|
|
|
|
mtclimberjd
Dec 3, 2010, 9:49 PM
Post #26 of 74
(4464 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2006
Posts: 3
|
currupt4130 wrote: ... Get a Cinch, become proficient with it, and you'll hate using a Grigri. It will feel un-natural, clumsy and slow. I'll get you started on learning to use it too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9TO5ikqXwo
Agreed. The vid above is essential for learning to use the Cinch. Of course, you can always let go of the brake strand like I see many people with gri gris do if you don't like the proper method (as long as you're no where near me  ). Another tidbit for using the Cinch that isn't in the video - when your leader takes a big fall and the Cinch gets cammed tight enough that torquing downward doesn't open it up, you can use your top, rope feeding hand to push on the cam plate to open it as you pull more rope. It might not be obvious at first but eventually it becomes second nature when grabbing rope after the device is locked. So there's definitely a learning curve compared to an ATC or Reverso but once you're up to speed it's an awesome device for lead belays (and as invaluable as the Reverso / ATC Guide for belaying a follower in autoblock).
JD
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Dec 3, 2010, 11:54 PM
Post #27 of 74
(4442 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
billcoe_ wrote: BTW, learn to use each hand.
Critical. I was in a place yesterday where it was far preferable to use my left hand as the brake hand.
|
|
|
|
|
gosharks
Dec 3, 2010, 11:54 PM
Post #28 of 74
(4441 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2004
Posts: 268
|
jt512 wrote: gosharks wrote: brokesomeribs wrote: It's awkward, and worse, it still doesn't feed as smooth as grabbing the cam (AKA "the death belay") which is what ends up happening all over the country as n00bs think they're safer. I actually think that the "new" method is smoother than just grabbing the entire device. Looping the brake end of the rope over the lip critically improves the smoothness of pulling the rope through. Really? I think it does just the opposite. I haven't used the "new" method much, but it seems to me that looping the rope over the lip of the grigri creates additional friction, making it more difficult to feed rope smoothly. Jay
Holding my 10.1 rope bent back like that, I don't even have to press the cam down to feed rope unless it is a quick clip.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Dec 4, 2010, 12:42 AM
Post #29 of 74
(4423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
gosharks wrote: jt512 wrote: gosharks wrote: brokesomeribs wrote: It's awkward, and worse, it still doesn't feed as smooth as grabbing the cam (AKA "the death belay") which is what ends up happening all over the country as n00bs think they're safer. I actually think that the "new" method is smoother than just grabbing the entire device. Looping the brake end of the rope over the lip critically improves the smoothness of pulling the rope through. Really? I think it does just the opposite. I haven't used the "new" method much, but it seems to me that looping the rope over the lip of the grigri creates additional friction, making it more difficult to feed rope smoothly. Jay Well, I'm not exactly putting the rope in contact with the entire lip, or much of it at all. Try bending the brake end back towards you a little bit (like this http://www2.8a.nu/eng/pics/sterkygrigri.jpg ) and compare to having the rope run in the same plane as the GriGri.
That's exactly how I've done it.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
redlude97
Dec 4, 2010, 2:47 AM
Post #30 of 74
(4397 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 990
|
caughtinside wrote: bill413 wrote: Jooler wrote: Is a Cinch easier to use than a GriGri? They are slightly different. They are both relatively easy to use AS LONG AS YOU LEARN HOW TO USE THE DEVICE. They do not operate the same, and some folks prefer one, some folks prefer the other. You will probably find the one you practice with the most to be easiest. I learned the grigri first, and felt very comfortable using it. I got a cinch to try out, more for fun than anything else. It wasn't intuative for me, and I never felt as solid with the cinch as with the grigri. Not saying this is a flaw with the cinch, they just require a different belay technique. I gave up on the cinch because I already had so much belay time in on the grigri where I felt solid, and didn't get enough benefit from using the cinch to warrant switching devices.
|
|
|
|
|
rocknice2
Dec 4, 2010, 5:28 AM
Post #31 of 74
(4377 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2006
Posts: 1221
|
gosharks wrote: Holding my 10.1 rope bent back like that, I don't even have to press the cam down to feed rope unless it is a quick clip.
That's just it you can yard very hard on the rope with a Cinch and always have fingers on the brake.
I've seen guys feeding a rope fast through a GriGri as well. The technique is a bit simplar with a Cinch.
|
|
|
|
|
gosharks
Dec 4, 2010, 8:46 AM
Post #32 of 74
(4358 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2004
Posts: 268
|
rocknice2 wrote: That's just it you can yard very hard on the rope with a Cinch and always have fingers on the brake.
I don't use an ATC much for lead anymore, and it feels like I feed rope quicker with a GriGri than ATC.
|
|
|
|
|
madscientist
Dec 4, 2010, 3:48 PM
Post #33 of 74
(4323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2002
Posts: 159
|
There are people very firmly in the Cinch or the GriGri camp. I use both frequently, and use the new method for both. Thus, I use the method in the video posted earlier, and the new method endorsed by Petzl.
I find that the Cinch is easier to feed, but the difference between the two would not make me recommend one over the other. I believe that the new GriGri method is safer than the old method (just saw someone almost deck the other day when they slipped off while clipping; the belayer did not get their hand back to the rope fast enough; she was using the old method). The new method is also a little harder to get used.
I prefer lowering on the GriGri and find that it is easier to deal with when someone is dogging a route. The cinch feeds rope great and I prefer it when the climber is actually climbing.
Considering you are complaining about holding the rope while someone is dogging a route, I would lean a little (and very little) towards a GriGri.
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Dec 4, 2010, 4:47 PM
Post #34 of 74
(4314 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
redlude97 wrote: caughtinside wrote: bill413 wrote: Jooler wrote: Is a Cinch easier to use than a GriGri? They are slightly different. They are both relatively easy to use AS LONG AS YOU LEARN HOW TO USE THE DEVICE. They do not operate the same, and some folks prefer one, some folks prefer the other. You will probably find the one you practice with the most to be easiest. I learned the grigri first, and felt very comfortable using it. I got a cinch to try out, more for fun than anything else. It wasn't intuative for me, and I never felt as solid with the cinch as with the grigri. Not saying this is a flaw with the cinch, they just require a different belay technique. I gave up on the cinch because I already had so much belay time in on the grigri where I felt solid, and didn't get enough benefit from using the cinch to warrant switching devices. Many people who start on the grigri find the cinch harder to use, but to say it is less intuitive than the grigri? The grigri is probably the least intuitive belay device there is.
Hmm, I worded that poorly. I didn't mean to imply that the grigri belay was more intuitive than the cinch belay for someone who hadn't used either. I had someone coaching me on using the grigri when I learned, and then I used it for about 5 straight years.
When I got the cinch, I read the instructions and watched the vid, but didn't know any experienced climbers who used one, and I felt vulnerable from my inexperience with the device. I decided that the pro, which was to take a lighter auto locker on multipitch climbs wasn't worth it. I ended up just going back to a tube style for multipitch anyway and the grigri for cragging and sport.
|
|
|
|
|
spikeddem
Dec 4, 2010, 6:32 PM
Post #35 of 74
(4296 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 6319
|
jt512 wrote: gosharks wrote: jt512 wrote: gosharks wrote: brokesomeribs wrote: It's awkward, and worse, it still doesn't feed as smooth as grabbing the cam (AKA "the death belay") which is what ends up happening all over the country as n00bs think they're safer. I actually think that the "new" method is smoother than just grabbing the entire device. Looping the brake end of the rope over the lip critically improves the smoothness of pulling the rope through. Really? I think it does just the opposite. I haven't used the "new" method much, but it seems to me that looping the rope over the lip of the grigri creates additional friction, making it more difficult to feed rope smoothly. Jay Well, I'm not exactly putting the rope in contact with the entire lip, or much of it at all. Try bending the brake end back towards you a little bit (like this http://www2.8a.nu/eng/pics/sterkygrigri.jpg ) and compare to having the rope run in the same plane as the GriGri. That's exactly how I've done it. Jay
I agree with gosharks. By looping the break strand over the lip (with a bit larger radius in the bend than what is shown in the 8a.nu photo), the tangent of the rope's path as it enters the grigri seems to align perfectly with the grigri to minimize the rope's resistance to entering the device.
|
|
|
|
|
K-Tanz
Dec 4, 2010, 10:59 PM
Post #36 of 74
(4273 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 18, 2009
Posts: 34
|
I have a cinch and will never go back to a gri-gri. I have found that the Cinch feeds slack much easier than the gri-gri and I like how it catches right away. I will say the gri-gri is easier to lower people with, especially if they are heavy. I've seen this debate a lot before and it seems that usually what a person learned on is what they prefer. I can't speak for the gri-gri 2 though.
One thing to remember with auto-locking devices is that they are the opposite of idiot proof. If your belayer is inexperienced with the device and they, say, grab the rope above the device during a fall (which happens), it may not lock and you have just gone french fry when you wanted to go pizza. Whatever you get just make sure to know the operation inside and out so you don't end up a skid mark
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Dec 5, 2010, 12:58 AM
Post #37 of 74
(4253 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
madscientist wrote: There are people very firmly in the Cinch or the GriGri camp. I use both frequently, and use the new method for both. Thus, I use the method in the video posted earlier, and the new method endorsed by Petzl. I find that the Cinch is easier to feed, but the difference between the two would not make me recommend one over the other. I believe that the new GriGri method is safer than the old method (just saw someone almost deck the other day when they slipped off while clipping; the belayer did not get their hand back to the rope fast enough; she was using the old method). The new method is also a little harder to get used. I prefer lowering on the GriGri and find that it is easier to deal with when someone is dogging a route. The cinch feeds rope great and I prefer it when the climber is actually climbing. Considering you are complaining about holding the rope while someone is dogging a route, I would lean a little (and very little) towards a GriGri.
why? Cinch should stay locked the same as a gri gri. To "unlock" the Cinch when someone is getting back on the route i step forward a step or do a little hop and it takes the pressure off and lets you feed smoothly again.
lowering with the Cinch takes practice and perhaps a redirect off your leg loop. Belay gloves have improved this for me immensely.
|
|
|
|
|
gosharks
Dec 5, 2010, 1:37 AM
Post #38 of 74
(4248 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2004
Posts: 268
|
jakedatc wrote: why? Cinch should stay locked the same as a gri gri. To "unlock" the Cinch when someone is getting back on the route i step forward a step or do a little hop and it takes the pressure off and lets you feed smoothly again.
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Dec 5, 2010, 2:20 AM
Post #39 of 74
(4238 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
gosharks wrote: jakedatc wrote: why? Cinch should stay locked the same as a gri gri. To "unlock" the Cinch when someone is getting back on the route i step forward a step or do a little hop and it takes the pressure off and lets you feed smoothly again. Considering that the GriGri requires little to none of this, I would consider it easier to deal with.
1/2 second difference doesn't exactly make up for the short comings of the Gri gri the rest of the time.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Dec 5, 2010, 3:26 AM
Post #40 of 74
(4229 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
gosharks wrote: jakedatc wrote: why? Cinch should stay locked the same as a gri gri. To "unlock" the Cinch when someone is getting back on the route i step forward a step or do a little hop and it takes the pressure off and lets you feed smoothly again. Considering that the GriGri requires little to none of this, I would consider it easier to deal with.
neither does the cinch, actually. slight pressure on the back of the release handle with your thumb quickly and easily releases the cinch when the climber unweights the rope.
|
|
|
|
|
brokesomeribs
Dec 5, 2010, 9:06 AM
Post #41 of 74
(4206 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 20, 2009
Posts: 361
|
gosharks wrote: jakedatc wrote: why? Cinch should stay locked the same as a gri gri. To "unlock" the Cinch when someone is getting back on the route i step forward a step or do a little hop and it takes the pressure off and lets you feed smoothly again. Considering that the GriGri requires little to none of this, I would consider it easier to deal with.
None of that is necessary. It just takes a slight modulation of thumb pressure on the rotating plate. Your right hand is already in position, you don't even need to move it off the Cinch (unlike a GriGI) to pop the release open. I frequently belay my 240lb buddy in the gym. He locks up my Cinch like a boss.
Neither device is objectively "better" than the other. Each one has nuances that need to be understood to use them in the best/safest/smoothest fashion. The GriGri lowers better, the Cinch feeds smoother. Pick your poison.
All that matters is that the belayer using the device is well trained and experienced with his chosen device.
|
|
|
|
|
madscientist
Dec 5, 2010, 3:21 PM
Post #42 of 74
(4182 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2002
Posts: 159
|
jakedatc wrote: madscientist wrote: There are people very firmly in the Cinch or the GriGri camp. I use both frequently, and use the new method for both. Thus, I use the method in the video posted earlier, and the new method endorsed by Petzl. I find that the Cinch is easier to feed, but the difference between the two would not make me recommend one over the other. I believe that the new GriGri method is safer than the old method (just saw someone almost deck the other day when they slipped off while clipping; the belayer did not get their hand back to the rope fast enough; she was using the old method). The new method is also a little harder to get used. I prefer lowering on the GriGri and find that it is easier to deal with when someone is dogging a route. The cinch feeds rope great and I prefer it when the climber is actually climbing. Considering you are complaining about holding the rope while someone is dogging a route, I would lean a little (and very little) towards a GriGri. why? Cinch should stay locked the same as a gri gri. To "unlock" the Cinch when someone is getting back on the route i step forward a step or do a little hop and it takes the pressure off and lets you feed smoothly again. lowering with the Cinch takes practice and perhaps a redirect off your leg loop. Belay gloves have improved this for me immensely.
I find the GriGri easier to unlock while someone is dogging a route. I don't have to do things like jump, and stepping forward is not always an option since I try to belay under the first bolt so I don't get pulled off my stance. I did not say that the Cinch is hard to deal with, just that the GriGri is easier to deal with. The longer handle also makes lowering easier, but I also have no problems lowering with the Cinch. I just find that lowering with the GriGri is easier.
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Dec 5, 2010, 4:12 PM
Post #43 of 74
(4170 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
I still go for the gri gri, use it for 99% of all belays. It might not be more "intuitive," but it is definitely more universal and status quo right now. I think that it is definitely easier to mess up with a cinch than with a gri gri.
|
|
|
|
|
naitch
Dec 5, 2010, 4:21 PM
Post #44 of 74
(4166 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 17, 2002
Posts: 539
|
Have and use both. For me they both have their uses:
Grigri: TRing, and sport climbing but only when I know the leader is going to be excessively dogging and is heavier than me.
Cinch: most sport climbing and trad (when only bringing up one, otherwise BD guide).
For me, the Cinch feeds much easier and quicker and I tend to prefer it.
(This post was edited by naitch on Dec 5, 2010, 8:41 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Dec 5, 2010, 10:58 PM
Post #45 of 74
(4122 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
madscientist wrote: jakedatc wrote: madscientist wrote: There are people very firmly in the Cinch or the GriGri camp. I use both frequently, and use the new method for both. Thus, I use the method in the video posted earlier, and the new method endorsed by Petzl. I find that the Cinch is easier to feed, but the difference between the two would not make me recommend one over the other. I believe that the new GriGri method is safer than the old method (just saw someone almost deck the other day when they slipped off while clipping; the belayer did not get their hand back to the rope fast enough; she was using the old method). The new method is also a little harder to get used. I prefer lowering on the GriGri and find that it is easier to deal with when someone is dogging a route. The cinch feeds rope great and I prefer it when the climber is actually climbing. Considering you are complaining about holding the rope while someone is dogging a route, I would lean a little (and very little) towards a GriGri. why? Cinch should stay locked the same as a gri gri. To "unlock" the Cinch when someone is getting back on the route i step forward a step or do a little hop and it takes the pressure off and lets you feed smoothly again. lowering with the Cinch takes practice and perhaps a redirect off your leg loop. Belay gloves have improved this for me immensely. I find the GriGri easier to unlock while someone is dogging a route. I don't have to do things like jump, and stepping forward is not always an option since I try to belay under the first bolt so I don't get pulled off my stance. I did not say that the Cinch is hard to deal with, just that the GriGri is easier to deal with. The longer handle also makes lowering easier, but I also have no problems lowering with the Cinch. I just find that lowering with the GriGri is easier.
I also do the thumb push that Vegas mentioned and doesn't involve any moving. And by jumping i mean a very small hop.. and even then it probably isn't necessary. I will give you that Gri Gri's are easier to lower larger people on fat ropes. other wise it is really not a big deal.
I think folks who have learned on a gri gri have a harder time on the Cinch due to muscle memory that is not transferable. I learned on an tube device and went straight to Cinch. (only used Gri gri for top roping) So i think the Gri gri is giant and clumsy.
|
|
|
|
|
anarkhos
Dec 6, 2010, 9:38 PM
Post #46 of 74
(4063 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2006
Posts: 229
|
If you're tired of holing the brake hand, you're getting an auto-lock for the wrong reason. It's posts like yours that make me feel queasy.
For what it's worth, I absolutely hate the GriGri, even though its the first belay device I learned to use. The whole pinch-to-release mechanism blows. I've known two people who were dropped on a GriGri because the natural reaction when surprised is to grab something. I've also been short-roped on a GriGri more than any other device and refuse to lead anything hard when climbing for the first time with a GriGri user. They're also heavy and dirty the rope quickly. Longest whipper I took was when being belayed on a GriGri because the user pulled out a lot of slack when I was clipping. It also doesn't bite on thin ropes well.
The cinch, on the other hand, is awesome and if you hold it the way I do there is a positive "pinch" motion to grip the rope which I love. Reversing the motion un-grips the rope and I can give out slack as the leader pulls it and quickly take out unused slack. I gave one to my then-GF and never got short roped or dropped. It's great on multi-pitch and I've used it to self-belay on top-ropes (Trango says don't do this). It also works as a hand ascender although not very well (sucks as any other kind of ascender like foot, et cetera). Another great feature is you can clip it to and un-clip it from a weighted rope which makes escaping the belay quick and easy, or when you need to pass a knot. I'm not aware of any other belay device that can do this other than one's butt. The part that mostly rubs against the rope is steel so it doesn't dirty it as quickly, and it works well on thin ropes. What's not to like?
GriGri: D-
Cinch: A
|
|
|
|
|
gosharks
Dec 6, 2010, 9:57 PM
Post #47 of 74
(4051 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2004
Posts: 268
|
anarkhos wrote: If you're tired of holing the brake hand, you're getting an auto-lock for the wrong reason. It's posts like yours that make me feel queasy. For what it's worth, I absolutely hate the GriGri, even though its the first belay device I learned to use. The whole pinch-to-release mechanism blows. I've known two people who were dropped on a GriGri because the natural reaction when surprised is to grab something. I've also been short-roped on a GriGri more than any other device and refuse to lead anything hard when climbing for the first time with a GriGri user. They're also heavy and dirty the rope quickly. Longest whipper I took was when being belayed on a GriGri because the user pulled out a lot of slack when I was clipping. It also doesn't bite on thin ropes well.
Sounds like you need to find some people that actually know how to properly use a GriGri.
|
|
|
|
|
spikeddem
Dec 6, 2010, 11:39 PM
Post #48 of 74
(4021 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2007
Posts: 6319
|
anarkhos wrote: If you're tired of holing the brake hand, you're getting an auto-lock for the wrong reason. It's posts like yours that make me feel queasy.
I agree.
In reply to: For what it's worth, I absolutely hate the GriGri, even though its the first belay device I learned to use. The whole pinch-to-release mechanism blows.
This is not how the gri-gri should be used. Issue #1 solved.
In reply to: I've known two people who were dropped on a GriGri because the natural reaction when surprised is to grab something.
Besides the fact that we shouldn't be so taken aback by a falling climber that we forget how to use the brake end of the rope...there's also the fact that the "correct" style of belaying with a gri-gri would not have this issue. This is related to your first point, so I'll still consider this as only Issue #1 solved.
In reply to: I've also been short-roped on a GriGri more than any other device and refuse to lead anything hard when climbing for the first time with a GriGri user.
Well, damn, sounds like we're still dealing with Issue #1.
In reply to: They're also heavy and dirty the rope quickly.
Weight: I agree, relative to a Cinch. That said, I don't climb while carrying it, so it doesn't matter to me. Dirty the rope? How so? Describe to me why they would dirty the rope before a cinch would. The part that touches the rope touches nothing but the rope. I've never experienced any dirtiness from my gri-gri.
In reply to: Longest whipper I took was when being belayed on a GriGri because the user pulled out a lot of slack when I was clipping.
How can you blame this on the gri-gri? I mean, you even follow up the word "because" with "the user" not "the device."
In reply to: It also doesn't bite on thin ropes well.
In reply to: The cinch, on the other hand, is awesome and if you hold it the way I do there is a positive "pinch" motion to grip the rope which I love.
I don't really know what you're talking about here.
In reply to: Reversing the motion un-grips the rope and I can give out slack as the leader pulls it and quickly take out unused slack.
Hmm. Sounds like you're still comparing to any non-optimal way of belaying with a gri-gri.
In reply to: It also works as a hand ascender although not very well (sucks as any other kind of ascender like foot, et cetera).
Gri-gri too.
In reply to: Another great feature is you can clip it to and un-clip it from a weighted rope which makes escaping the belay quick and easy, or when you need to pass a knot. I'm not aware of any other belay device that can do this other than one's butt.
This is, as far as I know, true.
In reply to: The part that mostly rubs against the rope is steel so it doesn't dirty it as quickly
Again with the dirty. Where's the dirt coming from?
This is like a long version of gosharks post, but whatever.
I'm not some grigri fanatic. I have one, it works well. I support a cinch just as much, but there's a lot of crap that gets spit out about the grigri.
|
|
|
|
|
anarkhos
Dec 7, 2010, 12:56 AM
Post #49 of 74
(3994 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2006
Posts: 229
|
It dirties the rope because the part that grips the rope is made of aluminum. I would think that was obvious.
|
|
|
|
|
adam14113
Dec 7, 2010, 1:01 AM
Post #50 of 74
(3990 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 14, 2007
Posts: 57
|
grigri all the way. haters gonna hate
|
|
|
|
|
|
