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drfelatio
Mar 30, 2007, 5:09 AM
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I recently let a friend borrow my rack. I knew full well that this person had never led trad before but that they were going to learn from some very reputable sources how to do so. Anyway, following their instruction (which involved a TR backed-up fall onto a tri-cam) my friend decided that they wanted to take a few more falls to become more acclimated to falling on gear. Now I know that when I allowed this person to borrow my gear I also allowed them to fall on it, but does that include falls that are taken on purpose? Is it ok to purposely take falls on gear you've borrowed from other people?
I'm a little upset that this person felt that it was ok to fall all over my gear even though they didn't need to. I have always been under the impression that if you don't need to fall on a piece then you don't fall on it. Am I just overreacting or should I be upset? This person is nice enough, but I just feel a little taken advantage of. Is this feeling justified?
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vegastradguy
Mar 30, 2007, 5:15 AM
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you lent it out, knowing full well it may see falls. such is life. (of course, i'd still give your gear a close inspection upon return- if anything looks damaged, make sure they replace it for you)
that said, i'd never loan my rack out to anyone who wasn't capable of using it-- if they are going to learn trad using my rack, i'm coming along with it. anyone who is willing to teach someone how to use gear should have the gear to teach them with.....
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granite_grrl
Mar 30, 2007, 12:39 PM
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What was the damage? What was the peice he fell on? I guess if I borrowed gear, fell on it (intentional or not) and damaged it to beyond safe use then I would replace it....but I'm having a hard time thinking of a situation that I might do this (my husband once sheared off the cam stops of my purple TCU, and he replaced it, but that was a unique situation).
If it was just normal wear and tear on the gear after a fall (gear not really damaged) I would not replace it. You should expect small amount of wear and tear if your gear is being used.
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king_rat
Mar 30, 2007, 12:51 PM
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I think you have a right to be unhappy, but I don't think you can necessarily blame your friend. A new person to climbing my not be sensitive to the niceties of borrowing other peoples gear. If they are a true friend, then just tell them in an un-antagonistic way.
As for whether they should replace the peace of gear, falling a short distance on to cam or large nut, is unlikely to do anything but cosmetic damage. Have a look at it and check to see if there is any more significant damage If there is then have a chat with your friend.
Otherwise just put this down to one of life’s many lessons and be more circumspect next time you lend things to beginners.
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svilnit
Mar 30, 2007, 1:21 PM
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What sort of person is teaching someone how to place gear, and fall on said gear, without having any themselves?
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wanderlustmd
Mar 30, 2007, 1:33 PM
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Well yes and no. On one hand, you lent it out to a noob, so game over. On the other, who ever was teaching them didn't have adequate gear? Did the student have to supply gear since part of the course was falling on gear and the company didn't want the liability of using gear that is fallen on all the time (lame)? Something is screwy there. In the courses I took, the strength of the gear was illustrated via example, not test falls (in avalanche/crevasse rescue we placed a single picket and then the class of 20 heaved on it for nearly 5 minutes before it popped). I know it's probably more common than I've seen, but I've never seen a class do that.
I understand that what is in question is the principle behind what took place, but push = shove it's "only" a tricam. And you did lend him your rack knowing he was a noon At least he didn't trash three cams! I'd be nice about it, but explain to him that while climbing gear is made to endure lots of stress, unnecessary stress is ususally avoided. Then maybe to a little research on the "reputable source" without any climbing gear....
 Matt
(This post was edited by wanderlustmd on Mar 30, 2007, 1:34 PM)
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skinnyclimber
Mar 30, 2007, 1:38 PM
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Yeah borrowing gear is a touch subject. I would not loan out gear to anyone who is not a copmetent trad leader. I would also make sure I told them in a nice way that if the gear was fallen on I wanted to which peiced and what the falls were like (FF, bending/tweaking of gear) just so I know the history and can make a judgement myself. I think that unfortunately for you, you will have to just "take it", and next time if there is one make sure your loanee will know the conditions of gear loans.
When I borrow gear, or use my friends cams for a pitch, I always place my own gear in places I think I might fall, but I'm obsessive about my gear and also it's new so I like to use it...
The subject of intentional falls onto trad gear is a touchy one. I've only ever lowered off my gear so far, and that has given me a huge amount of confidence in the placements (and now I trust small cams!!)
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microbarn
Mar 30, 2007, 1:40 PM
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you are over reacting
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drfelatio
Mar 30, 2007, 3:16 PM
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Thank you everyone for your responses. I think you guys are right. I just have to mark this down as one of life's little lessons and prepare myself better for it in the future. I could have done more to make my friend realize the responsibility they were assuming when using borrowed gear.
King rat, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think I have a right to be unhappy on principal, but my friend was ignorant and that was my fault.
The gear looks fine. She fell on a tri-cam, a nut, and some cams, but they all look fine to me.
Thanks everyone for your input.
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dingus
Mar 30, 2007, 3:27 PM
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This little drama gets played out on job sites across the world every day.
Apprentice borrows journeyman's tools, misuses them and incurs the wrath of of the guild.
A few observations:
1. A man takes care of the tools that take care of him. That's something every journeyperson knows (even if they haven't articulated it that way). And its something every apprentice needs to hear a few times.
2. Master craftsman never lend out their best or most important tools.
3. If they DO lend them out its with explicit instruction and liabilty... misuse it and you own it, full replacement value.
4. Even then there should be some tools you don't lend out. My HB Offsets for example, I'm not lending to god or anyone. Well, I'd lend em to Angus, Burl or Brutus now that I think about it.
The reaction within the tribes varies. Some go for the old testament biblical response; the wrath of god response. Others try to take a more gentle approach. Some are natural born coachers and every tool-drama is a chance to teach.
Why not take that line with your noob friend? Insteand of being irritated at the silly wingnut, realize that tool savy doesn't come natural to an awful lot of folk, an awful lot (most of us I'd dare say).
Teach the craftsman's reverence for fine tools, put that Noob on The Path.
But warn them about tool envy and emotional tool buying too.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Mar 30, 2007, 3:29 PM)
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kevinheiss
Mar 30, 2007, 8:23 PM
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This is the reason why I don't let people borrow my gear. I don't know what they have done to it. Of course if my partner is leading a pitch, then that's a different story.
As for purposely falling on gear which you borrowed, I think that really unfair to you and it was not your intentions when you leant him your gears. I would also be really upset.
Better safe then sorry, that's what I think at least.
Kevin
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caughtinside
Mar 30, 2007, 11:08 PM
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you know, I'm sorry, I'm just sitting here laughing. There are so many different ways to learn to build anchors, place gear, climb, etc. And this is the first time I've heard of the "take intentional wingers all over your friend's gear" method.
I can imagine it now...
"ok, so you've placed a nut in the constriction, n00b, how does it look?"
"ok... I think?"
"Excellent. Now climb up 15 feet and jump!"
"...ok...?"
"you know, if you had told me 10 years ago that I was going to solve all the world's energy problems, I would have said you were crazy. Now help me push this big ball of oil out this window."
At least that's how I see it in my mind.
But someone else raised another good point! Who is this Jedi trad master, responsible for n00bs safety, who is having them wing all over doktor bj's rack, and not their own?
Troll?
Conspiracy?
Incompetence?
You decide!!
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tradrenn
Mar 31, 2007, 12:06 AM
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drfelatio wrote: Thank you everyone for your responses. I think you guys are right. I just have to mark this down as one of life's little lessons and prepare myself better for it in the future. I could have done more to make my friend realize the responsibility they were assuming when using borrowed gear.
Make sure that doesn't mean that next time you will explain to them what responsibility means.
I think if you were to do that, they would never tell you that they did that.
As far as my rack is concern: I never leant it to anybody unless they are climbing with me.
(This post was edited by tradrenn on Mar 31, 2007, 12:07 AM)
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markc
Apr 2, 2007, 12:02 AM
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I'm not much for lending out gear. I don't have so many extra pieces that I can just pick up and go if something is lost. If a trusted partner needed something, that's one thing. I don't think I'd lend out my whole rack to a new leader without the understanding that they would treat it better than their own. That means replacement for any damaged or lost pro. That also means you don't beat up my gear unnecessarily.
If the gear looked okay upon return, I'd have a small discussion about etiquette of borrowing. For most leaders I know, they're not taking big falls on gear very often. As such, it's a bit outside what's expected. If you expect to take falls on my gear, let me know. If you know you want to do repeated practice falls, talk to me about it first. That way, we both know what we're agreeing to. Otherwise, I'd be a bit ticked off.
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coastal_climber
Apr 2, 2007, 12:09 AM
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Isn't it a general rule to never lend out your gear? The person borrowing it could be doing anything with it, and they may not tell you. I guess moral of the story: Don't lend your gear out.
>Cam
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markc
Apr 2, 2007, 2:02 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: Isn't it a general rule to never lend out your gear? The person borrowing it could be doing anything with it, and they may not tell you. I guess moral of the story: Don't lend your gear out.
I think it depends upon the situation. If one of my regular partners is heading to Indian Creek and needs to load up on cams (and I didn't have anything going on), no problem. I know how they take care of their gear, and I trust they'll be responsible with mine.
If some new leader is looking to get sponsored, I'd loan out my old Rock Empire cams without too much hesitation. They're cheap, and I don't carry them very often. With that and a few bucks for her own passive pro, a new leader could make a start.
In any event, I'm not big on loaning softworks. I'm happy to lend a harness or climb on my rope and gear when I'm there, but I wouldn't want to send my ropes off on a trip with someone else. An old harness wouldn't be a big deal. YMMV.
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clee03m
Apr 2, 2007, 2:05 PM
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She should have bought her own gear
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joeforte
Apr 2, 2007, 2:42 PM
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How was she taking practice falls on gear with a toprope backup? Were there 2 belayers?
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markc
Apr 2, 2007, 2:55 PM
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joeforte wrote: How was she taking practice falls on gear with a toprope backup? Were there 2 belayers?
I had a couple of buddies that did an intro placement/leading clinic at the Gunks years ago. IIRC, one would lead a pitch and place pro while his partner provided a lead belay. The instructor was backing up the lead belay with a loose TR belay. At various points, the instructor would throw extra slack into the system and have the leader fall to see if the protection held. It's old, second-hand knowledge, so take it for what it's worth.
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altelis
Apr 2, 2007, 3:02 PM
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I'm sorry you need to CTFO (or CHILL THE F%CK OUT)----
what is with this rediculous mentality that trad gear is like some last resort thing that could save your life but is treated like's also made of glass.
YOUR GEAR IS MADE TO STOP FALLS. TALK TO AID CLIMBERS who lob onto gear ALL THE TIME. Talk to people leading .11 and harder trad climbs. you fall on gear all the time. its ok.
if you lent out some draws to a friend to learn to sport climb, they took a practice fall onto a few bolts would you be so irrate? then why with gear? it (like draws) are there to catch falls. THAT IS THERE PURPOSE, their essence if you will. That is why they exist. Otherwise you are just strength training while free soloing, right?
NOW-i will admit the jedi master without their own gear is a little funny. But, whats wrong with falling onto gear with a top rope anchor. For those with no desire to aid, this seams like a great real world way for a person to see what works and what doesn't. eh.
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reg
Apr 2, 2007, 3:11 PM
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i love easy ones - you lent the gear - it's the borrowers decision what he's going to do with it and if damaged/lost/buggered/or in any way returned unsuitable in your mind, he should replace it without a quam. on the other hand you should expect it to be used and not be exactly as you lent it. i mean if you place a piece it's going to show signs of use. what if he was working on a problem and fell multiple times workin it out? when you lend that's what you should expector don't lend. MHO
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dingus
Apr 2, 2007, 3:23 PM
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altelis wrote: I'm sorry you need to CTFO (or CHILL THE F%CK OUT)---- what is with this rediculous mentality that trad gear is like some last resort thing that could save your life but is treated like's also made of glass. YOUR GEAR IS MADE TO STOP FALLS. NOW-i will admit the jedi master without their own gear is a little funny. But, whats wrong with falling onto gear with a top rope anchor.
Great counter points.
But I bet you don't work in the trades?
Consider a hammer. Its designed for pounding right? You use them to drive nails, pound recalcitrant 2x4s into line, threaten a coworker, you know... a hammer.
Pretty hard to abuse a hammer wouldn't you say?
Pickup a journeyman's hammer without asking, starting beating on something, see how long before the asschewing commences.
There are plenty of ways to abuse a hammer. And while the damage of a shaft strike might not bother you or I, that master carpenter who's owned that hammer for 11 years will certainly notice it. He notices every little blemish on his tools - he uses them every day and cares for them as if his living depended upon them.
Even a little nick would be noticable. And if the nick came at the hand of another? That nick would stand out like no other, rubbing the owner's hand the wrong way.
Now me? A hammer is a hammer dude. You wanna borrow my hammer no problem. Here ya go. Just get me another one if you break it.
Climbers have a similar spread of tudes regarding their tools. You'll have your 'no big deals' and you'll have your 'don't even LOOK at my gear.'
Just remember: The climber takes care of the gear that takes care of her.
Its OK to be picky about your gear. You'll be in some fine, old school company.
DMT
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altelis
Apr 2, 2007, 3:44 PM
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dingus----i was all ready to come back with some fine Logical retorts, like "TRUE but unrelated---you are using a false analogy" and such....
but then you included "Now me? A hammer is a hammer dude. You wanna borrow my hammer no problem. Here ya go. Just get me another one if you break it.
Climbers have a similar spread of tudes regarding their tools. You'll have your 'no big deals' and you'll have your 'don't even LOOK at my gear.'"
can't argue with that-----
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legion
Apr 2, 2007, 4:40 PM
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Looks like that cam in your profile pic is getting a little rusty. You should probably take a nice whipper on it to loosen up the corrosion, among other things.
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drfelatio
Apr 2, 2007, 5:34 PM
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legion wrote: Looks like that cam in your profile pic is getting a little rusty. You should probably take a nice whipper on it to loosen up the corrosion, among other things.
lol yeah. That's actually a bootied (sp?) cam. Relatively brand new #3 c4. That was a great day!
Alright well its nice to hear some different perspectives. I know trad gear is made to be fallen upon. I never denied that. I'm just of the opinion that those falls shouldn't be taken on purpose, [edit]at least not on gear that doesn't belong to you[/edit]. How would you feel if I borrowed your rope and then took some high Fall Factor falls on it (with a good backup) just to see what that experience would be like? Well the rope is designed to hold falls, isn't it?
[edited to clarify]
(This post was edited by drfelatio on Apr 2, 2007, 5:40 PM)
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