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alpnclmbr1
Oct 29, 2003, 12:27 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Btw, does anyone here have direct knowledge of Dave Kennedy's "bolt war" at Mission Gorge (San Diego crags)? Something about bolting next to a crack, chopped, rebolted, chopped again...? -John Smallwood Are we or are we not sticking to the CT issue? :D
DK's ethical behavior is at the root of this issue.
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climbbaja
Oct 29, 2003, 12:30 AM
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Response to "roughster":
Your quote: "Next time down to CT..."
Oh, so you've actually been there? Now I know why you are the CT expert.
-J.S.
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roughster
Oct 29, 2003, 12:38 AM
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In reply to: DK's ethical behavior is at the root of this issue.
Ok so let me get this straight.
Bvb says the conflict between John and Dave has nothing to do with the guidebook issue.
You say however that a bolt chopping story (of which I have no idea of it either way) about an non-CT area is relevant?? It could very well be a fabrication or the start of an ubsubstantiated rumor (my guess as to what the real motivation of the post was).
I just find that incredibly funny :) John is the one who laid the call out to stay on topic and I see people attempting to do so, but now the caller is moving on to something else? Isn't that...a little hypocritical?
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roughster
Oct 29, 2003, 12:42 AM
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In reply to: Response to "roughster": Your quote: "Next time down to CT..." Oh, so you've actually been there? Now I know why you are the CT expert.
-J.S.
LOL I never claimed to be an expert, and I have never claimed "your in my backyard" either. John you are not the only person in the world to have discovered a new area and felt the pain of seeing others come in and do things you may not like, but the bottom line is; you don't own the area. You are being a self appointed policeman with the average security guard mentality.
If you were a mexican citizen and part owner of the land, you would have every right to act in the manner which you are, but considering your not, you are just acting in a manner that is consistant with the generalization of localism.
So tell me John, you feel like sending me the info? Surely you would be enough of a man to put aside our petty differences considering I am not writing a guidebook and send me some updated topos right?
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 29, 2003, 12:45 AM
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Actually the issue as far as the san diego guide is whether the claims that DiK spitefully made up names for routes put up by people he had alienated and couldn't get the accurate FA info from.
I find this totally relevant to the ongoing discussion.
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roughster
Oct 29, 2003, 12:54 AM
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In reply to: Actually the issue as far as the san diego guide is whether the claims that DiK spitefully made up names for routes put up by people he had alienated and couldn't get the accurate FA info from. I find this totally relevant to the ongoing discussion.
Ahh the sign of a true intellectual. Making a poke at someone's initials?
Of course you do, because it supports your stance of villifiying DK to make him seem to be nothing more than, how did you put it, a "Greedy Gringo".
I see an unsubstantiated claim to a possible rumor about Dave coming from someone who obviously has a huge dislike of him. Remember that "take it with a grain salt" comment I threw out earlier??
I just love the grasping at every available straw the anti-camp is starting to get into to. Give this whole line of reasoning a few more posts and you guys will be claiming that the bolt chopping unsubstantiated rumor is a fact, lol!
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crotch
Oct 29, 2003, 1:22 AM
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In reply to: I see an unsubstantiated claim to a possible rumor about Dave coming from someone who obviously has a huge dislike of him. Remember that "take it with a grain salt" comment I threw out earlier?? I just love the grasping at every available straw the anti-camp is starting to get into to. Give this whole line of reasoning a few more posts and you guys will be claiming that the bolt chopping unsubstantiated rumor is a fact, lol!
Kennedy was involved in a bolt-war with Art Messier over at Mission Gorge. Art chopped Kennedy's bolts, there were hostile emails sent back and forth, and finally the park staff put a temporary moratorium on bolting. I don't know if it's been lifted yet. This all went out to the SD climbing community in emails by both Art and Dave.
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crotch
Oct 29, 2003, 1:23 AM
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In reply to: I see an unsubstantiated claim to a possible rumor about Dave coming from someone who obviously has a huge dislike of him. Remember that "take it with a grain salt" comment I threw out earlier?? I just love the grasping at every available straw the anti-camp is starting to get into to. Give this whole line of reasoning a few more posts and you guys will be claiming that the bolt chopping unsubstantiated rumor is a fact, lol!
Kennedy was involved in a bolt-war with Art Messier over at Mission Gorge. Art chopped Kennedy's bolts, there were hostile emails sent back and forth, and finally the park staff put a temporary moratorium on bolting. I don't know if it's been lifted yet. This all went out to the SD climbing community in emails by both Art and Dave.
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 29, 2003, 1:25 AM
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That wasn't a poke at his initials, that was a comment on my opinion of his integrity.
Based on his "actions" he is a wanker.
The best support he has gotten in this entire thread is that he "didn't raise his voice" in an argument. Actually, he loses points on that comment also, this is a passionate issue.
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climbbaja
Oct 29, 2003, 1:34 AM
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Repsonse to "roughster":
It seems you are avoiding the question. Please tell us, exactly how many times have you been to CT? Or, never actually having been there, did you accidently misrepresent yourself?
-J.S.
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bvb
Oct 29, 2003, 1:35 AM
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In reply to: Isn't that...a little hypocritical?
i have not gone back through the thirteen pages, but i've lost count of the times aaron has called people hypocrites.
oh, the irony.
http://www.stonecarver.com/gargoyles/sinkface.jpg
f--ck the moratorium on personal swipes. roughster is in full-on troll mode, and you guys are buying it hook, line and sinker.
sorry john smallwood, but he's a polesmoking codpiece :P , and if you guys are going to keep on with this theater of the absurd that passes as an intellegent debate, have at it. but you have to admit...he's a classic passive/aggressive, not worth my time, not worth yours either.
i'm pushing my thumbs down botton for aaron. although this will be somewhat disjointing to any further additions to the thread, i'm not about to waste any more cragging time reading his unique brand of tripe. this thread is trench warfafe, circa 1917. lots of ammo fired, but no movement whatsoever.
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bvb
Oct 29, 2003, 1:39 AM
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done. ahhh, the roughster killfile. it was better than a hot shower after a long day grovelling in the dirt. and i won't have to read his inevitable spew about how i've conceded to his positions 'cause i killfilled him, thrown in the towell on the debate, "OWNED", etc.
pure refreshment.
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climbbaja
Oct 29, 2003, 1:51 AM
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Just so that we don't get rumors going here (as "roughster" fears) in a discussion of Kennedy's integrity, Kennedy, by his own admission renamed numerous routes at Valley of the Moon. Someone else reports that he has plagiarized heavily in his San Diego County guide. He has spewed lies about me trying to fight him (no, I didn't try to fight him). Can anyone here (crotch?) report with good authority, did he bolt next to a crack, and if so, how close? That "bolt war" was well documented.
These issues go to Kennedy's character, which is "the hell with everyone else, I'll do what I want, regardless". He now wants to jeopardize the CT experience for everyone to make a profit in excess of $50k. That defines egocentric, self-serving, and narcissistic.
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roughster
Oct 29, 2003, 2:38 AM
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In reply to: Repsonse to "roughster": It seems you are avoiding the question. Please tell us, exactly how many times have you been to CT? Or, never actually having been there, did you accidently misrepresent yourself? -J.S.
I was regretfully informed that since I didn't report in to you to receive my CT Merit Badge that I have "officially" gone to CT zero times. Damn...such a bummer!
As for Bob killfile'ing me. WEW! It took a concernted effort, but in the end, the "good fight" was won :)
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bvb
Oct 29, 2003, 3:34 AM
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In reply to: Just so that we don't get rumors going here (as "roughster" fears)
roughster fears rumors? seems to me they are the principle currency in the kingdom of delusion that is his own private idaho.
hey...this is the best of both worlds...i don't have to endure the full brunt of his juvenalia, but i get to respond to his pullquotes, and references others' make about him. KILLER! all hail the killfile!
even though i can't hear him or see him...i can still smell the unmistakable stench...
oh, btw, hey roughie -- a couple of folks wanna know exactly where and when you read "the guidebook problem", as you claim to have done so, prior to my posting it. because 'lil homie, those old Ascents are awfully hard to come by, and you are of a generation that for the most part is unaware of the magazine's existance, and the article has never been reprinted.
you can pm me with your answer...and i'm sure it'll be a good one, 'cause you'd never out and out LIE just to try to score "points" in one of your little polemics, would you?
please response.
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sharpender
Oct 29, 2003, 4:00 AM
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roughster wrote:In reply to: alpnclmbr1 wrote: There is only one truth in this thread: Canon Tajo has had a tradition of no guidebook for thirty years and DK has unilaterally decided to ignore that tradition. Here is another: There is more to the story than that.
And to quote you, I'll bite. Fill in the story. Be sure to compare the tradition of the "secret area" that would make Socal climbers jaws drop and your desire for a guide to CT as a way to maximise the limited time you have when you visit there (available to all those who take the time to read the whole thread).
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sharpender
Oct 29, 2003, 4:10 AM
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bvb wrote:In reply to: f--ck the moratorium on personal swipes. roughster is in full-on troll mode, and you guys are buying it hook, line and sinker.
God, I'm laughing so hard. I was going to PM you that very thought when he goaded you into your "adolescent humour". By the way, even though I personally don't like that humor (as you may know if you saw my posts in the profanity thread) I am impressed by the way you owned up to it as you directed it at him.
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climbbaja
Oct 29, 2003, 5:23 AM
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"Roughster",
You said someone "in the know" told you the robberies did not happen. I'm curious about that. Maybe you could name names or PM me, since I was a hub of communication around the peak of incidents in 1996. Even organized a meeting of 50+ CT climbers at a local climbing gym to deal with the problem. Got a local independent reporter to investigate and write a feature article. (The corporate rag S.D. U/T wouldn't print anything negative on Baja as they were trying to start up a Spanish language newspaper). View report of armed robbery at: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Tajo+Mayhem&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=4gvgpb%24lll%40news-e2c.gnn.com&rnum=1
There were several other robberies and serious incidents. One Baja 1000 prerunning racer was shot and wounded. Another was carjacked. A camper at the Parque Nacional hit in the head with a rifle butt and carjacked. Numerous vehicle burglaries at basecamp, incl. Alejandro's "Alex" vehicle twice at least. Vehicles burned to the ground in the next canyon over. Major weed growing operation busted between CT and La Rumorosa. There are narcotraficantes flying low and dropping loads for transfer to vehicles. Army patrols and shakedowns with automatic weapons aimed.
Makes the rattlesnakes, cactus, scorpions, and long runouts on 1/4" spinners seem tame ;)
-J.S.
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td
Oct 29, 2003, 5:29 AM
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In reply to: Just so that we don't get rumors going here (as "roughster" fears) in a discussion of Kennedy's integrity, Kennedy, by his own admission renamed numerous routes at Valley of the Moon. Someone else reports that he has plagiarized heavily in his San Diego County guide. He has spewed lies about me trying to fight him (no, I didn't try to fight him). Can anyone here (crotch?) report with good authority, did he bolt next to a crack, and if so, how close? That "bolt war" was well documented. These issues go to Kennedy's character, which is "the hell with everyone else, I'll do what I want, regardless". He now wants to jeopardize the CT experience for everyone to make a profit in excess of $50k. That defines egocentric, self-serving, and narcissistic.
Reading thru this thread it seems clear to me that it is best to stick closer to facts rather than hearsay.
Firstly, let me say that I am mostly against a CT guidebook, unless it could be shown in advance that enough official planning had been done with the landowners to resolve the main issues ahead of time. And I doubt if this can be shown. It does not take a crystal ball to foresee the impacts of larger crowds (which are gradually increasing anyway).
That does not excuse a lot of the distortion I have read here.
Secondly, I am not looking to ruin any friendships, so I am not going to dwell on minor events/foibles.
3) In the Mission Gorge bolting/chopping, both parties got carried away.
In the end I think a compromise was reached down the middle, after getting the ranger involved.
There was a moratorium for a while. Now there is an official bolt approval process.
4) Since this keeps getting repeated here, Dave's book is not plagiarized. I think it is a good guidebook.
Of course it does build on information by previous authors, just as all guidebooks do. It also has a big section of acknowledgements.
Ron's own advise seems pertinent:
"Listen to the other side, and try to understand it. It may not be as awful as you think if you shut up and give another viewpoint some consideration.
Stick to the facts, and identify your sources. If you need a bunch of lies to prop up your views, maybe it's time to modify them.
Leave emotion and personal garbage out of it. Someone who disagrees is not an enemy, and they're not evil, so don't act like it.
When you reply, address points individually, and in context. Respond to particular issues, not a bunch of general rhetoric.
Get off your high horse. There is no moral high ground here. Righteousness stinks.
Leave accusations and gossip out of it.
Try to seperate your personal issues from the issue at hand."
I have a copy of the Amick guide to Woodson that I guess he was handing out in about 1987. I must say it is still my favorite guide to that area. But it was not widely available. (And somehow my copy seems to be missing the acknowledgements section.) All you could get in stores was Bruckner's guide. Some people also had the topos used to set up the last Woodson bouldering comp.
When Craig Fry's second edition to the Bouldering SoCal came out, it failed to properly update the Woodson section. By the way this guide has some resemblance to Amick's, maybe they worked together?
So there was plenty of need for a uptodate published guide.
Dave put up notes at gyms, stores, & rec.climbing in 1998 that he was writing the book. Anyone interested could have talked to him.
He talked to plenty of locals for all the areas in the book. There was no shortage of info for areas like Woodson and Mission Gorge.
I believe Amick is included in the acknowledgements.
I'm sure future guidebooks can be even more accurate, if first ascentionists want to step forward.
Dave's book followed another book that beat his to print by about 6 months. That book included areas like Crest and Deerhorn, which are private property and are closed. Dave left those areas out of his book, trying to include only acceptable climbing areas.
5) As far as making up names, this occurred in 3 areas, all of them bolted sportclimbing spots. It is mostly a joke and a placeholder, until the true climb name was available. It says that right on each affected page, so no one is fooled. BFD. Why someone would think a little urban crag like Otay was too special to publish is beyond me. Gridbolting 20 foot routes is not exactly low impact either. Anyway, even five years after publishing it, hardly anyone goes there.
Publishing the info on Valley of the Moon probably raised the visitation level, but it's still acceptable. It was already becoming much less of a secret due to higher sportbolting levels. It's still guarded by a 4WD road.
The main impacts in this area are due to nonclimbers such as offroaders, campers, and illegal smugglers.
The other area is Corte Madera, in a national forest. You need only look at the El Nino crag to see that the route developers were not too concerned about impact. There were already a few routes on this crag. Most of the new rap bolted routes are good. But there are also a number of squeeze jobs. It seems that they were in a hurry to throw routes up to keep others from "stealing" any of "their" lines. Dave was already going to publish this area since the old brief photocopy was inadequate, and no longer available, and he and others had done some other routes.
As far as more insignificant whining about making up names, I seem to recall a certain Woodson local named Rick, a very lowkey guy, taking a look in the Amick's Woodson guide for some of the routes he had done. He was rather dubious about one of the route names. Not that he cared one iota. He was there to climb, not stew.
tom
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roughster
Oct 29, 2003, 5:33 AM
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In reply to: oh, btw, hey roughie -- a couple of folks wanna know exactly where and when you read "the guidebook problem", as you claim to have done so, prior to my posting it. because 'lil homie, those old Ascents are awfully hard to come by, and you are of a generation that for the most part is unaware of the magazine's existance, and the article has never been reprinted.
Perhaps you fail to realize that Ascent gets discussed on Rec.Climbing quite a bit. When I posted this thread:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=roughit3+guidebook+group:rec.climbing&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.climbing&selm=20020527045212.18085.00001083%40mb-cu.aol.com&rnum=2
I had several people email me about the guidebook issue, and one of them mentioned the article and sent me an electronic copy of it at my request.
I encourage everyone reading this thread to check out my post concerning of all things; guidebooks.
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roughster
Oct 29, 2003, 5:58 AM
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In reply to: "Roughster", You said someone "in the know" told you the robberies did not happen.
Actually I said ONE of the Bandito stories, the one specifically relayed at the campfire that night, was made up. I never claimed all were as is evident by my response to Sharpender and also by my 1st few posts where I talked about that very issue.
In case you missed it John, you were one of the people I was refering to that obviously have not gone back and read the thread from the beginning. You might want to if anything to avoid going down the same path over and over again as your last post does.
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ronamick
Oct 29, 2003, 7:53 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Godamn right moderators shouldn't participate in any debate they moderate! Where you come from boye?! Just because some of the hayseed yahoo moderators on this site gleefully dispense slander and insults like a condom machine at the Mustang Ranch doesn't make it right. When I start moderating in this thread, feel free to jump up and down and waive your arms. The rest of your statements amount to nothing more than baiting me, which I really could care less about. :D
Still unclear on the concept, I see. We shouldn't know when you "start moderating", because it is monitoring. The mod should be like a ref- invisible, and without influence on the out come of the contest.
I am not baiting you, I'm condescending to you. Everything I said is true. I just said it in that special sarcastic azzole way of mine that you love so much. Your attitude just begs for a verbal paddling, and alas, I'm too weak to resist. Anyway, 'nuff BS, let's get back to this Jr. high chick fight we got goin' on.
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ronamick
Oct 29, 2003, 8:11 AM
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BVB, ROUGHSTER; you bickering keyboard monkeys need to sit down and shut up. If you're going to stoop to shameless public mudslinging, at least make it entertaining to the rest of us. Beter yet, start a new thread titled "The Bob and Aaron Show", where there is no issue. You just bitch at each other non-stop. That way we can tune in to see if anyone has come up with funny slander, and if not, move on.
If you boys make me get up and come over there I'm gonna knock your heads together so hard It'll sound like a coconut hitting the sidewalk from the tenth floor balcony. You'll be seeing stars for days, and I'll get a little peace.
I do not need toddlers around the house again. I almost have mine processed out of the house.
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roughster
Oct 29, 2003, 8:17 AM
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In reply to: BVB, ROUGHSTER; you bickering keyboard monkeys need to sit down and shut up. If you're going to stoop to shameless public mudslinging, at least make it entertaining to the rest of us. Beter yet, start a new thread titled "The Bob and Aaron Show", where there is no issue. You just b---- at each other non-stop. That way we can tune in to see if anyone has come up with funny slander, and if not, move on. If you boys make me get up and come over there I'm gonna knock your heads together so hard It'll sound like a coconut hitting the sidewalk from the tenth floor balcony. You'll be seeing stars for days, and I'll get a little peace. I do not need toddlers around the house again. I almost have mine processed out of the house.
Yes Pops :lol: I swear Ron I have been trying to stick to the issue, but man it can be hard in this dog eat dog world!
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caughtinside
Oct 29, 2003, 5:17 PM
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Wow. This is one of the funniest threads I've read on here in a long time. The only impression I got was that the 'locals' didn't feel that DK was giving them enough respect and are now hopping mad about it. How dare YOU write a guide to MY area!?!?!
Aaron hit one issue right on the head. If he does publish a guide, all you anti-guide whiners are going to line up to buy it.
What's really comical is the worry about the masses descending on CT. It's in Mexico!
You don't own it, even if you feel like you do.
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Re: Canon Tajo Guidebook???
[
