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everythingelse
Dec 30, 2005, 5:47 AM
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First of, one of the aspect that makes up my love for rock climbing is that most of the manufactures that make the gear that I buy do it because they want to make good gear and do not do it for the buck. This is hard to find in this day in age.
Not only are they not trying to rip the consumer off, they also are attempting to give back to this earth that we all reside in (a good example of this is Patagonia). Along with all this most of these companies are locally owned and operated and do not use cheap labor to make there products.
All these things are very important to me and I struggle a lot when purchasing products, but when I buy my rock gear I usually feel better with my purchase.
But I am starting to see some of this slipping. For example prAna getting bought out by Liz Claiborne and also Mad rock making their shoes in China.
I’d like to know if anyone out there has any info on the morals and/or ethics behind mad rocks manufacturing and business, and if it is even true that they are having there shoes manufactured in China.
p.s. I own a pair of mad rock shoes and they have treated me well so far
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tattooed_climber
Dec 30, 2005, 6:02 AM
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WTF!!!!...climbing related in community!!!! BLASPHEME!
hummm....look at alot of companies, dog eat dog...
Chouinard hiccuped and went bye-bye
black diamond owns franklin, beal, scrapa, and someone else
(EDIT, BIBLER TENTS)
msr, cascade, platapus, thermarest and afew other guys merged way back
adidas owns asolo who owns arc'teryx (arc'teryx, a company that STARTED by making harnesses and slings now makes GREAT yet over priced out door clothing)
madrock undercuts the industry with china production effecting lots of companys
la sportiva merged with someone and nearly killed lasportiva(and whom?????the evil The North Face)..sportiva shares were resold back to the original owner and now we have a good company again...
Wildcountry owns/merged with DMM
rock empire makes uber cheap gear due to the fact that its cheap to make it in chek republic
trango makes their gear in korea but claims all workers in that factory are climbers
arc'teryx has some of their gear made in vietnam (claims is a good factory)
MEC owns serratus
petzl owns charlet mozer who owns grivel
Satan bought The North Face whom bought A5
metolius owns lucky (based in Spain) who makes all their biners and other forged stuff
then there's histories with patents (petzl and trango split up the Spiter Gear patents and the big bro patent trango got when Mountain Hardware was boughtout by old serria design employees to creat Mountain Hardwear )
yuppie based Prana bought by liz claiwhogivesafucknotanyrealclimbersborne
companies buy other companies to make money....sometimes it helps though.....arc'teryx could barely pay its employees and a majority of its work is still done in vancouver, BC)
and merging does help to simplify the industry at times...
but to the OP, there's lots of dirt out there...
NOTE;....sorry, i not sure the deal with all the companies mention whether it was a boughtout or merged or what.....
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dingus
Dec 30, 2005, 7:05 AM
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In reply to: WTF!!!!...climbing related in community!!!! BLASPHEME! hummm....look at alot of companies, dog eat dog... Chouinard hiccuped and went bye-bye black diamond owns franklin, beal, scrapa, and someone else (EDIT, BIBLER TENTS) msr, cascade, platapus, thermarest and afew other guys merged way back adidas owns asolo who owns arc'teryx (arc'teryx, a company that STARTED by making harnesses and slings now makes GREAT yet over priced out door clothing) madrock undercuts the industry with china production effecting lots of companys la sportiva merged with someone and nearly killed lasportiva(and whom?????the evil The North Face)..sportiva shares were resold back to the original owner and now we have a good company again... Wildcountry owns/merged with DMM rock empire makes uber cheap gear due to the fact that its cheap to make it in chek republic trango makes their gear in korea but claims all workers in that factory are climbers arc'teryx has some of their gear made in vietnam (claims is a good factory) MEC owns serratus petzl owns charlet mozer who owns grivel Satan bought The North Face whom bought A5 metolius owns lucky (based in Spain) who makes all their biners and other forged stuff then there's histories with patents (petzl and trango split up the Spiter Gear patents and the big bro patent trango got when Mountain Hardware was boughtout by old serria design employees to creat Mountain Hard wear ) yuppie based Prana bought by liz claif---borne companies buy other companies to make money....sometimes it helps though.....arc'teryx could barely pay its employees and a majority of its work is still done in vancouver, BC) and merging does help to simplify the industry at times... but to the OP, there's lots of dirt out there... NOTE;....sorry, i not sure the deal with all the companies mention whether it was a boughtout or merged or what.....
That was pretty good, thanks. I have no way of knowing how accurate all this is, but you sure do type a good game! Thanks.
Seriously.
DMT
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tradgal
Dec 30, 2005, 2:37 PM
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Columbia owns Mountain hardwear
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thorne
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Dec 30, 2005, 3:13 PM
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In reply to: Not only are they not trying to rip the consumer off, they also are attempting to give back to this earth that we all reside in (a good example of this is Patagonia). Along with all this most of these companies are locally owned and operated and do not use cheap labor to make there products.
Several years back, I heard a rumor that Patagonia used cheap "third world" labor to make its clothes. Can anyone shed some light on this?
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tradgal
Dec 30, 2005, 3:19 PM
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My Patagonia fleece was "assembled in Mexico" and my Patagonia down jacket was "made in China"
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macherry
Dec 30, 2005, 3:31 PM
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macherry moved this thread from Community to Gear Heads.
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paganmonkeyboy
Dec 30, 2005, 4:07 PM
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If a new company was to start production in the states, and make quality gear but it cost a little more - would people be willing to pay a premium for the stuff ?? In this the golden age of malmart, and with most climbers I know not exactly rolling in cash, could such an enterprise survive, nay, thrive in the current socio-economic conditions ?
One wonders...seems like everything is made somewhere else these days, and I wonder how many workers at the factory my new marmot shell came from actually get to go climbing/skiing...
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roy_hinkley_jr
Dec 30, 2005, 4:15 PM
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In reply to: hummm....look at alot of companies, dog eat dog...
Tattoed, spreading crap like that doesn't help anyone. Suffice to say, that list is riddled with big errors...it's more than 50% incorrect!
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thomasribiere
Dec 30, 2005, 4:19 PM
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In reply to: That was pretty good, thanks. I have no way of knowing how accurate all this is, but you sure do type a good game! Thanks.
It's the problem with some (young) users. They talk loud and with determination, and you could so believe everything they say. But I would not eat that 100%. No source...
By example, I believed that BD was partner of Béal and was distributing the french ropes in the USA, but I'm not sure that BD owns Béal. But that's what I believe, and I would appreciate to be contradicted with a proof.
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kylekienitz
Dec 30, 2005, 4:23 PM
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What's the deal with Omega Pacific previously producing their gear with prison workers? It sounded like a pretty good deal to me. New legislation outlawed it or something?
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curt
Dec 30, 2005, 4:39 PM
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In reply to: If a new company was to start production in the states, and make quality gear but it cost a little more - would people be willing to pay a premium for the stuff ?? In this the golden age of malmart, and with most climbers I know not exactly rolling in cash, could such an enterprise survive, nay, thrive in the current socio-economic conditions ?
It seems the answer is "no." La Sportiva, long known for their Italian shoe manufacturing quality, now has their shoes made in China. I suspect Mad Rock has forced all if its competition to find less expensive means of production. I'm not saying that is good or bad, it's just an observation.
Curt
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everythingelse
Dec 30, 2005, 4:39 PM
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it is a fact that prAna is now owned by liz claiborne (check out her web sight http://www.lizclaiborneinc.com/ourbrands/default.asp)
and that mad rock makes there shoes in china (check your shoes tag)
the rest i have no idea about
one thing that will soon be incorrect is that starting next week (jan. 1 2006) scarpa will no longer be part of BD and will be there own company
but thanks for pointing out some possible flows in companies we usually trust
pwigg
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mjr
Dec 30, 2005, 4:44 PM
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In reply to: What's the deal with Omega Pacific previously producing their gear with prison workers? It sounded like a pretty good deal to me. New legislation outlawed it or something?
Google for 'omega pacific prison':
http://www.spokanejournal.com/index.php?id=article&sub=2004&keyword=
And the Washington Supreme Court said 'don't do that'.
I thought I had read elsewhere that they had intended to stop basically because they were tired of people slagging them about it. I thought they had a statement on their web site for a while, but a google search 'prison site:omegapac.com' doesn't bring up any results...
Mike
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abe_ascends
Dec 30, 2005, 5:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What's the deal with Omega Pacific previously producing their gear with prison workers? It sounded like a pretty good deal to me. New legislation outlawed it or something? Google for 'omega pacific prison': http://www.spokanejournal.com/index.php?id=article&sub=2004&keyword= And the Washington Supreme Court said 'don't do that'. I thought I had read elsewhere that they had intended to stop basically because they were tired of people slagging them about it. I thought they had a statement on their web site for a while, but a google search 'prison site:omegapac.com' doesn't bring up any results... Mike |
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anykineclimb
Dec 30, 2005, 5:10 PM
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In reply to: WTF!!!!...climbing related in community!!!! BLASPHEME! hummm....look at alot of companies, dog eat dog... Chouinard hiccuped and went bye-bye black diamond owns franklin, beal, scarpa, and someone else (EDIT, BIBLER TENTS) Beal is distibuted by BD. not owned...I THINK the same may go for Scarpa. Also, Franklin name owned by Trango now msr, cascade, platapus, thermarest and a few other guys merged way back all of which are owned by REI adidas owns asolo who owns arc'teryx (arc'teryx, a company that STARTED by making harnesses and slings now makes GREAT yet over priced out door clothing) Salomon division (which includes Salomon, Mavic, Bonfire, Arc’Teryx, and Cliché )of Adidas-Salomon was sold to Amer Sports (known mainly for Wilson Athletic. Asolo has nothing to do with these companies
BTW Asolo is owned by Benetton. you know. United Colours of Benetton?
Also includes Nordica, Prince, Rollerblade, Kästle and Killer Loop madrock undercuts the industry with china production effecting lots of companys la sportiva merged with someone and nearly killed lasportiva(and whom?????the evil The North Face)..sportiva shares were resold back to the original owner and now we have a good company again... Wildcountry owns/merged with DMM Don't forget Red Chili rock empire makes uber cheap gear due to the fact that its cheap to make it in chek republic trango makes their gear in korea but claims all workers in that factory are climbers arc'teryx has some of their gear made in vietnam (claims is a good factory) MEC owns serratus petzl owns charlet mozer who owns grivel Satan bought The North Face whom bought A5 metolius owns lucky (based in Spain) who makes all their biners and other forged stuff Lucky makes gear for Metolius but isn't owned by them. then there's histories with patents (petzl and trango split up the Splitter |
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roy_hinkley_jr
Dec 30, 2005, 5:18 PM
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Wow, the wrong answers keep pouring in. Curt is 95% wrong. AKC is largely incorrect on the corrections. Keep it up, this is entertaining! :lol:
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maldaly
Dec 30, 2005, 5:28 PM
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good effort, tattooed_climber, you got most of it right. Of the big clothing companies, Patagonia and Outdoor Research are about the only independents left.
Columbia owns Mountain Hardware
K2 owns 33 brands including Marmot, Dana Designs, Morrow and Ride snowboards, Tubbs and Atlas, Hawk and Shakespere
Liz Claiborne owns 40 brands including Prana, DKNY, Lucky(Jeans not carabiners) and Kenneth Cole
Timberland bought SmartWool
Asolo owns Lowe Alpine
Adidas owns Salomon which owns Arc'Teryx although Salomon recently split and took Arc'Teryx with it.
Vanity Fair owns 48 brands including Jan Sport, North Face, EastPack, Nautica, Wrangler and Lee jeans and Reef Sandals.
Most of the hardware companies are either independent or owned by other hardware companies.
BD owns Bibler, Franklin, Ascension (Skins)
Petzl bought Charlet Moser and is morphing the brand from Charlet Moser to Petzl Charlet and, soon, just Petzl
Wichard bought Simond
Mammut bought Climb High
Wild Country bought DMM
LaFuma bought Millet, One Sport, Rivory Joanny and Cousin
Beal bought Edelweis
I don't think Metolius owns Lucky
And last but not least, Great Trango Holdings owns Trango, Stonewear Designs and e-Grips.
So, as you can see, the family tree of the outdoor industry is actually a wreath (Merry Christmas) and, as far as I can tell, everyone in the outdoor industry has worked for everyone else.
As far as offshore manufacturing goes, get over it. We are in a world economy now, like it or not, and we, as climbing gear manufacturers, have, and will, always make our gear in the best place possible. Trango manufactures gear in the USA, France, Italy, Czech Republic, Taiwan and Korea. BD makes gear in the USA, Philippines, Vietnam, France and China. Petzl manufactures in France, USA and China. And I think you'd be pretty naked if you tried to outfit yourself in outdoor clothing that was made in the USA. The reality is that the best sewing in the world right now is being done in China and Korea. That's where all the paraglider wings, racing sails and parachutes are coming from. Kudos to Madrock for waking up the climbing shoe industry by manufacturing in China and bringing high performance shoes to our world at reasonable prices. The rest of the sporting world discovered that 15 years ago.
While there may still be sweatshop labor producing for the Wal Marts of the world, the outdoor comapnies all support fair labor standards and work hard to make sure that the employees are treated with honor and dignity. The workers at our Korean partner's factory are all paid well enough to support a family, have health insurance, pension and death benefits. And they're all climbers, too.
One of the best books I've read in the last year it Thomas Friedman's, The Flat World. It's a humbling wake-up call for everyone who is wondering what happened. In it he outlines the history of how and why manufacturing and support services have moved offshore and why it's a trend that will only continue with R&D, medical support and back office services. It's a must read. Since I'm on a book review kick, I'll mention the one area I think he completely missed. At some point in the next quarter century, the cost to transport items manufactured offshore will exceed the cost and quality benefits of offshore production and the smart companies will begin to re-invest in domestic production. It's inevitable.
Mal
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grovehunter
Dec 30, 2005, 5:29 PM
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[
In reply to: But I am starting to see some of this slipping. For example prAna getting bought out by Liz Claiborne and also Mad rock making their shoes in China. I’d like to know if anyone out there has any info on the morals and/or ethics behind mad rocks manufacturing and business, and if it is even true that they are having there shoes manufactured in China. p.s. I own a pair of mad rock shoes and they have treated me well so far
There is a fine line between the two. Essentially it comes down to (Greed) also known as the bottom line, MONEY. When it comes to money there is no such thing as morals, just get the money. Some companies couldn't handle TQM (Total Quality Management) Techniques so favored by Demming, and they have gone back to reckless marketing ideals and shine the customer service part or the quality. They will tell you anything you want to hear to get your dollar. It's just like a guy who wants in a girls pants, he'll tell her anything to get some 'Tang, and if she likes the pitch then ring up another sale. This is one side of the line.
Some serious overhead and costs go into forming and operating a business. As a result of that, management is constantly searching for new ways to cut costs and market a product that is affordable to manufacture and still compete with the competition! And make a killing!! When it comes down to it the lion is going to get his share. Your job in all of this is being a good consumer. When you repeatedly buy junk then it forces the market to make junk so it can keep up with the proverbial "Jonses". I hear things like, "Its the same thing", or "Its cheaper". Companies once known for great quality, and who are dealing with a market flooded with cheap knock offs, must cut corners somehow to survive! Don't Buy junk!!! when people stop buying the junk goods, then these little grunt manufacturers must close up shop and go home, usually with a bunch of arrows in thier ass.....
Peace,
Chuck
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curt
Dec 30, 2005, 5:35 PM
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In reply to: Wow, the wrong answers keep pouring in. Curt is 95% wrong. AKC is largely incorrect on the corrections. Keep it up, this is entertaining! :lol:
I'm 95% wrong? My new La Sportivas are made in China.
And, perhaps you should listen to Mal Daly.
In reply to: Kudos to Madrock for waking up the climbing shoe industry by manufacturing in China and bringing high performance shoes to our world at reasonable prices. The rest of the sporting world discovered that 15 years ago.
Curt
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grovehunter
Dec 30, 2005, 5:42 PM
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Maldaly is right about the market globalization, get used to it fast 'cause its not going away. I don't really care where its made if quality and price are not sacrificed to make the product. The Idea of corporations buying eachother out or merging isn't a new concept either. I can't not agree with Mal's post because he's right as much as I don't like it, And let's face it we want good quality, but we never want to pay for it.
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landgolier
Dec 30, 2005, 5:46 PM
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Here's another one: of the big boys (Mal's list is good), how many are publicly traded?
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crackers
Dec 30, 2005, 5:54 PM
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Since I own part of a factory sewing stuff over in Turkey, and I've visited an aweful lot of other factories involved in contract work in the outdoor sports industry, may I make two simple points?
The value of the materials used in these products tends to be relatively expensive. You don't give expensive cloth to idiots to sew, and just through economic self preservation, climbing clothes and gear tend to manufactured in much better than average factories.
It is pretty much cost prohibitive to manufacture most of these products in the US. For example, it might take 1 hour total to make a 60 liter backpack. If one is paying a US machine operator $25 an hour, that would add something in the vicinity of $45 to the manufacturer's costs. That $200 backpack would cost $300. IMHO, the utility curve for a new backpack drops precipitiously at that kind of cost.
I agree with Mal that some manufacturing will shift back to the states (and europe) in the next 10-15 years. I disagree with him about the best sewers. The best cut and sew factories (that means sweaters btw) are in Korea. The best seam welders are in Korea and Turkey. The best pack sewers are in Turkey, Vietnam and Malaysia. Airfoils are in Korea, Vietnam, South Africa and Slovenia. Non-technical garments are dependent on the fiber. anyway...
happy new year!
graham
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hoofers_andy
Dec 30, 2005, 5:57 PM
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nice explanation Mal. it seems like those who don't understand globalization just dont understand economics. i don't claim to be an expert, but the only concepts needed to pass econ 101 are supply and demand and comparative advantage. and if i can still remember that three years after taking that boring-ass class, it obviously is something applicable to the real world.
i also like your theory about transportation costs, but only time will tell.
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mjr
Dec 30, 2005, 6:13 PM
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In reply to: It is pretty much cost prohibitive to manufacture most of these products in the US. For example, it might take 1 hour total to make a 60 liter backpack. If one is paying a US machine operator $25 an hour, that would add something in the vicinity of $45 to the manufacturer's costs. That $200 backpack would cost $300. IMHO, the utility curve for a new backpack drops precipitiously at that kind of cost. graham
Thanks to you and Malcolm for all the information. Just for my own enlightment, how do these numbers add up? I think the markup is usually twice, so that's how you get from $45 to $100. $25/hour adds $45 to the cost of a backpack - in the sewing industry is salary a little under half the total burden (ie, salary, factory space, benefits, etc)?
Mike
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