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zeke_sf
May 6, 2008, 3:07 PM
Post #152 of 160
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Registered: Apr 28, 2006
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WVUCLMBR wrote: I had to sit on a ledge @ Seneca last weekend for over an hour b/c I was nice/stupid and let a guy and his 2 clients jump ahead of me and the wife on a climb where the last pitch is shared by 3-4 routes. This guy actually had the balls to "teach" his "clients" how to rap from the traffic jam rap station. Backed up about 3-4 groups. Climbers need to act like golfers sometimes and let faster groups "play through". I'm all for teachin'/learnin', but don't be a crag Nazi.
Wow. That truly is the suck. "Can we go ahead of you and then fuck your day up? Thanks!" I've only been behind a guided group once and the guide was everything you'd think a guide should be. It was Snake Dike. He confidently soloed the 5.7 friction crux (not being a great pure friction climber, that impressed me) in his 5.10 guide tennies and belayed both his clients up rapidly. He was also cool to hang out with at the base while we were waiting for a group to figure out simul-climbing on the runout Snake Dike bolts wasn't for them.
We'd told the guide we were cool with being behind a slower group. He just chuckled a bit. Starting up pitch one where my buddy was fiddling around getting pro under the roof (where the guide had had none), the guide shouts down "Hey guys, what's the hold up?" and then laughed. Pretty soon, he and his group were out of sight.
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WVUCLMBR
May 6, 2008, 4:34 PM
Post #153 of 160
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Registered: Sep 20, 2007
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Yes...it definately sucked...the people I really felt bad for were the Russian family behind us. It was a mother being led up by what I'm guessing was her 12-14yr old son and her +/- 10 yr old daughter 2nd'ing (Russians are badass in case you didn't know). It got windy/cold and they had to wait on the "guide" and his n00bs and then us. Oh, and his n00bs were from some rich preppy private school. The real bummer was that it was my wife's 1st time up Seneca and we planned on rappin then getting on something else.......didn't happen. I guess I should mention this happened @ Traffic Jam (well named).
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camhead
May 6, 2008, 4:34 PM
Post #154 of 160
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Registered: Sep 10, 2001
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cracklover wrote: On the other hand, the next weekend I took my fiancee up Castleton. Saturday morning, we were the first to get on the Northeast Chimney. The climbing was at the edge of our respective abilities (damn I wish someone would replace that bolt), and we took all damn day on it.
oh! did you bring a 5 camalot? if not, that move is pretty spicy over that shit bolt; you're basically facing a factor 2. ugly.
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cracklover
May 6, 2008, 4:40 PM
Post #155 of 160
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Registered: Nov 14, 2002
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tomcat wrote: Cracklover.What is wrong with climbing at the edge of your respective abilities....nothing!
I dunno. If the issue we have with guided groups is that they monopolize resources, why not hold other folks - like me - to the same standard? And if so, I should be way more shamed than the guided group.
I mean, if folks don't have an issue with me hogging what may be THE classic route of the desert (after Ancient Art), then I have to question what their real issue is.
Maybe the issue has nothing to do with hogging resources? Maybe it's simply a feeling by some folks that guiding "cheapens" the enterprise. That folks who've paid to go up a climb don't "deserve" to be on the route as much as folks who've put in the time, fear, sweat, and blood, to learn on their own?
I just want us to be perfectly clear about our real issues here. And to be frank, I kind of *do* feel that way, myself.
GO
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cracklover
May 6, 2008, 4:53 PM
Post #156 of 160
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Registered: Nov 14, 2002
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camhead wrote: cracklover wrote: On the other hand, the next weekend I took my fiancee up Castleton. Saturday morning, we were the first to get on the Northeast Chimney. The climbing was at the edge of our respective abilities (damn I wish someone would replace that bolt), and we took all damn day on it. oh! did you bring a 5 camalot? if not, that move is pretty spicy over that shit bolt; you're basically facing a factor 2. ugly.
I did not. Biggest thing I had at the time was a flared out number 3 camalot way down below me, but by the time I reached the business it wouldn't have kept me from breaking my legs on the ledge. I put a screamer on that ancient half-out-of-the-rock star drivin with the rusty tinfoil hanger, but I still didn't trust it worth a damn.
I gotta say, I've climbed a lot of way easier 5.9 offwidths. When my partner got to it, she simply couldn't figure it out, and had to prussik past it. Since that wasn't an option for me in the lead, and neither was falling, I simply groveled, whimpered, and squirmed my way up until I got to the good feet.
That thing beat the hell out of me, but crap gear is a good motivator to figure it out.
GO
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stymingersfink
May 6, 2008, 4:54 PM
Post #157 of 160
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Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250
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cracklover wrote: tomcat wrote: Cracklover.What is wrong with climbing at the edge of your respective abilities....nothing! I dunno. If the issue we have with guided groups is that they monopolize resources, why not hold other folks - like me - to the same standard? And if so, I should be way more shamed than the guided group. I mean, if folks don't have an issue with me hogging what may be THE classic route of the desert (after Ancient Art), then I have to question what their real issue is. Maybe the issue has nothing to do with hogging resources? Maybe it's simply a feeling by some folks that guiding "cheapens" the enterprise. That folks who've paid to go up a climb don't "deserve" to be on the route as much as folks who've put in the time, fear, sweat, and blood, to learn on their own? I just want us to be perfectly clear about our real issues here. And to be frank, I kind of *do* feel that way, myself. GO
IMHO (and a personal practice when with a new climber), there should be some time spent at the crags where the n00bs generally hang out to begin with. Time spent bringing the client up to speed with technique and necessary skills. Time spent assessing their skills, identifying deficiencies and remedying them with instruction in a climbing area where no-one will feel rushed or embarassed to hold others up.
To take a client up a popular route and then teach them how to rap is NOT the mark of a good guide.
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tomcat
May 6, 2008, 7:03 PM
Post #158 of 160
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Registered: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 325
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The sport is all about being at the edge of your abilities.The party behind may have been faster for any number of reasons,skill,recklessness,familiarity with the route.The logical extension of moving aside for them is that when Jimmy Dunn comes along,they gotta move over.But here come Steph and Dean,move over Jim.That's nonsense.
Castleton is three pitches,your are not putting anyone at risk if it takes you 5 hours.There is time enough for another competant party,and another route of the same difficulty around the corner.
We got behind a couple on Moby Grape last year.The girl had no crack skillz at all and tried to layback Reppy's.Her boyfriend or husband would not even keep her rope tight.He was sketched on the first pitch and it took a long time.She went off to take a whiz after his long lead and I had to grab the end of their rope and do my best falsetto"that's me Igor"to avert the ensuing epic of him pulling all the rope up.They were super slow.They were there first.We followed them up three pitches,climbing them in half the time to see if they would invite us to pass,they didn't.We built an anchor and bailed.They were there first.
Like most long time climbers I have let supposed faster parties pass only to find out their competance was all in their head.Do you think you might lead Vertigo faster than the party behind you last week,were the roles reversed?
(This post was edited by tomcat on May 6, 2008, 8:21 PM)
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cracklover
May 7, 2008, 2:39 PM
Post #159 of 160
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Registered: Nov 14, 2002
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tomcat wrote: The sport is all about being at the edge of your abilities.The party behind may have been faster for any number of reasons, skill, recklessness, familiarity with the route.The logical extension of moving aside for them is that when Jimmy Dunn comes along,they gotta move over.But here come Steph and Dean,move over Jim.That's nonsense.
I'm sorry, why is that nonsense? I let them pass, and frankly, it would have been rude of me not to. They were past us and out of our way in a matter of minutes, and they were quite careful about loose rocks (of which there are an abundance), so it worked well. And had a fast soloist come through, I most certainly *do* think they should have let him or her climb through.
In reply to: Castleton is three pitches,your are not putting anyone at risk if it takes you 5 hours.There is time enough for another competant party,and another route of the same difficulty around the corner.
It's not a matter of risk, but of using the resources. And it's not like a sport crag - it's a solid hour+ slog to get up there, and if you're not comfortable with squeeze chimneys, I don't think Kor is an option. Look, I'm not saying I and my partner didn't have a right to be up there flailing around. I just think it's a question of whether or not we have *more* of a right than a guided party would.
{snip very funny story about Moby Grape}
In reply to: Like most long time climbers I have let supposed faster parties pass only to find out their competance was all in their head.Do you think you might lead Vertigo faster than the party behind you last week,were the roles reversed?
Hard to guess. I'd say we probably would have been about the same speed on Vertigo. So what? It probably never would have been an issue there. In this case, they waited at the base for over two hours, before starting up and smoking past us on pitch two.
GO
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tomcat
May 7, 2008, 4:54 PM
Post #160 of 160
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Registered: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 325
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What does a guided party on Castleton look like?Would you expect someone to get guided there for skill building?I would not.I'd venture it's a ticking expedition.So as I see it,since you are making your own way,you'd have priority.Not necessarily over the guide,but over their clients.
In my experience a guided party can be quite the crapshoot.The guide might kick ass but how do you have time to assess the clients on a three pitch route and determine if they should pass.
What is the correct amount of skill that allows you to stay in the front?
(This post was edited by tomcat on May 7, 2008, 4:56 PM)
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