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akclimber
Mar 14, 2005, 12:47 AM
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Well here is the deal.
I got into aiding last summer. Pretty fun. I am the only one I know up here that really does any aiding. Problem is, I GO SO SLOW! It takes me an hour to go up a nice crack that is half a pitch.
One of the problems is that I am not a friend of the top 2 steps. How do I get on them without feeling like I am coming off?
I use a traditional daisy, do you use a fifi with it? I have been clipping with a biner.
Also using a chest harness, finding gear is relatively quick, so I don't think that is a problem.
Any info\tips\tricks appreciated.
Anything else?
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jimdavis
Mar 14, 2005, 12:51 AM
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Yeah, you want the Fifi on regular daisies. Top stepping is some hard stuff, just practice on easy lower angle stuff.
Jim
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hosh
Mar 14, 2005, 12:57 AM
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hey, come to Juneau so we can suck at aiding together!
hosh.
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akclimber
Mar 16, 2005, 7:23 AM
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Come on, some one knows something. I read through PTPP's posts, sounds like adjustable daiseys can make things easier. Is it true? Or is it more of preference? Did the Russian aid system ever catch on? I know there are some big-wallers here, cough up the tricks on efficiency please!
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pk
Mar 16, 2005, 7:54 AM
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In reply to: Come on, some one knows something. I read through PTPP's posts, sounds like adjustable daiseys can make things easier. Is it true? Or is it more of preference? Did the Russian aid system ever catch on? I know there are some big-wallers here, cough up the tricks on efficiency please!
I'm no big waller here but the few things that might help:
Most of the aid that I have done ( 100 pitches max ) the most important thing to move fast is to get use to your own system of moving fast. You are not going to climb like anyone else, the important part about moving fast is logging hours on the rock honing these systems.
When I started I would log hours at a time on a single pitch, lead it rap down jug and clean, rince and repeat. This was done solo as to not piss of my current climbing partners.
Take one step at a time! If you start out trying to lead, rap, jug, haul your going to find yourself in a confusing clusterfuck. start by honing your systems like said. Once you get that down, then go on to hauling penji's etc.
Basics first! If you are doing this alone like you said. Don't get over your head. Stick to C1 routes for your first 20 pitches or so, getting this all down takes time and there is no substitute for it.
P.K.
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akclimber
Mar 17, 2005, 5:54 AM
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In reply to: Once you get that down, then go on to hauling penji's etc.
Definition? :oops:
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tarzan420
Mar 17, 2005, 6:03 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Once you get that down, then go on to hauling penji's etc. Definition? :oops:
missing commas make life interesting... i'm not sure how one would haul a penji...
hauling - like hauling a haul bag full of junk
penji, ie. pendulum - swinging on the rope from one feature to another.
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kman
Mar 17, 2005, 7:11 AM
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It's really too bad that PTPP isn't around anymore. That guy is a wealth of information and has an awesome writing style. Doesn't really make sense as to why he was banned. Too many detractors I suppose.
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moof
Mar 17, 2005, 7:55 AM
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In reply to: Come on, some one knows something. I read through PTPP's posts, sounds like adjustable daiseys can make things easier. Is it true? Or is it more of preference? Did the Russian aid system ever catch on? I know there are some big-wallers here, cough up the tricks on efficiency please!
I lent my adjustable dasies to some friends, one new to aid, the other somewhat experienced. By the end of the day they drove into town to pick up a set themselves. They are luxury. The pain is extending them out each time, it's one of my time hogs (place gear, clip gear, snug daisy, sit, unclip lower piece, clip rope or backclean, extend daisy, clip to harness, climb rings, repeat...). If you don't extend it out, especially when you only extend it part way, you end up in some top step position screwing around with it trying to clip the next piece.
The russian aider options are still meager. Russ at Fish makes good trees, but no cuffs (much better than my version. It would be nice if he used beefier rings at the top of his aid trees, mine have ovalized some after levering the bejeesus out of them on overhung stuff. I made my own cuffs and I'm pretty damn happy with them, but it took three attempts before I got them dialed. As a system I think it is more natural to use, I confidently top-ring frequently on overhung stuff without feeling like I'm about to teeter off.
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akclimber
Mar 19, 2005, 5:59 AM
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Done. Thanks for all of your advice.
Adjustable diasys coming in the mail.
Also I bought some pitons. I chose knifeblades instead of Lost Arrows.
Next round of questions:
1. Is there any good reason to get some Lost Arrows or will the knifeblades cover most of thier range?
2. When slinging a hook, how long should the sling be dangling down? The loop ends about 3 inches from the holes on mine . Should it be shorter? Or will shortening just make them teeter totter more?
3. I tried to follow PTPP's leap frogging method for jugging, but did not understand it very well. Anyone have some sort of simplification or pictures that show it?
Thanks, guys, keep the info rollin please.
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akclimber
Mar 19, 2005, 6:02 AM
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Also, as far as top stepping goes, I did it on lower angled terrain like you said Jim. Was MUCH easier. If I could only do it on an overhang now....
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pk
Mar 19, 2005, 6:55 AM
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In reply to: 2. When slinging a hook, how long should the sling be dangling down? The loop ends about 3 inches from the holes on mine . Should it be shorter? Or will shortening just make them teeter totter more?
It willl, depend on the route! On some routes a one inche on it will be a make or break it for a short climber ( without a clip ) Spend some time with it. You will soon learn. It takes some time to learn you own systems
P.K.
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mingleefu
Mar 19, 2005, 8:26 AM
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1.) I'm not qualified to talk about the differences betweens arrows and kb's.
2.) about hooks: check out the Tradgirl.com FAQ on hooks. Recommends 2-3" loop. Shorter is generally better. As well, Climbing recently did a tech tip on hooking
3.) Leap frogging method.. There was recently a "tech tip" on this method of jugging. The article was written by some hoseur named Pete Zabrok who "coincidently" has the same name as PTPP. The following image is a link to the article.
http://climbing.com/techtips/226ttaid-2.gif
PS- I'm a fan of the tech tips (and R&I's tech sections also). no, I'm not getting paid to endorse them, though maybe I should be. I used to lurk on rec.climbing, and this sort of "non-endorsement" disclaimer was pretty much mandatory there. ah, nostalgia...
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akclimber
Mar 20, 2005, 7:57 AM
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Thanks. I used a similar method to leapfrogging today with the ascender connected directly to the harness (was lower angle terrain), it is much faster for sure. Will be sure to try out the frog in vertical terrain ASAP.
Still looking for more info on the pitons question involving Lost Arrow and Knifeblade's.
More questions:
1. My harness sucks for hanging in any real amount of time. Is this one pretty sweet? Or is there something better?
2. Do angle pitons really have a purpose on the new age climbers rack? Seem as though to me, most can be substituted for clean pro.
3. What does chongo's wall book cover? Is is mostly on sytems dealing with big walls? Or are there more simplistic aid techniqes in there too?
In case anyone is wondering: I am very ambitious and a fast learner. I also intend to keep posting questions. So feel free to post up with any\all info you can give me. I want to know the better way. 8^)
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smellyhippie
Mar 20, 2005, 3:37 PM
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Hey there,
Knifeblades do not cover the same range as Lost Arrows. Clean gear does not totally replace the need for angle pins, especially sawed-off angles. The shield is a great harness. If you're looking for "simpistic aid", Chongo's book is tmi.
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pt
Mar 20, 2005, 3:51 PM
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I don't think you will use the blades too much, unless you're doing first ascents of thin cracks. For existing aid routes you will probably use lost arrows and sawed off angles more. Just my experience.
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moof
Mar 20, 2005, 6:45 PM
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In reply to: More questions: 1. My harness sucks for hanging in any real amount of time. Is this one pretty sweet? Or is there something better?
Shield is way comfy. I'm fat, my partners always seem to be too slow, and the shield makes them 3-5 hours belays only mind bogglingly boring, but not painful.
Be careful on sizing, Yates harnesses run large. Mine was supposed to be 36-40" range, I'm a 38" fatass, and my shield is cinched within an inch of it's minimum. My yates astroman (thinner, but still pretty damn comfy) is a large and is supposed to be 33-37", and is right in it's mid range. Your mileage may vary.
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timmy_t
Mar 20, 2005, 7:07 PM
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I would hold off on pounding pins until you get a real good feel for when to place and how. Work your systems on clean aid and you will get a feel for what your comfort zone is and all that jazz. Seems like you are getting some good suggestions. Practice, practice, practice. You can only get faster! Another tidbit is for easy aid (C1 and 2) don't spend too much time making every piece way bomber.
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akclimber
Mar 20, 2005, 11:17 PM
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In reply to: I would hold off on pounding pins until you get a real good feel for when to place and how. Work your systems on clean aid and you will get a feel for what your comfort zone is and all that jazz. Seems like you are getting some good suggestions. Practice, practice, practice. You can only get faster! Another tidbit is for easy aid (C1 and 2) don't spend too much time making every piece way bomber.
Sorry. I just can't stop hammering. Too much fun.
As far as having no place for Knifeblades, there are a TON of thin cracks in the mountains right out of Anchorage, I plan on using some later in the week.
However, while on the piton subject, who has much experience here with RURP? Do you bounce test them or just go for it?
What about bashies? Bounce or no bounce?
Thanks.
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moof
Mar 21, 2005, 7:50 AM
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In reply to: 2.) about hooks: check out the Tradgirl.com FAQ on hooks. Recommends 2-3" loop. Shorter is generally better. As well, Climbing recently did a tech tip on hooking
I didn't like that one. It advocates watching the hook. Hooks are shy little critters with teeth. When scared by voyuers they violently bite back. Never watch the hook. Keep a hand over it to keep it from jumping off and snagging on your lip, or worse.
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coldclimb
Mar 21, 2005, 8:28 AM
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In reply to: However, while on the piton subject, who has much experience here with RURP? Do you bounce test them or just go for it? What about bashies? Bounce or no bounce? Thanks.
If you do start messing with Bashies Jon, invite me. I want (need) to get some experience with those this spring sometime. :D
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peroxide
Mar 21, 2005, 10:16 AM
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Dude...
find a chosspile quick.
As a guy who has come into the world of nailing recently, the best thing I have done is going out to a semi sheltered chosspile to visit during rainy days. I bring the pin rack etc. and have some fun.
NAILING
Pins pins pins. Bounce test, tie off, do stacks, see what you can get away with. RURPS are cool in hard rock but I find limestone just doesnt cut it. Normally a beak will work better.
Anlges. In virgin rock you occasianally will have the use of full length angle in flared cracks where an offset alien may not work. Normally a sawed off will work perfect in a boxed out pinscar (A1) where an offset alien or tricam may barely hold (C3). Otherwise it is a question of boldness.
MASHIES
This is where the nailing gets artistic. The only thing not to bounce test in my opinion are hooks (which just doesnt make sense). Otherwise a string of placements, not bounce tested, and you are rolling dice. Try to place and bounce the hell out of #2 heads and up.
#1 heads or the legendary #0s take a divine grace. In a perfect placement a #1 can be pretty tough (but you will be able to clean it with one or two jerks of the hammer) and #0s are like hanging by a piece of hardened gum.
Rock on
Andrzej
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glockaroo
Mar 21, 2005, 3:35 PM
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Definitely test RURPs and heads. In hard rock, RURPs are amazing.
Some cool tricks to try:
- stack a KB with a small stopper. Fills the gap nicely and you have a built-in tieoff for low leverage. Lighter weight & cheaper than stacking w/ LAs.
- stack a KB with a RURP. Same as above, just thinner. Don't forget the keeper sling.
- in chunky/junky slots, stack a KB with a head. Use this in pockets where there's not enough flat surface area for use w/ a stopper. The KB's surface can really moosh the head's metal into weirdly textured rock inside the slot where your chisel can't reach.
- stack 2 RURPs in a horizontal seam with a piece of 1/2" tieoff webbing through the center holes. Insert webbing before hammering the placement.
- did I mention stacking?
- once you get proficient at heading & nailing, consider equalizing 2 sketchy placements that alone would not hold but together might get you through. Equalize with tied runners where you can retie the knot so that the sling is exactly the right size: long enough to equalize, but as short as possible so as to maximize reach.
- when you land that rare solid piece of pro during a tough aid pitch, clip it to the rope with a locker or 2 biners reversed & opposed. You can't afford biner failure, and the most likely failure mode is from gate flutter or gate smack during the fall.
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mr8615
Mar 21, 2005, 4:27 PM
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I'm eating these tips up! Keep them coming! What do you all use with adjustable daisys to cushion the dreaded daisy fall? Screamers?
Mark
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akclimber
Mar 22, 2005, 6:26 AM
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Moof: I agree on the hooks, I don't like to watch em, and also put my hand on them. Also it is scary to look at what your standing on. :cry:
Coldclimb: Some coming in the mail, along with an RURP. I will start whacking soon as I get em. :twisted:
Peroxid and Glockaroo: You guys sure do enjoy stacking, will be sure to try some on my next venture.
It was mentioned equalizing two not so great placements, wouldn't it be faster to make it self equalizing with a sewn runner? Or am I missing something.... :lol:
I like the idea of using a locker\2 opposite and opposed.
mr8615: What is your question again? :shock:
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glockaroo
Mar 22, 2005, 4:00 PM
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In reply to: ...It was mentioned equalizing two not so great placements, wouldn't it be faster to make it self equalizing with a sewn runner?
I wasn't clear enough. What I mean is yes, equalize the 2 pieces w/ the "sliding X" but do it with a tied runner that you have retied to the shortest length that still equalizes the 2 pieces, thus maximizing your reach to the next placement. A short sewn runner might happen to be the right size, but that doesn't happen often.
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peroxide
Mar 22, 2005, 4:45 PM
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Great hints from glockaroo..several I need to try. I am totally a gumby at this but nonetheless and aggresively learning gumby. Since this is not about nailing some A5 horror show I will keep chatting.
STACKING
Stacking, in my opinion, comes most naturally to those that have a small pin rack...like when you are starting out (unless you are part of the VISA generation and bought two full sets of pins). I got pins in an old Ebay purchase and when I got into aid starting playing with them. I stacked out of necessity.
You have to work with what you have. In virgin chosspile this is less the case since the placements are not boxed out etc. Nonetheless, find a placement and then DONT choose the optimum pin.
Stacking works wonders on building the part of a climber's brain that needs to "engineer" placements. Think of the forces, the camming action, etc of the placements. I had a KB placement fail over and over when I bouncetested it until I pinned an angle between a nubbin on the wall and the blade and then flexed the KB against it to hold it in place. It looked like Chouinard Jenga and finally held. Otherwise I was looking at putting in a head or crumbly hook.
HEADS
I should stress the importance of having the right tools to place a head. At least a punch or you will discover quickly how head placements blow out (I am pretty deft with a hammer...but I still miss hit on occasion and this can lead to making a crap placement worse or accidentally chisseling a good placement...don't be that guy).
Fish's PDF on heading is at
http://www.fishproducts.com
It is a great tool for learning.
BEAKS in heads
The likelihood that you will need to place a head soon is pretty low. The likelihood you will come across a blown head on a route is pretty high. A great trick (and worth trying when you place heads while you practice) is to put a beak lightly tapped into the head itself. Cable blown? No problem...put a beak on it, step gingerly, and off you go.
Rock on
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peroxide
Mar 22, 2005, 5:12 PM
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SECOND STEPS
I think this is the best thing to learn low to the ground right when you are starting out or you will be lazy and scared from the get go.
PTPP has his way and everyone else seems to have their own.
So...my rules to getting higher in the aiders.
1) If it is vertical or overhanging I consider my 2nd steps as my top steps. Going higher, in my experience, only causes more pain and strain for little payback.
2) 2nd steps should feel money the rest of the time.
The trick is all about opposing forces and foot placement. To optimize this means having your rig customized.
On my adj. daisy I marked with pen the place to lock down for my 2nd steps, where when I step up, the daisy is perfectly tensioning me downwards toward the piece. This distance normally doesnt vary much for a variety of situations so marking it is perfect for me.
Also to add more stability I tripod my feet. This takes time getting used to. I have my feet in separate aiders that are at the same height and I push my toes into the wall and click my heels together like Dorothy and her red slippers. This tripod position, I find to be both stable and less taxing on the legs.
Last but not least...don't forget your free climbing techniques. Use features to help balance etc. Fiddling with gear normally requires one hand max.
This is one way of doing it. Other people have dedicated loops on their harness...I have even seen multilength fifis (which normally get tangled on everything).
Regards
Peroxide
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glockaroo
Mar 22, 2005, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: ...On my adj. daisy I marked with pen the place to lock down for my 2nd steps...
Great idea, peroxide. I will try that.
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mr8615
Mar 22, 2005, 7:15 PM
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Ok, perhaps I should've clarified. When using adjustable daisys, there are no pockets to clip into to lessen shock loading in the event of a daisy fall. I want to use adjustable daisys, those of you who do, do you use the ones with a built in screamer? Do you attach your own screamer (seems to defeat the purpose of adjustable daisys)? Do you just not worry about it? Lemme know what you think.
Mark
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sspssp
Mar 22, 2005, 8:45 PM
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I can't remember which brand is which. I used to use the thin spectra adjustables (Metolius?). However, a friend of mine took a static fall and broke one. So I switched to the heavy nylon one with the large cam buckle (Yates?).
The screamer looks really bulky to me and no I don't use it. I stress about taking a daisy fall, but I don't do anything to prevent it (on rare occasions I will clip the rope and unhook the daisy before moving up, but usually I don't do this--because I want to move faster).
A screamer like device is, I think, a good idea. But it would be nice if it was much smaller. Daisy falls are only 4'~6' long. A "screamer" that only extended a couple of inches would absorb a lot of impact compared to no screamer, and it could be made really small.
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pmyche
Mar 22, 2005, 9:29 PM
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Hey guys, I notice there's a reference to the "frog" method of jugging in this thread. I don't think this method is meant to be used when cleaning pitches, but when jugging free fixed lines. Seemed that might be confusing in the context of the thread.
***
Here's one: In instances where you need to keep yourself upright while you're not able to weight from the waist (on lead or cleaning, when slamming the fifi hook on something is too much trouble), you can use the inside corner of your elbow (rather than gripping with your hand) to give your arm a break.
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pmyche
Mar 22, 2005, 9:30 PM
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stuplicate
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moof
Mar 23, 2005, 9:02 AM
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In reply to: Hey guys, I notice there's a reference to the "frog" method of jugging in this thread. I don't think this method is meant to be used when cleaning pitches, but when jugging free fixed lines. Seemed that might be confusing in the context of the thread.
Yeah, frogging don't work for cleaning very well at all. I'm playing with a modification to the Mitchell rope walking method (uses a chest roller) that allows for cleaning on overhangs and moderately traversing stuff. The change is the addition of a fifi tethered to the same foot as the lower ascender to allow you to unweight the rope biner to unclip, but that automagically unhooks the fifi as you lower back out. Right now jugging and cleaning is almost as slow as leading for me, so I gots to try something...
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akclimber
Mar 23, 2005, 9:40 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Hey guys, I notice there's a reference to the "frog" method of jugging in this thread. I don't think this method is meant to be used when cleaning pitches, but when jugging free fixed lines. Seemed that might be confusing in the context of the thread. Yeah, frogging don't work for cleaning very well at all. I'm playing with a modification to the Mitchell rope walking method (uses a chest roller) that allows for cleaning on overhangs and moderately traversing stuff. The change is the addition of a fifi tethered to the same foot as the lower ascender to allow you to unweight the rope biner to unclip, but that automagically unhooks the fifi as you lower back out. Right now jugging and cleaning is almost as slow as leading for me, so I gots to try something...
Whoh whoh whoh. One step at a time here, I got lost after "modification to the....." You got pics or diagram of this?
By the way, I thought I saw a stumpy version of a screamer by Yates earlier today, was only 6 or 8 in long.
So there I was, hammers, pins and hand drill in the bag, had to take care of some errands, then a mini snow storm started up. And I pussed out. Ah well, another day.
What is the most common length for a 3/8 hand drilled bolt? 2-1/2 inches?
Also, I noticed that there are constant refernces to old 1/4 inch bolts and how they suck. BUT, how good are they when new? Coudn't you put in a few 1/4 inchers while aiding to make things go faster?
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peroxide
Mar 23, 2005, 11:57 AM
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FROG METHOD OF JUGGING
The only place you should use this is for free hanging ropes. It is good to learn if you are fixing lines on WFLT or some other overhanging route since it is quicker and less taxing on your arms.
However, once you have some wall to press your feet against, the standard Yosemite/long/middendorf method is preferred. Take short quick steps. Long steps will smoke you.
CLEANING
If the line is PERFECTLY vertical, the two jug method is quicker and more efficient. HOwever, since rarely is a line completely plumb, the jug and grigri method is what I think is the best.
ADJUSTABLE DAISIES
I really like adjustables. I learned on the standard but find that I climb quicker with adjustable at the cost of some security (they can and DO snap if you fall on them statically..this happened to PTPP when he was climbing Wyoming Sheep Ranch).
In my opinion the likelihood of having a daisy chain fall is really a function of pilot error. I unclip my lower daisy ASAP once I am on the next piece while clipping my rope into the lower piece. The slack and dynamic nature of the rope means a longer fall but WAY less likely of pulling out that lower piece if the top one blows.
With this method I avoid putting myself in a situation where if the top piece blows out and I start to fall I will fall on my daisy. Instead, fall on my climbing rope and if I really think the piece is junk I would have put a screamer on it.
The screamer on the daisy in theory makes sense for some A4 freakfest where that may be the only way of stopping the big plunge. but it also compromises how far you can cinch up on a daisy (which in turn can make 2nd stepping more difficult. I have not used one but I would like to hear what experience people have with them.
Also my note on marking your daisy is really a temporary measure since it will take about 5 trips to the crag before you have the distance dialed.
Rock on.
Andrzej
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peroxide
Mar 23, 2005, 2:41 PM
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MARK YOUR STEPS
If you have aid ladders that are not the color coded yates (I have Misty Mountain Ladders) I would recommend marking your steps with bright electrical tape.
I mark my top steps as one red stripe.
My seconds as two white stripes.
My thirds as three blue stripes.
Go USA.
However if you are weary of those top steps use green tape as in GO FOR IT. Or use reverse psychology like I do and put red tape down...as if the step is taunting you saying "Hey you...with all the shiny gear...you got no game going on up here..red means stop punk". Then show your aiders who is the boss and get on up there.
STYLING LIKE HAN SOLO
For me, since I am a gumby and have been trying this aid thing for a little more than a year, I needed to get practice quick without driving my girlfriend or belayer nuts by taking 7 hours to lead 35 feet of rock. So I taught myself how to aid solo with a grigri and clove hitch backup.
It takes a lot of homework, engineering, and dedication to work out a safe solo system. But once you do the legwork and can use a system that won't kill you it is a great tool for getting the kinks out.
I started on a bolt ladder (or easy sport climb) and got the movements down, experimented with different systems, and got good at clean aid (no hooks, pins etc on sport or trad routes...you can break holds with hooks!). Then I would rap the fixed line, clean the pitch, and then rap again so I could aid the moves the with a top rope grigri combo (always backed up).
If you can get through all the clusterf**ks, harness bruises, dropped gear, and smoked arms then you are probably ready to attempt a big wall.
SHOES
I personally think it is wise to always climb with comfy trad shoes with a shoe 3/4 support insert. It will make free to aid transitions easier and encourage to move quicker. Also it will give that extra bit of confidence and helps with the topstep tripod I described earlier.
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iamthewallress
Mar 23, 2005, 6:39 PM
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Peroxide...I like your motivational markings idea.
The thing that has helped me the most with the top step besides just staying motivated to move my ass up there in a speedier manner is working on my core strength. Last year I went a couple of times a week to an abs class at the gym and I found that I was much more stable and had much better endurance for getting higher in my steps with piles of gear for extended periods.
Other things that have helped with my high step stability/comfort...Learning the 'rest step' (standing on one straight leg with the other one bent back at the knee like a flamingo in reverse with your weight puched into that tensioned aider), learning how to 'pop up' from a squat into a position that's tensioned against my daisy, switching to adjustable daisies...although I think that a lot of the really fast people find that messing with these can slow you down.
Something that probably would help me go faster if I could do it more consistantly is spending less time staring at and futzing with my gear when I place it. If I was free climbing, I'd probably slam it in there and go. If I'm doing a C1 aid pitch, I'll probably still need to wiggle it and get to know it a bit before I get on it. It's fastest if you can just commit to it once you test it....or not test it at all if it looks textbook and there's good gear just below.
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pmyche
Mar 24, 2005, 7:17 AM
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Semi-drift:
"What is the most common length for a 3/8 hand drilled bolt? 2-1/2 inches?"
Also, I noticed that there are constant refernces to old 1/4 inch bolts and how they suck. BUT, how good are they when new? Coudn't you put in a few 1/4 inchers while aiding to make things go faster?"
Depends on the manufacturer, but Rawl (Powers) and Fixe both offer 3.5" and 2.25" lengths in 3/8" dia. If the rock is sound granite, the shorties are plenty bomber. The longer ones take more time to drill proportionate to their added shear strength.
Usually, old quarter inchers are the ones to watch. They are usually pretty good when new (depending on rock and placement), can even hold falls when not new. (We used to whip on these things all the time without a thought; they were standard issue in some free climbing areas.) They'll absolutely save time if you have many to drill. A popular ladder construction is several quarter inch buttonheads (Rawl/Powers Drive bolts x 1.25") without hangers ("rivets") in a row followed by a bolt with a hanger (hopefully a fatter one, often not, depending on route/area), repeating to natural pro/belay. These bolts appear to last up to 30 or more years in good rock and favorable weather/moisture/salt conditions like Yosemite, but even there some look way jingy after a scant couple of decades or less.
Fish has thoughtfully provided specs on lots of stuff in their Tech Weenie pages, including bolts:
http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/techweenie.html
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chaps
Apr 7, 2005, 4:26 PM
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This is just the thread I want to see!
I read a bunch of PTPP's posts and wondered what happened to him - he seemed to have good stuff to say. Specifically, he recommended the use of an adjustable fifi hook (made by Kong). It looks like a great way to rest and to second-step or top-step, but I can't find them anywhere! Does anybody know where I can order one? I've been searching the internet for weeks looking for the things...
Thanks for all the great tips! This is really useful stuff for somebody who's just getting into aid, like me.
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imnotclever
Apr 7, 2005, 4:43 PM
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Hey Chaps,
I've got an adjustable one that I let you play with if I can talk my wife to letting me go to BM for the gathering (if you're the same chaps). It's ok. I still have a regular one as well. If I were doing it again I'd get just the regular one and get the Yates adjustable daisies. Other people will have better opinions thought, I’m really just starting out as well.
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chaps
Apr 7, 2005, 5:00 PM
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Hey, imnotclever!
It's the same Chaps, indeed. I'm interested in trying out that fifi, and I'm planning on going to the Blue Mounds gathering. In thinking about this a little more, I suppose that a piece that you can actually clip is a little more secure than a fifi and I bet that adjustable daisies make such clipping about as convenient as a sliding fifi. Anyway - I'm interested in seeing the one you've got and playing around with it. Where'd you get it? I haven't found anybody in Minnesota (or anywhere else, for that matter) that has them.
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hosh
Apr 7, 2005, 6:00 PM
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This thread is super informative. I'm planning to do some aiding this weekend (if the weather holds) and I'm excited to try some of these tricks. Thanks for all the info that's been shared here!
Hosh.
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all_that_is_rock
Apr 7, 2005, 6:45 PM
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I am new to aid so imediatly disregard everything I say. I have found that I place almost my full set of ball nuts on alot of pitches. they are lighter than cams, cost less, and just as bomber when placed right. both trango and camp make these (I think they are made in the same place and just different names are put on them). some other company makes somthing simalar but with a wedge that slides instead of a ball, go with the balls they are much better............. as far as your harness goes: a friend of mine has a yates harness witch I have tried, and think it restrickts my motion to much on pitches that I make aid and free moves on. I have found the petzl calidris to be a good compromise of preformance and comfort. BD's new chaos is also suposed to be real comfy, but also preform well. I have an old chaos that I wouldnt ware for long routes, but the new one is supposed to have MUCH more padding...................as for my gumby tips on high steppin' I think it is easyer to high step when you have a biner cliped to a piece, instead of a fifi (grab the biner like a hand hold). this wont work for most hook placements because of the weight shift, but on vertical and slightly overhung rock it works almost like an undercling. using this method is the only way thus far I have felt safe standing on my top rung and f#cking with my next placement.
sincerly yours, some gumby ass wanabee aider
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all_that_is_rock
Apr 7, 2005, 6:48 PM
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I am new to aid so imediatly disregard everything I say. I have found that I place almost my full set of ball nuts on alot of pitches. they are lighter than cams, cost less, and just as bomber when placed right. both trango and camp make these (I think they are made in the same place and just different names are put on them). some other company makes somthing simalar but with a wedge that slides instead of a ball, go with the balls they are much better............. as far as your harness goes: a friend of mine has a yates harness witch I have tried, and think it restrickts my motion to much on pitches that I make aid and free moves on. I have found the petzl calidris to be a good compromise of preformance and comfort. BD's new chaos is also suposed to be real comfy, but also preform well. I have an old chaos that I wouldnt ware for long routes, but the new one is supposed to have MUCH more padding...................as for my gumby tips on high steppin' I think it is easyer to high step when you have a biner cliped to a piece, instead of a fifi (grab the biner like a hand hold). this wont work for most hook placements because of the weight shift, but on vertical and slightly overhung rock it works almost like an undercling. using this method is the only way thus far I have felt safe standing on my top rung and f#cking with my next placement.
sincerly yours, some gumby ass wanabee aider
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all_that_is_rock
Apr 7, 2005, 6:49 PM
Post #46 of 66
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I am new to aid so imediatly disregard everything I say. I have found that I place almost my full set of ball nuts on alot of pitches. they are lighter than cams, cost less, and just as bomber when placed right. both trango and camp make these (I think they are made in the same place and just different names are put on them). some other company makes somthing simalar but with a wedge that slides instead of a ball, go with the balls they are much better............. as far as your harness goes: a friend of mine has a yates harness witch I have tried, and think it restrickts my motion to much on pitches that I make aid and free moves on. I have found the petzl calidris to be a good compromise of preformance and comfort. BD's new chaos is also suposed to be real comfy, but also preform well. I have an old chaos that I wouldnt ware for long routes, but the new one is supposed to have MUCH more padding...................as for my gumby tips on high steppin' I think it is easyer to high step when you have a biner cliped to a piece, instead of a fifi (grab the biner like a hand hold). this wont work for most hook placements because of the weight shift, but on vertical and slightly overhung rock it works almost like an undercling. using this method is the only way thus far I have felt safe standing on my top rung and f#cking with my next placement.
sincerly yours, some gumby ass wanabee aider
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skinner
Apr 9, 2005, 7:26 AM
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In reply to: Other things that have helped with my high step stability/comfort...Learning the 'rest step' (standing on one straight leg with the other one bent back at the knee like a flamingo in reverse with your weight puched into that tensioned aider).
along with a FiFi seems to allow me to happily plod along forever because I am not sapping my strength trying to stabilize or hold myself while making (or figuring out) placements.
As far as stepping high in your aiders, I found having a light rack certainly makes this easier, carry a minimal amount, and tag up gear as you need it.
In reply to: [olive] "send up the ultra-light/ plutonium-powered bolt gun"[/olive] |
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karlbaba
Apr 9, 2005, 11:20 AM
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Many folks waste time aid climbing in the following ways
1. They pause and look for the next placement while low in their aiders. Always climb the aiders quickly until you are at least as high as you can get comfortably before you even think about the next placement (although being aware of the general nature of the crack ahead helps ration the gear)
2. They futz around trying to get the absolute best placement instead of placing what works and getting on with it. Place something without wasting time. If it's obviously good, jump on it. If it's questionable, test it. If it holds, don't delay.
3. Worrying and stressing make you unconsciously stall. Don't stall, just do it.
4. Some folks have inefficient systems and have to constantly figure and readjust everything. Get a groove and execute the system like clockwork.
4. Folks also putter and waste time at the belays. Learn a system and execute the system like clockwork.
I'm a big fan of Yates adjustables
Just some thoughts
karl
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skinner
Apr 9, 2005, 2:09 PM
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Little footnote here:
On the subject of Aiding/Bigwalls.. Check out karlbaba's Photo's
http://www.rockclimbing.com/users/list.php?UserID=karlbaba&mode=2
:shock:
a couple of those babies would sure look nice hanging on my wall!
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akclimber
Apr 12, 2005, 6:55 AM
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In reply to: Many folks waste time aid climbing in the following ways 1. They pause and look for the next placement while low in their aiders. Always climb the aiders quickly until you are at least as high as you can get comfortably before you even think about the next placement (although being aware of the general nature of the crack ahead helps ration the gear) 2. They futz around trying to get the absolute best placement instead of placing what works and getting on with it. Place something without wasting time. If it's obviously good, jump on it. If it's questionable, test it. If it holds, don't delay. 3. Worrying and stressing make you unconsciously stall. Don't stall, just do it. 4. Some folks have inefficient systems and have to constantly figure and readjust everything. Get a groove and execute the system like clockwork. 4. Folks also putter and waste time at the belays. Learn a system and execute the system like clockwork. I'm a big fan of Yates adjustables Just some thoughts karl
Thanks, good points everyone. I am working on becoming more efficient Karl. Anything else to add?
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crazyakclimber
Apr 17, 2005, 8:37 PM
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Hey dude! (HOSH) Lets go suck at aiding later today!
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karlbaba
Apr 18, 2005, 6:40 AM
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Some folks think that because they're aid climbing, that somehow they can't use the crack with their fingers. If jamming and fingerlocking can help you balance higher in your aiders, go for it.
Sometimes you get as high as you can easily get in your aiders, and you see a nice bomber constriction in the crack just out of easy reach. Find the right nut and draw, put it at the front of your rack for easy access, and use the crack with your fingers to get higher in your aiders enough to slot the nut above your head.
For more advanced folks, get more comfortable with cam hooks. Practice on top-rope sometime. Maybe try to do a pitch on top rope as fast as possible, using as many cam hooks as possible. It will help open your eyes as to what's possible. In fact, top-roping aid climbing to practice your speed and high stepping is highly recommended. Most people don't practice enough before heading up a wall and then they're too gripped to expand their skills beyond survival mode.
peace
karl
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akclimber
Apr 21, 2005, 5:21 AM
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Ok. So I went out again today, life was much easier with the adjustable aiders. I was on an overhanging route, and I was still slow. Took me 2 1/2 hours to do a little less than half a pitch.
One problem I kept having: I used 4 etriers, they get FUBAR fast. They twist all up. Is there any way to remedy this problem (Maybe make them stiff like a modified tri-cam)?
We spotted a fixed RURP at a REALLY chossy sport route the other day. I started to free the route at one point, but all sorts of shit was coming down on the belayer... I soloed up to the RURP and rallied the rock around it, but made it come out. What are the ethics on popular aid climbs and fixed gear?
Side note: I used the Metolius adjustables, tried using a seperate biner like they suggested at first. Too much stuff in one place, so I changed it to a quicklink, works like a champ.
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anjalidas
May 3, 2005, 9:39 PM
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the previous post(s) is right about the shorter slings on the hooks, take all the reach you can get.
As for the pins, if you're planning on climbing walls in the lower 48 it might be better to get some cam hooks(just the two regular sizes are crucial) and wait and see exactly which pins are required(and which your partner(s) already have) for the route(s) you intend to climb. You can borrow some arrows and angles from the old time climbers and go see how they work(pretty basic). With aliens, offset aliens and the occasional cam hook placement many of the moderate walls in Yosemite/Zion are regularly being climbed with maybe only a handful or two of pin placements. That said I would definitely recommend getting some different size birdbeaks and learning all the incredible placements that they are useful for.
If you invest in aliens(valley wall climbers routinely take six sets((three regular three offset))) you'll be loving yourself on the free climbs as the aid.
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abisharat
May 3, 2005, 10:12 PM
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In reply to: One problem I kept having: I used 4 etriers, they get FUBAR fast. They twist all up. Is there any way to remedy this problem (Maybe make them stiff like a modified tri-cam)? |
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ricardol
May 3, 2005, 11:46 PM
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6 sets of aliens?? -- abit overkill
.. 1 set of hybrids is enough -- if you have 2 you'll be happier.
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stymingersfink
May 4, 2005, 1:03 AM
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I'll vote for 5.
3 sets black - clear
2 sets hybrids
the hybrids are nearly always backcleaned. Nearly always. When I leave one behind, it's with a prayer that I don't have a two hybrid sequence farther up the line.
Sty
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epic_ed
May 4, 2005, 1:22 AM
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Hence, three set of Hybrids. It makes a man (or woman) very happy, I tell ya...
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avalon420
May 4, 2005, 2:23 AM
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MASTER THE TOP STEP, use a boswain chair if your harness is un comfy, get doubles(if u dont already) of your most used pieces (mid size cam hook, sky hook, other rout specific toys,etc) and keep them on the aiders always. And most importantly, as someone metioned earlier, do what works best for you( once u figure out what that is)
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glockaroo
May 4, 2005, 5:40 PM
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In reply to: ...One problem I kept having: I used 4 etriers, they get FUBAR fast. They twist all up...
I find that the ladder-style aiders don't twist up nearly as bad as the old school alternate-step aiders. Besides, I use just 2 ladder aiders until the angle gets past vertical. So most of the time there are not 4 aiders in action trying to get tangled.
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iamthewallress
May 4, 2005, 5:50 PM
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In reply to: I find that the ladder-style aiders don't twist up nearly as bad as the old school alternate-step aiders. Besides, I use just 2 ladder aiders until the angle gets past vertical. So most of the time there are not 4 aiders in action trying to get tangled.
Ditto.
Other tricks that use to keep the ladder CF down:
1. When it's a bit too tricky or unstable to use just two ladders easily, but the aid isn't too scarey, I clip a shoulder lenght runner, sometimes knotted in the middle, to each of my ladder biners. I don't need a it when I'm climbing low in my steps, but it helps me pop up high into my steps and/or stablize myself in the one ladder as I move the other up to the next piece.
2. Use an unattached floating ladder to turn either of your single ladders attached to your daisies into double ladders. Don't drop it. Bring a spare for when you do drop it. Ladders of the same height can be more stable, but a pocket aider is lighter/less bulk. Depends on what you need.
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graniteboy
May 4, 2005, 10:39 PM
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Although the last time I heard from AKclimber, he was talking smack to me about the Big Mountain (denali), I will be nice.
1) If you wanna learn how to aid climb, run away from home and live in the valley for a couple years.
2) Aiders, fifis, etc get Fubar when you're disorganized. And when it's windy (especially updrafts). The latter is gonna happen. But the former, you have control over. Work on a systematic way of doing things.
3) Log lots of miles. Experience, judgement and skill are WAY more important than fancy gear.
4) use the rock features to balance on hi steps.
5) get used to making a free move or three from your aiders, then returning to aid. You'd be surprised how often you need to do that in the real world.
6) Practice jugging and hauling, cause during your valley apprenticeship (aforementioned) , you're gonna do alot of it.
7) try not to talk smack about graniteboy. He's your elder, and your apparent mentor.
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climbhigher
May 6, 2005, 8:07 AM
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Cool....We need more BETA!!!!! LOL...hand feed it to me please.
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climbhigher
May 6, 2005, 8:36 AM
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Docking the haul bag seems to save me lots of time. Keeping myself hydrated over a period of time keeps me moving. Always bring a little bottle with you for every lead. Dont forget to sip water while belaying. At night before heading to bed dig out the next days supply of water while u have everything still out of the haulbag. Keeping one platypus or simialar device with tube to stick in your mouth while belaying will keep u hydrated. Don't swivle up into a little prune to the size of that bolt your hanging from. Dont chug your water. Slowly consume it over a long period of time. (Dont get really dehydrated and then chug all your water at once) You will just piss it out really quick...(yellow and stinky....Yucky).
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peroxide
May 6, 2005, 11:31 AM
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Things to keep the ship running smoothly:
1) Organize your rack
I use little labels to remind where everything goes. It sounds, and looks, dorky but works. Get used to cam hooking. It keeps your rack lighter and is faster.
2) Two aider method first
Two aiders only in the beginning or you are going to drive yourself mad. Also if you have adjustable daisies I recommend not having a fifi on your harness. This will do two things...it will remove a very annoying catch and hooking point and will also force you into the 2nd steps more quickly.
3) Wear comfortable free climbing shoes
I wear some roomy 5.10 spires or Ballet Golds...they rock.
4) Bounce a piece 3 times and get the hell onit.
Once you place and bounce totally commit. Get a rhythm.
5) Work your abs and back
Nothing will make you feel tougher than having tough abs and an even stronger lower back. Do dead lifts and weighted crunches.
6) Tripod and flag
When I am in my aiders I often pull a Dorothy and click my heels together to tripod and add more stability. Sometimes one foot in aiders, leg flagged out, will get you that added reach, It is strenous though.
7) Wallbags keep things tidy
Buy a bunch of Fish or Metolius stuff bags. Lots of color...lots of tags...keep things tidy.
Rock on
Andrzej
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peroxide
May 6, 2005, 11:33 AM
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I though of another.
Climb with cams, protect with nuts.
This makes your cleaner's life easier (a weighted brass nut can be hellish to remove). I will climb with cams and cam hooks and then backplace snug nuts. A good tug to keep it there but not weighted such that it becomes a big headache.
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