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andrewbanandrew
Feb 27, 2005, 5:53 AM
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For a TR anchor set up with two lockers on the bolts, a sling, and two lockers opposed at the powerpoint, does the shape of the lockers matter? HMS/Pear/D/Asym D/Oval...?
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rockmaninoff
Feb 27, 2005, 6:00 AM
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The important thing here is that the shape of the two biners should be identical--don't mix and match. I probably wouldn't use two pears.
And I'd want more than one sling.
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kman
Feb 27, 2005, 6:42 AM
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In reply to: The important thing here is that the shape of the two biners should be identical--don't mix and match. I probably wouldn't use two pears. And I'd want more than one sling.
And why exactly should they be identical?
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republiclimber
Feb 27, 2005, 6:56 AM
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because style is worth 1 point.
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rockmaninoff
Feb 27, 2005, 7:23 AM
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1. Style, of course, is most important.
2. Safety. If you have a huge pearabiner and a dinky screwlock, the smaller biner will be holding all the weight. It could conceivably be at risk of getting bent by the other biner.
3. Less rope drag through the anchor.
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andrewbanandrew
Feb 27, 2005, 7:28 AM
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I noticed that pears, at the store, when opposed, rubbed their gates on each others spines...I'm assuming this is bad thing
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ctardi
Feb 27, 2005, 7:29 AM
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In reply to: 1. Style, of course, is most important. 2. Safety. If you have a huge pearabiner and a dinky screwlock, the smaller biner will be holding all the weight. It could conceivably be at risk of getting bent by the other biner. 3. Less rope drag through the anchor.
Numbers 2 and 3 are not true, not all anchor points are at an identical or perfect height for the direction of load, wich to equalize you may have to make one side shorter then the other.
Also if you had a big locker and a small locker, you would shorten your webbing or sling accordingly.
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all_that_is_rock
Feb 27, 2005, 7:38 AM
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make sue that sling has an equalized 8 or somthing. you could use the strongest biner in the world, but if one side of the anchor goes thats curtans unless you have a redundant system
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monkeyarm
Feb 27, 2005, 8:03 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: 1. Style, of course, is most important. 2. Safety. If you have a huge pearabiner and a dinky screwlock, the smaller biner will be holding all the weight. It could conceivably be at risk of getting bent by the other biner. 3. Less rope drag through the anchor. Numbers 2 and 3 are not true, not all anchor points are at an identical or perfect height for the direction of load, wich to equalize you may have to make one side shorter then the other. Also if you had a big locker and a small locker, you would shorten your webbing or sling accordingly.
not ideally since bothe biners should go through both slings or webbing from teh anchors, so that if a biner faulters you still have to anchor points intact.
also if the biner is too asymetrical when setting up the biners they can actually pinch the rope in certain situations, but if you flip your biners around a couple times you can easily see the senario
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smearhound
Feb 27, 2005, 2:34 PM
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This, from the 2004 Metolius catalog:
“Many climbers do not realize that pear-shaped carabiners should only be used in belay-rappel situations. A wide, pear shape is ideal for use in conjunction with a plate-style device. . . or a Munter hitch. . . . If the carabiner is loaded on the spine side of the major axis, it will meet the major axis rated strength. But, if the carabiner is loaded on the gate side of the major axis, you can expect it to fail at half the rated strength. We have tested all major brands and none of the pear-shaped carabiners will even come close to meeting their rated strength when tested on the gate side of the major axis. These carabiners were designed to be used only in conjunction with a plate-style belay device. . . or with a Munter hitch. For clipping into belay station and building anchors, always use a ‘D’ style carabiner. . . . The ‘D’ shape makes loading the gate side of the major axis almost impossible.”
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gunksgoer
Feb 27, 2005, 3:06 PM
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In reply to: This, from the 2004 Metolius catalog: “Many climbers do not realize that pear-shaped carabiners should only be used in belay-rappel situations. A wide, pear shape is ideal for use in conjunction with a plate-style device. . . or a Munter hitch. . . . If the carabiner is loaded on the spine side of the major axis, it will meet the major axis rated strength. But, if the carabiner is loaded on the gate side of the major axis, you can expect it to fail at half the rated strength. We have tested all major brands and none of the pear-shaped carabiners will even come close to meeting their rated strength when tested on the gate side of the major axis. These carabiners were designed to be used only in conjunction with a plate-style belay device. . . or with a Munter hitch. For clipping into belay station and building anchors, always use a ‘D’ style carabiner. . . . The ‘D’ shape makes loading the gate side of the major axis almost impossible.”
hmmm, so that means no pears at the powerpoint? seems like everyone does that, im glad i use a small D locker :righton:
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cracklover
Feb 27, 2005, 4:24 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: This, from the 2004 Metolius catalog: “Many climbers do not realize that pear-shaped carabiners should only be used in belay-rappel situations. A wide, pear shape is ideal for use in conjunction with a plate-style device. . . or a Munter hitch. . . . If the carabiner is loaded on the spine side of the major axis, it will meet the major axis rated strength. But, if the carabiner is loaded on the gate side of the major axis, you can expect it to fail at half the rated strength. We have tested all major brands and none of the pear-shaped carabiners will even come close to meeting their rated strength when tested on the gate side of the major axis. These carabiners were designed to be used only in conjunction with a plate-style belay device. . . or with a Munter hitch. For clipping into belay station and building anchors, always use a ‘D’ style carabiner. . . . The ‘D’ shape makes loading the gate side of the major axis almost impossible.” hmmm, so that means no pears at the powerpoint? seems like everyone does that, im glad i use a small D locker :righton:
Give me a break. How are you going to get 20kN of force on a TR setup?
The answer to the question is NO. It does not matter. Use two lockers (or three non-lockers) for the "power-point" of a toprope setup, and you're fine.
GO
Edited to say: I do appreciate the link, smearhound, and I created another thread to discuss the importance of the above in multipitch climbing. I think the importance there *is* significant. Click here for discussion on that topic.
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racebannon
Feb 27, 2005, 5:37 PM
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I have always used 4 ovals opposing each other at the power point.
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nicklikesfire
Feb 27, 2005, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: This, from the 2004 Metolius catalog: “Many climbers do not realize that pear-shaped carabiners should only be used in belay-rappel situations. A wide, pear shape is ideal for use in conjunction with a plate-style device. . . or a Munter hitch. . . . If the carabiner is loaded on the spine side of the major axis, it will meet the major axis rated strength. But, if the carabiner is loaded on the gate side of the major axis, you can expect it to fail at half the rated strength. We have tested all major brands and none of the pear-shaped carabiners will even come close to meeting their rated strength when tested on the gate side of the major axis. These carabiners were designed to be used only in conjunction with a plate-style belay device. . . or with a Munter hitch. For clipping into belay station and building anchors, always use a ‘D’ style carabiner. . . . The ‘D’ shape makes loading the gate side of the major axis almost impossible.”
wow, that is news to me. I'm glad someone told me. not that it will stop me from using OP jakes in TR setups. people tend to see those and think "what a good gift for a climber," now I have way more than I will ever need for belaying.
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chriss
Feb 27, 2005, 6:56 PM
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In reply to: I noticed that pears, at the store, when opposed, rubbed their gates on each others spines...I'm assuming this is bad thing
Yes this is a bad thing. It is more the locking mechanism that interferes. This would create a bending point when pressed against something (rock, other biner, etc). This is most common when using 2 symetrical locking biners opposite and opposed.
I think that in this case, you are better served using 1 biner than 2.
chriss
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cracklover
Feb 27, 2005, 7:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I noticed that pears, at the store, when opposed, rubbed their gates on each others spines...I'm assuming this is bad thing Yes this is a bad thing. It is more the locking mechanism that interferes. This would create a bending point when pressed against something (rock, other biner, etc). This is most common when using 2 symetrical locking biners opposite and opposed. I think that in this case, you are better served using 1 biner than 2. chriss
I'm sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting that for toproping with symetrical locking biners, you are better off using one than two? If so, that is terrible advice.
GO
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korntera
Feb 27, 2005, 8:22 PM
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Yes it does matter, don't use biners that say "not for climbing" or any biner that you would trust to your keys.
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kobaz
Feb 27, 2005, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: I have always used 4 ovals opposing each other at the power point.
Woah, hold on there. If you use more than two biners you actually make the system worse. One biner is fine (make it a locker), and two non-lockers are fine (make them opposite and opposed), but using three or more biners at the power point is a no-no.
If you have three biners, the outside two are taking all the weight and are squeezing the inner biner and the inner biner will not be load bearing. I don't have the numbers offhand, but if you took a huge fall using three biners at the power point, you are essentially crushing the inner biner.
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d.ben
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Feb 27, 2005, 10:32 PM
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I am pretty concerned with safety, but even if those pear shaped lockers got loaded wrong and the strength was reduced to 1/2 ( 10kn), on a TR fall it shouldn't even be near that much force. According to a rock and Ice tip, 12 kn is enough to smash organs inside of your body, and I have friends who have take lead falls 10+ feet onto Blue Aliens which are 8kn.
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smearhound
Feb 27, 2005, 11:02 PM
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In reply to: Edited to say: I do appreciate the link, smearhound, and I created another thread to discuss the importance of the above in multipitch climbing. I think the importance there *is* significant. Click here for discussion on that topic.
Thanks for starting the new thread which makes good points. The information in my original post in this thread was news to me when I first read it as well.
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cracklover
Feb 28, 2005, 1:52 PM
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Kobaz, could you provide any documentation for your post? Everything in it: three non-locking biners being "too many", one locker being enough, and "outer biners" crushing "inner biners" in a toprope setup goes against everything I've ever heard or read. I believe you are mistaken. If you just got this from word of mouth, please do some reading, and consider reposting the correct info. Remember, this is the Beginner's Forum.
If you do not, I will provide documentation.
GO
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chriss
Feb 28, 2005, 6:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I noticed that pears, at the store, when opposed, rubbed their gates on each others spines...I'm assuming this is bad thing Yes this is a bad thing. It is more the locking mechanism that interferes. This would create a bending point when pressed against something (rock, other biner, etc). This is most common when using 2 symetrical locking biners opposite and opposed. I think that in this case, you are better served using 1 biner than 2. chriss I'm sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting that for toproping with symetrical locking biners, you are better off using one than two? If so, that is terrible advice. GO
Yes, I am saying that, if the 2 carabiners interfere with each other in anyway, you would be better served using 1 biner than 2.
Take 2 symeterical locking pear shaped carabiners. Set them, "opposite and opposed". Now press them together as the rope and sling would when loaded. If the bodies of the 2 biners are separated by a gap created by the locking mechanism, there will be a force created on the gate of each biner. This is bad.
You would not put a biner in a positon to bend over the rock like this. Why create this load with another biner? Please take a moment to look at this.
chris
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cracklover
Feb 28, 2005, 7:42 PM
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The force on those gates is minimal. If the rope were to pull the bottoms of the biners together, the tops of them would separate. It's not like the tops of the biners are welded together, they're just both through the same sling. Plus, the biners can shift side to side relative to each other a little bit.
In short, there is zero danger in that setup. In comparison, the danger of having one single locker that you cannot see from the ground which everything goes through, is absolutely unacceptable for a toproping setup.
Any and every book that discusses TR setup will say so. But I'm happy to provide documentation if you want.
GO
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