i'ma do something to advance the sport on a global level. you gotta problem with that?

Does anyone else think that for every one climber who becomes a trad climber, two become sport climbers :?: :?: :idea:

I'm sure some of those alpinists you know how to place trad gear. Like someone else suggested, maybe you could buy a drill (share the costs?) and bolt choss until you get the idea.

Just guessing here, but those columns look a lot like basalt flows. As in Devils Tower. Maybe one should consider the trad lines before Mr. Bosch and Mr. Hilti visit town.

...bolting is easier, safer and cheaper for the masses.

Trad climbing is only cheaper and more attractive if it's you and 100+ routes, not if it's 100+ people and one route.

Yeah but not in that canyon. They don't have any actual real sport routes here. And I've never climbed one, I was a gym rat in Fresno my first 4 months climbing. Then when I found out I was coming to Armenia and I realized they had no gyms here, I bought rope and harness, and some toprope equipment so I could manage here. But I'd really like some sport routes so the youth and I have some closer connections with nature. The trad is a good idea, but I still have to overcome a lot of fears before I can start trusting my trad.

I've met a french mountain guide who's been bolting a large sport area in the south of Crete/Greece for years, paying all by himself, just for the satisfaction of setting this thing up. Guess that's the kind of spirit needed for Armenia.

What you have behind you in that photo is the real thing and it provides everything you need if you round up some gear. Rather than rush that process by simply bolting rock that doesn't need it, consider slowing down and going through the process of learning.

Hopefully it's a large sport area because the rock doesn't lend itself to trad climbing - the rock in question in this thread requires no bolting outside of an occasional anchor. What the world doesn't need is "heros" going around bolting rock that doesn't need it. That's exactly the type of spirit Armenia doesn't need - if anything, what this area needs is some trad climbers to go lend a hand with a bit of teaching.

Why isn't this discussion about what the people need instead of what the rock needs?

healyje, I'd say bolting or not bolting is sort of a religious issue, that is discussed controversially especially in Europe.

Still I think it's worth considering all the factors involved:

- bmxer talked about introducing sport climbing in armenia.

as t-dog mentioned, sport (bolted routes) is a lot more affordable for the individual climber than trad

- the financial aspects are especially important for climbers in countries where many people have other problems than which cam they will buy next. Still they should be able to climb, right?

Why isn't this discussion about what the people need instead of what the rock needs? Isn't it (mostly) still possible to do trad on a bolted route, simply by ignoring the bolts?

Some problems w/ me trad clmbing is I'd have to trust me gear alot and any route I start I wouldnt' know what grade it is. I heard people say they can climb 5.12 sport and 5.9 trad, so I'd have to pick my route carefully.

*Just from an economics standpoint, a well protected 80' sport route will set you back ~ $50 - $100 bucks... EACH. 10 clip up routes alone would fund a nice rack up to the task of THOUSANDS of routes.*

Often in Europe the local gov. ponies up the cost of opening new areas, and/or the equipers are renumerated through guidebook sales.

Dingus, the crags pictured in the thread look a lot like the basalt crags around Sonora and Mammoth. How far off the ground would you get free climbing on trad gear at Jailhouse?

Dingus, the crags pictured in the thread look a lot like the basalt crags around Sonora and Mammoth. How far off the ground would you get free climbing on trad gear at Jailhouse?

Again, with all due respect, if you look at the pictures I posted, this stuff is what I am my compatriots climb day in, day out on around here - the rock he posted pictures of is exactly the same stuff and will go free on gear no problem at all. There's no need for government involvement - what's really at issue here is just one climber that needs to dig down deep, trust himself, and take advantage of the opportunity of a lifetime...

How can you say that? The exact same rock? Have you been to this crag? It might take gear, it might just crumble away. I've seen similar looking crags to this that I wouldn't bother climbing trad or sport due to the crap nature of the rock. If you point is that the area should be explored as a trad area than I agree. The lines look like they could be fairly good. Then again the rock might be of a quality where bolts afford any protection. Then again, it just may be crap altogether. Obviously, others have seen similar rock and have found it lacking for trad. This area needs a little more exploration before making a blanket judgement on what can be done there.

Actually, I have climbed a diversity of columnar rock areas over decades of climbing to know exactly what I'm looking at. The area doensn't need "a little more exploration" before saying that; what it needs is for bmxer to simply start exploring himself on all this fabulous rock. And when he runs into a bad section, he'll know it. And given the way columnar rock works when it's bad, bolts won't make it any better as you point out.

I'm trying to keep an open mind about the situation in another part of the world, but
:troll: keeps popping into my head.

Just guessing here, but those columns look a lot like basalt flows. As in Devils Tower. Maybe one should consider the trad lines before Mr. Bosch and Mr. Hilti visit town.