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gblauer
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Aug 16, 2007, 5:20 PM
Post #26 of 73
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Glad you are ok. I sent you a PM.
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vegastradguy
Aug 16, 2007, 5:22 PM
Post #27 of 73
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assuming the grigri was loaded correctly, that's alot of slack to be out.
i'm calling bullshit on some part of this story. not sure what- my suspicion, though, is that you weren't 30' up, and your buddy yarded out way too much slack, and the combination of the two led to your hitting the deck.
otherwise, your belayer would have had to yard out like.....5 FULL armlengths of slack- which i find hard to believe. one would be fine, two would be max. two would send you for a big ol' ride if you missed.
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NSFW
Aug 16, 2007, 5:26 PM
Post #28 of 73
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climbordie7 wrote: i know exactly how you feel, last summer i sprained my ankle really bad while i was bouldering. but the thing is i was only 2 feet off the ground in a gym with padded floor. i took a bad barn door and landed straight on the side of my ankle. i was out for a month with a retarted boot thing, when i got back on the wall i was nervous about climbing high at all, and then 5 months later i was working on roof in the cave with my climbing coach and took a really bad fall. i sprained the same ankle again, this time i was out for only 2 1/2 weeks though. ever since that i have been so afraid of respraining it. if i do i may need to get reconstructive surgery. but it took me like 8 months to get up the courage to start training on roof again. i was afraid of slipping off and taking that fall. i started again with a spotter a couple of tries a day. then i would work more and more. now i am very comfortable with roof stuff and i don't ask for a spotter, i have just accepted that there are certain things that i can't let get in my way. if i want to be good i can't be afraid. although in your case it is a matter of serious injury or death. next time i would make sure the belayer was someone who knew exactly what they were doing. you didn't specify if they did or not though. sorry about your scare, but don't let fear stop you. i can be a powerful influence in your climbing abilitys.
Listen to this guy, he knows what he's talking about. He has a wealth of experience.
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livinonasandbar
Aug 16, 2007, 5:27 PM
Post #29 of 73
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I often see belayers standing way out from the wall so they can watch the action without getting a sore neck. This position means they have more rope out than if they were next to the base of the wall. More rope means more stretch... which can have consequences.
Also, your belayer may have pulled out extra slack to allow you to squat down before leaping for the dyno. Maybe he/she didn't take up that extra slack quickly enough after you went for it.
Glad you're okay.
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climbordie7
Aug 16, 2007, 5:28 PM
Post #30 of 73
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one question, are you being serious or sarcastic?
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nunatak
Aug 16, 2007, 5:28 PM
Post #31 of 73
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This is a problem that I teach my students about when I teach lead climbing classes in the gym. When you lead in the gym you are always pretty close to the ground (by climbing standards). The clips are closer together, but you are not that far from the ground. Since this is the case, every little extra length of rope makes a big difference, because it all adds up. Standing a couple of feet back from the wall, a little slack in the rope so that you are not short roping, stretch in the rope (which you should not underestimate if you are using your own dynamic lead rope), and slip (or dynamic movement) in the belay. Add all of these things up and you are getting closer to the ground on a good fall. Add a couple of other small factors like giving out a bunch of rope to make a dyno and you are on the floor.
Some things that dont add up are the fact that your belayer was using a grigri, and the fact that the rope was not tight when you came to rest. The grigri is not a very dynamic belay device. It tends to lock without a lot of slipping. but, one thing that I have noticed when I watch people use grigris to lead, is that when they need to give a lot of slack (like in this scenario), the belayer tends to give too much slack because it is harder to efficiently pull extra rope out in a pinch with the grigri. Also, it is harder to quickly take up extra slack with the grigri, mostly because the rope does not run straight through the device. Also, depending on how your belayer pays out slack with the grigri, he may have grabbed the lever arm of the grigri, keeping the device from locking. Some folks push down on the lever arm with their palm or whole hand in order to give out a lot of slack while lead belaying. This can cause you to lock down on the arm as a reflex and keep the arm from lifting and locking the device. Does not happen often, but it does happen.
When I teach lead climbing in our gym, I let folks take lead falls while leading on an older rope that we no longer use for lead climbing, while the whole thing is backed up by top rope. This allows both the climber and the belayer to get a feel for a fall in a really safe environment. Every time we do this, people are always surprised at how far down the wall they end up from where they let go of the wall. I usually let people climb a couple of feet past there last draw and just let go and they always end up a good distance from that last draw they clipped. This is also a situation where the belayer knows that the climber is going to let got sooner rather then later, and they are being watched by the instructor and the class, and the cliber still ends up ten feet below the last anchor they clipped.
So, I guess the lesson here is be careful about how much slack you have out along the system when climbing in the gym.
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dreday3000
Aug 16, 2007, 5:29 PM
Post #32 of 73
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I totally agree with Reg that I am also at fault here.
Bottom line was that I was the one that choose to try this crazy sideways dyno thing. The clips were in the right places, but I realized the inherent danger in the move. I weighed the danger of the move against my partners experience, the good placement of the clips, and I figured that everything would go off with out a hitch.
Obliviously that is not how things turned out. I think, that it IS possible to safely preform the move, but its riskier than your average move. I take full responsibility there.
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livinonasandbar
Aug 16, 2007, 5:38 PM
Post #33 of 73
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Maybe the route setter f'ed up, too...
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reg
Aug 16, 2007, 5:38 PM
Post #34 of 73
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dreday3000 wrote: I totally agree with Reg that I am also at fault here. Bottom line was that I was the one that choose to try this crazy sideways dyno thing. The clips were in the right places, but I realized the inherent danger in the move. I weighed the danger of the move against my partners experience, the good placement of the clips, and I figured that everything would go off with out a hitch. Obliviously that is not how things turned out. I think, that it IS possible to safely preform the move, but its riskier than your average move. I take full responsibility there.
no no no no! i don't think ur attempt to do the move was a problem - it was the pile of slack at ur belayers feet that was the problem. i ment that if you had looked before you leaped (sorry bout dat) u may have avoided the fall. go for it brother!
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overlord
Aug 16, 2007, 5:38 PM
Post #35 of 73
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dreday3000 wrote: Things are confusing because the 1st hold was on a severe overhang and the second was on a vertical headwall 2 feet up and 4 feet to the right of the first hold. The clip was between the two holds on the vertical headwall between each hold - three feet above my head. Also, to be fair, paying out slack for a horizontal overhanging dyno move, isn't that straightforward - its hard to tell how much to pay out without restricting the climber. I am not saying that he should have dropped me, but i AM saying that he was paying attention and made an error. Truth be told, I still would let this guy belay me. He made a mistake, but I don't think its one he would make again. And he is a better belayer than a lot of people I've seen out there. It just goes to show you that you'd be surprised what can happen even in the hands of a capable belayer.
hows your math?? 2ft up and 4ft left is not 6ft but more like 5ft (if you gave us exact distances, it is 4.47ft).
and its not hard to tell how much slack to feed... you just need something called experience.
still, if the last clip was ABOVE you i really dont know how the belayer screwed up. i mean, to feed enough slack (30ft plus) takes some time. was the grigri threaded correctly? did the belayer somehow impede the locking action? was the rope still threaded correctly through the draws? none of the draws failed? did you by chance Z-clip at some time?
btw, what did you land on? matresses?
edited to add... something else is a bit unclear... were you 30ft up the route or 30ft off the deck? you mention a severe overhang... and 30ft up a sever overhang is nowhere near 30ft off the deck
(This post was edited by overlord on Aug 16, 2007, 5:45 PM)
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dreday3000
Aug 16, 2007, 5:45 PM
Post #36 of 73
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Not the routesetters fault, I was linking two different routes
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deschamps1000
Aug 16, 2007, 5:47 PM
Post #37 of 73
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I would say that you are not at fault. Though I didn't see it happen it sounds to me like your belayer clamped down on the grigri when you fell, causing rope to slip through. This is supported by the boulderer in the gym who heard you fall and then looked at the belayer who still had slack out!
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dreday3000
Aug 16, 2007, 5:48 PM
Post #38 of 73
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Basta916 wrote: from what you posted.. you got dropped....sounds like another human error  .....oh yea , grigri or not, its not a gear that failed in your story
True, but the human is part of "the system' that you trust. The bottom line is that I've generally be able to assume that when I fall, baring marginal pro, I expect 'the system' to hold me. Whether a ATC explodes or my belayer goes into an epileptic fit is irrelevant.
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deschamps1000
Aug 16, 2007, 5:48 PM
Post #39 of 73
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Though, one more comment, even if the belayer did mess up; shit happens and people make mistakes. In the end you are okay and the belayer probably learned a good lesson. No need to come down on him too hard. He probably feels bad enough.
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bent_gate
Aug 16, 2007, 5:53 PM
Post #40 of 73
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Wow. I'm glad you're alright.
Confidence wise, I'm sure it is going to be like starting over. And perhaps rightly so. When our assumptions fail, they should be re-examined. And we are blessed if we get a second chance.
It's going to be hard to talk about with your friend. It would break my heart for a friend whom I've climbed with for years to fail, and for me to feel like I can't trust them or climb with them anymore no matter how much I want to. Loyalty makes this tough. And I wouldn't have it in my heart to accuse them of something.
Sometimes it's easier to talk about if you leave the words "you" out of the discussion. Talk about the behavior of the objects, instead of the person. The rope did this. the rope came through that. Judge techniques that fail, and not the person. You need an answer that you an believe in and move on.
Good Luck.
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thomasribiere
Aug 16, 2007, 7:59 PM
Post #41 of 73
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I have never climbed in a gym that have mandatory 6 ft dynos, but why not, I have never lead over 5.11a.
Have you reread your OP and are you sure of all the datas you gave us?
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jt512
Aug 16, 2007, 8:15 PM
Post #42 of 73
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dreday3000 wrote: I have always expected "the system' to work. My style has always been aggressive- i push hard and am willing to take falls - but that has been predicated on the belief that the system is gonna work. If I'm on dodgey gear or in a precocious position I reel it in a bit but now that I've seen the system fail in the safest of circumstances, I gotta think twice. ... So basically now I have some headgames to deal with. I've seen good climbers take nasty falls and have it stuck with them. I don't want that to be an issue for me. I'm foolhardy to a fault so I think I'll get through it, but its a strange position to be in. I made a point of climbing the rest of the night and doing a few dynos. Trying to get back in the saddle and all. I was tense but all things considered, I did ok I guess.
I think you are correct that the way you respond to this accident will have considerable effect on your future performance and enjoyment of climbing. I decked early in my climbing career, thinking, like you, that the system is more-or-less foolproof. That accident was over 15 years ago, and I have never been able to get back completely to the feeling of trust I had in the system, and consequently still climb too cautiously in safe situations. What helped me a lot was studying and practicing Arno Ilgner's Rock Warrior's Way stuff. I suggest you get his book and start incorporating his methods into your climbing. A key point is learning to assess the relative safety or riskiness of your situation before you leave the ground, and at appropriate breakpoints during the climb.
I suggest that you repost your story in the Warrior's Way forum on this site. Arno responds personally to many posts, as do other climbers with experience using the Warrior's Way approach.
In reply to: [My belayer] just misjudged the slack.
Your belayer did not "just misjudge the slack." He completely failed to do his job, which was to protect you in what sounds like a routine situation. Assessing the belayer's ability is part of before-leaving-the-ground risk assessment. You're going to have to do whatever it takes to know that your belayer will catch you. This means taking more responsibility for your own safety on the climb. Do you know how competently your belayer handles a grigri? Does he get his hand off the lever the instant he pays out enough slack? (Probably "no" in your case.) Can he react correctly instantly if I fall while trying to make an overhead clip? Does he know when to run back? Can he belay dynamically? Does he know where the risky parts of this climb are? And so on. If you have any doubts then talk to or practice with your belayer until you really know that he won't fail you.
Finally, you must be realistic and accept the fact that you are never 100% safe in climbing. No matter how good the equipment, your belayer, and your risk-assessment skills are, accidents can and will happen. Although rare, good belayers make mistakes, bolts fail, etc. You have to be honest with yourself that there is some baseline level of risk that you can never eliminate in climbing. Recognize that, and then decide whether you can accept that risk, or not. If you can't, don't climb. If you can, then accept the risk, and let it go.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 16, 2007, 8:21 PM)
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NSFW
Aug 16, 2007, 8:24 PM
Post #43 of 73
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^^^ good stuff
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cracklover
Aug 16, 2007, 8:27 PM
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jt512 wrote: dreday3000 wrote: [My belayer] just misjudged the slack. Your belayer did not "just misjudge the slack." He completely failed to do his job, which was to protect you in what sounds like a routine situation.
I'd bet dollars to donuts that your belayer was gripping the gri-gri to yard slack out, and when you fell, he still had his hand gripping the device, holding it open and keeping the cam from engaging. No misjudgement of slack, but a misuse of the device with only one possible outcome: you decking.
There's no fucking way you can misjudge 30 feet of slack. But if you want to fool yourself, feel free.
GO
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billl7
Aug 16, 2007, 10:05 PM
Post #45 of 73
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dreday3000 wrote: I totally agree with Reg that I am also at fault here. Bottom line was that I was the one that choose to try this crazy sideways dyno thing. The clips were in the right places, but I realized the inherent danger in the move. I weighed the danger of the move against my partners experience, the good placement of the clips, and I figured that everything would go off with out a hitch. Obliviously that is not how things turned out. I think, that it IS possible to safely preform the move, but its riskier than your average move. I take full responsibility there.
Again, I'm not saying you personally chose something too risky. Nor am I saying it was your belayer who f'd up. Go back to the wall with your belayer and work it out from the deck. If the primary failure can't be agreed on (someone has primary) then decide for yourself and adjust (Jay laid this out well).
Bill L
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Basta916
Aug 17, 2007, 1:33 AM
Post #46 of 73
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dreday3000 wrote: Basta916 wrote: from what you posted.. you got dropped....sounds like another human error .....oh yea , grigri or not, its not a gear that failed in your story True, but the human is part of "the system' that you trust. The bottom line is that I've generally be able to assume that when I fall, baring marginal pro, I expect 'the system' to hold me. Whether a ATC explodes or my belayer goes into an epileptic fit is irrelevant.
and we can call it " Apple pie" its still a HUMAN ERROR, and if You like to climb with Him again....its up to you and him....good luck
P.S. good point on Epileptic fit, I will have to make sure from now on my belayer does not have problems of that kind
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majid_sabet
Aug 17, 2007, 1:35 AM
Post #47 of 73
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cracklover wrote: jt512 wrote: dreday3000 wrote: [My belayer] just misjudged the slack. Your belayer did not "just misjudge the slack." He completely failed to do his job, which was to protect you in what sounds like a routine situation. I'd bet dollars to donuts that your belayer was gripping the gri-gri to yard slack out, and when you fell, he still had his hand gripping the device, holding it open and keeping the cam from engaging. No misjudgement of slack, but a misuse of the device with only one possible outcome: you decking. There's no fucking way you can misjudge 30 feet of slack. But if you want to fool yourself, feel free. GO
come on, I know you would trust me if I tell you people do it all the time.
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marvinz
Aug 17, 2007, 2:02 AM
Post #48 of 73
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climbordie7 wrote: one question, are you being serious or sarcastic?
If you have to ask ...
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moose_droppings
Aug 17, 2007, 3:17 AM
Post #49 of 73
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cracklover wrote: I'd bet dollars to donuts that your belayer was gripping the gri-gri to yard slack out, and when you fell, he still had his hand gripping the device, holding it open and keeping the cam from engaging. No misjudgement of slack, but a misuse of the device with only one possible outcome: you decking
*bingo*
deschamps100 hit on this too.
I'm casting my vote on this scenario.
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glytch
Aug 17, 2007, 3:20 AM
Post #50 of 73
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From Majid: In reply to: come on, I know you would trust me if I tell you people do it all the time.
.... uhh, what? people misjudge almost 10m of rope while belaying all the time?! This isn't a few extra feet of slack, this is approaching 20% of your entire rope length! If anyone regularly (or ever) is able to let out 20% of the rope by accident, well, they shouldn't be climbing.
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