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okinawatricam
Jan 29, 2004, 5:01 AM
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Curt In reply to: Hey, I'll climb with you anytime too. All of these Sport vs. Trad arguments should properly be interpreted as comments against the opposing philosophy, not the person.
I agree. I once was a firm believer like you, but I have moved around so much that I now know better. I like climbing with everyone, especially those who see things differently from me. It helps me understand and evolve my own ideas.
I wouldn't be supprised if we have met before. Although I enjoy sport climbing, you and I seem to have similar taste in routes.
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climbsomething
Jan 29, 2004, 5:05 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Oh my god, I know I didn't name names, but I almost sounded like Curt there! I have climbed extensively with... Curt, save me from myself!!!! :shock: But was it ethically-inferior sport climbing? :lol: Oh geez, now I have to fess up. Yes, yes I have sport climbed with climbsomething--are you happy now? But, I also got her involved in bouldering. Quid pro quo, eh? Curt
MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
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bobd1953
Jan 29, 2004, 5:09 AM
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In reply to: I agree. I once was a firm believer like you, but I have moved around so much that I now know better. I like climbing with everyone, especially those who see things differently from me. It helps me understand and evolve my own ideas. I wouldn't be supprised if we have met before. Although I enjoy sport climbing, you and I seem to have similar taste in routes.
I can just feel the love popping out of my keyboard!
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climbsomething
Jan 29, 2004, 5:10 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Reading his post, I would say Curt is a great person to climb with. I have to agree thought, that not evryoneone who post here is what they claim to be. Hey, I'll climb with you anytime too. All of these Sport vs. Trad arguments should properly be interpreted as comments against the opposing philosophy, not the person. Curt
In an essay that is one page, single-spaced, respond to the following claim made by Sharon Crowley and Debra Hawhee:
It seems to us that Americans do not value disagreement as highly as ancient rhetoricians did. Our culture does not look at disagreement as a way of uncovering alternative courses of action. Americans often refuse to debate each other about important matters like religion or politics, retreating into silence if someone brings either subject up in public discourse. In fact, if someone disagrees publicly with someone else about politics or religion, Americans sometimes take that as a breach of good manners. This is so because we tend to link people's opinions to their identities. Americans assume that people's opinions result from personal experiences, and hence that those opinions are somehow "theirs"--that they alone "own" them. (2-3)
Bless you, bickering climber dudes, oh bless you, for doing my homework for me!
Now, instead of bashing my brain out coming up with a topic, I am going to watch Joe Dirt and eat popsicles :mrgreen:
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curt
Jan 29, 2004, 5:16 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Oh my god, I know I didn't name names, but I almost sounded like Curt there! I have climbed extensively with... Curt, save me from myself!!!! :shock: But was it ethically-inferior sport climbing? :lol: Oh geez, now I have to fess up. Yes, yes I have sport climbed with climbsomething--are you happy now? But, I also got her involved in bouldering. Quid pro quo, eh? Curt I have pictures. Of Curt. In a harness. A real sewn harness with leg loops, not one of those swami dealies. He's AT LEAST 40 feet off the ground!!! That's more feet up than years in his age or hairs on his head!!!! :shock: And I have pics of him rappelling!!! AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
OK, the gloves are off. I thought we agreed long ago to a price for those negatives. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Curt
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climbsomething
Jan 29, 2004, 5:18 AM
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Don't make me hurt you, Old Man ;)
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okinawatricam
Jan 29, 2004, 5:20 AM
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I would love a copy of that essay. Any idea where I can get one.
One of the things I like about climbing, beside movement on rock, is the people and the ideas they bring with them. I have climb with people who say bolt everything and others who say bolt nothing. I had fun with both. We discussed the issues at lenght. I have a hard time dealing with people who can't defend their statement. I hate to hear, "that"s my opinion," without having a reason for it.
My wife and I once argued about bolted belays. We were talking about El Cap at the time. She thinks all belays should be bolted for safety reason, ease of retreat. (not just ElCap) I don't agree with her. We have never resolved the issue.
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fracture
Jan 29, 2004, 5:22 AM
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In reply to: I hate to hear, "that"s my opinion," without having a reason for it.
And not just for discussions about climbing.
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curt
Jan 29, 2004, 5:23 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Reading his post, I would say Curt is a great person to climb with. I have to agree thought, that not evryoneone who post here is what they claim to be. Hey, I'll climb with you anytime too. All of these Sport vs. Trad arguments should properly be interpreted as comments against the opposing philosophy, not the person. Curt and Curt, this quote just made me spit out Gatorade in GLEE because this line just FELL right into the lap of this essay prompt for my *adopts haughty English prof voice* Advanced Composition and Rhetoric class: In an essay that is one page, single-spaced, respond to the following claim made by Sharon Crowley and Debra Hawhee:
It seems to us that Americans do not value disagreement as highly as ancient rhetoricians did. Our culture does not look at disagreement as a way of uncovering alternative courses of action. Americans often refuse to debate each other about important matters like religion or politics, retreating into silence if someone brings either subject up in public discourse. In fact, if someone disagrees publicly with someone else about politics or religion, Americans sometimes take that as a breach of good manners. This is so because we tend to link people's opinions to their identities. Americans assume that people's opinions result from personal experiences, and hence that those opinions are somehow "theirs"--that they alone "own" them. (2-3) Bless you, bickering climber dudes, oh bless you, for doing my homework for me! Now, instead of bashing my brain out coming up with a topic, I am going to watch Joe Dirt and eat popsicles :mrgreen:
Hillary,
Study 20th century politics in Britain. Specifically, read about the WWII era and the arguments between Churchill, Chamberlain, Attlee and others. It was certainly then a more genteel society. These guys were adamantly opposed to the philosophies of each other and vehement antagonists. Yet, they had a great deal of respect for each other.
Curt
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dbarandiaran
Jan 29, 2004, 7:08 AM
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im glad this thread hasnt been locked. i read the sport compliments trad thread and really wanted to put my two cents in, and now i have the chance.
I think bolting is clearly an issue of resraint. im not going to hunt for quotes, but someone here said trad areas should remain trad and bolting in an established sport area is cool, while someone else said it is no good to bolt a protectable climb in a sport area. perfect example of how to show restraint. i sport climbed quite a bit in austin, tx, where there is very little trad climbing, (sorry e-rock fans) and learned quite a bit from my experiences there. since moving to colorado, i have done very little sport climbing, but one day really stands out. i went climbing at upper dream canyon, and found that the bolts there are so close that you could easily aid up them. this is unacceptable. another time, we went to the ironclads, and climbed this climb called shaking the pope's hand. the bolting on this climb was very well planned, a bolt before any tricky section, and no additional bolts. once again, restraint.
as to the issue of ground-up or rapping, pre-inspection, etc...
ground up may be more risky, gutsy, purer, whatever adjective you want to apply, but rapping, cleaning, etc. should not bring a judgement of "cheater" or "unfair means", maybe the aspiring first acsencionist didn't want to risk death, disfigurement, which is always a possibility when getting on a new climb with no idea of the protection, difficulty, etc. that means that either the climber didn't have the cajones or the climber was sane, all about point of view.
ok final point about safety, pertaining to comments about sporties jumping on trad and hurting themselves for not recognizing dangers, limits of ability etc. a valid point for sure, but ultimately that is the responsibility of the climber, not the person who bolted routes, enabling climbers without gear experience to climb difficult routes. i started on sport and can pull down 5.10 or so, and i am starting to trad, but i know not to jump on 5.10 trad, right now climbing 5.7-5.8 and will continue at that level, regardless of ease, until absolutely certain that my abilities in gear are sufficient that i feel comfortable pushing the grade.
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okinawatricam
Jan 29, 2004, 8:02 AM
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dbarandiaran nice job stating your views. I agree with you idea of restraint. The gree belt in Austin was a fun place to climb, and enchanted is unique too.
You brought up the point of Ground up being dangerous. I don't agree with you on that at all times. I think that rap bolting comes in pretty useful when you are dealing with areas where the quality of rock is questionable. Limestone cliffs for example.
I think many of the anti bolt poster here would still be apposed of a ground up sport route, where the bolts were placed from hooks.
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dingus
Jan 29, 2004, 1:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It sure seems strange that someone can be an A...hole when he states his opinion, but after he gives his name, people excuse themselves for saying it. I guess that is status makes his opinion alright, but the same opinion from someone less known sucks and make him..... You continue to be one of the more obtuse posters on this site. Yes, in real life (and not on some goddam internet site) there is indeed a mutual respect among those of us who have actually accomplished something in our climbing careers--whether we always agree with one another or not. Curt
Maybe so, but he wasn't the only one to make that observation.
DMT
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unabonger
Jan 29, 2004, 2:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: and have proven to be a ground for testing of limits in traditional ways--Matt Samet in the Flatirons He was not testing the limits of Traditional Climbing. He started from the top and worked his way down placing gear and top-roping the route many times before leading it.
Fair enough, but I'd suggest that with the advent of a genre called "Sport Climbing" the definition of Traditional Climbing should expand to include many things that are clearly NOT Sport Climbing. Matt's climb falls in that area--he employed no fixed gear, he rehearsed it, and he sent it.
I assert that technique, more properly known as the "Headpoint" falls within the genre of "Traditional Climbing".
More to the point of the discussion is that this adventurous ascent would not have been possible without the protection of the Flatirons from bolting--which I opposed at the time, and I still hope that a New Route Review system ala Eldorado Canyon will be succesfully implemented.
Dingus, thank you for your reminder that the old school also employed methods that destroyed rock. We are all in a glass house here, folks, and we can see what you look like when you're undressed.
The PrePlacedBonger
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deafears
Jan 29, 2004, 4:12 PM
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"i have done very little sport climbing, but one day really stands out. i went climbing at upper dream canyon, and found that the bolts there are so close that you could easily aid up them. this is unacceptable. "
This comment gets to the heart of the debate. Why is it unacceptable? Unacceptable to who?
Closely spaced bolts are one way to equip a cliff, and in some areas this results in popular and well-traveled routes. Sure, it would get boring if every cliff was equipped this way, but I reject the idea that there is a God-given mandate to create run-out climbs. And the environmental argument for making routes sporty is a non-starter. The natural world is not affected by the choice between an 8-bolt route and a 12-bolt job. It's simply a matter of what style people prefer to climb.
I hate to bring grades into the debate, you will see when you move off those 10s and start climbing 12s and 13s that there are places where bolts set six to eight feet apart -- sometimes even closer -- are a reasonable choice. And even for moderate routes, if a crag like Dream proves popular with tightly set bolts, why would it be unacceptable for climbers to enjoy it?
Better than defacing a nice cliff with "bold" routes that make a "statement" about "ethics." and then languishes un-used because nobody cares to climb there.
Now THAT'S an example of wasting a natural resource, because it's neither a pristine natural area nor a legitimate recreational one. Such a crag is simply a monument to somebody's willingness to impose their ethical code on a group that largely doesn't agree with it.
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dbarandiaran
Jan 29, 2004, 7:27 PM
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In reply to: "i have done very little sport climbing, but one day really stands out. i went climbing at upper dream canyon, and found that the bolts there are so close that you could easily aid up them. this is unacceptable. " This comment gets to the heart of the debate. Why is it unacceptable? Unacceptable to who? Closely spaced bolts are one way to equip a cliff, and in some areas this results in popular and well-traveled routes. Sure, it would get boring if every cliff was equipped this way, but I reject the idea that there is a God-given mandate to create run-out climbs. And the environmental argument for making routes sporty is a non-starter. The natural world is not affected by the choice between an 8-bolt route and a 12-bolt job. It's simply a matter of what style people prefer to climb. I hate to bring grades into the debate, you will see when you move off those 10s and start climbing 12s and 13s that there are places where bolts set six to eight feet apart -- sometimes even closer -- are a reasonable choice. And even for moderate routes, if a crag like Dream proves popular with tightly set bolts, why would it be unacceptable for climbers to enjoy it?
ok i'm not advocating making runouts either, but at dream canyon, in some places the bolts were seriously like 4-5 feet apart. make a move, clip a bolt, make a move, clip a bolt... i think it is aesthetically unpleasing to see so many bolts, or to climb in this way. sure you could skip bolts, but they are still there to be seen when you are on the ground. that being said, im not going to boycott the place simply because of this, because that indeed would be worse, to have a bolted area that no one goes to.
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piton
Jan 29, 2004, 7:51 PM
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In reply to: Sport Climbing as an Extension Beyond Traditional Climbing
answer is false.
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mtnbkrxtrordnair
Jan 29, 2004, 10:31 PM
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In reply to: Alan Watts, Christian Griffith, Todd Skinner, and a few others were making waves with rappel bolting to access blank, steep sections that would only be climbed otherwise by madmen not long for our world.
Yea, I remember an article in Nat. Geog. where Skinner climbed some tower in Pakistan. They climbed it by another route, rap-bolted and inspected a route, then claimed a first ascent. That's good ethics.
Sport climbing as an extension beyond top-roping.
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okinawatricam
Jan 29, 2004, 10:42 PM
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Well I hear a lot about this "ground Up" attitude when it come to trad lines, but hard trad line do get cleaned from the top. This isn't neccessary in all areas, but unavoidable in others. Some areas lend themselves to Ground UP other don't.
When I repeat a route, rather bolted or gear, I don't ask myself how the route was equipt. I choose routes for the fun factor they offer. When I climb, I climb from the ground up, even if the route was establish on rappel.
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unabonger
Jan 30, 2004, 3:38 PM
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In reply to: Sport climbing as an extension beyond top-roping.
Yes, and so is every other genre. Except bouldering, which is an extension of beating off. Boulderers don't be insulted. Onanism is one of my fave persuits.
Hell, everything is an extension of something. Mountain biking, for example, is an extension of Big Wheeling. Vroom Vroom, ordnair.
The FlipFlopFlyorDieBonger
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unabonger
Jan 30, 2004, 3:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sport Climbing as an Extension Beyond Traditional Climbing answer is false.
Thanks for the contribution, but it wasn't a true false question. More of an essay type, see?
So, what should one do when they hit 12a and ran out of trad climbing? Seriously, piton. What did you do?
The SpinnerBonger
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roughster
Jan 30, 2004, 4:32 PM
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I see a lot of posteuring and posing about bolting/developing ground up, but strangely enough I see few others do it. In reality, I have never seen any other person bolt/develop on lead besides myself and my partners. Hell I see few other developers going top down.
So how many on this thread who say it is better have ACTUALLY done it? I bolted a route yesterday (Big Red Button 5.11c) from the ground up, how about you?
The bottom line is any development takes work. VERY FEW climbers are willing to lay out their own money, do the work, IN ANY STYLE, let alone the effort it takes to do it on lead.
My suggestion: Go develop some routes period before you armchair develop others. Be thankfull there are people out there doing your "dirty work" for you.
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piton
Jan 30, 2004, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Sport Climbing as an Extension Beyond Traditional Climbing answer is false. Thanks for the contribution, but it wasn't a true false question. More of an essay type, see? So, what should one do when they hit 12a and ran out of trad climbing? Seriously, piton. What did you do? The SpinnerBonger
go to the south platte get on Sphinx Crack, or wait go do romantic warrior in the needles.
did anyone mention how suzuki bolted a line then croft came along and did it with gear w/ot clipping any bolts.
so here's my little essay how about you go work on your endurance instead of your hangdogging from bolts.:roll:
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unabonger
Jan 30, 2004, 9:38 PM
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In reply to: So, what should one do when they hit 12a and ran out of trad climbing? Seriously, piton. What did you do? The SpinnerBonger
go to the south platte get on Sphinx Crack, or wait go do romantic warrior in the needles.
did anyone mention how suzuki bolted a line then croft came along and did it with gear w/ot clipping any bolts.
so here's my little essay how about you go work on your endurance instead of your hangdogging from bolts.:roll:
Well, one thing is true: If people bought your argument's validity to use such extreme outliers on the climbing scale (Sphinx, Croft) to argue against anyone hangdogging, there sure wouldn't be many climbers doing more than 11c. I mean, exactly how many 5.12 routes that went up "trad" style are there? I'm pretty sure from your statement above that you don't want bolts around, so let's do away with any route that has bolts, too, whether lead bolted or not.
piton, the world you wish for was never a possibility. The youngsters dusted past with thier hot colored lycra and you're left farting in the wind.
The SportoBonger
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piton
Jan 31, 2004, 1:42 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: So, what should one do when they hit 12a and ran out of trad climbing? Seriously, piton. What did you do? The SpinnerBonger go to the south platte get on Sphinx Crack, or wait go do romantic warrior in the needles. did anyone mention how suzuki bolted a line then croft came along and did it with gear w/ot clipping any bolts. so here's my little essay how about you go work on your endurance instead of your hangdogging from bolts.:roll:
Well, one thing is true: If people bought your argument's validity to use such extreme outliers on the climbing scale (Sphinx, Croft) to argue against anyone hangdogging, there sure wouldn't be many climbers doing more than 11c. I mean, exactly how many 5.12 routes that went up "trad" style are there? I'm pretty sure from your statement above that you don't want bolts around, so let's do away with any route that has bolts, too, whether lead bolted or not.
piton, the world you wish for was never a possibility. The youngsters dusted past with thier hot colored lycra and you're left farting in the wind.
The SportoBonger
how about this i climb in my style and you climb in yours. we all have different walks of life.. depending on your training maybe by climbing sport will help you progress faster, but i find it hardly as an extension of trad climbing. if you considor 32 being old than i guess i am an old trad fart and i will be farting when i hang on a crux hold while placeing a stopper. as far as 12 that go up on trad i would say there are to many to count. and yes unubonger i'm well aware that my perfect little world doesn't exist. if it did i would be traveling to some distant cliff without bolts and not posting on this pointless thread.
the above climb i mentioned was Van belle O Drome 5.13c 1st ascent w/ bolts Hidetaka Suzuki; 2nd ascent Peter Croft w/out the bolts. surely this climb shows how sport is an extension of trad.
well whatever you do just have fun :)
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