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micronut
Apr 8, 2005, 1:20 AM
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i'm putting up an awesome new route. there is only one problem: about 10 feet off the ground it has a sustained crux section with no obvious clipping stances for three or four moves, until you latch a good hold and settle your feet. by then you're way above where the first bolt would be. i thought, well, just place a high first bolt in the middle of the low crux section and stick clip it. but my main partner says that a stick clip would ruin the route, that i should place one lower bolt, then one with a chain draw that would be hard to clip somewhere in the crux section.
does a stick clip ruin a route? would you rather face a hard clip and not have to carry a stick?
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d1ll1gaf
Apr 8, 2005, 1:34 AM
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10ft off the ground? what does the landing look like? if it is a dangerous landing situation, stick clip it. if the landing is flat and could be protected with a bouldering pad, difficult clip
just my two cents
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kpj240789
Apr 8, 2005, 1:36 AM
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Stick clip
Please kill me before I ever consider that.
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vegastradguy
Apr 8, 2005, 2:11 AM
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well, its sort of your choice. a bold style would be to place the first bolt from the first good rest- but then, you may limit traffic on the route because of this.
a safer option would be to alot for a stick-clipping option. many sport climbers carrry a stick clip anyway and it is not exactly uncommon to stick clip the first bolt, esp. if the landing is bad and the crux is off the deck.
its really your choice- pick the option that goes with your personal ethic regarding route development....
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republiclimber
Apr 8, 2005, 2:37 AM
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there is nothing wrong with a stick clip...what is wrong is taking stupid risk. stick clip it or be pretty darn sure you can hold on and clip.
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jakedatc
Apr 8, 2005, 2:42 AM
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yup.. base it off the landing area..
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cam
Apr 8, 2005, 4:23 AM
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Here's the thing...no matter what style or ethic you chose to uphold when you bolt the climb, every other person who climbs it is going to do so in the way that THEY see fit. Some will most certainly climb it as they believe the FA intended and others will not give a crap opting to climb it as they want.
Stick clipping bolts definately ruins the climb...for those who don't like the old stick clip. The question is, why do they care?
I think that placing the first bolt really high ruins the climb. What's with the macho bullshit "ethic" that says the first bolt has to be high enough to possibly get hurt if you fall off trying to clip it?
Then again, my 16 foot stick clip, 3 foot or so reach and 6' 1" height means I can clip a bolt just over 20 feet off the deck. So, put the first bolt as high as you want to. Those with stick clips can likely reach it and those without may just Darwin themselves out of the equation.
I had not intended to write a rant but upon review it seem I have. Oh well, whatever. My point is, do it how you feel it should be done. You can't please everyone, so why bother trying?
cam.
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saskclimber
Apr 8, 2005, 6:15 AM
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In reply to: You can't please everyone, so why bother trying? |
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viciado
Apr 8, 2005, 10:02 AM
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Place the bolt in good rock where you have determined that it will best serve the purpose and allow the climbers to decide how to clip it.
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mr8615
Apr 8, 2005, 12:13 PM
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How high is the first good rest? How is the landing? If this climb becomes popular then people will plan accordingly (bring stick clip if they choose, bring crashpad if they don't). It doesn't make sense to make the crux section harder by adding a clip part way through. It would be much more natural to just move through the section and clip at a 'good' rest that follows. I know it would ruin a good crux, for me, to have to stop and clip partway through.
Mark
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talons05
Apr 8, 2005, 1:01 PM
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It's your responsibility as a first ascentionist to make the climb safe. I agree that a clip right in the middle of the crux section would be dissapointing. If you want your route to flow and become a "classic" then you should probably opt for the stick clip. As has been said already, most sport climbers carry these anyway.
BUT - It's your route, so make sure that it climbs the way that YOU want it to.
Cheers,
A.w.
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hiram
Apr 8, 2005, 1:05 PM
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i have to go to work each day so i can make money to pay my bills and buy climbing equip. therefore i cannot afford a broken leg (no pun intended)......
i have no problem using my stick clip.....
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kenjo
Apr 8, 2005, 1:30 PM
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You don't want a low first bolt because you'd climb the crux under the impression that you're safe. Which you're not. Put in a high first bolt to stick clip, so that a fall doesn't slam you into the wall or put on you the ground floor. How does using a stick clip ruin a route? Some of the best sport routes I've done have required a stick clip.
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organic
Apr 8, 2005, 1:51 PM
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NO ROUTES require a stick clip. If you bolt a route in the middle of a crux especially routes harder than 10, that kind of ruins it for the people who don't stick clip! If you cannot clip the bolt don't place it there. Now people are freakin' bolting for stick clips? What is the world coming to.... Have a bold style come on.
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saskclimber
Apr 8, 2005, 2:04 PM
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In reply to: Have a bold style come on. |
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landgolier
Apr 8, 2005, 2:19 PM
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Man, do it how you want, take people's advice into account but don't listen to the assholes who try to make their opinions sound like facts. The point of climbing in any style other than free solo is to be safe if you fall. Obviously I haven't seen the route, but I think one thing that bolters often miss is that the first bolt needs to be high enough to give you a fighting chance if you fall trying to make the second clip. This of course depends on the sketch factor of the stance for the second clip, but nothing makes me smack my head like homer simpson more than first bolts that are like 7-8 feet off the ground. What is that thing for? Unless the landing is a pit of spikes, the 2 foot range where it does you any good is crash pad/spotting territory, and after that all it does is make it harder to belay.
You could easily raise any sport route a couple grades just by putting bolts in at the cruxes, but that's not the point of sport bolting. It's no different than in trad, where a route might get graded a little harder if the only pro available for a good stretch requires placing gear at the crux. Granted in a perfect world people would give it the same grade it would get on toprope and just stick an R on the end, but I think we all know that's not how grading happens in the real world.
OK, I'm rambling, back to work.
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olderic
Apr 8, 2005, 2:20 PM
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In reply to: It's your responsibility as a first ascentionist to make the climb safe.
Disaggree wuth that one. YOU are responsible for your safety - don't pass the buck. Unless you are involved with opening the route for some non personal reason (commercial usage).
In this case I would go with what seems to be the consensus - don't force a midcrux clip. Put it high and let people clip it as they see fit.
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mr8615
Apr 8, 2005, 3:00 PM
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I've done a few routes with a low crux and a first bolt after the crux. I've fallen on one of them more than once without stickclipping. The landing isn't great, but with an attentive belayer/spotter I was fine. When I finally sent I was more satisfied than if I had stickclipped the first bolt. That's my personal feeling and I've seen tons of others on the same route with the first bolt stickclipped and they seemed to enjoy it as well. Risk vs. Reward is a personal thing and it's not your responsibility to make that choice for people. Like I said before, place bolts where a logical clipping stance happens, this is natural and will make climbing your line more enjoyable for everyone. People who want to stickclip will bring a stick to reach it.
Mark
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yetanotherdave
Apr 8, 2005, 3:02 PM
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In reply to: i have to go to work each day so i can make money to pay my bills and buy climbing equip. therefore i cannot afford a broken leg (no pun intended)
I'll second that.
If you're rap-bolting, placing bolts in anything other than the safest locations is just bad design, IMHO. If that means a stick-clip, so be it.
If you're placing on-sight, on lead, that's a different story, but I don't think that's the case here...
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fracture
Apr 8, 2005, 3:11 PM
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In reply to: Have a bold style come on.
If this is a sport route (i.e. you are rap-bolting it, etc), anyone talking about boldness should be ignored. They obviously do not understand sport climbing.
Place the bolts the way that protects the route the safest. Stick clipping is standard practice, so if the best way to protect the beginning is with a high, stick-clipped first bolt, do it.
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cchildre
Apr 8, 2005, 3:39 PM
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My Opinion is that you try to bolt the section as best you can for a lead with no stick clip. It leaves the option to the climber if they want to climb to the first bolt or clip it. I personally prefer to stick it to the first bolt if for nothing else than for personal safety. This is really a judgement call on your part, so make your call and the community will decided if it chose well as we climb your work. Without seeing the line it is difficult for any of us to say. You could CHIP out a clipping hold!!!!!!!!! LOL.... Is it getting hot in here because here comes the flames!!!! That is a big ethical No No in most books, and I by no means advocate the practice. Hell you should just glue a hood ordnament to the wall and use that for the clipping hold!!! LMFAO Name it "My other route is a Mercedes!" I think I hear Edge getting out his #6 Hex to bash my skull...LOL. Just stay safe and thanks for bolting up new routes bro.
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micronut
Apr 8, 2005, 3:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Have a bold style come on. If this is a sport route (i.e. you are rap-bolting it, etc), anyone talking about boldness should be ignored. They obviously do not understand sport climbing. Place the bolts the way that protects the route the safest. Stick clipping is standard practice, so if the best way to protect the beginning is with a high, stick-clipped first bolt, do it.
o.k., there have been a lot of well thought out opinions articulated already, and i agree with most perspectives. let me be a little more specific:
as fracture pointed out, this is a SPORT climb, i'm rap bolting, top-rope reherse, etc.... i also would like to point out that i have established many routes on lead, ground up.
now to the route itself. it starts with a couple of easy, 4th class almost, moves to a big stance where your feet are roughly 5 feet off the ground, head 10 to 11 feet up. this is where one possible first bolt could be. but then it launches into wierd, off balance moves for four moves before you latch a positve hold with feet, at which time you'd be at groundfall. now let's talk about the landing. there is a huge boulder directly behind the start. falling off and making it is not an option.
i'm going to go tr it some more and give it a bunch more thought. maybe a quick waist clip to a fixed chain might be o.k.
or maybe I'll just leave it a TR. the whole thing brings up an issue for me: what exaclty is a lead? why is clipping close bolts worth more than a clean tr? maybe a whole other thread.
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texplorer
Apr 8, 2005, 4:05 PM
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Micro,
There have been alot of good points and I am also glad you are thinking so much BEFORE bolting the route.
From your description I find it a tough call where to bolt. From what I can tell, the main danger is moving through the last of the 4 move sequence. I think it is reasonable to place the bolt after this sequence as there are only a few moves where there is actual danger and an attentive and adept belayer might be able to cut down on that danger too. Those that wish to S.C. can and those who want to be bold can do so too. It is also admirable to understand that the route might be best left as a TR.
I must admit I think stick-clipping is cheating for myself but I understand that many do it and that is ok. I never think you should put in a bolt for stick-clipping. Stick clips can reach almost any first or second bolt anyway.
Good Luck,
Tex
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watchme
Apr 8, 2005, 4:07 PM
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If the anchors are easy to get to, there is nothing wrong with leaving it a top rope. There is also nothing wrong with making the first bolt placement high enough to require a stick clip, nor is there anything wrong with slapping a bolt in that crux section and letting people figure it out.
It sounds like you are experienced, and have your ego in check so that you can make a good decision and put up a route for us and not just for yourself.
I'm also psyched that you are thinking about this. You want people to climb your route and say "Man, what a great line with perfectly placed bolts". Take your time, and do a good job.
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