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pornstarr
Nov 3, 2005, 12:29 AM
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I'd say that since many of the concepts are somewhat hard to understand (for some) in text form, an improvement on the photos (color perhaps) and the critiques section would be of great help to many (Sugarbritches, for example, who cannot read ;) ).
I noticed on a few occasions (in the previous books) that a nut was called hex, a hex a cam and so forth (not that it can't be figgered out with a little cipherin'), but it can be a bit more confusing.
Visualization via pictures is a strong tool for many. Beef it up.
....and by the way, the books are great as they stand, but I'm happy to hear that you will be updating.
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wolfeman
Nov 3, 2005, 2:31 AM
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On a recent ascent of a new climb where we had to leave gear on a 13-rappel descent, my partner and I came up with a system for leaving minimal gear and still provide some insurance we wouldn't perish on the rappels.
This may be old news, but neither of us had heard of it.
We would place two good pieces, equalized, and then add a third (sometimes fourth) BOMBER piece. This piece would be just barely loose enough to not be a part of the anchor.Then the heavier of the two climbers would rappel first. If the anchor held (which it always did), the 2nd, lighter climber would remove the secondary pieces and rap off of the anchor with some level of security.
There was some risk of shock-loading the back-up piece(s), but they were generally cams backing up stoppers and/or pins, so we felt fairly safe, and didn't leave any cams on the route.
Erik
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climbingnurse
Nov 3, 2005, 3:31 AM
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2 things I've struggled to get across to people when teaching anchor construction:
-Think about swing. Most of the teaching I did was for setting up TR anchors using trees and boulders atop a climb. They would usually be made of two objects brought together to form a 'powerpoint'. It was difficult to get them to think about the consequences of one piece failing and where the other piece might swing to. i.e. will it result in a significant drop. This is sort of like 'non-extending', but a little different to get into people's heads.
-Redundancy doesn't have to mean two gigantic boulders, one will do nicely. In the interest of time, I'd always try to emphasize that if there was a gigantic boulder that they were planning to sling as one part of their anchor, then they probably don't need to use the tree that's 20' back from the cliff too. I'd always say 'think about what would happen if this boulder failed.' And if the answer was 'both climber and belayer will be smooshed', then just wrap that thing twice.
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jabtocrag
Nov 3, 2005, 3:33 AM
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John...include as many clear visuals as possible with this one. I remember wishing there were more in the originals.
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billl7
Nov 3, 2005, 3:44 AM
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In reply to: IME, theory can point the way, but if we were left to construct anchors that were theoretically perfect we'd rarely get past the first pitch. That leads to the next question: What does secure mean? Or more importantly, what should it mean.
A little personal background: I started trad leading about six months ago. I read both your anchor books beforehand and started reading them again about a week ago.
From a beginner's perspective, I would encourage you to continue avoiding a parade of anchor pictures that are "correct" - and instead remain more with the analysis of why an anchor would be bad in this or that application and - just in words - what might be done to correct it. It left me feeling like I had enough info to typically make a bombproof anchor even if it took me too long to build (let efficiency come with experience) and it really was up to me to evaluate whether it was secure as should be the case; seems like a healthy view to me. It also left me feeling like I needed to have someone experienced looking at my hand-i-work - something a book can't replace of course. Just one person's view.
Ah, and another yes-vote here for pictures with better resolution to make it easier for the reader to play the game: without reading ahead, can I i) pick out what is wrong with this anchor or ii) identify what application I would not trust to it (e.g., leader fall, TR)?
Keep up the good work!
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tradrenn
Nov 3, 2005, 4:08 AM
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In reply to: One common anchor term that I think needs to be re-addressed somewhat better is the concept of "redundancy" in anchors. From reading (and contributing to) various anchor threads here at RC.com, it appears to me that the term is not well understood. To many, redundancy seems to mean putting a bunch of pieces into the construction of the anchor. Curt
I will second that.
( especially for people that English is as a second language )
My Polish-English dictionary doesn't say much.
8^)
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bdplayer
Nov 3, 2005, 4:56 AM
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I agree with the posts concerning more pictures. However, line drawings, as are used in many of the How to Climb (c) series books present a distinctly clear example that is almost always easier to understand. IMHO, a blend of photos and line drawings is the best route for illustrating, so may I suggest photos for giving an idea of how things will look once constructed, and line drawings to teach the actual construction and placement?
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jliebgott
Nov 3, 2005, 6:12 AM
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I would love to see sections that are tad more advanced than just a rehash of the 3 piece equalized in the next anchor book.
ideas:
* Using a haul bag as a dynamic belay
* Hauling off one bolt (backed up) - seems much more common these days.
* belaying 2nd(s) w/ auto locking device off anchor
* clean aid placements - what will stick?
* drilling - when, what and why (hello rivet)
* drop test results - love to see when your anchors fail... I know duece did this a while back w/ bolts, I found it really good reading.
* trusting tat - how strong is that bleached out webbing, head or bent ass fixed piece?
jason liebgott
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healyje
Nov 3, 2005, 8:02 AM
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Free and aid rope solo anchoring and rebelaying would make a good advanced topic...
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pk
Nov 3, 2005, 8:23 AM
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In reply to: Free and aid rope solo anchoring and rebelaying would make a good advanced topic...
I like this and there is very little written literature about both free and aid solo anchors ( both pretty similar ). The only concern that comes to mind is this is a dangerous bit of information to have available to a beginning climber. With that in mind I guess you could also debate the relevance in showing placements ie. freedom of the hills etc.
I think it's touchy ground with describing / diagramming or even showing a picture of these types of anchors. I wouldn't feel comfortable telling someone how to setup a roped solo aid anchor, attaching and hauling a pig etc without actually showing them.
I'd like to see it in an advanced aid or advanced trad anchor book before I would like to see it tried to be wrapped up in 5 to 10 pages in an anchor book that has wrapped up John's books. I don't think it belongs in a book that ranges from your 2 bolt sport climb anchor to a solo aid anchor.
P.K.
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philbox
Moderator
Nov 3, 2005, 9:04 AM
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To all, please feel free to write to John with your input. Do write up paragraphs for possible inclusion in his book. If you have a great anchor idea or any other pertinent text then certainly write it up as though it were going in his book. If it is used then you will most certainly get at least attribution.
If you don`t like the old grainy photos then submit your own with exactly the sort of thing you wish to see demonstrated. This is a chance for the whole of the climbing community to make a difference. This book will be around for the next twenty years so let`s make it a beauty.
As far as the very technical aid anchors goes I reckon that those techniques could still be submitted but I agree that perhaps that subject should be included in its own book or maybe it`s own chapter with significant disclaimers. Of course that is not my call to make, just my personal opinion.
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pk
Nov 3, 2005, 9:13 AM
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Just out of curiosity Phil are you working with John on this book or just enthusiastic about getting more material, or posting updates as John does not get on here much?
I'm glad this thread has started I think some people on this site can really give some great advice/pics. It's not about your motives just wondering what your involvement is as you "seem" to be.
P.K.
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piton
Nov 3, 2005, 1:42 PM
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now this isn't the anchor but more placements.
i think the most common mistake with new climbers that the see a pro placement and just put a marginal piece of gear when they can take the time and actually get a bomber piece of gear. being able to work in gear. ex. being able to spot good stopper placements that's not obvious. or placing a cam and seeing which way it sits better by placing the lobes on both sides.
oppostion no extension
placing 1 potato or 2 potato
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microbarn
Nov 3, 2005, 1:43 PM
Post #115 of 187
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In reply to: I agree with the posts concerning more pictures. However, line drawings, as are used in many of the How to Climb (c) series books present a distinctly clear example that is almost always easier to understand. IMHO, a blend of photos and line drawings is the best route for illustrating, so may I suggest photos for giving an idea of how things will look once constructed, and line drawings to teach the actual construction and placement?
I like this idea. Break things up. Teach the placements in one section. Teach the ideal angles in another. Then complete with all the complexities that pop up in real life.
It has been a while since I read the books, but I didn't remember how to analyze trees when I came out with other leaders. The number of people using one tree for an anchor is astounding. If it isn't already mentioned, I would like to see them addressed a good bit.
Also, I hear a lot about not placing gear in the same feature. I don't remember if this was addressed, but I would like to hear your opinion.
I apologize, but I don't have a book here that I can check these things in. I only have my foggy memory.
I also like the idea of breaking up the book with a few good anchors.
I did get a lot more out of the pictures than the text.
I really like the idea of the alternate systems. However, I think if you do more than mention these other systems, it would confuse a beginner. Possibly, you could explain them, but encourage only one system. The reader can come back after setting up a few anchors to start incorporating the other checks on their own.
I don't have any pictures of anchors. However, I would be willing to try to take some picutres. Let's see what I can get into this weekend. Unfortunately, I don't have much of a rack to build many anchors.
To help illustrate an over designed anchor. Make a few. Then say any one of ___ pieces could be removed and this would be a good anchor.
Hopefully my memory isn't too foggy and some of these comments were helpful.
Dan
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fitzontherocks
Nov 3, 2005, 3:07 PM
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Great books. I've bought copies for myself and friends, as gifts. You're a big man for asking for input, John. And here's mine. Better, sharper pix (I know this has already been mentioned). And better editing. I'm a writer, so clear writing is important to me, and sometimes the descriptions in the books get a little garbled. Let a writer take a look at it after your draft it. And keep up the good work!
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littlefingers
Nov 3, 2005, 4:13 PM
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Great book. When first getting into trad, a friend lent me the book on anchors, and it was my night reading for a while. My one suggestion would be to either have clearer pictures, or if there are printing quality constraints (cost constraints), use line diagrams with or instead of pictures. There must be a technical illustrator out there in the climbing community who would be interested in working on a John Long book. I'm a graphic designer with some experience doing technical illustrations, and know I would be interested :)
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el_jerko
Nov 3, 2005, 5:50 PM
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I taught myself to build top rope anchors, and then to trad climb with no other information than what was contained in these books. I didn’t think much of it at the time, but in hindsight I am glad they covered the subject so well.
What I found to be most valuable in those early learning stages was the anchor evaluation photos. Once I figured out the format I would look at the pictures and try and figure out what was good and bad about the pictured piece or anchor. I would then read the text to see how my evaluation compared to this J. Long guys.
This kind of evaluation was easy to transfer to climbing, and to this day after I build an anchor I sit back and evaluate it; is it redundant? Which way is the pull coming from? etc. I say if something works, stick with it and the original for format works. The only improvement I can think of is to have more of it.
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vivalargo
Nov 3, 2005, 6:12 PM
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Kinly keep those comments coming, folks. The web is an invaluable resource in getting feedback, an impossibility during the first run of the anchor books. Also, what makes the text practical is also invaluable.
The photo question is a tricky one. Getting sharp images of arious nuts lodged in various cracks requires a multi-flash (or F50 light) and then really high end printing, lest the images gt too dark or blurry. We're planning on going with some more illustrations on this one and I'll try and get one of you guys to help out in that regards.
I hear you on getting some more "bomber" anchors.
Also, remember that I'm basically a prose writer, not a tech writer. I know the subject but it's some really heavy lifting trying to cogently describe--in plain English--some of those anchor set ups. I'm not sure I understood some of the descriptions, and I wrote them. I'll keep this in mind this time around.
JL
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wjca
Nov 3, 2005, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: It's a bit of nitpicking designed to cast doubt on a two-piece anchor- though, in light of the direction this thread is heading, I'd admit I would use the two-nut anchor without a second thought if nothing better came along.
:shock:
This jumped right off the screen at me. When climbing (and particularly while building an anchor) I don't do anything without at least a second thought.
John, my submission for your new book is more of a general rule of thumb. You can use it as your own.
"When building any anchor, everything (whether it be a three foot thick tree or a shiny new bolt) deserves at least a second thought."
Chris
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outdoorsie
Nov 3, 2005, 7:07 PM
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Hi John,
I also used your anchor books as an invaluable resource in demistifying some of the thought processes that go into building anchors. Besides that, I thought they were really entertaining to read!
Just a few suggestions for what I'd like to see in a future work.
1. Vector diagrams. Yep, I'm a physicist too (though, still "in training" :-) ), and when I place any piece of pro or build any anchor, I'm imagining little arrows and how they change based on load direction, different rope directions, and anything else that might affect it. It seems to me, this is harder for some people to visualize, and good diagrams can make a big difference.
2. Along the same lines as above, I think it's reasonable to at least mention something about back-clipping and how and why it's dangerous. Most of the pro placed on sport climbs is just quick-draws, and soo many sport climbers do not think about the direction of the gate in relation to the direction of the rope as they are climbing.
3. I'm sure you're planning on doing this, but I think it's not a bad idea to mention the type of trad climbing "scenario" that each anchor is best for. I remember reading your books and seeing these anchors tied entirely by the rope evaluated as good because they were "simple". But if one climber is leading all the pitches, and the other seconds all the pitches, this is a very bad anchor to set up. Maybe it's obvious, but I think this is an important caviat.
I like the idea of trying to get some good pictures of anchors... I think this should be the next Photo Assignment in the photog forum!! "Learn to use your flash in extreme conditions by taking great pictures of pro."
Kate
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jabtocrag
Nov 3, 2005, 7:21 PM
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I was thinking that these books are especially useful to those with little or no experience at anchor building, so once you have a rough draft with which you're comfortable, it may be helpful to have a group of beginners evaluate your work. What makes sense to them...what doesn't....and if you agree, adjust to the critique.
And I think someone mentioned this, but a beefy advanced anchor building section might be cool!!
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microbarn
Nov 3, 2005, 7:39 PM
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In reply to: I was thinking that these books are especially useful to those with little or no experience at anchor building, so once you have a rough draft with which you're comfortable, it may be helpful to have a group of beginners evaluate your work. What makes sense to them...what doesn't....and if you agree, adjust to the critique.
That is exactly what he is doing. He let a world's worth of beginners read the first draft (that was published). Now he is taking critiques for the second draft or edition.
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highangle
Nov 3, 2005, 7:43 PM
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Outdoorsie wrote: In reply to: 1. Vector diagrams. Yep, I'm a physicist too (though, still "in training" ), and when I place any piece of pro or build any anchor, I'm imagining little arrows and how they change based on load direction, different rope directions, and anything else that might affect it. It seems to me, this is harder for some people to visualize, and good diagrams can make a big difference
I would agree. It is very hard for beginners to visualize the direction of pull from the photos, and showing a couple of pics with force diagrams would be helpful.
Also, one pic showing the anchor, and then another with the vector diagram overlaying the picture would be useful, or even just a separate diagram. The reader could then get a clear view of the "real world" but then relate it into direction of pull, predicted fall direction and so forth in a clear manner. Additional diagrams could show the affect of moving pro/rope/extensions, etc. without taking up as much space as an additional photo would.
One of the prior posters (too lazy to find) suggested that there be some anchors without cons. I know I have never built an anchor that was absolutely perfect. "Good enough" for sure. Best for the given situation, yes. But showing where every anchor's potential weakness, even if it can't be corrected in the existing context, shows to the reader that the factors envolved in building an anchor are innumerable and it is all about critical thinking and using the toolkit you have.
Hoorah for JL - keep up the good work. My kids are even now devouring the early editions.
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asioux70
Nov 3, 2005, 7:57 PM
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I first read the climbing anchors book over eight years ago, and then read climbing more anchors. i still pull out the books to just read especially when I haven't been climbing in awhile just to keep it fresh in my head. I have also gave the climbing anchors book as a gift. I always recommend those books to people that I come across that have the desire to climb. Can't wait to for another anchor book by John.
A.F (Pasadena)
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John Long anchors book call for input
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