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jetescamilla
Apr 22, 2009, 5:09 AM
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There are 3 of us learning to lead in our gym. Me, my wife, and a coworker. We have been assisted leading for 2 weeks with the aide of a toprope and the past 2 weeks we have been leading unassisted in the gym.
Today was an error on both my partner and myself. He tied into his harness but had a bunch of extra rope. Instead of tying a stopper with a double or possibly triple overhand knot, he used a singe which had a lot of tail. Almost to his chin when the rope was tight. We checked each other but I failed to see the error in that.
He stretched to clip into his second quickdraw, so essentially he was being toproped for short while. I was pulling some of the slack out until he passed the clip. Without realizing it, the stopper knot whet back though the quickdraw.
My partner then went to reach for his third clip and was stuck because of his stopper knot was jammed in the QD. We realized what happend and started to down climb to reach the 2nd QD. There was a bunch of him fumbling with it and his fingers were getting spent trying to push it back though. We both decided his best bet was to just lean back and I could "take him" and he could give a rest then get back to the wall and fix it. Well when he put his weight back to the QD I heard the click of the clip and he came to the ground.
Fortunately he was no higher than the top of a gym boulder route and our gym has lots of padding. He landed feet first but went slammed his back pretty good. He popped up just fine and laughed it off but I could tell it gave him a good scare (Me too for that matter, I felt just as guilty for not noticing what happened).
The guy at the gym showed us our error (we all already knew it) and showed us how to tie the figure eight with the tail sticking down at the end. For some reason every time we tried on our own, it seemed backwards. We climbed a couple of more times but using double or tripple overhand stoppers with our extra tail.
Can someone post how to correctly tie the figure 8 with the tail sticking down? I believe the guy at the gym called it a figure 9.
Well today was a lesson learned all of us will be sure never to make that mistake again. I am glad no one got hurt.
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billcoe_
Apr 22, 2009, 5:19 AM
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jetescamilla wrote: There are 3 of us learning to lead in our gym. Me, my wife, and a coworker. We have been assisted leading for 2 weeks with the aide of a toprope and the past 2 weeks we have been leading unassisted in the gym. Today was an error on both my partner and myself. He tied into his harness but had a bunch of extra rope. Instead of tying a stopper with a double or possibly triple overhand knot, he used a singe which had a lot of tail. Almost to his chin when the rope was tight. We checked each other but I failed to see the error in that. He stretched to clip into his second quickdraw, so essentially he was being toproped for short while. I was pulling some of the slack out until he passed the clip. Without realizing it, the stopper knot whet back though the quickdraw. My partner then went to reach for his third clip and was stuck because of his stopper knot was jammed in the QD. We realized what happend and started to down climb to reach the 2nd QD. There was a bunch of him fumbling with it and his fingers were getting spent trying to push it back though. We both decided his best bet was to just lean back and I could "take him" and he could give a rest then get back to the wall and fix it. Well when he put his weight back to the QD I heard the click of the clip and he came to the ground. Fortunately he was no higher than the top of a gym boulder route and our gym has lots of padding. He landed feet first but went slammed his back pretty good. He popped up just fine and laughed it off but I could tell it gave him a good scare (Me too for that matter, I felt just as guilty for not noticing what happened). The guy at the gym showed us our error (we all already knew it) and showed us how to tie the figure eight with the tail sticking down at the end. For some reason every time we tried on our own, it seemed backwards. We climbed a couple of more times but using double or tripple overhand stoppers with our extra tail. Can someone post how to correctly tie the figure 8 with the tail sticking down? I believe the guy at the gym called it a figure 9. Well today was a lesson learned all of us will be sure never to make that mistake again. I am glad no one got hurt.
No can do on the 8. This is ROCKCLIMBING.COM and you need to post this on GYMCLIMBING.COM.
They are not the same.
Good luck
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quiteatingmysteak
Apr 22, 2009, 5:28 AM
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Your measuring too much rope.
For all intensive purposes, do this technique when tying in with an 8 gym climbing.
Hold the tip of the rope on your thumb, and measure a length from thumb to the middle of your chest. From there make your knot.
Poke the end through your harness, snug the knot up close, finish the 8. You do NOT need a backup knot when you climb in a gym, and only need about 5-6 inches of tail.
If you have too much tail, retie the knot closer to the end. Too little, tie farther from the end.
Simple stuff, but here's the point I am making.
1. You only need a figure 8 at the gym
2. Don't use a backup knot in the gym
3. Don't leave too much or too little tail in the end of the 8.
I have been climbing for 8 years now, and worked at a gym from 2005-2006. This will work for you for quite some time in the gym.
edit - Sport Climbing 101 is a great movie with a lot of good tips for guys getting into sport climbing. I highly recommend it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KM3MB2Qik0
(This post was edited by quiteatingmysteak on Apr 22, 2009, 5:30 AM)
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aerili
Apr 22, 2009, 5:44 AM
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Is the OP talking about a Yosemite finish?
Or at least using this would seem far simpler than trying to tie an upside down figure 8.
I have a feeling the gym person is trying to make this harder than it has to be.
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angry
Apr 22, 2009, 5:56 AM
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I'm sure that the OP is asking about a yosemite finish.
I also want to add that a backup knot isn't. It's a take up extra slack knot. It does not make you safer. All it's capable of doing is helping to prevent your knot from loosening up or a quick check to see that you've got enough tail. A well dressed knot tied by a person with common sense covers this already.
A back up knot unties itself long before a fig-8 (even poorly dressed) starts to back out anyway.
Back to the OP. Don't read too much into this incident. Weird shit happens, this is one of those times. This is a sport of weird shit and the oddest stuff happening at the most inopportune times. You'll soon see, this was nothing.
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jetescamilla
Apr 22, 2009, 5:56 AM
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Yes, the Yosemite finish, that is what it looked like. I have seen this once before. Is there any strength reduction by using this as opposed to a an overhand stopper or possibly no stopper as the poster 2 up has said. I have never heard of not wanting to use a stopper knot when climbing, even with a figure 8.
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jt512
Apr 22, 2009, 6:02 AM
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The solution to this is obvious: don't leave a noob loop in your tie-in. Tie the figure-8 snugly against your harness, and tie the fisherman's backup (what you incorrectly call a "stopper knot") snugly against the figure-8, using as many turns of rope in the fisherman's as necessary to eat up all of the rope, except for a few inches of tail. If you find that you consistently need more than two turns of rope in your fisherman's backup, then, duh, start your figure-8 with less rope out in the first place.
The sport/Yosemite finish—often mistakenly called a "figure 9" (which is a different knot)—is a superior finish than the so-called "stopper knot," for a number of reasons, if you don't have too much tail in the rope. If you do, then the sport finish increases the likelihood that you will accidentally clip the tail of the rope, or at least have to fumble around to ensure that you're not clipping the tail. So, if you can't get out of the habit of tying your knot with too much tail, then you are better off using the fig-8 with fisherman's backup, since you can tie the fisherman's with as many turns of the rope as necessary to take up the excess tail.
Jay
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d0nk3yk0n9
Apr 22, 2009, 11:16 AM
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quiteatingmysteak wrote: You do NOT need a backup knot when you climb in a gym, and only need about 5-6 inches of tail.
While this is a true statement, some gyms require a backup knot, so you may have to tie something (fishermans or yosemite finish) just to keep them happy. Other gyms are more lenient and don't really care what you use. For example, the gym I climb in has no problems with bowlines but insists upon some sort of backup knot.
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bill413
Apr 22, 2009, 12:46 PM
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One point I'd like to mention. As said, the figure-8 does not need a backup (provided you have about a 3 inch tail). However, almost all other knots - especially including the bowline - do need backups when tied in kernmantle rope.
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currupt4130
Apr 22, 2009, 12:53 PM
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If you're tying your knot and it seems to come out "backwards" just do a quick orientation before you retrace your eight. Every time I tie in I take the rope and make sure that the line leading out of the eight, away from me, is coming up from the bottom and out the top of the knot. If you do this the tail will always come out the top and you can tuck your Yosemite back in and DOWN through your knot.
It's the same thing if your knot is upside down, you're just tucking your tail up. The Yosemite only bends over the middle two bars of the eight, not around the edges or around the whole knot.
(This post was edited by currupt4130 on Apr 22, 2009, 12:54 PM)
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mike_devildog
Apr 22, 2009, 12:59 PM
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Arent gym staff there for a reason! Ask a knowledgable gym employee to show you how to properly tie in!
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jetescamilla
Apr 22, 2009, 2:27 PM
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Thanks for the comments thus far.
I think I may have worded tying in backwards a little wrong and threw some of you off....First of all, we all know how to tie a figure 8 properly. By backwards I guess I really meant upside down. Look at the 2 pics below. One has the loops going behind the standing part of the knot. and one has the loops going in front of the standing part of the knot
I dont think it helped that the gym staff had to retie the knot 4 times to show us how to do what he was trying to do. This is why we defaulted back to using the stopper, but with much less tail. Believe me, lesson learned.
And Angry, yeah weird shit happens. That is why we are practicing in a "controlled" environment. I doubt something like this will happen again to us. Especially now that we know to check for it. At no time in our lead class was it mentioned to shorten the tails of the knots. Coming from toprope, where it really doesnt matter, we at the time, saw nothing wrong with it.
Edited to say that I understand the knots below are just flipped around and if I look at it from the bottom it would be the same.
 
(This post was edited by jetescamilla on Apr 22, 2009, 2:30 PM)
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Climbing_Pink
Apr 22, 2009, 2:46 PM
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Sounds like you practice on top rope a little more, twisting an ankle or worse might take you out for awhile. Also, maybe have the gym employees watch you guys, don't want something like this happening at the anchors or forth clip.
Your lucky
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granite_grrl
Apr 22, 2009, 3:03 PM
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Huh, I thought that most climbers, by the time they start leading, would be done with the sloppy knot.
A nice compact, well dressed knot is the way to go. Which knot or variation doesn't matter as much as how you tie and dress it.
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kachoong
Apr 22, 2009, 8:08 PM
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Not sure if I should post it here, but this thread reminded me of it...
Just wondering if you guys have heard about a potential problem concerning the Yosemite Finish that can weaken the knot during a certain scenario. I heard it a while back and for the life of me can't find the reference, but I did find this article which talks a little bit about it.
I had heard that if you were to take a lead fall and the loop tied to your harness clipped a draw on the way down (highly unlikely I know, but theorize for a moment) the subsequent load could flip the knot, causing it to possibly fail (i.e. unravel). The article I link above says that "if you load the loop of the knot it is possible that it will invert, after which you will only have part of the figure-eight remaining."
This is a normal Yosemite Finish
If you imagine the loop strands pulling apart due to a fall onto a clipped quickdraw, the Yosemite finish aids in the knot to roll over itself, after which you end up with a partially tied knot. The article I link above suggests a fix where you loop the tail around the rope again before "tucking" it back through.
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shockabuku
Apr 22, 2009, 8:18 PM
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I took a self-rescue course with an guide about two weeks ago. He showed us a similar issue. It was with the Yosemite finish. If the knot is not very well cinched down (or, presumably sees a large impulse) it will invert and untie itself. Instead, he said the standard figure eight with about a 6" tail and no additional knot is now the recommended standard.
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desertwanderer81
Apr 22, 2009, 8:19 PM
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d0nk3yk0n9 wrote: quiteatingmysteak wrote: You do NOT need a backup knot when you climb in a gym, and only need about 5-6 inches of tail. While this is a true statement, some gyms require a backup knot, so you may have to tie something (fishermans or yosemite finish) just to keep them happy. Other gyms are more lenient and don't really care what you use. For example, the gym I climb in has no problems with bowlines but insists upon some sort of backup knot.
Those gyms are ignorant of safe climbing practices.
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shockabuku
Apr 22, 2009, 8:21 PM
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jetescamilla wrote: I doubt something like this will happen again to us. Especially now that we know to check for it. At no time in our lead class was it mentioned to shorten the tails of the knots. Coming from toprope, where it really doesnt matter, we at the time, saw nothing wrong with it.
Not to be too much of a dick but I do doubt that this will be your last incident unless you start trying to learn more than you already know. At this point you really don't know what you don't know and that means you don't know what to be concerned about.
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kachoong
Apr 22, 2009, 8:22 PM
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shockabuku wrote: I took a self-rescue course with an guide about two weeks ago. He showed us a similar issue. It was with the Yosemite finish. If the knot is not very well cinched down (or, presumably sees a large impulse) it will invert and untie itself. Instead, he said the standard figure eight with about a 6" tail and no additional knot is now the recommended standard.
Yeah, after I heard about it and fiddled with the knot a little I abandoned the use of the YF (the YF is supposed to work better with the bowline)... now I just tie a well-dressed figure 8, like many have mentioned here, with about 4-6 inch tail, no stopper knot, and dressed close to the harness.
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seatbeltpants
Apr 22, 2009, 8:36 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: d0nk3yk0n9 wrote: quiteatingmysteak wrote: You do NOT need a backup knot when you climb in a gym, and only need about 5-6 inches of tail. While this is a true statement, some gyms require a backup knot, so you may have to tie something (fishermans or yosemite finish) just to keep them happy. Other gyms are more lenient and don't really care what you use. For example, the gym I climb in has no problems with bowlines but insists upon some sort of backup knot. Those gyms are ignorant of safe climbing practices.
shit, from the few gyms i've climbed at that seems pretty standard - they each have their way of doing things "by the book", but every gym's "book" is different, and every one of them has its idiosyncrasies (sp?)...
from my experience i think you need to do what you're told at your gym, but read a lot and talk to a lot of experienced climbers to understand why a particular technique is good or bad, then make up your own mind. fwiw, i tie in with a fig8 without a stopper / backup, though potentially i'm going to die as a result. ymmv.
steve
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cncfreak247
Apr 22, 2009, 8:37 PM
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Chicks dig the Barell Knot
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desertwanderer81
Apr 22, 2009, 8:43 PM
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seatbeltpants wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: d0nk3yk0n9 wrote: quiteatingmysteak wrote: You do NOT need a backup knot when you climb in a gym, and only need about 5-6 inches of tail. While this is a true statement, some gyms require a backup knot, so you may have to tie something (fishermans or yosemite finish) just to keep them happy. Other gyms are more lenient and don't really care what you use. For example, the gym I climb in has no problems with bowlines but insists upon some sort of backup knot. Those gyms are ignorant of safe climbing practices. shit, from the few gyms i've climbed at that seems pretty standard - they each have their way of doing things "by the book", but every gym's "book" is different, and every one of them has its idiosyncrasies (sp?)... from my experience i think you need to do what you're told at your gym, but read a lot and talk to a lot of experienced climbers to understand why a particular technique is good or bad, then make up your own mind. fwiw, i tie in with a fig8 without a stopper / backup, though potentially i'm going to die as a result. ymmv. steve
I in no way disagree that you shouldn't play by their rules at the gym.
Fact remains however that they're ignorant of safe climbing practices. They flout these stupid rules and then skimp on replacing ropes and having proper supervision.
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Factor2
Apr 22, 2009, 9:23 PM
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Climbing_Pink wrote: Sounds like you practice on top rope a little more, twisting an ankle or worse might take you out for awhile. Also, maybe have the gym employees watch you guys, don't want something like this happening at the anchors or forth clip. Your lucky
Actually, the second clip is about the worst place for this to happen. If it happened at the anchors, you wouldn't deck (unless its a very runout gym)
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