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dirtineye
Jan 10, 2006, 10:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I can't beleive I got suckered into this stupid thread, but WHY do sport climbers seem to think that there are no overhanging, desperate trad climbs of great difficulty? For the exact same reason trad climbers seem to think all sport climbs are safe outdoor gyms with bolts every 5 feet. ie. They don't. They're either ignorant or they're trolling. That is pretty much the extent of it, no middle ground that doesn't include a dose of stupidity. But it is clear from this thread that many young tradsters don't even know what it means. Trad that is. Is it common place in your neck of the woods for the average trad climber to pursue overhanging leads of great difficulty? Suire is not the case in my experience. DMT
Maybe not the average trad climber, but for some I climb with regularly, yes it is.
There's a crazy man in Tennessee who seems to think the harder the trad climbing, the better it is.
I've not seen a sport climb with bolts every 5 feet. Some of my best climbing friends are sport bolters/climbers! They can't help the lack of good taste. Nah, there are some really good sport routes. I'll even admit to climbing a few.
Sport just does not compare to trad for the adventure reason.
You can't walk up to an unclimbed, unlknown wall and have an adventure in sport climbing. In trad, you can.
Once you know the thing can be climbed, the adventure is over. That's the appeal of first ascents. YOU DON'T KNOW if you (or anyone) can get to the top.
Sport can be fun, it can be hard, it can be a challenge, but it can't really be an adventure into the unknown, cause that go-where-no-one-has-gone-before thing is missing.
OF course that is also missing from trad routes in guide books.
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dirtineye
Jan 10, 2006, 10:29 PM
Post #102 of 135
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In reply to: Because bouldering sucks... . Jay
Does not!
Curt will probably wash your mouth out with Scotch for that.
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dirtineye
Jan 10, 2006, 11:01 PM
Post #103 of 135
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In reply to: In reply to: Is it common place in your neck of the woods for the average trad climber to pursue overhanging leads of great difficulty? Overhanging with poison ivy -- yes! Right, Dirtineye? :D JL
The one you are thinking about is Machete Crack, which is the true continuation of the stupid Rat Trap, put up by Corbett. COrbet got to the HUGE mass of PI, (2 inch thick roots, embedded in the crack, for 30 feet) and wussed out, traversing way left.
Shannon went at the PI with my brother's machete, and after only 2 hours, he had a nice 5.7. And, we were both covered in PI from head to toe.
Note to serious PI thrashers: IF you are going to deal with fresh live growing PI, it is not enough to con your partner into leading and digging/pulling/hacking out all the PI. YOU must be FAR away, cause all tha crap that rains down, that looks like innocent dirt, is actually full of PI oil. I swear the air was filled with a mist of PI oil. 30 feet from the base is not far enough.
The only consolation is, he got it a lot worse than I did, but we were both covered from head to toe.
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dingus
Jan 10, 2006, 11:24 PM
Post #104 of 135
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In reply to: Maybe not the average trad climber, but for some I climb with regularly, yes it is.
My point... it IS common for the average sport climber to take on difficult overhanging routes. That was really my main point with the question. Your counter point was entirely valid, but I still think J's (and many others) generalization is mostly accurate. A climber really doesn't want to be taking a lot of trad 5.8 falls... I'm still recovering from my last one... 18 months ago, lol.
In reply to: There's a crazy man in Tennessee who seems to think the harder the trad climbing, the better it is.
Right on. The man who's name shall not be mentioned is hardly average, as a man or as a trad climber. You play his card, I play Kalcario; neither is representative of anyone but himself (and a handful of others). Rank and file sport climbers routinely take on overhanging routes. Rank and file traddies do not.
In reply to: Sport just does not compare to trad for the adventure reason. You can't walk up to an unclimbed, unlknown wall and have an adventure in sport climbing. In trad, you can. Once you know the thing can be climbed, the adventure is over. That's the appeal of first ascents. YOU DON'T KNOW if you (or anyone) can get to the top.
I hear you dirt. I understand the point. Been plenty of days when I would have agreed with you 100%. But see, it ruffles my short hairs when you start using the word 'you' (referring to me) to describe YOUR motives for climbing. Me? I get plenty of adventure out of sport climbing. Seriously, doubt haunts my every waking moment in the climbing world. Just because I sent once, or a dozen times, doesn't mean I send today, or ever again for that matter.
In reply to: Sport can be fun, it can be hard, it can be a challenge, but it can't really be an adventure into the unknown, cause that go-where-no-one-has-gone-before thing is missing.
I guess those bolts just grow out of the rock.
In reply to: OF course that is also missing from trad routes in guide books.
Most of the lofty ideals of trad are beyond the reach of most self professed trad climbers, imo. We rely on that guidebook too much. If tradding really IS all about adventure and first ascents, there are far, far fewer trad climbers than even I thought! (and I hold the belief that many who claim to be traditional climbers are not, and would be horrified to climb one of Higgins idealized routes)
Most of us like a mix, and we're as much about surviving our passion and having some fun as we are feeding the rat and having a pure adventure. I'm ok with that.
But feeding the rat is good too bro, don't get me wrong.
Live and let die, dah DAH!!!!
DMT
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caughtinside
Jan 10, 2006, 11:28 PM
Post #105 of 135
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You sent once, dingus? Nice going!
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saxfiend
Jan 10, 2006, 11:38 PM
Post #106 of 135
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In reply to: Shannon went at the PI with my brother's machete, and after only 2 hours, he had a nice 5.7. And, we were both covered in PI from head to toe.
JL
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soulsurfer
Jan 10, 2006, 11:41 PM
Post #107 of 135
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climbsomething wrote:
Tell us more, o oracle!
You Zonies crack me up :lol:
You and Curt are very quick to the draw.
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dingus
Jan 10, 2006, 11:59 PM
Post #109 of 135
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In reply to: You sent once, dingus? Nice going!
It was a GOOD day, what can I say?
DMT
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emilykristina
Jan 11, 2006, 1:01 AM
Post #110 of 135
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'The heart of the matter is accepting complete responibiliy for yourself. You, and only you, are responsible in real time for your own protection and safety on a climb."
Yeah, it is all you. I love finishing then looking from the summit and knowing it was because of me... not because I had help or it was easy or it is something that just anyone can do. Trad is what climbing is all about. You have to know the rock and know your gear and facilitate the compilation of a mosaic of God made material and man made tools that results in a sublime euphoric experience and demonstration of poetry incarnate.
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thegreytradster
Jan 11, 2006, 2:27 AM
Post #111 of 135
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Why?
Because sport climbs don't go anywhere.
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dirtineye
Jan 11, 2006, 2:36 AM
Post #112 of 135
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In reply to: In reply to: Maybe not the average trad climber, but for some I climb with regularly, yes it is. My point... it IS common for the average sport climber to take on difficult overhanging routes. That was really my main point with the question. Your counter point was entirely valid, but I still think J's (and many others) generalization is mostly accurate. A climber really doesn't want to be taking a lot of trad 5.8 falls... I'm still recovering from my last one... 18 months ago, lol.
I hate that you got hurt, but you are a big boy. If you get on something that can hurt you, OK. BUT, I don't see that people have to climb 5.8 that is dangerous. There's a butt-load of pics of Happiegrrrl (daring 5.5 leader)on a perfect-for-falling 5.7 in my photos. ROUTE SELECTION is something beginners should pay more attention to, and not by grade, but by pro-ability and fall consequences.
Bsically, I'm saying, screw shitty climbs, do the good ones, in terms of pro and fall consequences, til you know what you are doing. But htat comment falls on deaf ears most of the time.
In reply to: In reply to: There's a crazy man in Tennessee who seems to think the harder the trad climbing, the better it is. Right on. The man who's name shall not be mentioned is hardly average, as a man or as a trad climber. You play his card, I play Kalcario; neither is representative of anyone but himself (and a handful of others). Rank and file sport climbers routinely take on overhanging routes. Rank and file traddies do not.
It's not who you think, although you are right, the one you mean is not average. BUT, he knows the guy I'm talking about, and that guy is not average either. Pick up a copy of the new DCA for Tennessee and catch the name on a lot of the BSF stuff. You should know that there are a lot of people who are almost as skilled as he-who-shall-not-be-named. There's a guy from atlanta who you never heard of, been putting up routes like crazy in the BSF, on hard stuff. Southern sandstone is steep if you want it to be.
In reply to: In reply to: Sport just does not compare to trad for the adventure reason. You can't walk up to an unclimbed, unlknown wall and have an adventure in sport climbing. In trad, you can. Once you know the thing can be climbed, the adventure is over. That's the appeal of first ascents. YOU DON'T KNOW if you (or anyone) can get to the top. I hear you dirt. I understand the point. Been plenty of days when I would have agreed with you 100%. But see, it ruffles my short hairs when you start using the word 'you' (referring to me) to describe YOUR motives for climbing. Me? I get plenty of adventure out of sport climbing. Seriously, doubt haunts my every waking moment in the climbing world. Just because I sent once, or a dozen times, doesn't mean I send today, or ever again for that matter.
I was using "you" in the general sense. You can substitute "one" if you like.
In reply to: In reply to: Sport can be fun, it can be hard, it can be a challenge, but it can't really be an adventure into the unknown, cause that go-where-no-one-has-gone-before thing is missing. I guess those bolts just grow out of the rock.
Naw, sport rappelers put em there, silly rabbit.
In reply to: In reply to: OF course that is also missing from trad routes in guide books. Most of the lofty ideals of trad are beyond the reach of most self professed trad climbers, imo. We rely on that guidebook too much. If tradding really IS all about adventure and first ascents, there are far, far fewer trad climbers than even I thought! (and I hold the belief that many who claim to be traditional climbers are not, and would be horrified to climb one of Higgins idealized routes) Most of us like a mix, and we're as much about surviving our passion and having some fun as we are feeding the rat and having a pure adventure. I'm ok with that. But feeding the rat is good too bro, don't get me wrong. Live and let die, dah DAH!!!! DMT
I was speaking about my personal preferences on the adventure thing. Don't get me wrong, I climb certain routes over again, I have a bouldering circuit, and I even (gasp) sport climb once in a while. I'd even try mountaineering if I were rich and didn't wimp out below 40 degrees, LOL!
I don't have a rat to feed, but I do have a cat, does that count?
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dirtineye
Jan 11, 2006, 2:41 AM
Post #113 of 135
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In reply to: In reply to: Shannon went at the PI with my brother's machete, and after only 2 hours, he had a nice 5.7. And, we were both covered in PI from head to toe. Heh heh, I want to check out those routes next time I'm at LW. And I still want to be in on a FA with you and/or Stegg someday, even if it does involve poison ivy! :P JL
THere's a whole section of PI covered stuff you can work on. I think the last PI debacle has cured us for a while. I'll belay... from a distance.
BTW, the top of Machete crack could use a good weeding... No discretion needed, everything around the belay tree is PI.
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cracklover
Jan 11, 2006, 4:38 AM
Post #114 of 135
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In reply to: COrbet got to the HUGE mass of PI, (2 inch thick roots, embedded in the crack, for 30 feet) and wussed out, traversing way left. Shannon went at the PI with my brother's machete, and after only 2 hours, he had a nice 5.7. And, we were both covered in PI from head to toe. Note to serious PI thrashers: IF you are going to deal with fresh live growing PI, it is not enough to con your partner into leading and digging/pulling/hacking out all the PI. YOU must be FAR away, cause all tha crap that rains down, that looks like innocent dirt, is actually full of PI oil. I swear the air was filled with a mist of PI oil. 30 feet from the base is not far enough. The only consolation is, he got it a lot worse than I did, but we were both covered from head to toe.
Fucking hell, live and let DirtInEye. You get my vote. For what? I don't know. Some hideous honor no-one in their right mind would want.
By the way - your example of your pics of HappieGrrrl on fairly fall-safe, moderate leads - that boils down to the same issue again: not everyone lives close to the Gunks.
But y'know, Kalcario's answer of why climb trad: "look up at El Cap," makes me think of a parallel answer: look in the eyes of a beginning leader who's just done pitch three of Yum Yum Yab Yum. It's 5.3, barely over 200' from the ground, you could sew it up almost as much as an IC splitter, and yet the feeling of adventure you'll see in that new leader's eye is absolutely priceless.
GO
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dirtineye
Jan 11, 2006, 7:08 AM
Post #115 of 135
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In reply to: In reply to: COrbet got to the HUGE mass of PI, (2 inch thick roots, embedded in the crack, for 30 feet) and wussed out, traversing way left. Shannon went at the PI with my brother's machete, and after only 2 hours, he had a nice 5.7. And, we were both covered in PI from head to toe. Note to serious PI thrashers: IF you are going to deal with fresh live growing PI, it is not enough to con your partner into leading and digging/pulling/hacking out all the PI. YOU must be FAR away, cause all tha crap that rains down, that looks like innocent dirt, is actually full of PI oil. I swear the air was filled with a mist of PI oil. 30 feet from the base is not far enough. The only consolation is, he got it a lot worse than I did, but we were both covered from head to toe. f---ing hell, live and let DirtInEye. You get my vote. For what? I don't know. Some hideous honor no-one in their right mind would want. By the way - your example of your pics of HappieGrrrl on fairly fall-safe, moderate leads - that boils down to the same issue again: not everyone lives close to the Gunks. GO
Those pics of Happiegrrrl were taken in Alabama. Tennessee and Georgia also have a lot of good 5.7 and 5.8 climbs.
After visiting the Gunks, there is no way I would leave this area, with its year round climbing, for that over-hyped choss pile. Hell, there's not even any poison ivy growing on the cliff at the gunks.
I do wish that gear shop were down here though.
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cracklover
Jan 11, 2006, 1:37 PM
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I have to admit, I didn't actuall look at any photos before I "penned" my response. I guess that would have been smarter, eh?
Hm, if it's that good, I'll have to check it out some day. Save a little poison ivy for me, would ya?
GO
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cracklover
Jan 11, 2006, 1:41 PM
Post #117 of 135
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Oh, and by the way, you can climb year-round at the Gunks. February tends to get a little chilly, though.
GO
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snakehuntergirl
Jan 11, 2006, 2:45 PM
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I enjoy being in high places, whether it be on the roof of a high-rise building, riding on a tall rollercoaster, going up the Eiffel Tower or flying in planes. From early childhood I would climb up just about everything and try to get as high as I could. It made me feel safe and powerful when I was on the very top of the monkey bars, on roofs, hiding out on hills, sitting high on a tree branch and even on the roof of my dad's van. I fell in love with the incredible views I'd get when I was up high. I needed to see more of what was around me.
Before I knew anything about technical rock climbing, I was a pretty adventurous hiker/scrambler in Red Rock. I would see climbers high up on beautiful routes/lines in the canyons and was always curious of how high they would end up and what they would see and experience. I loved to hear their echoing calls, and it was like a game for me to try to spot them. I would listen for the clanking of their gear and look for the ropes. I was somewhat jealous that they were higher than me. I was getting tired of hours and hours of crawling through brush, scrambling up rotten rock, being covered in ticks, just to get a good view. Those climbers made getting high look so easy and quick and they had the best seat in the house! .I craved to be up where they were and after almost eating it quite a few times when scrambling up and down scary shit that I probably wouldn't even attempt to do un-roped today, I decided it would be a good idea to learn to use ropes and equipment.
Anyway, that's why I trad.
(Plus…I love playing with nuts and shiny, pretty metal objects)
G~
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dirtineye
Jan 11, 2006, 4:04 PM
Post #119 of 135
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In reply to: I have to admit, I didn't actuall look at any photos before I "penned" my response. I guess that would have been smarter, eh? Hm, if it's that good, I'll have to check it out some day. Save a little poison ivy for me, would ya? GO
Ask Terry about P2 of the OR on the O & W wall in the BSF.
If that thing were at the Gunks it would be solid white from all the climbing. And you can walk right though a PI patch on the way to it!
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jt512
Jan 11, 2006, 5:06 PM
Post #120 of 135
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In reply to: Trad is what climbing is all about. You have to know the rock and know your gear and facilitate the compilation of a mosaic of God made material and man made tools that results in a sublime euphoric experience and demonstration of poetry incarnate.
After reading that I think I need an insulin shot.
Jay
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cracklover
Jan 11, 2006, 6:19 PM
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Mmmm... treacle
GO
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climbsomething
Jan 11, 2006, 6:23 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Trad is what climbing is all about. You have to know the rock and know your gear and facilitate the compilation of a mosaic of God made material and man made tools that results in a sublime euphoric experience and demonstration of poetry incarnate. After reading that I think I need an insulin shot. Jay |
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mur
Jan 11, 2006, 6:54 PM
Post #123 of 135
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Why Trad?
Simple; because I can actually get my fat a$$ up many quality routes, use placing gear as an excuse to catch my breath, get even more rest at the belay(s), and then have a nice relaxing walk back to the truck at the end of the day. I don't sport climb because I simply love pattymelts and beer too much.
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microbarn
Jan 11, 2006, 7:35 PM
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It is the only way I know to attack some of these:
http://www.motownflash.com/800/800x600_133.jpg
http://hbriceno.mitoc.org/...iessner02/cannon.jpg
http://hex.oucs.ox.ac.uk/...2002/devilstower.jpg
I like the idea of being able to climb at any area.
Also, the feeling I got leading my first multipitch at seneca was remarkable. It was only a 5.2, but I was amazingly proud of my proven self contained ability to safely get to the top. With sport, I don't feel like I am self contained, or that I am getting to the top. (Yes, I only have done single pitch sport.)
Finally, I find that I have many more routes in my desired climbing range. Sure, I can fall off of a billion 5.11's, but I enjoy getting to the top of 5.4's more. Maybe I will like sport climbing more when I am less interested in getting to the top of the cliff.
Dan
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climbsomething
Jan 11, 2006, 7:39 PM
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In reply to: Why Trad? Simple; because I can actually get my fat a$$ up many quality routes, use placing gear as an excuse to catch my breath, get even more rest at the belay(s), and then have a nice relaxing walk back to the truck at the end of the day. I don't sport climb because I simply love pattymelts and beer too much. |
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