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moonshine505
Feb 17, 2005, 2:38 PM
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I'd like to describe a recent accident involving a good friend of mine and see if you can help at least me understand what went wrong but ultimately help everyone in the community learn from what happened. That being said, please keep in mind that I was not there, and do not have any useful ice climbing background, although the physics/mechanics of the accident I would think I understood...
Location: Eureaka Pass, CO
Route: Stairway to Heaven (how many ice routes are named this, anyway?)
Accident location: top of pitch 4
Time: 1:00pm, cold but sunny
Scenario: Climbing in a team of 2, the leader climbs the fourth pitch (which I've been told is a 50-60 foot of very thick ice) placing 4 17cm screws on his way up. The leader remarked that while placing the screws, he was amazed at how solid the ice coming through the tube of the screw was, no air bubbles or fractures. The pitch ends on a snowy near-horizontal ledge, from which you set up an anchor. The last screw he placed was about 10' below this ledge.
While walking on this ledge to set up the anchor, the snow gave out underneath him and he basically lost his footing and fell. He was unable to self arrest and slid slowly backwards over the edge. Here's where things really get interesting. As he falls, all 4 screws he placed on lead pull, leaving on the pitch only the two that were placed where the second was anchored for the belay. The leader hits the ledge at the top of the pitch below him feet first, breaking pretty much everything below his knees, then falls off this ledge and the length of the first pitch, landing on his back on a snowfield.
With help from another climber who had been solo'ing the route ahead of this group (but still had a harness with him) the second was able to get the injured climber down and get help. Several surgeries later, and facing more surgery, at least 12 weeks in a wheelchair and lengthy rehab, my friend considers himself lucky that he did not suffer head or internal injuries in the accident.
So, help me out here...what are likely causes all the screws pulling, and what questions can I ask him to clarify the situation so that we can all learn something from this.
Sorry for my own ice climbing ignorance, and thanks for the help.
MM
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kailas
Feb 17, 2005, 2:49 PM
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My suggestion is stay in New Mexico and stop ice climbing because
if you can't negotiate a simple snow ramp then ice climbing isn't for
you. Take up basketball or water skiing.
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maldaly
Feb 17, 2005, 3:06 PM
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Nice response kailas. Love the help and support you can get on this forum. moonshine, sorry to hear about your friend's fall. He's way lucky as I'm sure you know.
I've been ice climbing for 30 years and have never seen ice come out of the barrel of a screw like you describe. I'd love to talk to your friend about it to get some first-hand opinions. It seems to me that the ice must have been really rotten or soft. For that many screws to pull out they couldn't have been either well placed or in good ice. Same thing, I guess. Good on the belayer for catching that fall.
Mal
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gunkjunkie
Feb 17, 2005, 3:07 PM
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It might help if you could provide a sketch detailing where the placements were in relationship to each other.
Deidre
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hibby11
Feb 17, 2005, 3:09 PM
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His friend got hurt and is in great pain and is out from something that i'm sure he loves doing, and all u can say is stay in New Mexico, i say if you dont have any useful information or anything interesting to say, then you should keep your stupid ass comments to yourself.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend and hope that he/she makes a full recovery
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trenchdigger
Feb 17, 2005, 3:10 PM
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This should be taken with a grain of salt as it is coming from a climber with no ice experience...
I would be interested in seeing the fractured regions of ice where the screws pulled. It sounds fishy to me that a 17 cm screw in "solid" ice would not hold a slipping-sliding, very low fall-factor fall. The successive failures indicate similar quality of placements, although it seems from the fall description that the lower screws would be subjected to greater loads in the fall than the top screw.
Were screamers in use on these screws? If so, did they deploy? How experienced was the leader at placing screws and evaluating ice quality?
I wish him a speedy recovery. Thanks for posting.
~Adam~
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cfnubbler
Feb 17, 2005, 3:10 PM
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In reply to: My suggestion is stay in New Mexico and stop ice climbing because if you can't negotiate a simple snow ramp then ice climbing isn't for you.
And my suggestion to you is to refrain from posting such assinine responses. If you have nothing useful to contribute, please don't bother. What an @sshole.
To the O.P.- I hope your friend recovers well.
A few questions come to mind for me...
How long has the leader been climbing ice? I ask because obviously his assessement of the screw placements was off a bit...screws can be hard to evaluate.
Was the pitch in the direct sun? What was the temperature out? Cold can mean many things to many people. How long did it take the leader to complete the pitch?
How certain of the length of the pitch and the distance between the final screw and the ledge from which he fell are you? I ask because these things directly effect the forces generated and the impact force on the pro.
-Nubbler
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taualum23
Feb 17, 2005, 3:17 PM
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In reply to: My suggestion is stay in New Mexico and stop ice climbing because if you can't negotiate a simple snow ramp then ice climbing isn't for you. Take up basketball or water skiing.
I haven't read the rest of the responses, but dude, you are an asshole. If you even read the whole post you would know it happened to a friend of his, he wasn't there. Also, a fellow climber is in a wheelchair. If you have ever actually climbed outside, you know accidents happen to the best of the best (talk to Jack Tackle sometime). Don't be a prick.
To the OP. I would also like to know the experience level of the leader. In REALLY good ice, 4 screws in 40-60 feet pulling....I'd bbe interested in hearing more before making a guess.
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sarcat
Feb 17, 2005, 3:39 PM
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LIke others have already said: kailas your and @ss.
Like others have already said: there are so many variables. For having all the screws pop I'm happy your friend is alive and appears to make a good recovery.
See if you can answer some of the questions already asked and also:
1. What was the type/make of rope?
2. What was the weight of the climber?
3. An evaluation of the ice seems most important. What was it REALLY like?
4. Placement of screws and pro used? Any screamers?
Hope to hear from you soon.
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killclimbz
Feb 17, 2005, 4:00 PM
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I don't care how solid the ice was, ice screws are still not cams or bolts, rockgear in general. If you take a big enough fall the ice will fail. Certainly sounds like this maybe the case.
Sorry to hear about your friend. Those injuries sound horrible, but at least he's alive and is making a recovery. Best wishes.
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moonshine505
Feb 17, 2005, 4:02 PM
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OK some more info...
The leader has 2 seasons of ice climbing, and climbs every weekend during the season. I'll admit I immediately questioned the quality of the placements due to his experience level. I'll look into this a little more. Same goes for his evaluation of the ice, so if he comes back and says it was bomber, that doesn't help us much...
Leader weighs about 150lbs
No screamers were on the screws
They were climbing on a single rope, I'll get the manufacturer/diameter
Kalias, thanks for the constructive feedback
MM
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reno
Feb 17, 2005, 4:17 PM
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Moonshine:
I apologize that kalias is acting like a jerk. We get such people on these forums from time to time, and there's really nothing more to say.
Photos of the screw placements would be nice, but obviously not practical.
My guess, and it's just that... a guess... would be that the ice was less solid than the leader initially believed.
Funny thing, ice: It may look good and be crap, or it may look crap and be good.
I wish your friend a speedy recovery.
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cfnubbler
Feb 17, 2005, 4:19 PM
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I'm really curious to know the temperature and whether the pitch was in direct sunlight...it never ceases to amaze me how fast initially "bomber" screws can melt out in direct sun. Which brings up an interesting question...why do the major screw manufacturers all produce screws with black hangers? Presumably there's a reason, but it seems to contribute to melt-out in my experience.
Maldaly, any insight?
-Nubbler
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maldaly
Feb 17, 2005, 4:55 PM
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killclimz
A few years ago Craigh Luebben and Chris Harmston (then from BD) did some testing of ice screws in real ice in Ouray. They placed screws in a variety of ice below the bridges and dropped (FF2) 80kG weights on them. In some cases the ice screws held to over 15kn if I recall correctly. The test was written up in Climbing or R&I. True, ice screws can be really bad, but, on the other hand, a good screw in good ice is as bomber as any cam or any bolt.
Mal
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lambone
Feb 17, 2005, 5:14 PM
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Question, if he was leading the fourth pitch of the climb, how does he end up in the snow at the bottom of the 1st pitch after the fall? This doesn't make any sense and is a major hole in the account.
In reply to: The leader remarked that while placing the screws, he was amazed at how solid the ice coming through the tube of the screw was, no air bubbles or fractures. The pitch ends on a snowy near-horizontal ledge, from which you set up an anchor. The last screw he placed was about 10' below this ledge. MM
couple things...(10 seasons of ice experience here)
1. Ice doesn't come out of the center of ice screws like that when you place them. It's all chopped and ground up into shards...regardles of how good or crappy the ice is.
2. Not using Screamers and using a single rope is a mistake. higher fall factor on the screws
3. you should allways place one last screw before topping out over a buldge onto a ledge. 10 ft below is quite a ways, you fall pulling onto the ledge and that is a 20 ft fall. 90% of ice climbing falls I read about are pulling the buldge at the end of the climb.
4. You should be very carefull on snow slabs on ledges of ice climbs, they sometimes slide off.
5. The pitch isn't over until you've clipped the anchors.
6. ice climbing is dangerous
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icenwy
Feb 17, 2005, 5:16 PM
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I read that article maldaly, and what I though was the most interesting point was the angle of the screw placement. I believe it said the screws held best when placed with 10-15 degree upward placement. Sometimes this is impossible to do.
To the original poster, I hope your friend(s) make a speedy recovery. Was the ice sun-focked?
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kman
Feb 17, 2005, 5:59 PM
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In reply to: This should be taken with a grain of salt as it is coming from a climber with no ice experience... I would be interested in seeing the fractured regions of ice where the screws pulled. It sounds fishy to me that a 17 cm screw in "solid" ice would not hold a slipping-sliding, very low fall-factor fall. ~Adam~
You might want to rethink this. The screw was placed 10' below the ledge. It wasn't a slipping / sliding fall!! think about it a bit. Once he slid off the ledge that's a 20' fall onto the top screw.
What I want to know is how he ended up on the snowfield at the bottom of the climb if he fell from the top of the 4th pitch. Did the belayer not catch him?? Or are they all super short pitches? Or was the snow field between pitches as in climb a pitch walk to the next pitch ect...?
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cfnubbler
Feb 17, 2005, 6:01 PM
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In reply to: 2. Not using Screamers and using a single rope is a mistake. higher fall factor on the screws
I agree on the importance of screamers. In the last 5 years or so, I've gradually transitioned to using them on all screws. Why not? But screamers have absolutely nothing to do with fall factors. Are you referring to peak impact forces?
In reply to: I read that article maldaly, and what I though was the most interesting point was the angle of the screw placement. I believe it said the screws held best when placed with 10-15 degree upward placement.
No...what the article said was that in high quality ice, the preferred angle in the testing was ~10 degrees beneath perpendicular to the ice surface. The idea was that in good ice, it was best to rely on the threads of screws to resist pullout-loads rather than the barrel to resist a shear-load.
In most other cases, the traditional ~10 degrees above perpendicular was a better bet. But it also said that it was very difficult to judge ice and placement quality consistently. After 15 years on the ice, I definitely agree.
-Nubbler
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moonshine505
Feb 17, 2005, 6:04 PM
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Lambone...good catch, I think there's an error in there. I know he had to be lowered only once to reach the ground, which I assumed placed him lowering down pitch 1...but then the math wouldn't add up if he was leading pitch 4. I think this is an error either in his re-telling or my own memort, and he was in fact leading pitch three, but as with the other questions here, I'll clarify for better information.
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icenwy
Feb 17, 2005, 6:06 PM
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Thanks for clearing it up nubbler, it's been awhile since I read the article. That's is why I didn't say it conclusively when I made the post.
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fishbelly
Feb 17, 2005, 6:26 PM
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Good Job you survived.
Make it a learning experiance.
Things happen we can not control. We choose how to react and go on untill the deck gets reshuffled again.
There are no good ice placements. Until they are tested by a fall.
Some may inspire more than others, But it is only ice formed at random, melts refreezes at various temps and densities.
Try to get odds fron vegas on a ice placement
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tuna
Feb 17, 2005, 6:55 PM
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On the comment about the ice coming out of the screws when he placed them.
The ice gets ground up yes. But it is left inside the screw until you either blow it out or you reuse the screw. It could be your friend was placing the screws and judging the ice that was from the prior usage where it has a chance to thaw slightly then refreeze. It might have led him to believe he was screwing into hard ice by the extra force needed to screw the screw in by forcing out the old frozen ice from the core.
Tell your friend to do his PT and I hope he will be out climbing again soon.
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anykineclimb
Feb 18, 2005, 4:22 AM
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Hmm, very good point tuna. Never even considered that.
Malcome, I read that article in Rock and Ice(?). Very interesting.
I was surprised that a lot of gear failed during testing, but the screws themselves held.
OP, sounds like your friend landed on a snowy ledge, not quite bottom, but big enough for him to land on?
Hope he get better soon.
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johnhemlock
Feb 18, 2005, 4:32 AM
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kind of cheesy to quote myself but I snipped this out of another discussion regarding the article (Climbing, Nov 1997) being discussed in this thread. . .
In reply to: Was re-reading the results of an old drop test that Craig Leubben and Chris Harmston did in Ouray about 10 years ago. They heaved 185 pound weights off the waterfalls and ledgered the results. In drops of 16 to 28 feet, the screw ripped out of the ice 7 out of 12 times. Carabiners broke 3 times. Admittedly, these tests were harsh (static belay) but even after they added a soft catch, Leubben wrote that, "I was occasionally shocked by having what I thought was a bomber piece fail at a low load." Haven't seen a similar test on newer the newer screw designs but thought it was interesting. As far as brand names, Leubben's point was that the quality of ice is much more important than the brand of screw. None of the screws (except an Ushba) broke at loads of less than 3000 pounds in good ice. They ALL pulled in bad ice. Get the ones that go in easiest. Not exactly apropos for this thread but I thought the results (though somewhat incomplete) were still fairly empirical.
I guess Leubben's quote about bomber pro failing at low load is appropriate to this discussion. I hope your friend makes a speedy recovery!
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lambone
Feb 18, 2005, 5:01 AM
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In reply to: On the comment about the ice coming out of the screws when he placed them. The ice gets ground up yes. But it is left inside the screw until you either blow it out or you reuse the screw. It could be your friend was placing the screws and judging the ice that was from the prior usage where it has a chance to thaw slightly then refreeze. It might have led him to believe he was screwing into hard ice by the extra force needed to screw the screw in by forcing out the old frozen ice from the core.
Um, not exactly....
...some of the ice comes out of the end of the screw as you are placing it. It doesn't tell you much, but if it stops coming out it means you have hit a hollow spot. If there is prior ice in the screw from a previous pitch it is nearly impossible to place unless removed first. This is ice screw 101 stuff...
In reply to: But screamers have absolutely nothing to do with fall factors. Are you referring to peak impact forces?
yes, that's what I meant.
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crimp2bfree
Feb 19, 2005, 10:32 PM
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It would also be nice to know how far up the snow ramp he was when he fell. It sounded like there was an attempt to self arrest. This would mean he simply isn't moving over the top of the bulge but somewhere beyond that. It would seem at least 5ft past the bulge would be needed to even think about attempting a self arrest. That would make it a least a 30ft fall, and possibly more. Without doing any calculations, a 30ft fall on a decent screw without a screamer using a single rope seems like it might be enough to blow even a good screw. I won't go into this more due to a lack of experience.
Another thing that needs to be straightened out is the sequence of the fall. Where exactly was the ledge he hit and broke his legs? If it was at the top of the 3rd pitch then some wierd things happened. Basicly how did he manage to pull his first and second screw on the pitch? Assume the pitch is 60ft, he takes a minimum 20ft fall initially. That puts him 40ft up. 4th screw blows. If it is 10ft to the 3rd screw, he will land on it when he is at 20ft up. If that blows, he hits the ledge and breaks his legs. That leaves two screws in and the leader slows down a lot in the process of breaking his legs.
So what happened that allowed enough energy input into the sytem to blow the remaining two screws? The specific placement of the srews could account for this. But looking at the likely sequance of the fall it points to the idea that the placements were something much less than ideal. Knowledge of the route and where the screws were placed on the pitch are really needed to figure this all out.
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couchwarrior
Feb 19, 2005, 11:05 PM
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In reply to: I am sorry to say it is the first time I am told that an experienced person is climbing on ice with a normal single rope
Huh!? I guess all those photos I've seen of Ferguson, various Lowes, Roberts, Fowler, JoJo, Chouinard, Anker, Belcourt, Twight, Callis, Blanchard, Gadd, Garvey, and Haston climbing ice on single ropes were photoshopped!
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tradmanclimbs
Feb 20, 2005, 12:38 AM
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Screamers are a must. Doubble ropes help tremendously when gear fails because if you have staggered your clips fom the red rope to the blue, if gear fails on red rope then the next chance to be caught is going to be on blue which should be fresh and ready to absorb energy. on a single rope the rope gets streached when the gear is loaded, if the gear fails and the rope does not have time to recover before you hit the next piece. You hit the next piece with a rope that is still streached and has way less energy absortion ability. It has been shown in tests that you should actualy give a single rope several min. un weighted to recover between attempts when working a rt and falling. with that in mind it is allmost a gaurentee that when a single rope rips gear that it will keep ripping gear untill you hit something truely bomber. My last real test of that theory pulled 3 pieces but stopped on a #12 Chiounard stopper. The fact that you are talking colorado sunshine in this case also may have been a factor. Screws melt out quickly, no screamers, single rope, go splat.
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jimdavis
Feb 20, 2005, 2:53 AM
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To the OP,
The screw pull outs made me wonder about a few things:
What kind of belay device was used? Munter, GriGri, ATC, 8, ect.
What type of screws were used? High relieve threaded screws like BD, CM, or Grivel? Or were they Snargs? Or Ti screws with low profile threads? I think if a screw with low relief threads was placed at a downward angle, it'd pull right out. The screw type would be really usefull to know.
Also, how long did the pitch take to finish? Did the leader cover his screws in snow? The sun could have helped melt a screw out a lot faster.
Screamers, and half ropes...they probably would have helped, but 4 screws ripping out seems like there was something else going on. Especially 17cm screws pulling (depending on their type).
Let us know, we'll offer what advice we can.
Hope me makes a full recovery!
Jim
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tradmanclimbs
Feb 20, 2005, 3:19 AM
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Jim I have to dissagree with your statement that 4 screws ripping sounds fishy. It makes perfect sense. If the first screw failes with a single rope and no screamers the second screw gets hit with a dead rope that has verry little energy absorbtion left in it. With the absence of screamers and the dead rope, the subsequent screws are pretty much doomed. With rock gear this scenario sometimes breaks biners or causes otherwise bomber cams to break. It is not really a static rope but it sure isn't much of a dynamic at this point either.
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jimdavis
Feb 20, 2005, 3:30 AM
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In reply to: Jim I have to dissagree with your statement that 4 screws ripping sounds fishy. It makes perfect sense. If the first screw failes with a single rope and no screamers the second screw gets hit with a dead rope that has verry little energy absorbtion left in it. With the absence of screamers and the dead rope, the subsequent screws are pretty much doomed. With rock gear this scenario sometimes breaks biners or causes otherwise bomber cams to break. It is not really a static rope but it sure isn't much of a dynamic at this point either.
I know what your getting at, and I understand your point. However, I don't think I've ever heard of a biner breaking in recent history that had the gate closed, where something else wasn't at work. I've also talked to Metolius about cam faliure before and they've had 1 cam break in the past 15 or 20 years, and it was the cables over an sharp edge.....
The belay should have slipped a little bit though, unless it was a Grigri, and a little bit of slip can reduce that peak force by a hell of a lot.
I'm no expert on lead fall physics, but I still think there's something we don't know about that may have made a big difference (screw types, belay type, ect).
Cheers,
Jim
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tradmanclimbs
Feb 20, 2005, 11:26 AM
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the sweedish guy had broken biner but we don't know if it's user error/edge related, I saw a snapped off tech friend in an aussi mag so it can happen but it is really rare. It being colorado though I bet it ws a combination of sunshine and single rope / no screamers. We had a simeler incident at lake Willoughby this year where a climber ripped all his screws and decked with verry serious injuries. Single rope, no screamers, sunbaked ice, splat. The biggest isue on ice climbing is remembering that the leader does NOT FALL. All the modern gear in the world can't gaurentee your safty in a leader fall on ice. One of our local hardmen Rockytop was chugging up a pillar on mindbender 5+ when a climber pitched off of nearby Plug an Chug. Rocky was heard to exclaim mid swing "somebody tell those guys that this ain't sport climbing!!!!"
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papounet
Feb 20, 2005, 10:09 PM
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What is the weight of the climber who fell ?
all typical fall computations are with a 80kg (174 pounds).
a 100 kg climber fall generates more energy.
I do not have my computation handy, but is is quite straightforward to compute.
And of course all my wishes for a speedy and full recovery
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crimp2bfree
Feb 20, 2005, 10:15 PM
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The change in weight would be essentially linearly proportional. 1/2mV^2. So 100kg climber would generate 25% more energy. If the OP is still looking for a better analysis we need more details, mainly about the route/position of pro.
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tradmanclimbs
Feb 21, 2005, 12:34 AM
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This is ice we are talking about here Not Rock. the most important piece of info is TEMPERATURE and weather or not the screws were in direct sunlight. Even in pretty cold temps screws will start to melt out if in direct sunlight. ever look at a thermometer that is on the sunny side of the house? It may be 0 degreesF in the shade but the thermometer in the sun will soak up the heat and read +50F if it is an old style one in a metal frame and wind sheltered. Screwhangers are metal and Black as sin.
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jimdavis
Feb 21, 2005, 1:52 AM
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[quote="tradmanclimbs"]the sweedish guy had broken biner but we don't know if it's user error/edge related, I saw a snapped off tech friend in an aussi mag so it can happen but it is really rare.quote]
Do you mean a snapped Forged Friend? I dunno how Tech friends could "snap"...
For the biner, was the gate intact?
Thanks,
Jim
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crackrn
Feb 21, 2005, 2:53 AM
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In reply to: ...Kalias, thanks for the constructive feedback MM
Nice, classy response to an absolute jackass comment.
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tradmanclimbs
Feb 21, 2005, 11:42 AM
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The swedish guy that ripped gear and then broke a biner to his death I don't know if anyone here on the site ever saw a picture of the biner? I do know the accident was hashed to death with the usual limited facts and hearsay that we have here on the site. I think his name was Kohl? as for the photo of the snapped off WC tech friend it was either in Gripped or an aussi mag. It was before i got into these climbing sites so I am guessing 5 years ago? It was in a shallow placement and the cable was ripped right out of the head of the cam. It was with a warning about shallow placements.
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gonzo
Feb 21, 2005, 1:25 PM
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The temperature fluctuations on the previous days could also be interesting. If you have very rapid cooling or heating you would be forming layers of ice with different consistencies. Two different layers of ice would result in a definite weakness. I know he said that when he got to the ledge the snow gave way ... that is most probabbly due to the angle but perhaps the layering was also a part of the problem.
Perhaps when he placed the screw the outside layer seemed strong but the inner layers where soft or rotten. This is all speculative but things to maybe think about.
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f_thomas
Feb 21, 2005, 2:21 PM
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kailas - :?: :troll: you trolling for an idiot award?
I clicked on the post to learn something. Not an ice climber nor have I even studied it to any degree. However, I've got to say that Kailas' post has to be one of the worst example of what this forum has to offer.
OP Hope your friend recovers well and thanks for bringing to light his experience. We call all learn something from it - ice climber or not!
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papounet
Feb 22, 2005, 12:25 AM
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In reply to: The swedish guy that ripped gear and then broke a biner to his death
The accident you refer to would be Goran Kropp death at Frenchman coulee on Air Guitar ??
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jimdavis
Feb 22, 2005, 12:40 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: The swedish guy that ripped gear and then broke a biner to his death The accident you refer to would be Goran Kropp death at Frenchman coulee on Air Guitar ??
That's what it sounds like. Some of what I remember hearing about that was about gear being clipped with stiff quickdraws, and that it possibly contributed to his gear pulling. I thought I heard the biner was open when it failed...am I wrong?
Thanks,
Jim
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climbnb
Feb 22, 2005, 11:38 PM
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The whole story doesn't make sense to me. 4 screws all ripping? Even after the leader hits a big ledge and unfortunately takes most of the force in his body. Also distances just don't add up unless the belayer messed up. 4 pitches up, even with the last pitch being only 60 feet, it should be impossible to hit the deck unless the first three pitches were only 20 or 25 feet each. Assuming the 4th pitch is 60 feet, and say there was some slack in the system, max fall height should be only 60+60+stretch+any slack = 140ish feet. Taking off the 60 feet for the last pitch, leader should be max 80ish feet below the belay (which unless pitches are very short, he shouldn't even have reached the belay ledge at the bottom of the 3rd pitch). Also, why didn't the belay screws rip with what may have been a factor 2 fall on them? So obviously all the ice was not crap and the leader was able to place some good pro.
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timsesink
Feb 23, 2005, 12:12 AM
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Guys
I rhink you're all missing something key!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He said when he placed the screws the ice came out like a perfect tube and had no bubbles or anything!! This screams rotten ice or something simliar, ice coming out of a screw shoud be chopped up. It also doesn't help that the last screw was 10 feet down and that he was on single rope with no screamers! If solid ice comes from your screw then get the F@%# off the ice!! Anways hope your freind recovers soon. We all make mistakes and sooner or later someone gets caught.
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tradmanclimbs
Feb 23, 2005, 1:33 AM
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Makers perfect sense to me. Sunny colorado ice, no screamers, single rope. rip and splat.
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jimdavis
Feb 24, 2005, 3:33 AM
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In reply to: Guys I rhink you're all missing something key!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He said when he placed the screws the ice came out like a perfect tube and had no bubbles or anything!! This screams rotten ice or something simliar, ice coming out of a screw shoud be chopped up. It also doesn't help that the last screw was 10 feet down and that he was on single rope with no screamers! If solid ice comes from your screw then get the F@%# off the ice!! Anways hope your freind recovers soon. We all make mistakes and sooner or later someone gets caught.
It's just about impossible to get solid ice to come out of a screw. It's simple displacement... I don't think that's what the OP was talking about.
Jim
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mack_north
Feb 24, 2005, 4:21 AM
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In reply to: It's just about impossible to get solid ice to come out of a screw. It's simple displacement... I don't think that's what the OP was talking about. Jim
No offense amigo but didn't you post elsewhere that you've had "about one lead" of ice in your life? Maybe you should resist critiquing lead accidents. Unless you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, of course!
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reno
Feb 24, 2005, 4:23 AM
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In reply to: Also distances just don't add up unless the belayer messed up. 4 pitches up, even with the last pitch being only 60 feet, it should be impossible to hit the deck unless the first three pitches were only 20 or 25 feet each.
I thought about this too, and wondered what I was missing.
I suppose there are several things that might be in play:
1. "The Deck" might mean different things... The OP might be using the term "Deck" to mean "a flat surface" which could include a ledge, where you and I might be using "deck" to mean "the flat gound at the very bottom of the climb, where you ended the approach hike."
2. Some climbs have numerous ledges between/among the pitches. Think of Johnny Vegas/Solar Slab in Red Rock Canyon. You climb the first three pitches (JV), and you've reached a huge ledge. Then you start your fourth pitch, which is the FIRST pitch of Solar Slab, and fall. You rip all the gear and reach the ledge. You have, technically, "decked" from falling on the 4th pitch of the day, but you haven't reached the ground.
Probably a communication breakdown between the OP and us, climbnb.
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barkeatervt
Mar 2, 2005, 4:08 AM
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If he set up two screws for an anchor and he was clipped in to both top anchors, why did he put so much stress on the system?
There must have been a lot slack in the line, or it would have caught him within a few feet from where he fell.
I assume he was still on belay, or safely tied into the anchor! :roll:
I agree with reno, also, if the screws were placed in the armpit of the ledge on short quick draws, and the belay was in a bad spot, a zipper effect is highly possible.
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moonshine505
Mar 30, 2005, 3:04 PM
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Hey folks, thought I'd post a follow-up. First, thanks for all the replies, it's obvious that there is a fair amount of knowledge to be tapped in the contributors to the site. That being said, Let me answer a few questions I saw in some of the replies...
1. The injured climber is an aquaintance of mine who HAS been ice climbing every weekend for 2 years...at the Ouray ice park...on TOP ROPE. He sheepishly admitted to me after the fact that the climb in question was his second lead experience ever. Sounds to me like someone who toproped a bunch at a climbing gym and then loaded up his shiny new cams, set out on a 4 pitch route, and wondered why his cams didn't hold on basically the first time he used them. The guy is my friend, but this decision seems like an invitation to disaster, and I'm dissappointed in his judgement. I'd say this was the single biggest contribution to the accident, doubt there will be much disagreement.
2. Leader still maintains that the ice came out in a solid tube out the back end of the screws he placed. I wouldn't have known this was unusual, but from the responses, it sounds like it was. The screws were petzl/charlet, I believe belay device was an ATC-type, not a GriGri or a figure8
3. Leader weighs about 150lbs, short but pretty built
4. Yes, the climb was tiered, with ledges between each pitch, that is what allowed the belayer to walk off the top of the first pitch to get help after rapping down to where the leaders fall had stopped. It was when he hit the ledge at the top of pitch 2 that he did all the damage to his legs, the fall to the top of pitch 1 was more insult to injury, he landed on his back in deep snow and was "unresponsive" to his belayer for about 10 minutes, but does not recall losing consciousness, nor did he have any head injuries. Although I've seen pictures of the climb and wouldn't classify the pitches as "short" per se, I don't think they were pitches defined by rope length as much as they are defined by the fact that you climb a ways, hit a ledge/snow band, traverse easy ground, climb another pitch, etc. So it;s the wandering, tiered nature of the climb that defines the pitches.
5. leader is still in a wheelchair after 6 surgeries, his right leg took the most damage and has a certain Terminator -like quality to it now that it has so much metal holding things together. He should be out of the wheelchair and into rehab in about another month. He considers himself lucky. I agree.
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mtnbkrxtrordnair
Mar 30, 2005, 4:21 PM
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Quoting Michael Crowder if I may, an ice accident report which may or may not be pertinent to this discussion, but an interesting read none the less:
i personally would retire the screamer but i have a couple of dozen lying around so i will never run short. i use a screamer on every single piece of ice protection placed. i have been ice climbing for 25 plus years and took my first lead fall about three years ago. i ripped out every piece of pro i had placed on the way to the ground but only after ripping all the tacks on the screamers that i had them clipped with.
the fall went like this.... fall, rope tightens, screamer starts ripping, almost stop, pro pulls, fall, rope tightens, screamer starts ripping, almost stop, pro pulls, fall, rope tighten, screamer starts ripping, almost stop, pro pulls, hit ground. i landed on my ice axe which poked a hole in my goretex coat, fleece jacket, underwear, and just barely scratched the surface of my skin between two of my ribs. had i hit the ground any harder i would have had a punctured lung. did the screamers help? they probably saved my life. witnesses said that everytime i loaded a piece of gear it would slow me almost to a stop before it blew. when the last piece caught me i was only about 6 feet off the ground and i almost came to a complete stop before it ripped. therefore it was only the equivelent of a short bouldering fall when i impacted the ground.
the reason for the fall was 25 years of experience and overconfidence. i assumed i could climb anything and get away with it because i had never fallen in 20 plus years of ice climbing. don't flame someone because they have only been ice climbing for three years when they fell. amount of experience is not an important factor in this case. in my deal i didn't fall because i could not hold on. the ice desentegrated on me because i was trying to get one more climb in on a day when the temps were in the high 40's, it was actively raining and the ice was thin to begin with. i knew it was risky but thought the risk was worth the reward. in the same situation i would probably do the same thing over again. in fact i have and continue to get away with it. might pay for it next time but thems the risks. i would say continue to use the screamer until you can replace it and do that as soon as possible. private message me and tell me where this place is so i can go chop on it a little.
michael
www.coolclimbing.com
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reubenharris
May 26, 2005, 5:24 PM
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I am the person who was injured in this accident. I found this forum when my buddy forwarded the forum post last week to me.
I have been climbing for 2 seasons, and this was a back country accident where I fell due to numerous circumstances. It had a little to do with the ice conidtions, my inexperience lead climbing, the fact that I climbed another wall the day before near by (allday), the snow conditions around the climb, and the time of day. The lack of screamers definitely did not help the situation, and the ice seamed solid when the screws were placed. I was so tired by the time I finished that pitch I did not place a screw at the apex on the top of the pitch. Those were my fatal mistakes!
More experience, better screw placment would have helped out forsure.
Kailas comment shows his insensitivity to fellow climbers. If we happen to meet, you can guarantee you will be getting an ass kicking from me by my now healed broken feet.
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mtnbkrxtrordnair
May 26, 2005, 6:04 PM
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Ruben,
Glad to hear you've made a (hopefully) full recovery, so I guess your mistake wasn't fatal. Don't bother with the jerks, anyway it would probably hurt if you planted your foot in his A**.
I'm sure you have gained some valuable experience. Hope you get back on the horse next season.
Cheers, MtnBiker
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majid_sabet
May 26, 2005, 6:20 PM
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"While walking on this ledge to set up the anchor, the snow gave out underneath him and he basically lost his footing and fell. He was unable to self arrest and slid slowly backwards over the edge. Here's where things really get interesting. As he falls, all 4 screws he placed on lead pull, leaving on the pitch only the two that were placed where the second was anchored for the belay. The leader hits the ledge at the top of the pitch below him feet first, breaking pretty much everything below his knees, then falls off this ledge and the length of the first pitch, landing on his back on a snowfield. "
Could you rewrite this again, you were leading and your partner was belaying you, you placed 4 screws (How far apart ?), then you took fall near the top . How many screws were used for anchor? and how far were the other 2 screw apart? also the distance between you and the belay when you fell ?
I hope you get well .
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