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baskara


Apr 20, 2005, 3:56 AM
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munter hitch
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what do you think about using munter hitch to descending the rope? actually i'm not confident to do that because it's give much friction to the rope that can break the rope. How much the strength or resistance of the rope when against the rope like using munter hitch to descending the rope? Thanx.....all


therat


Apr 20, 2005, 4:46 AM
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LAST RESORT ONLY!!


Partner tisar


Apr 20, 2005, 4:47 AM
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Rappelling on the Munter is a pain. Not so much for the rope wear but mostly for the kink you get into it.

Rope wear is the same as if you would lower someone with the munter, just double it up for the two strands. As this is done regularly (at least in Europe it's quite common to belay with the munter) it's hardly dangerous for the rope. Maybe you'll have to retire it a little earlier.

As belay/rappel devices are very cheap there's no use in descending on the munter anyway. Though it's good to know how to do it, you may need it once...

- Daniel

* edit for spelling *


scottquig


Apr 20, 2005, 4:49 AM
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That's kind of the point of the munter hitch--belaying and descending when you haven't got your device. It's a rope, it's not going to break.


wingnut


Apr 20, 2005, 4:56 AM
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It actually works quite well for both rapelling and belaying, but it does twist the hell out of the rope.

If you need it, use it. if you don't, well, don't.


livinonasandbar


Apr 20, 2005, 6:32 AM
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If you're going to rap using munter hitches, extend one of the knots above the other using a short sling and a second biner. That way the two munters won't be rubbing against another and locking up.

Maybe ya'll know this already... if so, sorry to waste your time.


iltripp


Apr 20, 2005, 6:33 AM
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I've rapped with a munter hitch when it was necessary, although (as almost everyone has said), it is a tremendous pain.

I was flipping through John Long's "Advanced Rock Climbing" yesterday, and I noticed his advice on rapping with a munter. It said to use two separate munters on different, and to extend one with an extra locker. It seems like a complex setup when a single munter on an H.M.S. locker works ok. I wonder how much of a benefit there is... Maybe it would be worth it on really long raps or multipitch raps (although hopefully you don't have to do that with a munter).

On another note, a climber partner of mine when I was in Europe had no belay device. He just used a munter. It worked fine, but I was worried he wouldn't be able to pay out slack fast when needed.


Partner tisar


Apr 20, 2005, 6:48 AM
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In reply to:
On another note, a climber partner of mine when I was in Europe had no belay device. He just used a munter. It worked fine, but I was worried he wouldn't be able to pay out slack fast when needed.

I learned to belay with the Munter first and I've done it for a year before I switched over to the ATC lately. If you're used to it paying out slack needs no more effort than with an ATC.
It doesn't even kink the rope if you keep the strands parallel all the time. I still use the munter from time to time just to keep the feel.

edit to add: From my personal experience I see no sense in useing two biners for abseiling. One big locker does the job quite well except the rope kinging as mentioned before. Two won't make kinkage different so it seems like just more fiddeling to me.

- Daniel


yetanotherdave


Apr 20, 2005, 7:12 AM
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I'd make a rap device by stacking biners before using a munter. The twisting is a pain, especially on long multipitch raps. As a bonis, you can change the number of biners depending on the weight of the climber+gear/rope thickness.

pictures:
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/CrabBrake.htm


paulraphael


Apr 20, 2005, 8:56 AM
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In reply to:
I'd make a rap device by stacking biners before using a munter. The twisting is a pain, especially on long multipitch raps. As a bonis, you can change the number of biners depending on the weight of the climber+gear/rope thickness.

pictures:
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/CrabBrake.htm

This has been my thinking, too--but I realized that the only times I've used a carabiner brake was with old school oval or d-shaped biners. Anyone know how well the setup works with lightweight, asymetrical, wiregate biners and the like? I don't cary the old stuff anymore except for an oval or 2.


Partner j_ung


Apr 20, 2005, 8:57 AM
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In reply to:
I'd make a rap device by stacking biners before using a munter. The twisting is a pain, especially on long multipitch raps. As a bonis, you can change the number of biners depending on the weight of the climber+gear/rope thickness.

pictures:
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/CrabBrake.htm

Yah, I have to agree. I'd way rather biner break than Meunter for a rappel.


slobmonster


Apr 20, 2005, 12:38 PM
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In reply to:
Anyone know how well the setup works with lightweight, asymetrical, wiregate biners and the like? I don't cary the old stuff anymore except for an oval or 2.
It will work fine, with a small caveat. Use your regular-gate biners (2 ovals or Ds) as the torsionally-loaded pair, like this:
http://www.chockstone.org/...Tips/CrabBrake5s.JPG
and then wiregates will work fine as the brake biners:
http://www.chockstone.org/...Tips/CrabBrake1s.JPG
The skinny spines of the wiregates may not give sufficient friction; consider using three (or more).


paulraphael


Apr 20, 2005, 5:47 PM
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ahh, that makes sense. thanks.


mikeehartley


Apr 21, 2005, 7:40 PM
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While the munter is not the rap method of choice for most folks what I've found is that most people have problems with twists because they aren't braking properly (whether belaying or rapping). If you put your brake hand on your hip as with a regular belay device you'll get twists gallore. If you have the brake rope parallel with the loaded strand running up to the anchor (or climber) you will get minimal twists. You also get substantially more braking power this way also. Makes a huge difference if you haven't tried it this way.


tradmanclimbs


Apr 21, 2005, 7:53 PM
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Whats the big deal? The knott is not even a munter. its an old sailing knott. Halfmister? or somthing like that. Munter was an egotistical austrian that tried (aparently with success) to lay claim to a knott that had been in use for thousands of years. It works just fine and is pleanty smooth. if you have your rope management skills dialed the twisting is not a problem and it will get you up and off of a wall if need be. that being said I do have an extra atc in my oh $hit kit 8^)


melekzek


Apr 21, 2005, 8:22 PM
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In reply to:
it's give much friction to the rope that can break the rope

this is hilarious :roll:


climberzrule


May 21, 2005, 1:31 AM
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3 pros for the Munter hitch:

1: It is good for rapping with small ropes because the rope runs over itself. ATCs, figure8s, stitch plates, etc. all run too fast on small diameter ropes.

2: you can pass a knot on rappel without unclipping the rappel device.

3: you don't NEED a rappel device. Good thing if you dropped yours!


ambler


May 21, 2005, 3:56 AM
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In reply to:
Yah, I have to agree. I'd way rather biner break than Meunter for a rappel.
Unintentional humor? 8^)

On shorter, one-rope Munter raps (<30m), I haven't experienced as much kink trouble as other folks are reporting. Both strands on one ordinary locker work just fine.

But constructing a biner brake from a handful of modern funny biners -- that can be less secure. I've watched them start to unclip, as the asymmetrical shapes slide past each other.


slackwareuser


May 22, 2005, 9:53 AM
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tradmanclimbs:
In reply to:
Whats the big deal? The knott is not even a munter. its an old sailing knott. Halfmister? or somthing like that. Munter was an egotistical austrian that tried (aparently with success) to lay claim to a knott that had been in use for thousands of years.

BS! You should be :oops:

facts:
Werner Munter is a Swissman, guide since 1975, researcher, former member of the UIAA safety comission. He is best known as an avalanche expert, he devised a system for evaluating avalanche risks. He _did_ invent the Munter hitch - the sailing knot you confuse it with is the clove hitch, aka "Mastwurf". The Munter hitch is aka "Halbmastwurf", Munter-belay is aka "Halbmastwurf-sicherung" - thus the abreviation HMS for biners which can be used for a Munter belay. The Munter belay was the first belay "device" approved by UIAA as safe for belaying a leader on rock.

opinion:
The Munter is still in many ways the best belay method: high friction (less chance of loosing control of the rope) no need to redirect the brake-side when belaying up a second, easy to feed out/take in rope, an HMS biner is all you need, etc.
Of course I'm biased, I use it all the time :)

opinion #2:
tradmanclimbs, your post makes you a complete a$$hole
ever heard of something called google?


tradrenn


May 24, 2005, 7:23 PM
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In reply to:
i'm not confident to do that because it's give much friction to the rope that can break the rope.

That happened to me about 3 weeks ago, and no Munter's Hitch will not brake the rope ( get that out of your head, that's BS ) It is just less comfortable and twists you rope.

Like other user said "EMERGANCY USE ONLY" ( to rappel )


dirtineye


Jun 2, 2005, 11:38 AM
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In reply to:
tradmanclimbs:
In reply to:
Whats the big deal? The knott is not even a munter. its an old sailing knott. Halfmister? or somthing like that. Munter was an egotistical austrian that tried (aparently with success) to lay claim to a knott that had been in use for thousands of years.

BS! You should be :oops:

facts:
Werner Munter is a Swissman, guide since 1975, researcher, former member of the UIAA safety comission. He is best known as an avalanche expert, he devised a system for evaluating avalanche risks. He _did_ invent the Munter hitch - the sailing knot you confuse it with is the clove hitch, aka "Mastwurf". The Munter hitch is aka "Halbmastwurf", Munter-belay is aka "Halbmastwurf-sicherung" - thus the abreviation HMS for biners which can be used for a Munter belay. The Munter belay was the first belay "device" approved by UIAA as safe for belaying a leader on rock.

Apparently, Werner Munter did not invent the munter after all. Unless he did it back before he was born. Ashley published in 1944, and the knot had been around a LONG time before that.

From Ashley's,

Knot 1174, the Crossing Knot tied over a stake.

Knot 1195, the Zigzag Knot. ('Double' munter)


slobmonster


Jun 2, 2005, 12:51 PM
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In reply to:
tradmanclimbs:
In reply to:
...Munter was an egotistical austrian that tried (aparently with success) to lay claim to a knott that had been in use for thousands of years.
BS! You should be :oops:
...tradmanclimbs, your post makes you a complete a$$hole
ever heard of something called google?
Relax, please. Trusting whatever one finds on google as the last word? That's almost as dangerous as trusting the advice you're likely to receive here.


paulraphael


Jun 2, 2005, 12:59 PM
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it wouldn't be surprising if munter re-invented it, without knowing it had been done before. and he was likely the first person to use the knot for climbing.

it's actually unlikely to truly invent ANY knot. sailors have been tying knots for every imaginable reason (sometimes just boredom) for thousands of years. this whole climbing fad started just a couple of hundred ago. and we were lucky ... all the knots had already been invented. we just had to sort through them all and figure out which ones could be trusted. usually by trial and error.


dirtineye


Jun 2, 2005, 1:31 PM
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In reply to:
it wouldn't be surprising if munter re-invented it, without knowing it had been done before. and he was likely the first person to use the knot for climbing.

that is possible. He certainly popularized it for climbing, from what we can tell.


In reply to:
it's actually unlikely to truly invent ANY knot. sailors have been tying knots for every imaginable reason (sometimes just boredom) for thousands of years. this whole climbing fad started just a couple of hundred ago. and we were lucky ... all the knots had already been invented. we just had to sort through them all and figure out which ones could be trusted. usually by trial and error.

I think this sorting and finding the best ones for climbing is still going on.

For instance, perhaps the constrictor hitch is better than a clove hitch. Possibly the blood or barrel knot is much better than the double or triple fishermans.

And Ashley himself found several new knots. Considering his research did go back several hundred years, what he claimed as his creation was probably all his, at least in terms of published knots.


Partner rgold


Jun 2, 2005, 2:06 PM
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The following quote comes from an article entitled Analysis of Belay Techniques by Carlo Sanantoni, in Journal of the UIAA, 3 (2000), "Equipment and Its Applications."

In reply to:
The MB (Mezzo Barcaiolo = Demi Capstan = Halbmastwurf) is such a simple tool that the only possible development concerned the kind of karabiner used with it; this karabiner is now called HMS (Halbmastwurf- Sicherung) in UIAA standards. The MB name means “a half of the knot which is used by the sailors to secure a boat to a bollard in a harbour”. The fact that the Britons call it the “Italian Hitch” does not suggest, I am afraid, any particular consideration for its inventors but, rather, lack of interest for the device...The Americans did even worse than the Britons: they called it Munter Hitch, referring to a Swiss guide of name Munter who demonstrated the MB, or a similar braking device, during his visit to mountaineering circles in the USA, sometime during the ’70s.


mattm


Jun 2, 2005, 3:37 PM
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Trophy to Mr Gold again for

1) being on the spot with the good information as always

2) being from my old home town of Poughkeepsie


scuclimber


Jun 2, 2005, 5:08 PM
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In reply to:
I am a complete tool!!!


papounet


Jun 3, 2005, 5:34 AM
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In reply to:
The following quote comes from an article entitled Analysis of Belay Techniques by Carlo Sanantoni, in Journal of the UIAA, 3 (2000), "Equipment and Its Applications."

In reply to:
The MB (Mezzo Barcaiolo = Demi Capstan = Halbmastwurf) is such a simple tool that the only possible development concerned the kind of karabiner used with it; this karabiner is now called HMS (Halbmastwurf- Sicherung) in UIAA standards. The MB name means “a half of the knot which is used by the sailors to secure a boat to a bollard in a harbour”. The fact that the Britons call it the “Italian Hitch” does not suggest, I am afraid, any particular consideration for its inventors but, rather, lack of interest for the device...The Americans did even worse than the Britons: they called it Munter Hitch, referring to a Swiss guide of name Munter who demonstrated the MB, or a similar braking device, during his visit to mountaineering circles in the USA, sometime during the ’70s.

I used to view rgold posts with the highest respect. This just increased to next-awe status as rgold and I share the same reading.
;-)

http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=38406&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=17

Now, can I claim FA right and say that rgold can not retrobolt this piece of information I was first to dig ?

Nawww, I respect rgold too much for this, he can quote this piece of UIAA wisdom all he wants. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Partner rgold


Jun 3, 2005, 7:21 AM
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Now, can I claim FA right and say that rgold can not retrobolt this piece of information I was first to dig ?

Absolutely. I apologize for bursting through doors already open.


slackwareuser


Jun 3, 2005, 10:51 AM
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rgold:

In reply to:
Apparently, Werner Munter did not invent the munter after all. Unless he did it back before he was born. Ashley published in 1944, and the knot had been around a LONG time before that.

I stand corrected.

slobmonster:

In reply to:

Relax, please.

You're perfectly right, I need to relax. 8^) I wrote what I wrote in anger, because when I read something like "Munter was an egotistical austrian" I see things through a red haze... I think people who strive to make climbing safer for all of us deserve more than this.

It's like when I read the name of Dr. Karl Prusik misspelled in all possible ways... must be a Euro's obsession with encycopledic knowledge. Or is it simply respect?


Partner drector


Jun 3, 2005, 11:07 AM
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In reply to:
It's like when I read the name of Dr. Karl Prusik misspelled in all possible ways... must be a Euro's obsession with encycopledic knowledge. Or is it simply respect?

Ah. The curse of the internet. Bad or incorrect information is more readily available than correct and useful information. Especially spelling of peoples names. This thread is a testament to that.

But you may also be right about respect considering the 2nd grade grammar and miscapitalization of the word "I" seen constantly on the internet.

Oh, and I've used the M.H., M.B., I.H., knot for rappel a few times using the two carabiner, with one offset, method. In a pinch, you could get by with a standard QD and a standard carabiner, but lockers are the only safe choice. I didn't have a twisting problem. I've also used it for belay. There is nothing "EMERGENCY ONLY" about this knot. It is safe and useful.

Dave


papounet


Jun 3, 2005, 3:16 PM
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Seriously, one of the most useful application of the Munter hitch is for the leader to belay his/her second. Using it to belay the leader requires more care when giving slack.
Rappelling or belaying a top rope with the Munter hitch on the contrary create a lot of kinks in the rope.

French guides, and all kind of German and Dutch climbers routinely use the Munter hitch instead of more complex tools as it requires no extra gear, does not kink the rope (if used in this manner) and may provide some dynamism through limited rope slippage.
It is not an uncomon sight to see in French mountains and crags climbers belaying with a Munter and using a fig_8 descender for rappels


ddriver


Jun 7, 2005, 3:39 PM
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Here's my stupid Munter story for your entertainment.

My wife and I were headed down to Durango to visit friends and decided to climb Otto's Route on Independence Monument at Colorado National Monument. It's mostly easy but has a cool overhanging finish. Anyway, we were hours from home, pulled into the lot only to discover we hadn't brought our climbing packs. There was a duffel bag in the truck with ropes, one pair of climbing shoes, a handful of slings and some nuts. What the hell, we'll go take a look. We fashioned harnesses using flat webbing for her and sewn supertape for me. I lead while she followed in running shoes. Everything went well and we topped out. The moment of dread arrived with the descent, starting with a free rappel off the summit. We had only enough biners for her to fashion a carabiner brake rappel device. I was forced to rappel using a double-rope munter hitch. What a clusterf**k, and that supertape was none too comfortable on the family jewels. So, my advice is to avoid at all costs rappelling with a Munter. :wink:


kimmyt


Jun 7, 2005, 3:47 PM
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Seriously, one of the most useful application of the Munter hitch is for the leader to belay his/her second. Using it to belay the leader requires more care when giving slack.

On that note, instead of posting another topic or doing a search (what, so I'm lazy!) I recently used the Munter to belay up the second after one of us had dropped our ATCs. We switched off and on with the remaining ATC, the leader using the Munter to belay up the second and on the next pitch as we switched leaders we passed the belay device up.

So my question is, since the Munter is a friction knot, and if the rope is weighted when you're belaying a second (say your second falls and needs to be lowered to a ledge in the case of an overhang or a roof) how can you do this? It seems it would be very hard or impossible, but maybe I'm missing something...

K.


moondog


Jun 7, 2005, 3:52 PM
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Re: munter hitch [In reply to]
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Munter was an egotistical austrian that tried (aparently with success) to lay claim to a knott that had been in use for thousands of years.

not sure about this. much of the world calls it the "italian hitch" - i think american climbers named it the munter hitch after the guy who first "showed" it to them (mr. munter).


papounet


Jun 7, 2005, 6:19 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Seriously, one of the most useful application of the Munter hitch is for the leader to belay his/her second. Using it to belay the leader requires more care when giving slack.

On that note, instead of posting another topic or doing a search (what, so I'm lazy!) I recently used the Munter to belay up the second after one of us had dropped our ATCs. We switched off and on with the remaining ATC, the leader using the Munter to belay up the second and on the next pitch as we switched leaders we passed the belay device up.

So my question is, since the Munter is a friction knot, and if the rope is weighted when you're belaying a second (say your second falls and needs to be lowered to a ledge in the case of an overhang or a roof) how can you do this? It seems it would be very hard or impossible, but maybe I'm missing something...

K.

What you miss is seing how the Munter hitch, which is one side of the biner as the belayer yards the slack, gets pulled through the biner if there is a tension on the other side. Suddenly the rope under tension squashes the rope loop against the biner and provides the friction, which makes the Munter so interesting.

This is why a large biner (HMS) is preferred


slobmonster


Jun 7, 2005, 6:34 PM
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... but maybe I'm missing something...
Just try it out, with a nice large 'biner as already suggested. The hitch does not "block" the rope completely. You still need your hand to do the braking; lowering someone once the hitch is loaded is easy as pie.


paulraphael


Jun 7, 2005, 8:32 PM
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... but maybe I'm missing something...
Just try it out, with a nice large 'biner as already suggested. The hitch does not "block" the rope completely. You still need your hand to do the braking; lowering someone once the hitch is loaded is easy as pie.

This is an advantage the munter has over autoblocking devices: the fact that it does not lock up. I like the hands-free advantages of my b-52, but in a situation where I think there's a chance the 2nd may need slack or be lowered (beginners especially) I opt for the Munter. Much easier to use in these situations.

This is also why the Munter/mule combination is used in rescues. It's one of the few climbers' knots that can be released under load.


nonick


Jun 7, 2005, 9:52 PM
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I've used a munter to rapell without any problems at all. Its incredibly useful to know in case you drop your belay device. ITs a great knot to belay as well.

A munter is one of the "must know" knots.


knudenoggin


Jun 7, 2005, 10:50 PM
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it wouldn't be surprising if munter re-invented it, without knowing it had been done before. and he was likely the first person to use the knot for climbing.
Seems that Italians and maybe some others used it independently of Munter.
Btw, it's 'Carlo Zanantoni' (not 'San'...: hmmm, "S" & "Z" differentiate twists :o)
Thanks to others for noting this reference, which was (still?) accessible on-line.

As for twisting/kinking with the MB (Mezzo Barcaiolo, to acknowledge Italians),
to quote Clyde Soles's Outdoor Knots, pp52-3:
Similarly [to the use of a figure-eight rappel device] the Munter hitch is often
accused of severely kinking ropes, particularly if used for a rappel, but this is
another case of pilot error. It will add twists only when the brake hand is held off
to the side--really! Prove this to yourself by gripping the rope tightly as it runs
under tension through a Munter and you will feel the twists building up only
when the rope is not parallel.


In reply to:
it's actually unlikely to truly invent ANY knot. sailors have been tying knots for every imaginable reason (sometimes just boredom) for thousands of years. this whole climbing fad started just a couple of hundred ago. and we were lucky ... all the knots had already been invented. we just had to sort through them all and figure out which ones could be trusted. usually by trial and error.
Invention of knots is a philosophical issue; discovery is a less
debatable term. But sailors and other cordage users of the past didn't contend
with the various synthetic cordage modern users face--perhaps esp. the great
elasticity of nylon presenting a challenge, and again now the great slickness
of some hi-modulus fibers. (For some relatively new friction hitches, check out
some arborist sites!)

In reply to:
And Ashley himself found several new knots. Considering his research did go back several hundred years, what he claimed as his creation was probably all his, at least in terms of published knots.
To credit him or prior works for showing the DemiCapstan/MB/Munter goes too
far, IMHO: the highly dynamic (and safety critical) use given to that structure by
some climbing innovators is not at all anticipated in prior works, AFAIK.
Among some things he claims to have originated (his claim to the Constrictor,
fyi, is shown to be false, though I doubt he knew), he hasn't always seen the
full benefit. E.g., #1425 is a quite good bend (rope-2-rope joint), but Ashley
dismisses it as "lacking in outstanding qualities," but it actually is pretty
impressive in combining strength, security-when-slack, & ability to be untied
(as opposed to, say, the Grapevine Bend). (His tying method and images
are less outstanding.)

Ashley's Stopper (misnamed "Oysterman's" by him) is quite nice; this got
into Clyde's book, albeit bass ackwards, as the "Bowline Stopper". Well,
here, neither "invention" nor "discovery" seems apt, but it's a common way!
(Just load the opposite end from what Clyde shows; it's much quicker to tie,
too--a simple Overhand Noose with the end nipped by the noose.)

(-;


dirtineye


Jun 8, 2005, 8:34 AM
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And Ashley himself found several new knots. Considering his research did go back several hundred years, what he claimed as his creation was probably all his, at least in terms of published knots.
To credit him or prior works for showing the DemiCapstan/MB/Munter goes too
far, IMHO: the highly dynamic (and safety critical) use given to that structure by
some climbing innovators is not at all anticipated in prior works, AFAIK.
Among some things he claims to have originated (his claim to the Constrictor,
fyi, is shown to be false, though I doubt he knew), he hasn't always seen the
full benefit. E.g., #1425 is a quite good bend (rope-2-rope joint), but Ashley
dismisses it as "lacking in outstanding qualities," but it actually is pretty
impressive in combining strength, security-when-slack, & ability to be untied
(as opposed to, say, the Grapevine Bend). (His tying method and images
are less outstanding.)

Ashley's Stopper (misnamed "Oysterman's" by him) is quite nice; this got
into Clyde's book, albeit bass ackwards, as the "Bowline Stopper". Well,
here, neither "invention" nor "discovery" seems apt, but it's a common way!
(Just load the opposite end from what Clyde shows; it's much quicker to tie,
too--a simple Overhand Noose with the end nipped by the noose.)

(-;

That Ashley showed the munter cannont be denied, it is there in black and white. The fact that this knot has climbing uses, promoted by others, does not influence the prior existence of the knot.

#1452 is a nice bend that he claims.


knudenoggin


Jun 8, 2005, 1:33 PM
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That Ashley showed the munter cannont be denied, it is there in black and white. The fact that this knot has climbing uses, promoted by others, does not influence the prior existence of the knot.
This then is a debate about what a knot is--whether just some image
in B&W, or something more. There's nothing in Ashley or elsewhere at that
time to suggest the dynamic use of this knot.

In reply to:
#1452 is a nice bend that he claims.
Indeed, but my '1425' wasn't a transposition but "sic"--it is THAT knot that has
such features as I described. One fellow did some break testing in small stuff
of the knot-A vs. knot-B sort, and 14twentyfive fared well.
(There are a couple of ways of tying the other,
"Ashley's Bend" (CLDay, et al.), 14fiftytwo: if you position the ends so that they do some
walking and leave their collars loose, you get a knot that can jam secure
from loosening (but possibly be hard to untie, and weaker, IMHO); put the
ends the other side of each other, and it's wonderfully easy to untie, no
matter.)

(-;


dirtineye


Jun 8, 2005, 2:38 PM
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That Ashley showed the munter cannont be denied, it is there in black and white. The fact that this knot has climbing uses, promoted by others, does not influence the prior existence of the knot.
This then is a debate about what a knot is--whether just some image
in B&W, or something more. There's nothing in Ashley or elsewhere at that
time to suggest the dynamic use of this knot.

The three mentions of what we now call the munter in Ashley's are reporting the use of the knot and show that the knot existed and was used prior to the 1970's. That is far from the knot merely being an image in black and white.

As for the dynamic use of the knot, check out the zigzag knot description in Ashley's.


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