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csoles
Oct 11, 2002, 11:18 PM
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Regarding the above comment, how would you say the grigri is any worse than other common self-belay methods? Surely it's no more static than a knot system, the soloist, or the solo-aid. In terms of the simpler systems that most of us know about, the only one I can think of that's remotely dynamic is the Silent Partner, since it takes a bit to lock up and thus provides some dynamic properties.
First, I'm assuming nobody is cutting the lip off anymore...really dumb. They all are essentially static, including the SP, but the Gri-gri has a much smaller contact area with the rope--the pinch point. This makes rope diameter critical and that decreases greatly in high stress situations. And we all know climbers have an illogical love of skinny ropes (ignorance is bliss).
Forces are always lower on the belayer side due to friction at the top biner and rock. It's a great device when used as intended. Methinks angels is the only reason Tom is alive now...use the rest of your life wisely.
[ This Message was edited by: csoles on 2002-10-11 16:19 ]
[ This Message was edited by: csoles on 2002-10-11 16:24 ]
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twrock
Oct 13, 2002, 3:56 PM
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(Just got back after a multi-day trip; wow, what a thread!)
I found it interesting that a number of us have used the same setup as Tom, the DMM belay master and a Grigri. It seems ideal. The whole point is to avoid cross loading, but it seems that cross loading would be the most logical explanation for the biner breaking. I have noticed that with some larger diameter biners, the Grigri can "bind" onto the belay biner in a non-optimal location. I have never liked that there is only one biner attaching the Grigri to my harness for roped solo climbing, but that's part of why we tie backup knots.
I do have a question for clarification. Isn't it that in a factor two fall you must fall exactly twice the distance of the length of rope you have out onto your anchor? In Tom's case, it seems at least some of the force of the fall was dissipated by the breaking of the rivet. What kind of "rating" can one expect from a standard rivet?
Regarding another solo belay device, the Silent Partner, does anyone else have the same concern about cross loading that I do? I am speaking about the pictures in the manual that have the two lockers with their gates facing outward and the SP hanging down from the bottom of the biners. In a fall, it seems the SP is going to be yanked upward and bind in a cross loaded position because it runs into the sleeves of the lockers and can't slide by. (Does this explanation make sense?)
(edit - See this post on the proper setup of a Silent Partner: http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=19876&forum=40&0 )
Anyway, glad to hear you are still with us, Tom. I hope you heal completely soon.
[ This Message was edited by: twrock on 2002-11-15 21:56 ]
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passthepitonspete
Oct 13, 2002, 5:30 PM
Post #53 of 83
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As per unanswered questions in previous posts:
Re. rivet - did rivet or hanger fail? If the latter, what kind of hanger?
How were you rescued specifically?
Precise orientation and position of belay and cordalette, especially unclipped bolt?
Man, my hands are still sweating over this one....
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philbox
Moderator
Oct 14, 2002, 3:23 AM
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Quote
Regarding another solo belay device, the Silent Partner, does anyone else have the same concern about cross loading that I do? I am speaking about the pictures in the manual that have the two lockers with their gates facing outward and the SP hanging down from the bottom of the biners. In a fall, it seems the SP is going to be yanked upward and bind in a cross loaded position because it runs into the sleeves of the lockers and can't slide by. (Does this explanation make sense?)
Unquote
Hiya Tworock, in answer to your specific question, no I haven`t found the SP to do as you say as it generally sits above the gates of the two lockers and will simply ride up to orientate itself in the best position for a fall.
I`ve found the SP to do everything it claims to do, smatter of fact I`ve found that one can indeed rap (albeit slowly) using one of these devices after unlocking the device after a fall.
...Phil...
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mrhardgrit
Oct 14, 2002, 4:17 PM
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Ok first ... I have come to realise that I’ve completely ignored an underlying issue on this thread... I nonchalantly answered q’s about the type of locking krab and then didn’t pick up on the fact I didn’t say that the plastic bit of the Belay Master wasn’t on the locker at the time (it got nicked). So sorry, sorry, sorry for causing anyone to worry about this unnecessarily - just too many questions and too many things to answer and think about at once. So, it most likely seems that the locker became crossloaded at the factor 2 point...
Pete - yep, did try to answer all your questions but, the RC server went down and lost my posting as I submitted it, hence the delay.
The rivet hanger broke, NOT the rivet. The rivet hanger was the beefiest one I had (pretty darn thick) and brand new (care of you know who...). It was not a Y-hanger as I don’t use them for critical pieces. Just the regular looped type, duct taped down.
The rescuer lowered off from the top, as vertically, I think it was only about 300-350 ft to the rim. We then lowered to the bottom of the route together on 1400 ft long ropes (two of them tied together to reach the ground).
The belay was directly below the copperhead that I fell from, around 10 degrees to the left from the rivet and ninety degrees to the left from the bolt (old one). The bolt was around 6ft away.
The cordalette was equalised for a direct upward/downward pull (three bolts in horizontal line).
Tom
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mrhardgrit
Oct 14, 2002, 4:21 PM
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I forgot to say.......
The rope was the Mammut Flex (10.2/10.6mm) rope - it's one of those sharp-edge tested ropes...
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bigwalling
Oct 15, 2002, 1:58 AM
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Pete, you don't backclean? I like to leave as few peices of gear on straightforward pitches as I can. I think screamers are one of the best things out there.
Pete, do you clip ever rivit? Or what?
You brits rule! You are really bold climbers.
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apollodorus
Oct 15, 2002, 3:09 AM
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Tom, glad to hear you're OK. You should take your off-time to write up your amazing epic/trip-report. And don't spare the details. Put the pictures in.
When I first saw this topic, I thought, "OH NO! Not Tom! That CAN'T be the Brit I met at the top of Scorched Earth. He was going to go solo Eagle's Way. Maybe he decided to do the Reticent instead . . ."
But, indeed, it is a small world.
For what it's worth, Dr. Piton soloed some of Scorched Earth while I did other things, like clean the previous pitch ever so slowly. What he does is attach the rope to the Pig as a dyno, and then backs it up to the rest of the belay. That way, he can haul the Pig about two feet when he falls. He is still working on integrating a hauling device into the system, so that he can whip-haul the pig up to the next belay (JUST KIDDING!) Seriously, though, the slack in the pig tether gives reasonable room for it to move. And the pig probably weighs about as much as a partner, anyway. Instead of a pure Factor-2 fall, the fall is a pig-modified Factor 2, which is much better.
I would guess that the locker was loaded sideways or on the gate at the Crucial Moment? Otherwise, how else can you explain it breaking?
Somebody should make a special locker for soloing that makes sure it's properly oriented in any fall. I can imagine using duct-tape to keep it in place, and after reading about Tom's (not so) Excellent Adventure, I'm going to do that for any soloing.
Oh, and just for the record, the Mammut Flex is an 11mm rope that holds 14 UIAA falls and one UIAA sharp edge fall. PTPP calls mine the King Snake, because of it's coloring. It's a nice beefy rope that is soft to handle and easy to knot and unknot.
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passthepitonspete
Dec 23, 2002, 11:01 PM
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Bigwalling,
I do backclean a bit on easy pitches, but I sure as hell wouldn't have backcleaned in the situation Tom describes. I don't backclean much because I'm basically a chickensh*t who prefers to avoid long and terrifying falls that can hurt me!
I also think this bears repeating:
The cause of the accident is in no way the fault of the rivet hanger that broke.
The cause of the accident was backcleaning too much on hard aid, not using screamers, and not clipping the bolt to render a factor 2 impossible.
It is no surprise the rivet hanger broke.
It is some surprise that you lived to tell the tale!
And I, for one, am glad, mate!
I personally use said rivet hangers, and they are ETS!
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crack_head
Dec 23, 2002, 11:07 PM
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damn NPS
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rockprodigy
Dec 26, 2002, 9:40 PM
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Here's a post I wrote on Gri-Gri's a while back:
"If you have access to it, there was a very interesting article in the latest edition of the American Alpine Club News. Apparently, a study was done in Italy on rope strength, one of the unintended results of the study was they discovered that Gri-Gri's put an un-acceptable amount of force on protection anchors because of the auto-lock characteristic.
The article claimed that standard belay devices (ATC, fig-8, etc.) are "dynamic" in nature, in that they allow rope to slip through, whereas a Gri-Gri does not, it locks almost instantaneously. That instantaneous lock generates huge fall forces (over 7kN according to the article) which is more than the human body can supposedly take (not sure if I agree with that...) and more than the UIAA standard for 'biners with the gate open! They even said Gri-Gri's were never intended to be used for leading because of this reason...toproping only."
So that kind of makes me think it is not IDEAL for hard-aid-soloing. Personally, I have used the gri-gri for short-fixing aid, and I will continue to do so, but I will avoid the possibility of factor 2 falls at all costs!
Let's re-cap: You were about 30' up with nothing between you and the belay but a rivet with no screamer and you were A0-ing up fixed copperheads?!
How did you not $hit your pants?
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passthepitonspete
Dec 27, 2002, 12:45 AM
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A better question might be,
"How did you not die?"
ALWAYS tie a backup knot.
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socalclimber
Dec 27, 2002, 7:05 PM
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The Grigri issue is an old one. I like using them for easy aid. A good friend of mine named Wally, who by the way has soloed every nasty route on El Cap, and then some, absolutely dislikes the Grigri for hard aid routes solo. His preference is the SoloAid. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to to discuss why he thinks the grigri is unsafe because I was in the middle of stacking a bunch of knifeblades into a rotten crack. Needless to say, my attention was focused on not getting my fool ass mangled.
As a general rule, if Wally tells me: "Robert, that's not safe", I take his word for it. He knows what he is talking about. I probably learned more from Wally in the 3 hours I spent on the route than I have learned in 5 years of aid climbing.
I'm buying a SoloAid!
Robert
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brutusofwyde
Dec 28, 2002, 4:08 AM
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First time I've weighed in on this thread. What a RAD story!
One thought on the gri/snapped 'biner issue.
I was playing with my grigri in the gym today, and noted that if the grigri is loaded when its position is anywhere on the spine of the carabiner, it can apply substantial leverage against the spine. I'm not an engineer, and I couldn't calculate my way out of a paper bag with a hole in the bottom, but i know that leverage is a force multiplier.
Combine this leverage with applying the multiplied force over a very small area of the carabiner spine, (Where the gri clips to the carabiner) and I suspect you are on the trail that will at least partially explain the biner failure.
I rarely (if ever) solo -- I don't like my own company that much -- but the lessons in this thread are more far-reaching than just for soloists. Short-fixing, h#ll, even jugging, tie them backup knots.
Talus is pretty unforgiving.
Mr Hard Grit -- Thanks for the facts, and being so willing to share the tale. Pete, et al thanks for the questions and insights.
Brutus
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copperhead
Dec 28, 2002, 4:27 AM
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Good point Brutus.
Isn't there a locking biner made by (???) with a plastic piece in the middle that keeps belay device and harni loop to themselves at opposite ends of the biner? I've seen them but never used one and am now wondering if something like this makes sense. ...or even duct tape, for that matter.
A clove tends to stay in one place on a biner so I'll stick with simplicity for soloing, though a Gri-gri is nice for tying in short while cleaning.
...where can I get one of those puke icons...?
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smallwallmonkey
Dec 28, 2002, 4:54 AM
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's DMM, and ..grit actually said he was using one but the plastic wasnt on.. That's a real good idea, buy the safety and not use it...
max
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passthepitonspete
Dec 28, 2002, 5:00 AM
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Interesting.
The locker upon which I attach my Grigri is this beautiful smooth-curved Bluewater autolocker.
I have a DMM locker that would be TERRIBLE on a Grigri - there would not be the necessary degrees of freedom.
Tom - do you think your Grigri was too tight on its carabiner?
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mrhardgrit
Dec 28, 2002, 11:55 PM
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It's great that we're getting so much dicussion about the grigri (esp' with the soloing slant).
Is there anyone else out there that has taken a large (25,30ft +) onto a grigri? Before the "said incident" I had only taken falls of up to 15/20ft and suffered no reprecussions. So... is the grigri not good for those big/high factor falls??
On the "too tight" topic, the locker I used was really nice and smooth and rotated smoothly through the grigri hole. I have noticed other lockers are pretty crap in this was i.e. faders lockers.
Tom
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twrock
Jan 2, 2003, 2:54 PM
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I took a 30 footer "onto" a Grigri while soloing. Unfortunately the situation was completely different than the one described here (actually I was quite fortunate that it was different). It kinda went "gear pops-fall-more gear pops-hit a ledge-slide off slowly-rope slides through the Grigri that never locked-backup knot jams into the Grigri-come to a stop looking up at the anchor with all the gear at my waste." So it was really a "slow motion" fall until I bounced off the edge, then it was about a 20 foot free fall with a minimal pendulum to a position under the anchor.
I think Dano used a Grigri in some of his jumps in one of the MOS videos. Was he trying to reduce the fall factor by allowing the Grigri to slip? Just guessing on this one.
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apollodorus
May 4, 2003, 8:03 AM
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In reply to: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's DMM, and ..grit actually said he was using one but the plastic wasnt on.. That's a real good idea, buy the safety and not use it.
Tom said it the the DMM locker that comes with the little plastic piece that clips on. But, then he said that the little plastic piece had been nicked.
"Nicked" is Britspeak for stolen.
So, the plastic piece was gone, and not an option to use anymore.
I've got a stainless steel locker that probably couldn't broken by a truck. It's heavy, but you only need one.
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justsendingits
May 4, 2003, 12:52 PM
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One of the reasons I like the SP is that you can use 2 locking crabs on it.
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mikeehartley
May 5, 2003, 9:31 PM
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With most soloist systems that I have used and know of it seems the potential weakest link is always a cross-loaded biner. With a silent partner indeed you can eliminate this by using two biners but the SP is rather large and clunky, especially for aid climbing. Whether its a Gri-Gri or other device I have gone to using a triangular shaped "delta" rapid link. If you haven't used rapid ("quick") links they are way stronger than biners, don't accidentally come undone, and don't fail when cross-loaded under the loads generated in climbing. A 10mm delta link used in conjunction with a sit/chest harness and a gri-gri (GG) stays oriented for the triaxial loading that develops when a biner would get pulled in bad ways. The use of a chest harness keeps the belay device up higher and not banging (ouch!) down around your crotch. The trade off is it's slightly heavier than a biner and slower to unlock but for me the trade off is well worth it.
The note earlier in the thread about the GG developing higher loads on the anchors due to its static nature is a good point but one that any soloist (with any thought of falling) should be planning for anyhow. Using some system for reducing the load on the anchor (screamers, etc) is always prudent with soloist systems.
With the above in mind, and of course (!) using backup knots, I think the GG is as fine a soloist device as any. All have limitations and none is the champ for at all thangs - hard aid, mixed aid, fast freeclimbing.
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passthepitonspete
Jun 10, 2003, 4:11 AM
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Holy frig! Another busted rivet hanger!
OK, get this - I'm standing on this hook with a rivet no lower than at my feet. There is even a Screamer on the rivet.
The hook pops, and I whip onto the [rivet] - the Screamer fully deploys with a super-soft catch, and the rivet hanger still breaks! I couldn't believe it. Thank goodness the Alien beneath it held, or I'd have sailed big time. [Gads, my hands are getting sweaty at the thought...]
At any rate, as far as I am aware, this rivet hanger was made by the same manufacturer as that of mrhardgrit's, and I just wondered if anyone else's rivet hangers have busted? Certainly Tom's near-factor-two fall out might be expected to bust a hanger, but not mine, or so I should think. I've never had gear fail at such a low force, with the exception of a Pika head that blew on the A5 Death Pitch of Reticent Wall, thus proving that you CAN fall on New Wave A5, and live to tell the tale.
I love the heads that this manufacturer makes, but I'm wondering if I should chuck the rivet hangers? Thoughts?
Cheers,
Pete
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rgaribotti
Aug 29, 2003, 6:07 PM
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In Accidents of North American Mountaineering 2003 I came across a report of an accident that Tom Randall had while rope soloing on el Cap. The report has a link to this forum where the subject has been getting discussed . Perhaps this matter has been adressed already (I havent read all the postings), but I wanted to make a couple of suggestions.
Tom had binner failure due to cross axis loading (most likely, or at least that what he thought happened). To avoid this I use a couple of different systems:
- I clip the Grigri to the harness with a D shaped multidirectional quicklink (maillon rapide). The ones from Petzl (aluminum) are best (sorry dont have the product number here with me, but if you look through their site or catalog you should be able to find it). This will spare you of the possibility of having a carabinner failure, as these quicklinks are very strong and multidirectional.
- Clipping the rope to the belay with a shock absorber is a must also, specially considering that the Grigri is largely static. I dont use a screamer but a "via Ferrata" style shock absorber. This latter one will absorb more energy and is a little smoother. The one I use is from Kong, product number 806 KISA (Kong Imact Shock Absorber). You can find it easly in europe, or might be able to order it from the distributor in the US. It is a plate with a carabiner size hole and six rope size holes. You can thread your lead line directly through it, and leave 2 meters (or more) on the opposite side of it with a knot in the end. Unfortunatedly progressive shock absorbers dont exist (these would be the best kind, ones that as you pull progresively provide more friction).
It was good that Tom had doublebacked by clipping himself into the rope, but to avoid what happened to him it will be enough to use the multidirectional quicklink. The shock absorber in the belay might have helped as well. In Tom's defense he claims to have lost before the climb the plastic piece that helps keep the DMM Belay Master locking binner he was using up right, therefore inhibiting it from getting cross loaded like it happened. For those that might be using this system or might want to use it in the future a D shaped quicklink will still be safer than the DMM Belay Master locking binner with the plastic piece and all.
In the NPS commets regarding this report John Dill (from Park Service) writes that "our main issue, however, is not his choice of belay or protection technique, but his preparation for surviving on El Cap in case he were stranded in bad weather...". So it appears that the decision to prosecute which is being talked about in this forum might have not been related at all with the use or non use of a Grigri.
I personally think that the Grigri is very safe for rope soloing, that if one takes the necesary precautions (quicklink, shock-absorber, backup knot, etc) and modifies it carefully (dont cut too much of it otherwise the rope can go under the cam which is sharp as a knife).
For what it is worth,
Rolo
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towsonclimber
Feb 15, 2005, 6:24 AM
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Bigdan use a friggin device there is a reason the world switched over from just using ropes and webbing
and that reason is
ding ding ding
SAFTY
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