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sarcat
Aug 6, 2004, 7:51 PM
Post #101 of 138
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newonrock has some valid points.
Maybe an ability for the code to "not allow" posts that have titles with the words:
...shoes...
...help...
I'm new....
Is this....?
etc.
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curt
Aug 6, 2004, 8:54 PM
Post #102 of 138
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In reply to: One possible course of action would be to allow anyone who wishes to post in the Beginners' forum, but restrict the ability to reply such that only a subset of users could reply -- perhaps the people with the highest number of posts that 'rule' (according to the post-votes scheme), or maybe add someone/remove someone once a week according to the users' whims. For example, I'm pretty sure that most people know who John Long, John Gill, or Randy Vogel are. These are no-brainers. But what about Dan DeLange and Jay Tanzman? Not necessarily familiar names, but nonetheless amazingly patient and both have been climbing for a long, long time. Or Kris Solem. Or Matt Anderson. Or Eric Coomer. Or... You get the idea. There are some very strong, experienced climbers on here, and perhaps it would make the most sense (from the standpoint of eliminating trolls and promoting quality information) if they were recognized in this fashion. Not for hero worship, per se -- no silly medals or badges or icons or ranks. Just an admission by the unwashed masses that some people really do know more than the average bear. Any reactions to this proposal?
Tim,
This is exactly what I have already suggested. Therfore--I like it. :wink:
Curt
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 6, 2004, 9:10 PM
Post #103 of 138
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How to provide the best most informative answers in a beginner’s forum.
For suitable questions, the best answer in my mind would be a link to a faq along the lines of Tradgirls faq with a range of responses representing different viewpoints.
Some questions can only be answered by other beginners. Some questions are strictly a matter of opinion.
Cut and paste canned answers?
The last 100 threads in the beginners forum.
What is the best response to each thread?
Advice questions
making the transition to outdoors
newbie need help asap!
I have just started trad i need some help
starting to lead
First Time Bouldering
where to climb, boulder, and find a partner this summer...
First time Sport Climbing the Red ~~ ADVICE NEEDED
Heading outdoors -- Gym ratings vs outdoor ratings
hi, i'm a new climber plz share wisdom
Informationals:
Sticky: Correcting belay errors - Part 1
Sticky: Mini Beginners Guide
Correcting belay errors - Part 2
Technical questions
should I leave my rope in the rope bag?
Rappell on an ATC?
Top roping for NOOBS??
Courses
Gear needed for leading...
help w/ protection
Technique for Climbing Roofs
munter hitch while facing out with back to cliff
tying into a harness...
Top Chain Anchors
Can cordelette be used in one line, not a loop for top rope?
rappelling from 2 bolt anchors
Climbing terms? (not of endearment)
Strenght Training?
Backing up Clove Hitch ???
Intentional Leader Fall
Cross loading?
abseiling off sports routes
Is this Safe?
SpIDeRS
Biner weak if not on belay loop??
Tips on handhold placement for a wall
Trad... Sport... WTF?
5.8 R H....what is "H"
Washing ropes!!!!
Top Chain Anchors
tying into a harness...
Technique for Climbing Roofs
quaified persons please answer this post
Home made Webolett?
multi-pitch descents. How do they do it?
Anchoring Angles on Bolts
Bigwall racks on 3 pitch 5.4's.
Falling Well
Rappelling off a chain
trad climbing
falls
Another darn rope question...
carabiner application?
Why not Gloves?
dumb chalk question
My elbows hurt like hell!!!
Spotting a partner
chalk?
Caught my first lead fall yesterday
Webbing Question
Mental
Heights are in my way
can bouldering help with top rope climbing?
Beginner to beginner questions”
did you ever share shoes?
Extremely Dumb Question: My Hands Hurt!
Hi everybody !!! One rookie speaking ....
Gear
Bad Rope Buy?!
women specific harness
climbing shoes????!!
These shoes
equipment
shoe question,plz help
Buying old shoes - will the rubber be any good?
Questions on Shoes
gear??
First Rope to buy
Any of these good for a beginner???????????
New to Climbing.... fitness question
First pair of climbing shoes
First pair of climbing shoes - back from MEC
Outdoor vs. indoor shoe sizing
Shoes for beginners
Bouldering with Helmets?
how tight should shoes be?
NEW SHOES 4 Beginner: Stiff or not Stiff?
shoes in the washing machine?
-=--=-=-=
anchors at shelf road
pitiful but...
Sport in Geogia, North Carolina, Tenn.
Ahh, newness
new to area etc
adirondacks
Fresh Meat
Moved: Wiregate Quickdraws...good or bad?
Moved: How do you quote on RC.com?
Moved: Portland, Oregon
Moved: Lightening close calls?
Moved: Clove Hitch in webbing?
Moved: poison oak on rope. wash it?
Moved: How to you set a slack line in you own back yard
Moved: Girls help!
Moved: CNY Region!!!!
Moved: Ever get your foot caught in a crack?
Moved: Looking for climbers in Oklahoma?
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fredrogers
Aug 6, 2004, 9:40 PM
Post #104 of 138
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I agree with Newonrock that the "Experts forum" could get pretty egoist. Perhaps the Beginners forum could stay but also the Experts forum could be created. People will soon learn that good answers without clutter will be found on the Experts forum. People could still post to the Beginners forum but maybe a Popup would say something like
"Sure, you can post here but you may get a better answer in the Experts forum". That way people have a choice.
Now, how do you decide who the experts are? Peer review? Invitation only?
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maculated
Aug 6, 2004, 9:49 PM
Post #105 of 138
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Umm, did it ever occur to anyone how banal it would be for said "experts?"
I know I stopped answering the beginner stuff when I, myself, was over the beginner stage. I cannot imagine anyone is really willing to sit down and answer all the questions people pose.
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cabal666
Aug 6, 2004, 10:17 PM
Post #106 of 138
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In reply to: I think more experienced climbers should spend more time in the Beginners Forum sharing their experience.
This man makes sense. Leave the forum, It's answered many questions for me.
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elvislegs
Aug 6, 2004, 10:31 PM
Post #107 of 138
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Posts: 3148
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heh. does anyone else find it a little bit poetic and funny that this thread is already eight pages long? ehhhh maybe it's just me.
anyway, regarding the beginners forum: listen up everyone cuz i'm only gonna say it once...
ASDFFFFFFFFF.
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calamity_chk
Aug 6, 2004, 10:43 PM
Post #108 of 138
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In reply to: One possible course of action would be to allow anyone who wishes to post in the Beginners' forum, but restrict the ability to reply such that only a subset of users could reply -- perhaps the people with the highest number of posts that 'rule' (according to the post-votes scheme), or maybe add someone/remove someone once a week according to the users' whims. For example, I'm pretty sure that most people know who John Long, John Gill, or Randy Vogel are. These are no-brainers. But what about Dan DeLange and Jay Tanzman? Not necessarily familiar names, but nonetheless amazingly patient and both have been climbing for a long, long time. Or Kris Solem. Or Matt Anderson. Or Eric Coomer. Or... You get the idea. There are some very strong, experienced climbers on here, and perhaps it would make the most sense (from the standpoint of eliminating trolls and promoting quality information) if they were recognized in this fashion. Not for hero worship, per se -- no silly medals or badges or icons or ranks. Just an admission by the unwashed masses that some people really do know more than the average bear. Any reactions to this proposal?
This is pretty much what Curt has proposed. I like it.
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rrrADAM
Aug 6, 2004, 10:57 PM
Post #109 of 138
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As someone else had mentioned... "Many times, the devil is in the details" How would follow uyp questions be answered ??? By another thread posting the question ??? Gonna get even harder to follow, and/or redundant.
Or are you actually suggesting that those who answer, post an article style answer that will be so detailed that no follow up questions would be needed, as it would be understood by even the newest n00b ???
This is akin to the "Ask the Experts Forum" I proposed over a month ago in the M+E Forum, that even Tim thought problematic to create and maintain.
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dingus
Aug 6, 2004, 11:14 PM
Post #110 of 138
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I don't specifically read the beginners forum (or any other forum for that matter, but esp the noob forum) so if I don't notice a post to the front page I probably won't see it.
As stated, that's a problem with the basic forum design. Nothing to be done about that as the powers to be have made it clear they are not willing to change the U/I.
So the beginners are pretty much stuck with that. TS.
Then you have the 'experts' that go into the beginner forum... for what? Altruism? Ego? What? Why compells all you goddanged experts (hehe) to go in there in the first place?
Me? I'm an expert in some things and a damn fool in others. After 10 years of climbing talk on the internet I think I understand the cyclical nature of noob quetions. The 20th time I see a 'euro-death knot' I might be an old curmudgeon and tell the questioner to go read a FAQ somewhere. Mostly I would just ignore those threads, content in the previous 19 answer threads. Their loss, I figure.
And then, on the 21st and for reasons I cannot explain, I might cherrily explain it all... AGAIN. And then #22, back to being crabby.
I figger, Grasshopper ask Master a question out of school, Grasshopper as likely to get whacked with stick as valid answer. That is Grasshopper's problem, not Master's. After all, Master already know answer.
So if you rocket scientists can engineer around that one little problem, that noobs are noobs and experts are experts and the meeting line inbetween is fuzzy and prone to antagonism, as long as you understand that element of human nature, and then engineer a U/I that prohibits this natural display of human nature... then I suggest you leave the broken forum U/I alone.
Cause the problm with the beginner's forum isn't computer based. Nor is it even internet-centric. This is a basic human nature question. Just go watch some noob construction worker on his first few weeks at a busy job site... you will see our daily drama played out in the real world.
DMT
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curt
Aug 6, 2004, 11:39 PM
Post #111 of 138
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In reply to: As someone else had mentioned... "Many times, the devil is in the details" How would follow uyp questions be answered ??? By another thread posting the question ??? Gonna get even harder to follow, and/or redundant.
A few additional thoughts. I guess Tim would know best, but this doesn't seem that hard to implement to me, because the rules would be very simple.
1) Any RC.com user could start a thread.
2) Any approved responder (like in the WW thread) could reply and so could the original RC.com user who started the thread. No one else could reply, though.
3) As far as the "elitism" issue goes, you would not necessarily have to change the name of the forum to "Ask an Expert" or to anything else, for that matter. You could still call it the Beginner Forum, if you like--it would merely operate differently.
Curt
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calamity_chk
Aug 7, 2004, 1:49 AM
Post #112 of 138
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adam, having been skeptical of the 'ask an expert' format, i really really like curt's idea. i'm just curious to hear tim's thoughts on the practicality of implementing it.
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coylec
Aug 7, 2004, 4:36 AM
Post #114 of 138
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The real problem comes down to who's an expert. Perfect example is the homemade webolette argument in the beginner's thread -- rrradam is advocating for the RussianR-uo-lette (formerly Death-o-lette, both copyright by Jay) while others are advocating for continuous loop. I wrote a post in there that got good responses, but I'm no expert.
I think its a little cynical when we say that the people asking these questions can't figure out which responses are good and which are crap. I can figure out whether a post is worth reading by a glance: if its good, its going to be structured as "argument", "reason". "evidence". If it's crap, it'll just have a bunch of claims.
How are we going to determine who an expert is? Going to have a written test? Going to read back through their posts? Or is it just going to be a "I like the answers that JT, rGold, Dingus, and others make, so they're our experts". I fear that it will become an elitist little bunch - easy way to say "I'm better than you". And, if our high posters can't figure out how to vote, how are they going to answer n00b questions? the ballot was confusing and misleading. Oh, re: AMGA ... like 'em, but a cert isn't proof you know or don't know your stuff - it just says you passed the test.
Quite frankly, I have disagreements on issues that are quite basic. How should you tie into the rope: figure 8, figure 8 w/ barrel backup, figure 8 with yos finish, bowline, dbl bowline ... there are not simple answers for very many questions.
I don't sense the beginners forum is broken, so why are we trying to fix it?
coylec
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newonrock
Aug 7, 2004, 6:27 AM
Post #115 of 138
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>>>I don't sense the beginners forum is broken, so why are we trying to fix it? <<<
The only reason to "fix" it would be for liability reasons. This may not be an unwarranted fear. I heard that a yahoo group poster is now getting sued by a layer who was called a "shyster" on a message board. LAME!!
So liability is something to consider.
As far as why all of the sudden its an "issue" I can only think that some folks are having a bad day.
I really value the rough and tumble chaos of BF. And like you, I don't find it difficult to figure out who is legit and who isn't. I want a place where I can post a stupid beginners question, get called a punk noobee idiot for even asking that, and be able to get a variety of responses so that I can carefully compare these to my own studies and experience.
Before I asked about the "death - o - lette" / russian ru - o - lette" for instance, I was using 5 mil perlon in the death configuration. NOW I DON"T thanks to that evil bad toi - o - let known as the beginners forum.
Here are my suggestions:
1. Put a LARGE disclaimer on the Bforum, everywhere on it.
2. I'm sure that SOMEONE around here knows who the legit legendary type climbers are on RC.com. On other climbing sites its not that hard to figure out who these guys are. There are fair means to help determine this. Figure out who these guys/gals are and ONLY put a special "old timers" tag on their handles/usernames - especially if they are well known published authors etc...
3.Leave it at that. Don't mess with access or limit postings. People deserve more credit for researching profiles and posting hisories etc, etc..
Keep it open people, if someone has died, yeah then we might have a problem. But I still haven't heard of one single example of death or injury caused by the BF. In that sense, I totally agree with the statement ; >>>"I don't sense the beginners forum is broken, so why are we trying to fix it?" <<<
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curt
Aug 7, 2004, 7:06 AM
Post #116 of 138
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In reply to: I really value the rough and tumble chaos of BF. And like you, I don't find it difficult to figure out who is legit and who isn't. I want a place where I can post a stupid beginners question, get called a punk noobee idiot for even asking that, and be able to get a variety of responses so that I can carefully compare these to my own studies and experience.
If you really are new on rock, newonrock, then you do not, in fact, have the ability to figure out "who is legit and who isn't" as you assert. Further, you do not have the ability to tell good advice from bad advice. And, that is exactly the situation that most n00bs need to be protected from.
This is not solely a safety or liability issue. Simply put, there is a general desire here to make the information available to beginners more reliable--with less BS thrown in. Why in the world would you have a problem with that?
Curt
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honeybee
Aug 7, 2004, 9:49 AM
Post #117 of 138
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I think it should stay, no matter whether you remove it or not, your still going to have the beginners asking questions and your still going to have the complete numpty’s replying with idiotic answers (this includes bad advice and soul destroying criticism)
The only difference is they will start filling up your forums with the same questions that people are sick of hearing. By herding newbies (that includes me) into one forum it allows them to feel less pressured. I would love to say, not to have to worry about being shredded for asking what to some may be a stupid question but to them very important, sometimes life saving, but unfortunately for every newbie you always get some pr!ck who takes pleasure in belittling others.
Its like everything in life, people have to learn who to listen to and who not too. If they read the posts frequently they'll soon pick up on names who "appear" to know what they are talking about. I’ve come to recognise names who’s advice seems sound, but even so I’m not going to trust my life on it, the more you research the greater info you have to decide from. People have to make their own judgements.
As for it being about trusting info off the net, only the other day I was reading a post about some blokes belayer being given seriously bad advice at the bottom of the crag (to the point where the bug was removed while the climber was still in full flow so that he could show him how to do it correctly). Bad advice is not just given on the internet, at least on here you have people who generally know what they are talking about who will hopefully question/correct the stupid answers given, allowing the newbie to learn how to judge good advice from bad. It’s not the best, but it’s not exactly the worst either.
I like the idea of the Experts forum, any one with enough sense and balls will go there, stick the disclaimer on the beginners if you feel you need to cover your a$$. But keep it. Everyone starts somewhere, be it in climbing or just on this website.
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darth_gaydar
Aug 7, 2004, 1:15 PM
Post #118 of 138
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Eliminate the beginners themselves, the forum is just fine.
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newonrock
Aug 7, 2004, 6:11 PM
Post #120 of 138
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In reply to: Eliminate the beginners themselves, the forum is just fine.
Unfortunately, probably because rockclimbing (especially sport) is increasingly the realm of youth 15-25, I find this attitude not only on the net but at the crags too. I've encountered more than my share of awsome gifted *young* climbers, who are complete !@*+^$%^#%s pr--ks with not the slightest interest in being civil toward fellow climbers. (I can give you fist hand accounts if you don't believe me)
The people I would like to see "eliminated" or just moved into their own forum are:
The ones who can climb 5.13d and consider themselves "experts" just based on that, know almost nothing about protecting a climb because they often "don't need it", started climbing when they were 12 and are now 17 and think therefore that they have "more experience" than me, don't know the difference bewteen a clove and a muntner, and eventually switch to rope jumping because climbing no longer prvides that "special little tingle".
BTW, I am "new on rock", less than 2 years exp. But I am also 42 years old and can even pee straight. I got into rock climbing because I wanted to climb alpine hills and recognized I needed rock skills to do the technical stuff. I found I liked it though, and the approach hikes -for the most part- are much easier than hauling a fifty lbs pack up a glacier.
The problem (and I don't think its a problem really) is with climbing as a "SPORT", and how it (and the egotizm necessary for all "sports") gets thrown in with true traditional climbing. Also, I don't think just because you're placing pro means that youre climbing trad. If you got the sport mentality, are competing with ratings etc, or racing to the top, then no matter what style your using you are SPORT climbing. JMHO
RC.com in general seems to me (a newbie) to be mostly about the sport mentality of climbing - as if that were the only motivation for climbing at all! Fortunately or unfortunately there is so much good technical information available here because of the shear numbers of postings that it would be silly not to use this site - with cautious, mature, common sense.
At 42, with 20 extra pounds, a bad knee etc, you'll never see me on a 5.13 unless I'm rapping off the top. But that in itself doesn't mean I don't know anything about climbing or can't learn. And just because some"body" can climb 5.13 doesn't mean that they don't have their head up their a--.
Keep the BF, improve it if you can. If your an "expert", then be tolerant of the noobs, you may have a natural talent, but your not a god.
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crackrn
Aug 23, 2004, 3:32 AM
Post #121 of 138
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Lord...eight pages is a lot to read. I only made it through 4! My apologies if my answer is now irrelevant. I say keep it. When I start something new I tend to get way into it which includes reading any and everything about my new interest. Often, the BF has spurred me to read more ask more, try more certain things (anchors, belay techniques, etc.) that I didn't know had variations (dynamic belay, what?). I don't use it as my bible but as a springboard for more learning.
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tim
Aug 23, 2004, 4:30 AM
Post #122 of 138
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In reply to: 2. I'm sure that SOMEONE around here knows who the legit legendary type climbers are on RC.com. On other climbing sites its not that hard to figure out who these guys are. There are fair means to help determine this. Figure out who these guys/gals are and ONLY put a special "old timers" tag on their handles/usernames - especially if they are well known published authors etc...
Actually, we started up with Post Ratings not too long ago, and it's been a great barometer of who is full of shit and who is not. I've looked in the database a few times to see how nonuniform the spread of positive ratings was, and I was shocked at how effectively people singled out guys like Dan DeLange and Bob D'Antonio... exactly the sort of folks who would be perfect for beginners to interact with. Not necessarily the recognizable names that John Long or John Gill are, but nonetheless, I was astounded at how good of a barometer this process is. I'm thinking that instead of being limited to people who have posted before, it might be best to hand out votes to the people with the most experience (as indicated by their peers' opinions) and also hand out another pool of votes among lurkers who visit a lot. But these are really just details...
The bottom line is that we have such a system, and it's dynamic, deployed, and judgement-free (only aggregates matter). I like that kind of system. Is it possible that something where posts in the Beginners' Forum did not get re-bumped onto the front page until an Experienced Guy commented on them, would work? Or just highlighting/re-prioritizing the Old Bold Climbers' input to float to the top?
I'm asking because I don't know the answer -- I know the difference between a Munter and a clove (great example BTW) and have managed to explain the former over a two-way radio to a couple of sport climbers that dropped their belay devices halfway up a 12-pitch route. But I'm not Dan or Bob and I don't know how best to balance their time, privacy, patience, etc. with the seemingly limitless supply of interested beginners.
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rwaltermyer
Aug 23, 2004, 10:30 AM
Post #123 of 138
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Pay them.
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philbox
Moderator
Aug 23, 2004, 9:37 PM
Post #124 of 138
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Registered: Jun 27, 2002
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And charge users to view the answers?
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rwaltermyer
Aug 24, 2004, 1:35 PM
Post #125 of 138
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No. It wouldn't be used then. But in response to Tim's concern.
In reply to: ... I don't know how best to balance their time, privacy, patience, etc. with the seemingly limitless supply of interested beginners.
It's certainty the best way to resolve the said issues...
Time: contracted for X hours.
Privacy & Patience: Suck it up, you're getting paid.
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