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jdouble
Apr 26, 2005, 10:20 PM
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Best wishes on your recovery. Kind of wierd/ironic that of all the things to fail while climbing trad at J-tree, a bolt was unclipped from a backclip.......
Get well, see you out there. Thanks for posting.
Jay
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grover
Apr 26, 2005, 10:20 PM
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Glad to hear you are not busted up, speedy recovery...... I'll try and send you a copy of "Rural climber"
:lol:
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jt512
Apr 26, 2005, 10:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: amd what on earth were you thinking when you INTENTIONALLY backclipped. the draw wouldve twisted sooner or later because the rope wouldve lifted it frim the rock enoug to untwist the slings. yeah, well.. i wont do it again. but honestly, i really didnt think it was going to be a problem.
I don't see anything in your original post to suggest that backlipping had anything to do with the rope coming unclipped. You say that rope came unclipped before you fell. You may have managed to push the gate open with your foot - or something along those lines - when you passed the bolt, but you could have done that whether backclipped or not.
-Jay
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bellatoris
Apr 26, 2005, 10:58 PM
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Thanks for your post and get better soon.
I also took a 25' decker albeit with some stretch in the rope. These things always happen when little problems quickly start to accumulate, and chance things that never happen, all of a sudden do. If we can share and learn we all win.
Thanks again.
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kp9597
Apr 26, 2005, 11:18 PM
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No head injury? But you had about an hour of hazy confusion? Still having headaches, trouble concentrating, any dizziness?
'Cause sounds like you suffered a concussion - and you need to REST, no activity/running/biking, etc for awhile.
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corpse
Apr 26, 2005, 11:38 PM
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Another suggestion on trad draws (and some loose sport draws),if you have a decent clip (not super pumped or desperate), you can use your normal biner that you clip into, but rotate it 180*.. This way the rope can't pop out, and its the next best thing to a locker. With my trad draws, I do it about half the time I clip.
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sixleggedinsect
Apr 26, 2005, 11:48 PM
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In reply to: Another suggestion on trad draws (and some loose sport draws),if you have a decent clip (not super pumped or desperate), you can use your normal biner that you clip into, but rotate it 180*.. This way the rope can't pop out, and its the next best thing to a locker. With my trad draws, I do it about half the time I clip.
yeah, i actually do that a lot too. in fact, a critical clip on a route that was hard for me- i often do it out of habit but perhaps i forgot this time. on serious clips, like the bolt protecting the traverse on sidewinder, ill add a second biner, opposite and opposed, on the rope, and flip the top biner over, which i think makes it a tad harder to unclip with rope movement. and thanks for the suggestions about locker draws. i used to carry one, but have felt that the margin was so good on trad sligns that i stopped using them. whoops.. another nice compromise is a cute biner made by camp which has a plastic insert in the gate which locks and unlocks with a clipping motion, but woudl be darn near impossible to come unlocked from just the rope. cant remember the name of the thigns. again, i had them on draws for critical clips, but eventually both of them were relegated to the biner pile/ camera clip-in. once again- whoops..
to the concerned poster: yes, i had a concussion. for the hour after the incident it took great concentration to remember things like my home phone number and whether or not i had health insurance. now, three days of rest later, im a-ok, and with any luck will stay that way.
thanks for your collective concern, folks. i didnt think for a second id get this kind of feedback, and certainly not much well-wishing, so im feeling pretty warm and fuzzy inside.
cheers,
anthony
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sixleggedinsect
Apr 27, 2005, 4:11 AM
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In reply to: I don't see anything in your original post to suggest that backlipping had anything to do with the rope coming unclipped. You say that rope came unclipped before you fell. You may have managed to push the gate open with your foot - or something along those lines - when you passed the bolt, but you could have done that whether backclipped or not.
it definitely unclipped before i fell, which i feel in many ways precipitated the massive griptitude that precipitated the minimal grip, so to speak. i did go through the motion of 'backclipping' before i climbed past the draw, but i really felt secure about the thing as i moved up. i dont know what this was based on in this particular clip, but when i clip bolts, and trad pro that doesnt have a loose sling, i always glance to make sure the top biner wont be loaded over a bulge or an edge, the bottom biner isnt obviously backclipped, and make adjustments until i like it. im a pansy, and ill be the first to admit it. years of this diddling around lent me a strong belief that things i climbed above would hold, assuming the pro was good.
ive kicked a lot of pro on the way up, so the draw unclipping with a kick is certainly a possibility, but in this case i really didnt think that was the case. i was moving cautiously through that sequence, and when i unwittingly mess with pro i always keep an eye on it to make sure it's still the way i left it.
what i do remember, is that when my belayer let me in on the big secret i was just staring down at the thing, almost open mouthed, thinking 'this can't be. it *can't* unclip.'
another thing which popped into my head when i took a glance at a photo of the route is that the cam slots i could have loaded up to save myself were far right, and im pretty sure i switched into a strong layback left off the most positive holds there were as soon as i felt my life was in danger. i dont have clear memories of the post-grip thought process, but i might not have been able to place pro from that layback (with my forearms, anyway..), and i might not have even been aware of those deep pockets from my odd viewpoint.
a lot of folks have made comments that ive shared my mistakes and will learn from them. i mentioned the re-clip in the first post, but i still dont think that that draw was really backclipped in the traditional sense of the word. ie: i dont think the critical mistake was backclipping the draw. the critical mistake was not keeping my head together after the bolt unclipped. i should have been able to send that route clean, but instead i switched over to newbie climber im-so-scared-hold-me-tight climbing and my soft brain (soon to be softer) set up tunnel vision mode and the writing was on the wall. i'd say the second critical error is trusting that a single non locker is bomber, even if it is at the end of a trad sling, oriented, untweaked, and all that. im re-acquainting those camp trick-lockers to the rack.
being a pansy, and relating to fellow partners when they get gripped, i spend a lot of time convincing shaky people at the end of my rope to put pro in. if someone on the ground had yelled up 'hey, dipsh*t, put the #2 in the pocket out right' maybe i would have snapped out of it.
wishful thinking. ive spent a lot of time thinking about this over and over. its hard not to, sort of a decompression process, i guess. its the only time ive ever had an accident resulting in real injury, climbing or otherwise, and certainly the only time ive ever been that scared, with the possible exception of some early childhood blocked memories;)
off to bed, to dream of pleasant things.
anthony
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dirtineye
Apr 27, 2005, 1:38 PM
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I'd say your biggest mistake of three was thinking you could run it out when you couldn't. Failing to downclimb a little and fix your problem, oh well, what can you say about that? Worrrying about the send, instead of what was really important, that is called Climbing Hubris, which often leads to trouble.
You also had several chances to get in more pro, and passed them by for some strange reason.
I hope you attitude about, 'when in doubt run it out', changes, I know mine did when I hit the ground once. You were not as lucky as I was, but at least you are OK, and you have a golden opportunity to never screw up like that again.
About strange unclippings on trad slings, it happens sometimes even when they are extended. Nobody believes this until it happens to them or they see it happen. Welcome to the club.
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iltripp
Apr 27, 2005, 1:47 PM
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In reply to: About strange unclippings on trad slings, it happens sometimes even when they are extended. Nobody believes this until it happens to them or they see it happen. Welcome to the club.
Ditto that... I looked down to see a nut had become unclipped just the other day.
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reunionron
Apr 27, 2005, 2:20 PM
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Thanks for posting so we could all be reminded to climb safe. Hope you have a quick recovery.
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handcrack
Apr 27, 2005, 2:45 PM
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If you're still in JT and need a hand feel free to pm me.
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sixleggedinsect
Apr 27, 2005, 6:16 PM
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In reply to: I'd say your biggest mistake of three was thinking you could run it out when you couldn't. Failing to downclimb a little and fix your problem, oh well, what can you say about that? Worrrying about the send, instead of what was really important, that is called Climbing Hubris, which often leads to trouble.
well, i hear you. but im trying to say that i had a bad case of Climbing Stupidity, not Climbing Hubris. im not the run-it-out kind of guy. the phrase 'when in doubt run it out' never occurs to me. downclimbing didnt seem like a good option for someone at my level. i was basically in the middle or slightly above the crux, with decking as the outcome if i botched downclimbing the moves, and the ledge literally a couple feet above me. when it turned out i would deck if i blew it, i switched into must-not-fall jedi-grip mode and slowed the heck down and didnt have the forearms to pull it off. it was my bad, but i dont think 'im totally going to send this route clean' was my motive. it was more like 'i need to get that ledge without dying' and i wasnt thinking clearly enough to do the job right.
In reply to: You also had several chances to get in more pro, and passed them by for some strange reason.
that strange reason was me in a pumpy layback not thinking clearly. like i said- if someone had said 'dude, you could get a good cam in the pocket out right' i might have snapped right out of it.
In reply to: you have a golden opportunity to never screw up like that again.
that's the plan.
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perswig
Apr 28, 2005, 11:49 AM
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SLI, congrats for being a stand-up ....er, bug. You post a good description of the accident, endure some near-rude and unhelpful criticism, and thank people for their interest and responses. Plus, that broken thumb thing (f**k me, that HAS to hurt like a mother). I'm with you in the (wrong?) belief that trad draws, esp extended, make a true 'backclip' SNAFU much less likely. I did wonder about the unclip prefall, whether the rope was gate-trapped and not fully dropped in or rope drag opened the biner against the rock, etc etc. But no sense beating it to death. Chances are, you'll place massive pro your first couple leads back, taper quickly to a slightly higher-than-normal paranoia level, and watch certain placements REAL carefully as you climb above them. Sorry it took you decking to let us all be reminded of this stuff; esp since it sounds like you had a stellar day of leads up to that pt. Good luck with the rehab.
And thanks to those posting about rotating the rope end biner or doubling up. (slaps forehead) Why didn't I think of that. I hate dicking around with screwgate locker unless I'm building an anchor.
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rendog
Apr 28, 2005, 2:02 PM
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good to hear you're ok man, lucky as hell too.
been there, din't deck, but managed to keep my head together when I realized how long of a fall it would've been onto really sharp rocks if I fell. Got a piece in as soon as I'd realized what happened, (dumb mistake, rookie year, won't happen again I hope).
also just a week ago I was on solid gold, when I realized that it was very possible for me to deck if I blew while clipping the 4th bolt on that climb. kept my shit on track, with some encouragement form Michael, Matt and Skibby, ("me and my wife and some other whore, floating down the river on a sh!thouse door".....) clipped in and hung out for what seemed like forever trying to stop the shakes afterwards. LOL, I don't mind crimpy climbs, but OMFG! this one takes the cake hands down
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jt512
Apr 28, 2005, 5:15 PM
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First of all, like dirtineye, I think your most serious mistake was not to take the opportunity to get a bomber cam in, even if it meant placing the cam in the best, or only, handhold. Even if placing the cam would have forced a fall, at least the fall would have been safe. The rule really is: When in doubt about your safety, place pro, even if doing so makes it less likely that you'll send the route. I'm sure you realize this by now, but I wanted to state it explicitly in the thread, since there has been so much emphasis on other elements of the accident.
If you have not read the Rock Warrior's Way by Arno Ilgner, you really should. It's a great book. It is interesting to consider the following statement from a "warrior" perspective:
In reply to: i was basically in the middle or slightly above the crux, with decking as the outcome if i botched downclimbing the moves, and the ledge literally a couple feet above me. when it turned out i would deck if i blew it, i switched into must-not-fall jedi-grip mode and slowed the heck down and didnt have the forearms to pull it off. it was...like 'i need to get that ledge without dying' and i wasnt thinking clearly enough to do the job right.
When you realized you were in danger, you became scared (naturally enough), and focused on the outcome -- getting to the ledge -- as "safely" as possible. But by trying to climb "safely" you actually increased the danger. You overgripped and climbed too slowly, causing you to fatigue and fall on a section within your abilities.
What would maximize your chances of reaching the ledge without falling would be to climb the section as well as possible. To do so requires that you shift your focus from the outcome (the ledge and safety) to the process of climbing itself, focusing internally, with your attention on doing the moves as well as possible (gripping lightly, finding the best balance, etc.), rather than the goal of attaining the ledge.
-Jay
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sixleggedinsect
Apr 28, 2005, 5:59 PM
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In reply to: When you realized you were in danger, you became scared (naturally enough), and focused on the outcome -- getting to the ledge -- as "safely" as possible. But by trying to climb "safely" you actually increased the danger. You overgripped and climbed too slowly, causing you to fatigue and fall on a section within your abilities. What would maximize your chances of reaching the ledge without falling would be to climb the section as well as possible. To do so requires that you shift your focus from the outcome (the ledge and safety) to the process of climbing itself, focusing internally, with your attention on doing the moves as well as possible (gripping lightly, finding the best balance, etc.), rather than the goal of attaining the ledge.
i know, i know. i lost it.
when i pick out climbs, i often get pretty aggressive about mining protection beta (do i need double or triples in a certain size, is the crux protected, etc). that way i dont have surprises on the route, and i can work out my lead head issues on the ground. that's not to say i dont get on routes that have runout sections, or even potential decking situations (like every single bolt protected climb in jtree;), but i look at them from the ground, think it out beforehand, and have a rough idea where the dicey bits will be. for this reason, i generally think i do a good job treading lightly and climbing well high above pro. heck, just that morning id climbed four or five routes, a couple were slightly hairy- run for your life, with its way high first clip, and then runout to decking to the second clip (albeit the second bolt was above easier terrain), and sidewinder, which has a 15' extremely thin/slopey/no-hands traverse protected by one bolt at the extreme right of the traverse, and it was windy as hell.
the problem on the r.ski track was that i approached this climb with the "im going to have solid pro all the way up" mindset, charged right into the crux, and found myself in a very new predicament. untested at this grade with bad/no pro, and surprised as hell, i lost my cool and temporarily the use of my thumbs;)
ill look up the rock warrior book. sounds interesting.
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climbingnurse
Apr 28, 2005, 7:25 PM
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Some thoughts:
-Falling more than 20' is pretty serious. I'm sure you found that out by the way you were treated in the ER. We usually figure you've got a greater than 50% chance of dying when you do that and we make you an automatic trauma patient. The fact that you weren't even really injured is pretty amazing. Have you thought about buying a lottery ticket? Cuz now might be a good time.
-I hate reading posts like this... I feel much better about myself when accidents occur because people do bonehead things I would never do. I could totally see this happening to me, and that scares me. A lot. I think that might be behind some of the responses telling you that you are a bonehead. It's a coping mechanism.
-I don't like to clip bolts with trad draws. I always carry a QD or two for that.
-Like you, I don't really think of trad draws being backclippable. But I do often look down and see the rope hanging in that biner in ways that make my sphincter pucker.
-For that reason I will often put a locker or two biners opposite and opposed on the end of a piece that must not fail. I carry some free biners and a couple lockers for that reason. Note the use of the word often and not always. Scary. Maybe I'll do it more often now.
Thanks for the very useful post! It sure beats reading about whether or not cracks should be bolted.
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frankfurter
Apr 28, 2005, 7:44 PM
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Hey man, the same damn thing happened to me years ago. I feel your pain...except for the part about breakin stuff, no good. Hope you get better.
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sixleggedinsect
Apr 28, 2005, 8:30 PM
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In reply to: just a week ago I was on solid gold, when I realized that it was very possible for me to deck if I blew while clipping the 4th bolt on that climb. LOL, I don't mind crimpy climbs, but OMFG! this one takes the cake hands down
solid gold. i did a thin incut crimpfest on one of the astrodomes that sounds about right(?). it was a few weeks ago. pretty sure that is the one. it had classic FAIsSuchABadass jtree bolting, including a fat runout near the top through sustained climbing, and a lower bolt placed way right off the obvious line, to make rope drag an issue on what should have been a straight climb.
i hear you, man. painful. another partner wanted to give it a go and i said id belay him and jug up behind him;). we ended up picking something friendlier.
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larryd
Apr 28, 2005, 9:12 PM
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In reply to: ... Climbing Hubris, which often leads to trouble. ... I hope you attitude about, 'when in doubt run it out', changes,...
I had the opportunity to climb with Anthony out here in Red Rock and his mental approach seemed very controlled and rational. Rather out of character to assume a high-risk cowboy attitude. I'd trust him on the sharp end any day...
Hey Anthony-- get better quick now!!
Larry
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epic_ed
Apr 28, 2005, 9:18 PM
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Hope you heal fast. Very glad it wasn't any worse.
Ed
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icenwy
Apr 28, 2005, 9:33 PM
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Thanks for the post(s), and glad to hear you are OK.
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poorboy
Apr 28, 2005, 9:43 PM
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Not sure if this is off topic but we were at Optimator Wall, Indian Creek last week and a guy decked right next to us.
We were climbin Neat (5.10) and the guy was going up Hayduke Lives (5.10+). Apparently to do that climb you start up Neat then do a hand traverse to the right to get to the crack. The guy was trying to climb straight up to get into the crack (off route?). He had 3 TCU's in a very thin seam, about 25 feet up. He kind of tried to go for the move, but then it looked like he backed off / jumped off. He ripped all 3 TCUs (the rock broke), hit the ground, then rolled down the hill. Miraculously, he was OK.
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