Forums: Climbing Disciplines: Trad Climbing:
How often do you fall on gear?
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Trad Climbing

Premier Sponsor:

 


Partner angry


Mar 26, 2005, 10:29 AM
Post #1 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 21, 2003
Posts: 8405

How often do you fall on gear?
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I just read the "What piece caught your fall" thread. It amazed me as to how many people recalled their last lead fall and it was 2 months ago.

Or people who've taken one lead fall on gear ever. Some of these people are experienced even (or talk the talk anyway).

I guess I don't get it. I fall nearly every time I rope up, and I only climb trad. I've fallen on so many cams and nuts, when placed properly, I don't see the difference between them and a bolt. I do occasionally use the T word, in my circles, that is grounds for cockpunching though. You pretty much have to fall.

I didn't think I was in the minority.

For the sake of the poll, if you fall once during a day that is enough. I realize many of you work routes and fall many many times. Post up and tell us about that. Yelling take counts as zero. If you yell take, submit contact info and the cockpunching gang will be dispatched to properly deal with you.


dutyje


Mar 26, 2005, 10:37 AM
Post #2 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 31, 2004
Posts: 727

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I am the ultimate wuss. I don't fall. I can't fall. It's related to two things, really -- I'm extremely afraid of heights and I've never, ever been seriously injured... Never broken a bone or sprained anything in my life.

My closest trad climbing friends are not afraid to fall on gear, and have been known to do so regularly (almost every time out).


jaybro


Mar 26, 2005, 11:36 AM
Post #3 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 2, 2005
Posts: 441

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

umm, multiple times every day I go out? freesolos excepted (so far)
If you're not falling, are you climbing?


mistertyler


Mar 26, 2005, 12:45 PM
Post #4 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 9, 2003
Posts: 197

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I'm still a newish trad leader and have only been climbing for a year and a half, but I've never fallen on my gear and will feel no embarrassment whatsoever if I never do. That said, I place my gear with a lot of thought and accept the fact that, at some point during my climbing career, I'll very likely be taking a ride on it.

Your poll and post give the impression (to me, anyway) that you are proud of the fact that you fall regularly on your gear. If so, why? Falling is a form of failure and, needless to say, many climbers -- experienced ones -- have been killed or severely injured after falling on their gear. (Zippering, cams ripping, ledges, head injuries, decking, etc.)

I'm going to have to call B.S. on the following statement in your post:

I've fallen on so many cams and nuts, when placed properly, I don't see the difference between them and a bolt.

What you're basically saying is:

1. My gear doesn't pull.
2. When placed properly (i.e., to not fail), they don't fail, and/because...
3. ...bolts don't fail or rarely fail.

#1 is irrelevant, #2 is a circular argument, and #3 is not very truthful and not very relevant to your argument. (Bolts do fail, and people get hurt all the time while sport climbing even when they don't...)

In the end, people climb for different reasons and have very different levels of risk acceptance. All of these reasons and risk levels are entirely valid.

I congratulate you on your apparant skill at placing pro, but I've seen some scary, not-so-skilled placements/anchors in the short time I've been climbing, and these people should *NOT* be falling on their gear.


meridith


Mar 26, 2005, 12:57 PM
Post #5 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 10, 2005
Posts: 2

fall on gear [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I think it's important to create a trust in your gear and/or belayer. This can be developed with practice falls. Throughout a climb, if it is challenging enough for you, there is bound to be holds without certainty.


extrasketch


Mar 26, 2005, 1:02 PM
Post #6 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 22

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

umm yeah right, dude. I wonder if you will be making the same post after climbing for a couple more years.

Yes falling may be a form of failure, but it also means your pushing yourself. I personally never used to fall on gear than I got tired of only climbing stuff I was 100% sure I could onsight, what is the fun in that. Plus if you never fall how do you if your placing good gear. j/k

your calling bs on that guy is a bit whack though. I don't see much of a difference between a good cam in a parrellel crack versus a bolt. Plus if you know your going to lanch into a crux section you can double up on pro and how many sport climbs let you do that.


golsen


Mar 26, 2005, 1:06 PM
Post #7 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 361

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Hi,
I don't exactly understand what point you are trying to make. Sounds like you go for it.....great. It is extremely dependant upon the rock type and the type of climbing you are doing. In my (nearly) 3 decades of climbing I have done bunches of 10-11 R routes with the occaisional X thrown in for excitement. Many of these were new routes, done gound up and not really knowing what the hell was up there. I can assure you and your buddies that falling on some of these routes is not at all desireable unless the goal is to get published (In Accidents in North America and possibly the obituaries).

However, in a place like Indian Creek, it is easy to go for it cuz you can have pro (frequently) in your face.

If you think that falling is a required part of climbing I would say that you should go climbing miles from any road in the wilderness and think very hard about the consequences.....


all_that_is_rock


Mar 26, 2005, 1:11 PM
Post #8 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 8, 2005
Posts: 291

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

mistertyler wrote:

"I'm going to have to call B.S. on the following statement in your post:

I've fallen on so many cams and nuts, when placed properly, I don't see the difference between them and a bolt.

What you're basically saying is:

1. My gear doesn't pull.
2. When placed properly (i.e., to not fail), they don't fail, and/because...
3. ...bolts don't fail or rarely fail."
I think fshizzles point was that bolts can fail and so can gear. if you think falling is a form of failure than you also must think tommy caldwell is a failure. after all he did probubly fall over 100+ times before sending flex luthar. buck up kid and get used to the new school because we are here to stay. good gear is fine to fall on and I dont understand why you would call BS on fshizzles post


all_that_is_rock


Mar 26, 2005, 1:15 PM
Post #9 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 8, 2005
Posts: 291

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

mistertyler wrote:

"I'm going to have to call B.S. on the following statement in your post:

I've fallen on so many cams and nuts, when placed properly, I don't see the difference between them and a bolt.

What you're basically saying is:

1. My gear doesn't pull.
2. When placed properly (i.e., to not fail), they don't fail, and/because...
3. ...bolts don't fail or rarely fail."
I think fshizzles point was that bolts can fail and so can gear. if you think falling is a form of failure than you also must think tommy caldwell is a failure. after all he did probubly fall over 100+ times before sending flex luthar. buck up kid and get used to the new school because we are here to stay. good gear is fine to fall on and I dont understand why you would call BS on fshizzles post


mistertyler


Mar 26, 2005, 1:29 PM
Post #10 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 9, 2003
Posts: 197

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
your calling bs on that guy is a bit whack though. I don't see much of a difference between a good cam in a parrellel crack versus a bolt. Plus if you know your going to lanch into a crux section you can double up on pro and how many sport climbs let you do that.

I called B.S. because the gist of his argument doesn't make any sense. Also, it's a discussion group (you're welcome to call B.S. on my arguments as well!), and his profile explicitly advocates healthy debate. :)

You may not see the difference between a good cam in a parallel crack and a bolt, but there is a difference, and it's a big one.


tallnik


Mar 26, 2005, 1:41 PM
Post #11 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 18, 2004
Posts: 595

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I've fallen once on gear that I placed. My partner made me do it, so I would trust my placements in the future. That said, it was only about a 10ft fall onto a number two camalot. That said, I've only been leading trad for one season. This is now my second year leading trad, and while I'm generally not to hesitant about taking a fall onto my gear, I'm still suspicious about the quality of my placements (sometimes). Before I feel confident really givin' er and falling on my gear, I'd like to feel more comfortable.

Cheers,
Nik


Partner angry


Mar 26, 2005, 1:47 PM
Post #12 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 21, 2003
Posts: 8405

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Due to my "failures" I have had far greater success than I could have had without such "failure"

I've placed plenty of shit gear, know what? I can tell that it is crap when I place it. I rarely fall on this stuff, when I have it has held. I have placed lots that will fail, I just know not to fall, or to get another in ASAP. I generally back off a crux if I can't pro it, or suck it up and fire with all barels. The balance of boldness and caution, it takes practice.

I'm not too proud to yell take if I feel that I am truly in danger (or tired, or having a high gravity day). The point of my post is not to tell you that my shit doesn't stink (actually it is oderless white pelets that are highly nutritious), but to gain some insight into the unknown. I truly do not understand why someone climbs and does not push him/herself, I don't understand fear in a safe situation - fear to me is relative to consequences, I don't understand why people place pro - expensive, certified, thouroghly inspected, in great places, and still fear it.


mistertyler


Mar 26, 2005, 2:05 PM
Post #13 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 9, 2003
Posts: 197

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
I think fshizzles point was that bolts can fail and so can gear. if you think falling is a form of failure than you also must think tommy caldwell is a failure.

I never said or implied that people who fall are failures. My argument is that falling is not a requirement for trad leading to be a fulfilling and rewarding experience. All people have different levels of risk and they're all valid. Read my post again.

In reply to:
buck up kid and get used to the new school because we are here to stay. good gear is fine to fall on and I dont understand why you would call BS on fshizzles post

I don't care about the "new school" or Tommy Caldwell. You're welcome to fall all you want on your gear; just don't tell me that, if I don't, I'm not kewl or tough or a "real" climber. (Because that would make me feel like I was back in high school, and I really hated high school.)


golsen


Mar 26, 2005, 2:23 PM
Post #14 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 361

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

fshizzle,
I think you partially answered your own question. Inexperienced trad lead climbers are probably still learning to trust their gear. Experienced Trad lead climbers know when it is safe to trust said gear (and fall potential) and get confidence from that. Having said that, one of the most experienced trad climbers I know (about 300 New routes in Utah, including all over the desert and about 25 ascents of the Diamond) placed two "bomber" friends in a granite parallel sided diagonal crack and went for it and had both fail. Luckily it was bruises only as he hit the ground.

Sometimes confidence is the only deciding factor in making it up a route and that includes confidence in the gear.

There is however something along these lines I truly do not understand, and that is the climber that says they climb 5.11d sport and 5.8 trad. To me, a climber that can do that is missing a couple things: one, the ability to place and trust their gear, and 2, the abiity to control their fear. I dont advocate soloing to everyone; however, it does round out ones abilities and allows them to climb safer in the mountains, thereby providing a more rounded perspective on climbing...


mistertyler


Mar 26, 2005, 2:56 PM
Post #15 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 9, 2003
Posts: 197

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Due to my "failures" I have had far greater success than I could have had without such "failure"

I've placed plenty of s--- gear, know what? I can tell that it is crap when I place it. I rarely fall on this stuff, when I have it has held. I have placed lots that will fail, I just know not to fall, or to get another in ASAP. I generally back off a crux if I can't pro it, or suck it up and fire with all barels. The balance of boldness and caution, it takes practice.

I'm not too proud to yell take if I feel that I am truly in danger (or tired, or having a high gravity day). The point of my post is not to tell you that my s--- doesn't stink (actually it is oderless white pelets that are highly nutritious), but to gain some insight into the unknown. I truly do not understand why someone climbs and does not push him/herself, I don't understand fear in a safe situation - fear to me is relative to consequences, I don't understand why people place pro - expensive, certified, thouroghly inspected, in great places, and still fear it.

I think your tolerance for risk is just higher than mine. I wish I could just accept sh1t gear and say "well...I'd better make dammmn sure I don't fall on that one..." and then pull the moves to safety, but I can't. I haven't been climbing all that long and I'm not very strong, so my margin for error is a lot less than yours is.

There are many times on routes when I sink something and think to myself "I could hang a Winnebago off that biatch!", and in those circumstances I'm willing to climb a lot harder over the pro. If not, though, I still prefer to be careful at this point because:

1. I'm still a newish trad leader. Maybe I've completely missed some important detail...? Is my pro going to zipper? If this piece blows will I shatter my pelvis on the ledge or tear one of my testicles off on that sharp flake sticking out below me?

2. The risk of the above -- in situations in which I lack significant confidence -- isn't worth it to me. I'd rather lead something a couple grades below my limit and instead push myself on bolts, bouldering, or in a gym (I know, I know...gym climbing sucks...).

It sounds like you get a lot of satisfaction from the fear that hard trad leads can give you. That's cool with me and I find your attitude inspiring. I love watching people like you climb. Dan Osman pushes his limits in that video he made of his 4 minute speed solo of Bear's Reach and was really inspiring to watch as well, but there's no way in hell I'll ever do something like that, because the level of risk involved is too high for my taste.

I get off on beautiful, aesthetic routes regardless of their grade. The Gunks is filled with beautiful 5.8's, 6's, 4's, and even 3's that 5.12 and above traddies will happily wait in line for to climb. I love the problem-solving and creativity involved when placing pro, and being able to stop mid-pitch to turn around, savor the views beyond and below, and reflect with serene satisfaction on what it is I'm doing.


golsen


Mar 26, 2005, 3:09 PM
Post #16 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 28, 2005
Posts: 361

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Mr Tyler,
that is a very cool reason to climb and the reason I got started many years ago. There are many different motivations and many different climbers. Some do have a higher tolerance in terms of what they risk and when and how much they fall. In the old days there was a brilliant guy in Boulder. If he fell or weighted his rope, he considered it a failure and didnt go back to the route. Wish I could remember his name and he did in fact push standards there in the 70's. Guys who are falling all of the time are probably pushing their limits but personally, I savor waiting on some routes to a time when I know I may have a good chance at a successful on-site. That remains the best style and brings a lot of satisfaction. Working a route also brings great satisfaction

These poll things are hard because as I said earlier, there are so many variables that if you climb on say Trad Quartzite in Big CottonWood Utah you will have a different outlook than a climber on trad cracks (Indian Creek).....


mistertyler


Mar 26, 2005, 3:32 PM
Post #17 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 9, 2003
Posts: 197

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Mr Tyler,
I savor waiting on some routes to a time when I know I may have a good chance at a successful on-site.

For classic routes I really like that approach, too. Part of me is really disappointed in the fact that I seconded High Exposure shortly after starting to climb. An on-site lead would have been so much more rewarding, I think. Of course, I'm really bad at remembering moves and details of the routes I do, so for me everything is like an on-site....


rockrat_co


Mar 26, 2005, 3:46 PM
Post #18 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 25, 2004
Posts: 194

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

As Much as is needed!


andrewph


Mar 26, 2005, 4:06 PM
Post #19 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 105

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I have fallen a couple of times on my gear, though the majority of the time I'm leading I climb stuff I am close to 100% I can lead without falling.
The main reason for this is the quarry where I climb most is very ledgy and in alot of places you have to run it out a bit, so there is often the fear of hitting that last ledge.

The climbs I have fallen on have been ones that I know the fall will be clean, like on a real smoth flat slab or where that last ledge is far enough away that I wont hit it. In those cases I have felt totally fine with falling and on some even expected it.

There are also climbs that I want to do and have yet not done because I know there is no gear on them and a fall could be real bad.

Thats my 2 cents. for what its worth though I'm pretty new to climbing. Having lead 40ish climbs. (I counted today)

Andy


petsfed


Mar 26, 2005, 4:25 PM
Post #20 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 24, 2002
Posts: 8599

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I don't fall often, but that's because any more I don't get out often enough to justify spending a half a day working a climb. I like succeeding on a climb enough that unless I can do it straight away, I don't want to lose a day off trying to get there. So maybe 1 out 5 days climbing.

I remember when I'd fall every day, back when I really sucked. Now I suck less.


tanner


Mar 26, 2005, 5:01 PM
Post #21 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 27, 2002
Posts: 491

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I occasional will fall on my gear but I don't like to. I lead just about at my TR limit within a letter or 2 so falling happens. But If the route is at my leading limit than I make sure its safe to fall. Most of my lead routes however, I consiter myself as soloing and the gear is there just in case.

The leader must not fall: on Ice, alpine routes, poor rock, slabs or 5.8's


vegastradguy


Mar 26, 2005, 6:20 PM
Post #22 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

the leader doesnt fall at or below 5.9ish....at least on multipitch in Red Rocks.

after 5.9, generally things become pretty steep and falls get alot cleaner.

i've fallen about 6 or so times this season, all on routes that were 5.10 and up. Before this season (which was my first climbing 5.10 somewhat consistently), I had fallen once on trad lead (a Factor 1.7ish at that!), and that was enough for me.

Do i have a problem falling on my gear? Nope. Do i often enough to answer yes to your poll? Nope, not yet. Next year, maybe, but for now, I still climb enough at the lower grades that ledges and shit are an issue.


Partner gunksgoer


Mar 26, 2005, 8:20 PM
Post #23 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 1290

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Im in the "leader almost never falls" catergory.

i lead moderate trad routes and i can climb out of just about everything i encounter, but very ocasionally something isnt right and i end up taking a little whip. ive only taken in a handfull of falls on gear.

im not scared of the actuall fall, i fall on sport routes and leading in the gym all the time. i simply dont think falling on gear is desireable if it isnt necesary. my placements are all good and if its a nice big sure to be bomber piece i wont be scared to fall on it, i just dont like to.

with bolts on the other hand, assuming they arnt some anchient 1/4 inchers, i wont hesitate to log in some major frequent fly miles


azrockclimber


Mar 28, 2005, 5:39 AM
Post #24 of 79 (10041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 666

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

almost never (4 years 5 falls and only two real 15-30' falls)....A fall on a trad climb is a bit of an event...usually because..for me...it will be long and dangerous.. and falling is a result of a mistake and I try to make as few of those as possible on all climbs especially trad.


jt512


Mar 28, 2005, 9:33 AM
Post #25 of 79 (9878 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Falling is a form of failure...

Falling is only a form of failure in your mind. If your only goal is to always climb without falling, then falling is failure by definition. What if your goal is to overcome irrational fears about falling on your gear; then climbing until exhaustion and falling would be a success, by definition. Back to your goal: one problem with such a goal is that it is self-limiting. To meet it you must always climb routes that you are confident you won't fall on in the first place. Since you essentially know the outcome ahead of time, your opportunities to learn something new on the climb are severely restricted. If you don't see this, consider these two things: (1) you don't really know what your limits are because you haven't experienced them, and (2) you don't trust your gear, in spite of having climbed for a year and a half because you haven't ever had to rely on your gear.

In reply to:
If you and, needless to say, many climbers -- experienced ones -- have been killed or severely injured after falling on their gear.

Sure, but why the fear orientation? Climbers die, but for every one who has died tens of thousands haven't. Do you avoid flying and driving, too?

In reply to:
(Zippering, cams ripping, ledges, head injuries, decking, etc.)


All of the above can be avoided: Zippering is caused by failure of the bottom piece of gear to hold an upward pull (place a multidirectional first piece). Cams don't just randomly "rip"; learn to place cams properly. Protect above ledges (duh!). Many climbers have a rule about always having two pieces between them and death. Not a bad rule, IMO. Head injuries are caused by stepping in front of your rope and getting flipped over in a fall (don't step in front of rope).

In reply to:
I'm going to have to call B.S. on the following statement in your post:

I've fallen on so many cams and nuts, when placed properly, I don't see the difference between them and a bolt.

What you're basically saying is:

1. My gear doesn't pull.
2. When placed properly (i.e., to not fail), they don't fail, and/because...
3. ...bolts don't fail or rarely fail.

#1 is irrelevant, #2 is a circular argument,

#2 isn't circular; it's the definition of properly placed gear. Gear doesn't randomly fail. Bad placements fail. Learn to place well and to distinguish a good placement from a bad one. Back up critical placements. Go for it.

In reply to:
(Bolts do fail, and people get hurt all the time while sport climbing even when they don't...)

Failure of modern bolts is so rare that you can practically ignore the possibility. The most common reasons that people get hurt sport climbing are not knowing how to fall properly and climbing with partners who do not know how to dynamically belay. How often do you hear about a high-end sport climber getting hurt sport climbing? Almost never, and climbers at that level are taking scores of falls week in and week out.

-Jay


jt512


Mar 28, 2005, 9:34 AM
Post #26 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Falling is a form of failure...

Falling is only a form of failure in your mind. If your only goal is to always climb without falling, then falling is failure by definition. What if your goal is to overcome irrational fears about falling on your gear; then climbing until exhaustion and falling would be a success, by definition. Back to your goal: one problem with such a goal is that it is self-limiting. To meet it you must always climb routes that you are confident you won't fall on in the first place. Since you essentially know the outcome ahead of time, your opportunities to learn something new on the climb are severely restricted. If you don't see this, consider these two things: (1) you don't really know what your limits are because you haven't experienced them, and (2) you don't trust your gear, in spite of having climbed for a year and a half because you haven't ever had to rely on your gear.

In reply to:
If you and, needless to say, many climbers -- experienced ones -- have been killed or severely injured after falling on their gear.

Sure, but why the fear orientation? Climbers die, but for every one who has died tens of thousands haven't. Do you avoid flying and driving, too?

In reply to:
(Zippering, cams ripping, ledges, head injuries, decking, etc.)


All of the above can be avoided: Zippering is caused by failure of the bottom piece of gear to hold an upward pull (place a multidirectional first piece). Cams don't just randomly "rip"; learn to place cams properly. Protect above ledges (duh!). Many climbers have a rule about always having two pieces between them and death. Not a bad rule, IMO. Head injuries are caused by stepping in front of your rope and getting flipped over in a fall (don't step in front of rope).

In reply to:
I'm going to have to call B.S. on the following statement in your post:

I've fallen on so many cams and nuts, when placed properly, I don't see the difference between them and a bolt.

What you're basically saying is:

1. My gear doesn't pull.
2. When placed properly (i.e., to not fail), they don't fail, and/because...
3. ...bolts don't fail or rarely fail.

#1 is irrelevant, #2 is a circular argument,

#2 isn't circular; it's the definition of properly placed gear. Gear doesn't randomly fail. Bad placements fail. Learn to place well and to distinguish a good placement from a bad one. Back up critical placements. Go for it.

In reply to:
(Bolts do fail, and people get hurt all the time while sport climbing even when they don't...)

Failure of modern bolts is so rare that you can practically ignore the possibility. The most common reasons that people get hurt sport climbing are not knowing how to fall properly and climbing with partners who do not know how to dynamically belay. How often do you hear about a high-end sport climber getting hurt sport climbing? Almost never, and climbers at that level are taking scores of falls week in and week out.

-Jay


dirtineye


Mar 28, 2005, 9:55 AM
Post #27 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Falling is a form of failure...

Falling is only a form of failure in your mind. If your only goal is to always climb without falling, then falling is failure by definition. What if your goal is to overcome irrational fears about falling on your gear; then climbing until exhaustion and falling would be a success, by definition. Back to your goal: one problem with such a goal is that it is self-limiting. To meet it you must always climb routes that you are confident you won't fall on in the first place. Since you essentially know the outcome ahead of time, your opportunities to learn something new on the climb are severely restricted. If you don't see this, consider these two things: (1) you don't really know what your limits are because you haven't experienced them, and (2) you don't trust your gear, in spite of having climbed for a year and a half because you haven't ever had to rely on your gear.

Unreasonable Fear of Falling is an even bigger failure, and completely mental, as well as curable.

In reply to:
In reply to:
(Zippering, cams ripping, ledges, head injuries, decking, etc.)


All of the above can be avoided: Zippering is caused by failure of the bottom piece of gear to hold an upward pull (place a multidirectional first piece). Cams don't just randomly "rip"; learn to place cams properly. Protect above ledges (duh!). Many climbers have a rule about always having two pieces between them and death. Not a bad rule, IMO. Head injuries are caused by stepping in front of your rope and getting flipped over in a fall (don't step in front of rope).

Outard pull is also a big factor in zippering. Tensioned opposition cures zippering. Two pieces between you and death are sometimes not enough, as you can read in acidents and injuries.

About that properly placed gear does not fail business, well, climb on enough unclimbed rock adn you'll get a few suprises. BUT, sewing it up tends to take care of the occasional funky stuff.

Never pass up a bomber placement-- you might not get another.


keinangst


Mar 28, 2005, 10:21 AM
Post #28 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 31, 2003
Posts: 1408

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I've been tradding (weekend warrior) for about a year, and just took my first real falls the other day.

I was sewing up this nice, just-less-than-vertical finger/off-finger crack. I was 3 pieces and 15'-20' off the deck. The crack took solid, medium to large nuts in confident placement.

I fell on the same nut three times, then continued on with no more falls.

It was refreshing, but I now have a new reason to not want to fall on trad: I want my damn gear back from the nut-eating cracks.


skateman


Mar 28, 2005, 10:42 AM
Post #29 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 186

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

If I could rate posts today, I would give the gold cup to Golsen. From my perspective he seems to be making a lot of sense. Let's face it, everyone climbs for thier own reasons.
A big reason for me is so that I may live to climb another day! Being new to trad leading, almost every lead I do is an onsight. My goal is climb the route without falling. In reality this is not always the case.

However, I climb with my son and other people that I love dearly. I have no desire to be the SAR posterboy by falling on gear with reckless abandon. A bad fall for me (or any other leader) on a long trad route will also put the rest of the party at risk. Self rescue is not a trivial procedure.

That's my two cents worth, your mileage may vary.

S-man


dirtineye


Mar 28, 2005, 10:56 AM
Post #30 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
I've been tradding (weekend warrior) for about a year, and just took my first real falls the other day.

I was sewing up this nice, just-less-than-vertical finger/off-finger crack. I was 3 pieces and 15'-20' off the deck. The crack took solid, medium to large nuts in confident placement.

I fell on the same nut three times, then continued on with no more falls.

It was refreshing, but I now have a new reason to not want to fall on trad: I want my damn gear back from the nut-eating cracks.

So where did you leave this booty, I mean, gear?


mistertyler


Mar 28, 2005, 11:08 AM
Post #31 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 9, 2003
Posts: 197

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Good post, Jay. I guess I should clarify my "failure" statement.

In the original post, fshizzle's comment that "you pretty much have to fall" implies (or implied to me, anyway) that people should be leading on gear at their limit and falling frequently. The overall tone of the post came off as mild chest-thumping (see the 4th option in the poll) and made it sound like he was proud of that fact that he falls all the time on gear. I made the "failure" comment because I don't understand why anyone would brag out falling; blowing an onsite, to me, is a kind of failure. On the other hand, falling as a way to push one limits isn't failure at all, although doing so frequently over gear can be, I'll argue, somewhat risky.

The statement about having to fall irked me because I think that philosophy should only be followed by more experienced leaders, a group of climbers who are not, I'd argue, the majority on this site.

At some point in my career I hope I'm able to lead 5.11 or 5.12 on gear. At that level, bone-crushing ledges are dealt with less frequently, and by then I expect to be very adept at judging the quality of my placements and evaluating the other technical aspects of the route I'm on. As I progress I'm certain that my aversion to falling will decrease somewhat (and fully expect to take my share of rides throughout my career), but I do doubt that my level of risk acceptance will ever allow me to take leader falls on a daily basis. To each his or her own, though.


wa_hoo


Mar 28, 2005, 11:26 AM
Post #32 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 25, 2004
Posts: 203

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I wonder if there isn't some way to get this thread cross-referenced in the beginner section. I found it because it was on the front page, but found it very insightful.


keinangst


Mar 28, 2005, 11:34 AM
Post #33 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 31, 2003
Posts: 1408

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
So where did you leave this booty, I mean, gear?

Knife Crack at Griffin, about 15' up. #7 ABC Huevo (cheapo BD stopper), and it's $5 I won't miss. It's bomber, so be sure to clip it on the way up :D


brutusofwyde


Mar 29, 2005, 3:03 PM
Post #34 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I try to never fall, be it on gear or on bolts.

Do what you all want.

I'll climb the way I want.

There are many modes of "failure". Some are more lethal than others.

Brutus of Wuss


keithlester
Deleted

Mar 30, 2005, 7:26 AM
Post #35 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered:
Posts:

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:

I get off on beautiful, aesthetic routes regardless of their grade. The Gunks is filled with beautiful 5.8's, 6's, 4's, and even 3's that 5.12 and above traddies will happily wait in line for to climb. I love the problem-solving and creativity involved when placing pro, and being able to stop mid-pitch to turn around, savor the views beyond and below, and reflect with serene satisfaction on what it is I'm doing.

Hear, hear boss, my attitude exactly. Pushing numbers and falling on pro every day you go out is a form of eletism. "Iwanna be the best, better than the other guy etc etc"

Not the reason I go climbing at all, and I've been mountain soloing for longer than I've been trad climbing. For me its all about being up amongst the mountains, miles from the nearest noise, fitting in with my environment, doing no damage, coming home uplifted. Numbers dont do that for me.


jt512


Mar 30, 2005, 8:56 AM
Post #36 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Pushing numbers and falling on pro every day you go out is a form of eletism. "Iwanna be the best, better than the other guy etc etc"

Hilarious. What ignorance.

-Jay


healyje


Mar 30, 2005, 9:04 AM
Post #37 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

There is another aspect of this discussion and that is that if you aren't falling on your pro while you are learning then to some degree you aren't learning. Your skills with protecting new and marginal placements will not evolve with confidence that only experience can provide.

This attitude is certainly a post-sport and post-gym phenom as before that you had no choice - there only was trad. It's strange in some ways that there are people now who only risk indoors or on bolts (and the example given of a bad cam could just as easily be applied to a bad bolt) - to each his own, but this whole business of leading trad way below your abilities seems damn peculiar to me.

You are basically saying that your faith in yourself goes down as the amount of self-responsibility you take on (placing your own pro) goes up; and the reverse, that the less responsibility you take on (using bolts placed by others) the more faith you have in yourself - as I said, damn peculiar...


yanqui


Apr 1, 2005, 7:38 AM
Post #38 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 24, 2004
Posts: 1559

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
I truly do not understand why someone climbs and does not push him/herself, I don't understand fear in a safe situation - fear to me is relative to consequences, I don't understand why people place pro - expensive, certified, thouroghly inspected, in great places, and still fear it.

I was able to become a pretty solid 5.10 trad leader basically without ever falling on lead. Sure, I hung a time or two when I got in trouble and whipped a couple of times when I made mistakes, but in the four or so years it took me to get solid at 5.10 I really only fell or hung a handfull of times on lead.

The thing is, for me, I could reach THAT level without loss of control. What was so difficult for me, to reach 5.11, was that it required giving up the natural desire for complete control. I remember an early attempt going first on a short 5.11 crack (Resurrection, or something like that, in Little Cottonwood's Green A Gully). And what stopped me cold was that I couldn't find a jam I could trust for more than a few seconds. My friend Mark, who was a much stronger crack climber, told me that, in order to do this climb, I would have to give up the desire to be secure at every minute and move up consecutively on jams like that: jams which might hold for a only a few seconds. The hard thing, and something that still can thwart me when maxing out, is the difficulty I have giving up my desire to maintain complete control.

This is not so much fear, although fear can be involved. I think many climbers get into the sport, because, to a certain extent, they are control freaks. They like the fact that they can exercise control in a situation that the average Joe would consider too risky and out of control. I think what you're calling 'fear' isn't so much fear in the traditional sense, that is: not 'fear' that rope will break, or 'fear' that the gear will pull, or 'fear' that the bolt will, etc., but rather a sort of natural resistance to giving up control.

So what if some guy's limit comes at 5.8 because he doesn't want to give up the control he feels when he climbs 5.8? Even brave guys who fall, approach their own asymptotic bound soon enough. Falling, that is: the willingness to give up complete control, is certainly a big part of the new explosion of difficulty in our sport. But that doesn't mean someone can't enjoy a satsfying lifestyle as a climber and reach a certain level of competence without hardly ever falling on lead at all.


esallen


Jun 12, 2005, 6:24 PM
Post #39 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 10, 2004
Posts: 304

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Took a 20-footer onto a 00 metolius TCU yesterday. Though a little bent now, the thing held and kept me from decking.

Eric


sbaclimber


Jun 12, 2005, 7:46 PM
Post #40 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 3118

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
You are basically saying that your faith in yourself goes down as the amount of self-responsibility you take on (placing your own pro) goes up; and the reverse, that the less responsibility you take on (using bolts placed by others) the more faith you have in yourself - as I said, damn peculiar...
um, no... (see below)

In reply to:
There is however something along these lines I truly do not understand, and that is the climber that says they climb 5.11d sport and 5.8 trad. To me, a climber that can do that is missing a couple things: one, the ability to place and trust their gear, and 2, the abiity to control their fear.

Being one of those climbers, I'll bite.

As far as things that are missing goes:
I disagree with #1. I know how to place my gear properly, and I will trust a 'good' placement just as much as a good bolt (marginal placements and manky bolts are a different matter).

#2, You might have a point, when you talk about controlling one's fear, I struggle to control mine quite often, but generally not based on whether I am climbing trad or sport though.

You need a #3: What for me makes the difference between my sport and trad climbing abilities is my endurance (as in, I have none)! 1st of all, over the past 4 years, I have almost never been on anything higher than 30m. So, when I say I am a 5.10 sport climber, I mean I am a 5.10 sport climber for 30m. After that I would probably run out of strength and loose my ability to flash a 5.10. For the same reason, I say I am a 5.9 trad climber. I can hang around on a 5.8 forever, setting gear placements. On a 5.9, I can hang around for about 30m, after that... no more strength.

So, in other words, it doesn't necessarily have to to with fear or the ability to set gear. It could just be a matter of endurance.

and, yes, I do suck and need some serious training..... :lol: 8^)


kachoong


Jun 12, 2005, 8:33 PM
Post #41 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 15304

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
There is another aspect of this discussion and that is that if you aren't falling on your pro while you are learning then to some degree you aren't learning. Your skills with protecting new and marginal placements will not evolve with confidence that only experience can provide.
In a way I kind of agree, however it's a bit of a catch 22. You'll certainly learn about your marginal placements if you fall on them.... you also might get seriously injured if you learn that your marginal placement wasn't good enough. Falling on well-placed gear is great for your learning curve, but how do you know it's bomber if you've never tested it? With experience, a good eye, instinct and enough safe falls on gear you'll become increasingly better at judging a well-placed piece. Sometimes it's pure luck that would have a piece catch your fall. We obviously do what we can at the time to make sure it's as good as it can get. But some people I think need to know exactly when to move on above it. If you know it's suspect, why move on? I know when I ice climb I NEVER move off an ill-placed axe, because if the second tool placement is dodgy too, what's to stop me from catapulting if something unexpected happens? I think aid climbing is good to learn trad placements.... watching a stopper jolt/settle two or three times down a thin crack before it finally rests somewhere 'better' is great for your knowledge on what looks like a good placement. Sure it's only body weight, but it's as close as you'll get to seeing what happens to gear during a fall.

I also agree with what
In reply to:
Falling is only a form of failure in your mind. If your only goal is to always climb without falling, then falling is failure by definition. What if your goal is to overcome irrational fears about falling on your gear; then climbing until exhaustion and falling would be a success, by definition.
Falling should never be deemed failure especially if you're pushing at your climbing limit. For me I climb very close to my limit on trad, but never push it too much, until I know I'm ready to move up a grade. Right now I'm trying to climb everything at our local crag that I can, up to and on my limit and then I'll know I'm ready for the next grade. Most of the time my climbs are onsights unless I've seconded it before, however I also know (from enough falling experience) that if I fall on my gear it will hold, since I will spend enough time placing it, or double/triple back it up if it looks at all suspect. If it's suspect and I cannot back it up, I'll not place it and back off or climb on to somewhere that has better gear.... I figure there's no point wasting energy placing shit gear if you can climb higher, in a relaxed state, and get in a bomber piece or even to a rest.

Having said this I still fall on gear, but probably do it only every 20 climbs or so.


renohandjams


Jun 27, 2005, 12:42 PM
Post #42 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I try to never fall on my gear. I will rest, or do a mini fall for a break, but I never fall when I'm high enough to place again. Sport is different, but Trad is more just for climbing, and I don't want to try and keep track of my ropes fall ratings, lets see is this factor 1 fall number 10 or twelve kind of thing

You might think it's pussy, but I can still push myself without taking huge falls while doing Trad.

-Kenny
------------------------
TradRack.com SuperStore
Free Email Accounts, yourname@TradRack.com, only 100 to give
Click here to see if your name is available


Partner coldclimb


Jun 27, 2005, 12:56 PM
Post #43 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I personally have never taken a fall on gear. I don't like to push myself to climb past my limit and reach higher and higher grades. Get this: I just got back from Thailand (a major SPORT climbing destination), where I fell five or six times, mostly on the same route. I just don't have the common climber's redpoint mentality. The climbs I enjoy most are really long moderate trad routes, where I can just plug in pro and move up the rock all day.

OTHER people have taken lead falls on gear I placed, but I never have. :?


caughtinside


Jun 27, 2005, 1:20 PM
Post #44 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Coldclimb: Do what you like, but with that mentality you are limiting the number (and many would say quality) of climbs that are available to you.

That's always been a motivator for me, the harder I climb the more options I have. I still like climbing stuff well below my max.

I don't fall on gear very often. But, I did fall on the same bolt 6 times on Saturday. :x No RP for me! :lol:


kinosoo


Jun 28, 2005, 6:16 AM
Post #45 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 117

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

i haven't fallen yet but I'm new at this it my first year climbing trad. next time i have a rout with a nice landing though I'm going to jump.. maby...


bill413


Jun 28, 2005, 6:46 AM
Post #46 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

No appropriate category for my vote -
On trad, I probably fall 1ce per season.
On sport - most of the times I go out.
On mixed - it depends.


atg200


Jun 28, 2005, 8:06 AM
Post #47 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 4317

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

until this year i fell very rarely. i would really only do routes i knew for sure i could get up without falling.

i don't know what changed in my mind, but i started pushing much harder this year. i've been climbing until i fall 90% of the time(i only took once when i shouldn't have, and i felt like a tool after doing that). my lead ability went almost instantly from being solid on any 5.7 and a bit scared on 5.8s to leading 5.9 fairly consistently and working in to easy 5.10s. if i could travel less for work and climb more consistently i am sure i would be solid leading 5.10 before too long.

i generally climb harder on trad routes than i do on sport routes, but mostly because i am better at crack and slab climbing than i am on high angle face climbing. it does not matter to me if my last piece is a bolt or a stopper - i am happy with either.

i enjoyed cruising on long easy trad routes and aid climbing for the last 10 years, but my progress this year has been a joy and a feeling completely different than years past.


choueiri


Jun 28, 2005, 8:51 AM
Post #48 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 14, 2003
Posts: 272

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I fall on my gear about 30% of the time when trad climbing and my gear has always held strong. Only once did a cam pop out when I was belaying a friend and he fell an extra 6 feet, which brought him to about 5 feet from the ground... always a good time. I generally trad climbs I have done many times before and the only times I fall on my gear are on newer climbs that I am not familiar with.

Tony


Partner coldclimb


Jul 2, 2005, 11:17 PM
Post #49 of 79 (11661 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Coldclimb: Do what you like, but with that mentality you are limiting the number (and many would say quality) of climbs that are available to you.

That's always been a motivator for me, the harder I climb the more options I have. I still like climbing stuff well below my max.

I don't fall on gear very often. But, I did fall on the same bolt 6 times on Saturday. :x No RP for me! :lol:

Yeah, this I realize, and it was never more obvious than when I went to Thailand and couldn't climb MOST of the routes there. :lol: I do see and want the benefits of pushing myself, so on a good day I'll try to do so, but most often I just wind up taking things comfortably.


mikewong


Jul 6, 2005, 4:48 PM
Post #50 of 79 (11690 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 29, 2005
Posts: 88

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I learned to lead on trad placements and only fell twice in 5 years of climbing 5-7 days/week.

I never fell gracefully until I started to sport climb. Now my arms and body don't flail anymore when I fall since I'm used to it now. I still don't like to fall on trad gear though.

Mike


takeme


Jul 6, 2005, 6:23 PM
Post #51 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 6, 2003
Posts: 367

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

The questions posed in the original post are very interesting to me. I probably fall more into the "my last fall was 2 months ago" category. I'm an experienced climber and at times I've pushed my gear leading into the mid-5.11 range but fear seems to hold me back from consistently leading at this level.

I've taken several unexpected falls in the 20-25 foot range on gear in some committing places and I think that has affected my outlook. None of these were falls that I would have felt likely to walk away from had I known they were coming, but in all cases I did. Yet, instead of strengthening my trust in "trad" systems of protection, I tend more these days to think of the worst case scenario in any fall. The next such fall could be the one where the shit hits the fan, it could happen next week or in 10 years but I have a really strong fear of being fucked up, permanent brain damage, requiring National Guard scale rescues, etc. Wierd shit happens. I'm more likely to say "take" than ever, and while that bothers me I don't know if it should.

With my home trad crags as Eldo and Lumpy Ridge I think I become more cautious by the year even as my ability slowly improves. So many harder routes in Eldo involve constantly switching between 5.9/10 "do not fall" terrain, and then well protected 5.11. Sometimes I find it hard to switch back and forth between these mindsets in a single pitch. Sometimes the 5.11 is not so well protected.

One final note--I think the criticism of folks who spend their entire careers never taking a fall is misplaced. Why wouldn't it be possible to have a very fulfilling climbing lifestyle staying well within your limits? Personally, though I sometimes push my limits (and only sometimes enjoy doing so), my favorite form of climbing is 1000 foot 5.9s in spectacular settings and if I ever lose the bug to improve, I know I'll be happy with that.


boltdude


Jul 6, 2005, 6:50 PM
Post #52 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 29, 2002
Posts: 685

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Are you people really falling that much on gear? This thread comes as quite a shock to me at least.

If this is really accurate, the primary thing this thread shows is that the current definition of "trad" is well-protected cracks.

The secondary thing this shows is that people are really chasing numbers instead of getting solid at the grade.

For those of you who regularly fall on gear (in my definition that would be at least once out of 10 days trad climbing), are you primarily climbing well protected thin cracks? ("thin" here means protectable by 4" cams and below). Or are people falling on slabs, faces, chimneys, flares, offwidths, etc and just losing skin?


jt512


Jul 6, 2005, 7:12 PM
Post #53 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
The secondary thing this shows is that people are really chasing numbers instead of getting solid at the grade.

No, it shows that people are using sport climbing tactics on so-called trad routes. This brings up (as in regurgitates) the question of whether it is the route itself that is trad or the style that it is climbed in, but that is a side point. A more relevant question is why you think one ought to "get solid in the grade" rather than take falls on gear.

-Jay


mistertyler


Jul 6, 2005, 7:54 PM
Post #54 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 9, 2003
Posts: 197

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
A more relevant question is why you think one ought to "get solid in the grade" rather than take falls on gear.

That all depends on the climber, the protection, the route, etc...


boltdude


Jul 6, 2005, 8:50 PM
Post #55 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 29, 2002
Posts: 685

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
A more relevant question is why you think one ought to "get solid in the grade" rather than take falls on gear.
Simple. Most folks reading this forum - with all the folks advocating falling and saying they do it all the time - will be climbing on routes where that's not safe. If you're on steep terrain with clean falls, no big deal. But most people into trad are climbing low-angle terrain where falls are often not a good option.

All depends on the route, but all these comments advocating falls may sum up to giving newer trad leaders poor advice.

For the record, I took a 25' fall on my first 5.9 lead (2nd pitch of Central Pillar), a 15' on my first solid 5.10 (Waverly Wafer), and a 20' on my first solid 5.11 (Do or Fly). I'm not against pushing your limits and falling on gear, I'm just concerned that all these voices saying they fall on gear all the time may give the wrong message to newer leaders.


saxfiend


Jul 6, 2005, 8:57 PM
Post #56 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 30, 2004
Posts: 1208

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I've been following this thread since it started; now that I've recently taken my first tentative steps into trad leading, I went back through the whole thread again. Lots of interesting input here.

Maybe it's because I just haven't been doing it that long, but I've never worried much about falling on sport leads. Trad, on the other hand, has been an eye-opener. Realizing my life could depend on how well I place a piece makes me wonder how I could ever trust it enough to fall on it. I'm sure that will change with experience.

Two posts that stay with me:

In reply to:
. . . if you aren't falling on your pro while you are learning then to some degree you aren't learning.
In reply to:
you don't trust your gear . . . because you haven't ever had to rely on your gear.
The whole idea of placing pro is that it's going to catch you if you fall. If I'm going to put in a piece but don't trust that it will hold a fall, I probably shouldn't be climbing! :? So I'll have to get over that mental obstacle at some point . . . but I'm not in any rush!

Thanks for some good insights.

JL


jt512


Jul 7, 2005, 7:44 AM
Post #57 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
I've been following this thread since it started; now that I've recently taken my first tentative steps into trad leading, I went back through the whole thread again. Lots of interesting input here.

Maybe it's because I just haven't been doing it that long, but I've never worried much about falling on sport leads. Trad, on the other hand, has been an eye-opener. Realizing my life could depend on how well I place a piece makes me wonder how I could ever trust it enough to fall on it. I'm sure that will change with experience.

Two posts that stay with me:

In reply to:
. . . if you aren't falling on your pro while you are learning then to some degree you aren't learning.
In reply to:
you don't trust your gear . . . because you haven't ever had to rely on your gear.
The whole idea of placing pro is that it's going to catch you if you fall. If I'm going to put in a piece but don't trust that it will hold a fall, I probably shouldn't be climbing! :? So I'll have to get over that mental obstacle at some point . . . but I'm not in any rush!

Thanks for some good insights.

JL

The idea, though, is not to have blind faith in your placements, but rather to actually know that they are good. The only way to develop that knowledge safely is to weight your placements under controlled circumstances. There are three ways to do this. First, you can place gear near ground level, clip in to the gear, and bounce on it. Second, you can lead several clean aid pitches. And, third, you can take intentional lead falls on your gear. This last approach requires you to judge when the terrain is safe enough to fall on (see boltdude's post) and to be able to back up your placement with bomber gear: either a well-constructed multi-piece anchor below the piece you plan to fall on or a loose top rope above you.

-Jay


leewee


Jul 7, 2005, 8:12 AM
Post #58 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 19, 2004
Posts: 33

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

i trust my gear, ive fallen on gear, but i dont do so often...i onsight 5.10 cracks most times and i dont enjoy climbing harder stuff if i have to whip on every move (if i liked to hang dog id go back to sport climbing)...so i go out and climb 10s mostly and have a great time, manytimes i think i might fall and im fine with that i just want the onsight so bad i pull through...

my first trad fall was on to a #2 stopper, that was enough to give me trust in the gear...i often ask people "if you dont trust it why do you spend so much on it"...if i didnt trust my cams id only pay a few bucks tops...and nuts would have to be pennies...


renohandjams


Jul 7, 2005, 8:20 AM
Post #59 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I can see now that if I had been MORE comfortable falling while trad climbing I might have a complete smile right now. I think falling is a good thing. An art to be mastered. I used to be a sponsored snowboarder and an avid skateboarder and the more I fell the more graceful I was when I fell. I was more relaxed when I fell and less likely to break something. I think rock climbing is similar, the more comfortable you are with falling the less likely you are to get injured. I think a good way to learn this is sport climbing, but I never do it when I can use my cams and nuts instead. I don't have any advice to give on how often, or how far, but I do know that the experience you can gain by falling is important.
TradRack.com SuperStore
Free Email Accounts, yourname@TradRack.com, only 60 left to give
Click here to see if your name is available


dougsabum


Jul 7, 2005, 9:27 AM
Post #60 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 22, 2004
Posts: 46

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Some people here are saying they fall every time they go out, sometimes multiple falls each time out.

How often are you replacing your ropes? It seems like some people should be getting new ropes ever week or so, if you follow the recommended fall guidelines put out by rope manufacturers.

If you don't replace your rope after, say, 10 falls, do you feel you are endangering yourself and others around you?


jt512


Jul 7, 2005, 9:37 AM
Post #61 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Some people here are saying they fall every time they go out, sometimes multiple falls each time out.

How often are you replacing your ropes? It seems like some people should be getting new ropes ever week or so, if you follow the recommended fall guidelines put out by rope manufacturers.

If you don't replace your rope after, say, 10 falls, do you feel you are endangering yourself and others around you?

Try actually reading the tag that comes with your rope before claiming to know something about the manufaturer's guidelines. Nowhere does it mention retiring your rope after 10 falls.

-Jay


dougsabum


Jul 7, 2005, 9:55 AM
Post #62 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 22, 2004
Posts: 46

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 - do you try to live out the stereotype of the small-dicked SoCal asshole or is this just you acting natural?

It was just a freakin question, and it certainly wasn't directed at you.

But here is a question for you. Let's say you've fallen on a rope five times and your beloved rope tag says nothing about five falls, yet you see clear evidence of excessive wear - do you replace the rope or do you climb until falling the magic number as given by a rope manufacturer?

With your attitude I hope I never climb with or near you, but if I do I will ask you the history of your rope. It's a fair question.


Partner climbinginchico


Jul 7, 2005, 10:04 AM
Post #63 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 23, 2004
Posts: 3032

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I believe what Jay was getting at was that you don't necessarily have to replace your rope after 10 falls.

If you take 50 falls on it, and it looks good, it probably is.

If you have never fallen on it but it is excessively abraded and has some core shots, it needs to be replaced.

If we all did replace our ropes that often, we would be much poorer, and have a shitload of rope rugs.


jt512


Jul 7, 2005, 10:08 AM
Post #64 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Let's say you've fallen on a rope five times and your beloved rope tag says nothing about five falls, yet you see clear evidence of excessive wear - do you replace the rope or do you climb until falling the magic number as given by a rope manufacturer?

You'd save yourself a lot of public embarrassment by actually reading the tag, as I suggested in the first place. There is no "magic number" of falls on the tag that indicates when a rope should be retired*. Do you need me to spell out what the manufaturer's recommendations are, or can you manage to find the manufaturer's website all by yourself?

In reply to:
With your attitude I hope I never climb with or near you, but if I do I will ask you the history of your rope. It's a fair question.

Don't worry. I don't climb with morons. As for the history of my ropes, they probably hold an average of 6-8 falls per week, and I typically retire them after 8 to 12 months of use. On occasion, a rope will last me for a year and a half. Do the math, if you can manage it.

-Jay

*With one exception: a rope should be retired after a single severe fall.


davidji


Jul 7, 2005, 10:22 AM
Post #65 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
If you don't replace your rope after, say, 10 falls, do you feel you are endangering yourself and others around you?

The UIAA fall rating is for pretty big falls. Small falls are irrelevant.


jt512


Jul 7, 2005, 10:36 AM
Post #66 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If you don't replace your rope after, say, 10 falls, do you feel you are endangering yourself and others around you?

The UIAA fall rating is for pretty big falls. Small falls are irrelevant.

More than that, the UIAA fall rating has nothing to do with either the number of big falls or the number of small falls after which you should retire your rope. The manufaturers of every rope I've owned recommend retiring the rope after a single severe fall. As you imply, they make no recommendation as to a number of routine falls. Instead, they recommend retirement based on time, frequency of use, and noticeable damage.

-Jay


dougsabum


Jul 7, 2005, 10:41 AM
Post #67 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 22, 2004
Posts: 46

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Thanks, davidji, for the reasonable response to an honest question. It seems any confusion on this issue is coming from "small" vs. "big" falls. My inference/implication is that with all the falling being discussed here thay can't all be "small" falls, and even then a "small" fall is subjective.

The way others "present" their arguments or responses tends to not encourage any discussion, and in that sense any message they may have is unfortunately skipped due to the unnecessary aggressiveness of language. It does help remind me why I don't live in a city, though.


jt512


Jul 7, 2005, 10:50 AM
Post #68 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks, davidji, for the reasonable response to an honest question. It seems any confusion on this issue is coming from "small" vs. "big" falls.

Not really. Read my last post.

In reply to:
My inference/implication is that with all the falling being discussed here thay can't all be "small" falls, and even then a "small" fall is subjective.

You're wrong again. Most climbers will not take a single severe fall in their climbing career.

In reply to:
The way others "present" their arguments or responses tends to not encourage any discussion...

Oh, you mean like not letting the fact that you are an ignorant n00b stop you from accusing the entire climbing community of endangering the public because they don't retire their ropes based on your misunderstanding of the manufacturers' guidelines?

-Jay


jeff59


Jul 7, 2005, 10:50 AM
Post #69 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 20, 2005
Posts: 9

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Just a thought -- all my climbs are on site; many are on sight-- call me a retired language teacher (I am) but it does make a difference. As for falling, I avoid it -- it's not climbing, it's falling (language thing again--heh,heh). That said, in almost 40 years of trad leading, I've fallen on good and bad pro, no pro (I got hurt), ice pro(it held but I got hurt) and have determined that I don't like it! I'm neither proud of falling or ashamed--it happens but "every time I go out"?-- you must only climb overhanging rock!! Have fun. Jeff


papounet


Jul 7, 2005, 3:59 PM
Post #70 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 28, 2003
Posts: 471

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I hate falling. I can accept falling when doing sports climb or in a gym. I even practice falls once in a year (and often find myself "liberated")
But I much prefer climbing in "real mountains". There, we can't escape the fact that the consequences of a fall are not good wether the gear holds or not.

I just took last week my first fall on gear. The gear held, but the weight of the backpack flipped me over. Luckily, the guide was hyper attuned to my difficult situation. So I ended up scratching my helmet on the rock.

I'll do my best to 1/ place good gear, 2/ avoid to fall.

On the subject of leader falls, I had a very intersting discussion with 2 Chamonix guides, which were presenting the sort of classic arguments: most young climbers may be very strong gymnastically speaking, but lack the moral fiber to actually climb what used to be called the 6th degree.
They gave 2 examples: a/ a chimney rated III on the arete des papillons route (or on the arete des cosmiques) which most parties avoid as it is not protectable. you have a fixed knotted rope, which nonetheless inspire many people to take the detour, and b/ the "fissure des hirondelles" which is only 7a, but it is a very wet hand crack under a roof with used to be protected by a piton 15m away; the first climber to free it climbs at 8a level. In some situation, you best pro is your skills/strengths/spirits

We discussed some routes, which have both global alpine style rating and pitch by pitch technical ratings. More specifically, we discussed TD routes which have 6a/6b pitches (around (5.10c ?). After my own attempts at (2) TD routes and a few D routes, I have to agree with their wisdom: most climbers would need a much higher technical skill such as 5.11b to attempt this safely.

All this to say: In france, we are somewhat lucky as we have sports routes which are bolted/pitonned where falls most often aren't dangerous and we have unprepared routes ("terrain d'aventure") where additionnal gear is neccessary and where falls most often can be dangerous (not to mention the Alps, the Pyrenées, ...)
thus we have a simple rule: on bolts, falls are OK (and perhaps beneficial to progress), on gear, falls are to be avoided

In other parts of the world, if you don't have the luxury of bolts ;-), there are places where you can "risk" falls and other places where falls are not allowed. unless you know on which routes a climber climbs, you can't tell if his/her attitude toward falls is similar/dissimilar to yours.


saxfiend


Jul 7, 2005, 4:25 PM
Post #71 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 30, 2004
Posts: 1208

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
call me a retired language teacher (I am) . . .

I'm neither proud of falling or ashamed
Did you retire before they decided that nor goes with neither?
:P
JL


renohandjams


Jul 7, 2005, 9:28 PM
Post #72 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I think this is a good movie link for this thread:
A 50 foot fall on a number 2 camalot. I would've messed myself. For now a 20 footer feels plenty big.

http://www.bdel.com/vids/fall.mov

TradRack.com SuperStore
Free Email Accounts, yourname@TradRack.com, only 70 left to give
Click here to see if your name is available


vegastradguy


Jul 7, 2005, 9:56 PM
Post #73 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks, davidji, for the reasonable response to an honest question. It seems any confusion on this issue is coming from "small" vs. "big" falls. My inference/implication is that with all the falling being discussed here thay can't all be "small" falls, and even then a "small" fall is subjective.

a 'big' fall that would cause a rope to be retired immediately is any fall closing in on factor 2 (basically, you need to fall past belay on a multipitch line to create this type of fall). Incidentally, my biggest fall clocked in at a FF 1.5ish and was scary as hell. The rope was immediately retired afterward. Set pro early and often and avoid these types of falls at all costs.

In reply to:
The way others "present" their arguments or responses tends to not encourage any discussion, and in that sense any message they may have is unfortunately skipped due to the unnecessary aggressiveness of language.

actually, jt's response was just making an observation- he pointed out that as a climber, you need to be reading and understanding the directions given to you by the people who make the line you trust your life to- something you had obviously not done before you posted. perhaps you should quit being defensive about someone elses typing and instead focus that energy on actually understanding the functions and limitations of the gear you trust your life to.


davidji


Jul 7, 2005, 10:49 PM
Post #74 of 79 (9281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
a 'big' fall that would cause a rope to be retired immediately is any fall closing in on factor 2 (basically, you need to fall past belay on a multipitch line to create this type of fall).

In the interest of safety, I'll point out that you can't always retire a rope immediately: You may need to finish the climb. Ropes have a recovery time after a big fall (anyone remember/know a ballpark number for that?). When you resume your climb, lead on the other end.

For more details see this thread, especially rgold's first post, and his quote from Chris Harmston.


jeff59


Jul 8, 2005, 9:57 AM
Post #75 of 79 (9056 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 20, 2005
Posts: 9

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Saxfiend-- point well taken-- I stand corrected-- I'm old enough to have used "nor"-- in self defense, I'd say that for those confusing "on site" and "on sight" the niceties of "neither" and "nor" going together are probably wasted; in addition, as a former French language teacher, I am allowed to occasionally make errors in English :P , n'est-ce pas?
In response to the recent post asking about length of time to allow a rope to relax after a fall, if I remember correctly ( I spent 22 years as the American delegate to the UIAA Safety Commission) , the UIAA allows 5 minutes between drops during the "drop test" portion of the test. The advice of a recent poster (davidji) to switch ends of the rope is not unfounded but often totally impractical in the field in the case where " you have to finish the route". As in most mountaineering situations you just have to keep your options open, risks are potentially much more serious and falls are to be AVOIDED. Jeff Lea


jt512


Jul 8, 2005, 10:07 AM
Post #76 of 79 (8271 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In response to the recent post asking about length of time to allow a rope to relax after a fall, if I remember correctly ( I spent 22 years as the American delegate to the UIAA Safety Commission) , the UIAA allows 5 minutes between drops during the "drop test" portion of the test.

I would write that they only allow 5 minutes between drops, as this is known to be insufficient time for the rope to fully recover from a hard fall. The brief time between drops is one reason why the test is so rigorous and consequently why our ropes are so safe.

-Jay


davidji


Jul 8, 2005, 12:46 PM
Post #77 of 79 (8271 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
The advice of a recent poster (davidji) to switch ends of the rope is not unfounded but often totally impractical in the field in the case where " you have to finish the route".
You'd expect that in most cases if you've fallen on the belay and you can still climb, you will reach the belay again and time permitting, continuing the climb leading on the other rope end should be fine.

If you just took a big fall on the belay, can you be sure you won't do it again in exactly the same spot? In potentially bad fall situations, sometimes you could pretect better than you did, and sometimes you can't. Of course the latter cases require more caution.

And if you know the rope recovery time (I have 20-30min in the back of my mind, but no idea if it's correct), it will help you evaluate the situation.

Recovery time or not, note that one end of the used rope in the thread I pointed to in my previous message, broke on the first UIAA fall.


jt512


Jul 8, 2005, 1:04 PM
Post #78 of 79 (8271 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21904

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
If you just took a big fall on the belay, can you be sure you won't do it again in exactly the same spot? Sometimes yes sometimes no. Of course the latter cases require more caution.

Just out of curiosity, are you speaking from experience or theorizing? How many factor-2 falls have you taken and, among those, how many repeat factor-2 falls did you take?

-Jay


davidji


Jul 8, 2005, 2:03 PM
Post #79 of 79 (8271 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776

Re: How often do you fall on gear? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
How many factor-2 falls have you taken and, among those, how many repeat factor-2 falls did you take?
Heh heh. None. I should have edited that and made that clear. Sorry. There's only so much editing you can do.

Anyway I've been in various situations with serious fall potential for me or my partner for whatever reason. Also I'm familiar with cases where climbers fell on the belay repeatedly or fatally. Sometimes you can protect better than you did, and sometimes you can't.


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Trad Climbing

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook