silascl wrote:

Very infrequently to never as my partners know how to belay. but proving the converse doesn't prove that up rope is an acknowledged lead command. If I need slack on TR, the belayer should feel tension on their end, and know to keep me looser absent a command to the contrary. If there is a traverse or something like that, a knowledgeable belay will automatically keep you loose, or you can ask for more rope via 'slack' 'traversing' 'keep me a little loose' etc.

I stand by my belief that Up Rope is never a good lead command because your situations are not terribly believeable. If the belayer can see the leader, it should never be necessary. If out of sight and the leader is above a piece, it will get you pulled on. If the leader is out of sight and at or below a piece, it may get the leader shortroped as they move past.

I suppose it might be usable if the leader was downclimbing, but at that point you are basically toproping anyway.

I guess I frankly don't buy it because toprope belays and lead belays are different. It is easy to imagine a situation on TR where you'd like a looser belay, but I can't imagine a situation on lead where you'd like a tighter belay, ie, feel the belayer pulling on you. Now if your belayer has the aforementioned puddle of slack in the line either at their feet, or is standing in a weird spot and there is a huge dangling loop between them and the first gear, that's when the Watch Me command is appropriate, and the belayer needs to use their skill and judgment to keep the leader safe by adjusting or not the amount of rope in the system.

caughtinside wrote:

Adding to this, can the leader even see how much slack is out and make the appropriate judgment from high on a route?

jt512 wrote:

No. Where is all this extra slack? It can be in two places that I can think of. On the ground at the belayer's feet, or in a loose loop between the belayer and first gear if the belayer is standing in a not so great spot.

caughtinside wrote:

In reply to:

caughtinside wrote:

OK, so you are actually a troll who doesn't really climb. You had me goin' there for a couple years. The slack is the loop that drapes down from the belay device. Unless you're climbing at some shrubbery-infested low-angle wasteland, like Tahquitz, the leader need only glance down to see it.

Jay

jt512 wrote:

Ok, let's address those:

1) my false claim that a leader would never want less slack.

Finally, I'd say that your use of the terms 'ridiculous' and 'false' in this scenario are an attempt to question the credibility of my opinion...

caughtinside wrote:

In your own posts you state several examples of where the leader would want less slack in the rope, but you write each of them off as either "rare" or that they "shouldn't" happen if the belayer is "competent." Basically, then, you have just falsified your own argument. Some of the events you state are "rare," aren't, and even if they were rare, rare events still happen. As for all the events that "shouldn't" happen, and which you seem to believe don't happen in your imaginary world of perfect, omniscient belayers, in the real world of real belayers, do. Example: You've clipped a bolt on a bulge and have climbed over it and now have to climb a hard sequence to get to the next bolt. "Watch me." The belayer is watching you and has 5 feet of slack out, because his plan is to drop you well past the buldge, but you feel you don't need that much slack. "Up rope." Maybe you're right, maybe the belayer is, but you're the climber. It's your call.

Although your own arbitrarily dismissed examples disprove your own claim, your claim is false by the simple reason that it implies that the belayer always knows how much slack the climber wants in the rope, which is absurd.


I don't know why you would think that. "False" is about the most dry and unemotional term I can think of to mean, um, false. And I called your claim that a leader would never have to tell his belayer to lessen the slack in the rope "ridiculous" because it is so obviously and plainly false that I would not have believed it possible for an experienced climber to believe otherwise.

Jay

caughtinside wrote:

Adding to this, can the leader even see how much slack is out and make the appropriate judgment from high on a route?

jt512 wrote:

I am not even sure what we are arguing about here, I thought it was the use of the term Up Rope for a leader. OF COURSE there will be times the belayer takes in some rope. If you clip a piece high, as you move past it more slack will enter the system and I expect the belayer to bring that slack in and then start paying it back out above the piece automatically. There is no need for a command for this, it is Gym Lead Belay 101.

This same situation covers your hard move above a ledge. you clip high pieces, the belay will have to pay out rope to do so, and should automatically bring the rope back in as you climb above them. Extra attention to this can be ensured by a Watch Me command or a chat about the ledge. If you want a tight belay off the ledge for some borderline A0 toprope security, you might use a non standard command like keep me tight here.

You can continue to go on about how Up Rope is a standard lead belay command, but I have never heard it, nor have dingus or curt. So keep going, you're doing great!

cracklover wrote:

caughtinside wrote:

In any sufficiently long internet argument someone will either get redundant or lost. In this post you've done both. See 'ya.

Jay

jt512 wrote:

I've never hear uprope used in this context before, but there *is* a use for it, and I'll start using it.

I have one partner who is not the greatest belayer ever. If I say "watch me", I trust that he'll pay attention, but I don't trust that he'll realize that that means the loop of slack he has is too big.

jt512 wrote:

it's redundant because there are only so many times I can say Watch Me and you still don't get it, and refuse to address why this is inadequate for the situations you describe.

caughtinside wrote:

Maybe you can explain this personally to caughtinside.

Jay

caughtinside wrote:

I explained many posts ago why "Watch me" shouldn't be substituted for "Up rope," although I think it's self-evident.

Jay

jt512 wrote:

I expect that when I say Watch Me to my belay, they will evaluate what exactly needs to be done to keep me safe.

caughtinside wrote:

I know that's what you are doing. Some would call that blind faith. Some would call it abdicating responsibility for your safety to your belayer. Some would call it an inefficient redpoint tactic, under the right circumstances. There are lots of reasons when you'd want to explicitly tell your belayer to reduce the amount of slack in the rope, and I'm still floored that you've never encountered any of them.

I've always thought that "watch me" was the superfluous command.

Edit: I didn't notice that you assume that your belayer will do "exactly" what needs to be done. It is impossible that that will be the case 100% of the time. You are abdicating responsibility to your belayer.

Jay

jt512 wrote:

I've never hear uprope used in this context before, but there *is* a use for it, and I'll start using it.

I have one partner who is not the greatest belayer ever. If I say "watch me", I trust that he'll pay attention, but I don't trust that he'll realize that that means the loop of slack he has is too big.