Ummm... Jay,



And



Are diametrically opposed to each other, yet you stated both in the same thread.

Even a hangdog is a free ascent, as it was freeclimbed. I think you should say it is not a "clean" ascent. If a climber does all moves free on a route, he has climbed it free. If a climber climbs all moves free without weighting the rope, then it is a clean free ascent. Do you agree with that statement ???

There is a difference bewtween insulting a climb and yelling take at every bolt/piece, and doing almost all the climb and falling just once just before getting to the anchors/belay/end. Both are considered "hangdogs", but still a bit different in terms of accomplishment wouldn't ya say. :wink:

I think you care too much about what others are climbing or saying they are climbing.

The definition of free climbing a route is not doing each move free. It's doing all the moves free without falling or resting on the rope.

Edit: Incidentally, I don't know why this thread has been moved into Community. It's turned into a substantive discussion about the definition of "free climbing." Probably should be in General, at least this part of it should be.

But if you hung, you have used the gear.

true, but getting a clean redpoint on a hard route is a less significant accomplishment than onsighting it , so co-mingling redpointing ascents and onsights in the same ranking is inappropriate.

get it?

like jt was quick to rule out top ropeing as a viable style of ascent to record.

make the grade 5.16 on the theoreticial route were discusing and you can see how important hangdoging is to redpointing...

Read the previous page. :roll:

As far as aid or free goes, could it be neither? ;) You're not ascending using gear, and you're not ascending without resting on gear...

That is an an idiotic statement, since the definition of redpointing implies that you've hangdogged the route (or, less commonly at the higher levels, top roped it).

-Jay

how is this even an argument? this is even simpler than the Scopes Monkey Trial or Bush vs. Kerry--hangdogging is not sending.

Even a hangdog is a free ascent, as it was freeclimbed. I think you should say it is not a "clean" ascent. If a climber does all moves free on a route, he has climbed it free. If a climber climbs all moves free without weighting the rope, then it is a clean free ascent. Do you agree with that statement ???

Agreed Jay... But it belongs in S+Q, as the original query was asking about the Asents Feature of the RDB, and the hair splitters took it all over the place.

I'll just ask everyone to stop bashing the new climbers, as that was the reason why this was moved. And Jay, you don't have to be so abrasive... Practice your people skills brutha.

Agreed Jay... But it belongs in S+Q, as the original query was asking about the Asents Feature of the RDB, and the hair splitters took it all over the place.

I'll just ask everyone to stop bashing the new climbers, as that was the reason why this was moved. And Jay, you don't have to be so abrasive... Practice your people skills brutha. :wink:

No it doesn't It simply mean you have tried the route and failed, Not that you hangdogged it.

Redpoint - n/vb. a clean ascent with no falls, placing protection while climbing.

No where in that does it say you had to have hangdogged the route or even reached the anchors at all.

Agreed Jay... But it belongs in S+Q, as the original query was asking about the Asents Feature of the RDB, and the hair splitters took it all over the place.

It's nothing to be ashamed of, you're right. My point is that it's basically nothing; that is, it's not a recognized successful ascent of any kind. It's not a free ascent, nor is it a successful ascent of an aid route. It's never been considered an end in itself.


Yes, but hopefully it's an ascent of an established aid line. Otherwise, it's basically nothing. Why not just prop a ladder up against the wall and all happy that you "ascended" it all the way to the top.


Adam, how much can we dumb down the sport? Hangdogging has never been considered an accomplishment of any significance. I've hangdogged more than most people on the site, but I've never considered it anything more than what I wrote above; it's rehearsal, a way to learn and improve your climbing. But a "hangdog ascent" has never been considered any sort of successful ascent. And if mrme thinks it is than he has missed the whole point of free climbing.

On some of my harder projects I was pretty happy the first time I hangdogged to the anchors because it meant that I could do all the moves free. But I never considered it any sort of success; quite the contrary, it was just the beginning of the project. However, mrme, which is who we've been arguing with before people started to take our comments out of context, mistakenly believes such an "ascent" to be a "free ascent." It is that belief that which I was referring to when I said he'd missed the point of the sport; that is, believing that handogging was the equivalent of a successful free ascent.

-Jay

There is no contradiction. The definition of free climbing a route is not doing each move free. It's doing all the moves free without falling or resting on the rope. Most modern routes are rated for the overall difficulty of the route. I know a 12d route here in Socal that has no single move on it harder than 11c. It also has no single move on it easier than 11b, and this goes on for 90 feet. So, although any 11c climber could do each move and get to the top if he could take enough hangs, it takes 12d endurance to free climb the route, not just the individual moves.


No, I don't, and if you read the entire thread, you'll see that not a single experienced climber who has posted -- inlcuding Ambler, Curt, Louie Anderson, jv, and Ronnie Miller -- agrees with you. A hangdog is not a free ascent. Once you've fallen or rested on the rope you have failed to free climb the route. You've relied on the gear. At best you've got an A0 ascent. The phrase you propose, "clean free ascent," is redundant. Free climbing implies that you've gotten the route "clean" (ie, without falling or hanging).


That's like saying it's a bigger accomplishent to fail an exam by 1 point than it is to fail it by 50 points. Either way, you haven't passed the exam.

Edit: Incidentally, I don't know why this thread has been moved into Community. It's turned into a substantive discussion about the definition of "free climbing." Probably should be in General, at least this part of it should be.

-Jay

Maybe you'll believe Lynn Hill. The following quote is from her 1994 article in the American Alpine Journal about free climbing the Nose:

"Despite intense heat, I was eventually able to climb this pitch with only one fall and felt confident that it would be possible to free climb it under cooler conditions."

Above, she clearly distinguishes between an ascent with one fall and a free climb.

If you still want to claim that a hangdogging is free climbing, I would suggest that you take it up with Lynn Hill. She'll be happy to know that she free climbed the Nose on an earlier attempt.

-Jay

she did but she wanted to lead every picth without falling and she wouldn't be happy untill she did that for herself. it has nothing to do with what one word means another thats why they have dictionarys.

if i remember right i think it was peter croft or someone who climb the astroman or something like that. he free solod without a rope or gear and there was a sling hanging down in the middle of the crux. he decided to go back and solo it agian without the sling hanging down to truly free solo it. did he truely free solo it the first time he climbed it without gear?