrong with it. Maybe it had a middle mark but the end has been trimmed...
In my opinion 100% User error.
Ron
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curt
Feb 27, 2009, 8:37 PM
Post #87 of 127
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j_ung wrote: curt wrote: angry wrote: Skidemon27 wrote: i hope your friend is truly going to heal up good and get back into climbing, however we cant go blaming the rope markings. if he took his time and knew his gear and most of all his life line,,,( the rope) then this would have not been an issue at all. thats what happpens when people put markings on rope and try to make more short cuts for the lazier people.........rope marking are there for a reason......even though i think just the middle should be marked for convience I disagree. The end marks are a hazard. Without them, this guy wouldn't have a broken wrist and ankle. Without them, some kids in South Dakota would still have their grandpa. If ever I've seen a hazard, potentially even an actionable hazard in climbing gear, this is it. A blanket industry wide recall won't bring someone back but it's the right step to move forward. As much as I hate lawsuits, I think rope manufacturers who continue to put end markings on their ropes should be held liable for any accidents caused by them. By now all rope manufacturers are aware that these things contribute to accidents--and not removing them from their product makes them negligent. They are knowingly making their products less safe. Curt How many lives have end marks saved? Without knowing that number relative to the accidents they've contributed to, I don't think I can agree with your statement. I don't believe for a second that any of those companies simply doesn't care enough to make the switch back.
Please cite one documented case where these added lines have "saved" someone. Absent that evidence (because there is none) and because there is clear evidence that they have actually caused accidents, removing these lines is an absolute no-brainer.
Curt
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curt
Feb 27, 2009, 8:41 PM
Post #88 of 127
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acorneau wrote: curt wrote: As much as I hate lawsuits, I think rope manufacturers who continue to put end markings on their ropes should be held liable for any accidents caused by them. No way it would stick. It's completely operator error.
and...
jaablink wrote: I agree. It would never stick…
Neither of you have the slightest idea what you're talking about.
Curt
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acorneau
Feb 27, 2009, 9:02 PM
Post #89 of 127
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curt wrote: Neither of you have the slightest idea what you're talking about.
Please enlighten us.
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jaablink
Feb 27, 2009, 9:07 PM
Post #90 of 127
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The reason you never hear about the good is because only the bad is reported….. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would understand that.
What’s the matter sweetheart? Having a bad day? Do you need a hug? Or is it that you just like to argue with people. You seem to have left out the parts where said was that one has a choice to buy marked or unmarked lines, also the part that said you should always check your gear . And the (trust but verify part) did you even bother to read the rest of the post? here is a hug >:D<, sorry you are having a bad day. Keep in mind you are not the only one who has bad days. The kid that fell had a bad day too. Thankfully he will be ok.
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jaablink
Feb 27, 2009, 9:15 PM
Post #91 of 127
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originalpmac wrote: Hey all. I am the guy that decked. My name is Pierce. Thanks to all of you for wishing well on the recovery. Get this... I am going to work in the morning and probably climbing sometime next week. I only sprained my ankle, and that wasn't even a bad sprain. So thanks for all the well wishes. It is much appreciated. To those of you blaming the end marks on the rope; don't. It is not the factory's fault that I didn't check my ends, it was mine. I was rapping into the New Funtier to get in some solo laps after work, was in a haste, and rapped off the short end. I'll tell you, that rope whizzing through made one hell of a snapping sounds, and sudden'y I was rocketing down. I tried catching myself to no avail, my crampons caught a ledge about ten feet off the deck, momentum flipped me over backwards, fast. Thought I was about to break my neck or back. Totally thought I was dead, done for. Smacked onto the ground, scared the living shit out of some poor sap. I layed still tomake sure there was no head, neck, back injuries. It was only when found out people were talking to 911, that I stood up and waved them off. I climbed out some easy gully on toprope, then hobbled back to the park entrance where a friend of mine was coming to work turning on the taps. He hooked up a ride home to town, and that was the day. Close call, for sure, the closest I have been. To those self described professionals , don't blame the factory markings. I still think they are great, usefull and a good idea. just don't be a dumbass, check your shit, and don't get yourself killed. Thanks again to those of you wishing me well, I really appreciate it. Pierce |
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curt
Feb 27, 2009, 9:24 PM
Post #92 of 127
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jaablink wrote: The reason you never hear about the good is because only the bad is reported….. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would understand that. What’s the matter sweetheart? Having a bad day? Do you need a hug? Or is it that you just like to argue with people...
It's really that I just don't have any interest in the opinions of ignorant people. Sure, one has the right to buy a rope with or without end marks. However, people occasionally climb on other people's ropes--with which they are unfamiliar. Further, and to your "legal" comment about liability not being applicable to the rope manufacturers, you obviously have no knowledge whatsoever of contributory negligence or proximate cause. Go hug yourself, jackass.
Curt
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jaablink
Feb 27, 2009, 9:34 PM
Post #93 of 127
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raingod wrote: I thought in the accident that started this thread, he was going climbing without a partner so I assume it was his own rope. And if you are using gear you are unfamiliar with you should inspect it. Who knows whats wrong with it. Maybe it had a middle mark but the end has been trimmed... In my opinion 100% User error. Ron
At lest Pierce has the balls to take responsibility for his own actions and admit his own errors. He used one of his 9 lives that day. He learned from the error and made the lesson count. Unlike you Curt trying to put the blame on someone else.
or you are a troll
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angry
Feb 27, 2009, 10:02 PM
Post #94 of 127
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Curt is definitely a troll. He does not exist, he's just some anonymous fat woman in a smokey basement.
I agree with "her" though.
Any half assed lawyer would have no trouble whatsoever bringing a case against a rope manufacturer considering recent cases.
Good for Pierce for owning up to his own actions. It's what I'd do, you'd do, Curt would do. It's what we do. That's why this hasn't his the courts.
Considering the lifespan of ropes (2-5 years), all new non-middle marks need to be stopped, now. If not, maybe next time (and there will be a next time sadly), it might be someone who's not so willing to take responsibility for their actions.
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jaablink
Feb 27, 2009, 11:29 PM
Post #95 of 127
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I buy unmarked lines myself, and I go through 2 or 3 sets a year . I just picked up a set of the 70m pz dragonflies, they are the first factory marked lines I own . I have a friend at West Point who uses these marked lines. I have shared lines with him in the past and the first thing I noticed was that when a marked section of line went through the ATC, I would stall/slow down (he explained it to be a warning system) . The marks warn you by changing the handling of the line and visually. As I stated, I like to add my own marks, only center and you really need to look for them. In fact I modify my gear all the time. I recently added teeth to top of my cascade picks so I can match on them without the pick sliding to the point. (they work great)
We are climbers, we adapt to new environments all the time, I would think that is one of the things that draws us to this activity (the challenge). We meet the challenges that are in front of us , we fit our gear to adapt to the situations awarded to us. We improvise all the time. We think on our feet and calculate possible problems before and as they arise…
I choose one thing , someone choose another. I like BD cams others like WC friends… I like the fact that I have a choice…
You are probably right about some shyster lawyer trying to make a buck. That would be bad for everyone. Instead of that money going to development of quality products and employment of competent people it would go to defense. Raise the cost of products, hurt the reputation of the manufacturer, and may even cause them a slow death. Many would loose their jobs. That could bring us past the 10% mark…sorry but that does not sound ethical to me.
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curt
Feb 27, 2009, 11:33 PM
Post #96 of 127
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jaablink wrote: raingod wrote: I thought in the accident that started this thread, he was going climbing without a partner so I assume it was his own rope. And if you are using gear you are unfamiliar with you should inspect it. Who knows whats wrong with it. Maybe it had a middle mark but the end has been trimmed... In my opinion 100% User error. Ron At lest Pierce has the balls to take responsibility for his own actions and admit his own errors. He used one of his 9 lives that day. He learned from the error and made the lesson count. Unlike you Curt trying to put the blame on someone else. or you are a troll
I'm also glad that Pierce took responsibility for his own actions--and I'm also very glad that he will be OK. I still believe, however, that this accident probably would not have happened at all--if Pierce did not mistake one of these useless end marks for the rope's middle-mark. And that, of course, would be impossible if they weren't there. I'm sorry this is so terribly difficult for you to understand.
Curt
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socalclimber
Feb 27, 2009, 11:56 PM
Post #97 of 127
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jaablink wrote: raingod wrote: I thought in the accident that started this thread, he was going climbing without a partner so I assume it was his own rope. And if you are using gear you are unfamiliar with you should inspect it. Who knows whats wrong with it. Maybe it had a middle mark but the end has been trimmed... In my opinion 100% User error. Ron At lest Pierce has the balls to take responsibility for his own actions and admit his own errors. He used one of his 9 lives that day. He learned from the error and made the lesson count. Unlike you Curt trying to put the blame on someone else. or you are a troll
Before you start accusing people of laying blame on everyone else or being a troll, maybe you should find out who it is your talking to in the future. It's clear you don't.
And, I happen to agree with Curt to some extent on this one. While I still don't know why people seem to be having so much trouble these days determining the length of their ropes or where the ends are, the facts are becoming very clear to me that this design is flawed. Therefore it's a really bad idea and should be yanked.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Feb 27, 2009, 11:57 PM)
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majid_sabet
Feb 28, 2009, 12:05 AM
Post #98 of 127
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All it takes one fuc*up to start a disaster all these end marks have done nothing but killing climbers. Three lost their lives last year and at least two got injured this year due to accidentally using them as mid mark.
These fuc*ing end marks must be removed, either voluntarily or by force in conjunctions with group of fat asshole* who have a law degree.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 28, 2009, 12:07 AM)
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jaablink
Feb 28, 2009, 12:11 AM
Post #99 of 127
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socalclimber wrote: jaablink wrote: raingod wrote: I thought in the accident that started this thread, he was going climbing without a partner so I assume it was his own rope. And if you are using gear you are unfamiliar with you should inspect it. Who knows whats wrong with it. Maybe it had a middle mark but the end has been trimmed... In my opinion 100% User error. Ron At lest Pierce has the balls to take responsibility for his own actions and admit his own errors. He used one of his 9 lives that day. He learned from the error and made the lesson count. Unlike you Curt trying to put the blame on someone else. or you are a troll Before you start accusing people of laying blame on everyone else or being a troll, maybe you should find out who it is your talking to in the future. It's clear you don't. And, I happen to agree with Curt to some extent on this one. While I still don't know why people seem to be having so much trouble these days determining the length of their ropes or where the ends are, the facts are becoming very clear to me that this design is flawed. Therefore it's a really bad idea and should be yanked.
He and I have shared similar views on touchy subjects in the past . We have also disagreed on things in the past. I respect him and his opinion, and more so his ethic. Just as I do Angry. As we have similar views. Curt is a grown man, I don’t think he needs you to come and save him form a conversation with me.
(This post was edited by jaablink on Feb 28, 2009, 12:16 AM)
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socalclimber
Feb 28, 2009, 2:43 AM
Post #100 of 127
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jaablink wrote: socalclimber wrote: jaablink wrote: raingod wrote: I thought in the accident that started this thread, he was going climbing without a partner so I assume it was his own rope. And if you are using gear you are unfamiliar with you should inspect it. Who knows whats wrong with it. Maybe it had a middle mark but the end has been trimmed... In my opinion 100% User error. Ron At lest Pierce has the balls to take responsibility for his own actions and admit his own errors. He used one of his 9 lives that day. He learned from the error and made the lesson count. Unlike you Curt trying to put the blame on someone else. or you are a troll Before you start accusing people of laying blame on everyone else or being a troll, maybe you should find out who it is your talking to in the future. It's clear you don't. And, I happen to agree with Curt to some extent on this one. While I still don't know why people seem to be having so much trouble these days determining the length of their ropes or where the ends are, the facts are becoming very clear to me that this design is flawed. Therefore it's a really bad idea and should be yanked. I know exactly who he is , Angry ”some fat lady in a smoke filled basement” lol He and I have shared similar views on touchy subjects in the past . We have also disagreed on things in the past. I respect him and his opinion, and more so his ethic. Just as I do Angry. As we have similar views. Curt is a grown man, I don’t think he needs you to come and save him form a conversation with me.
That was never my intention.
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