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dookie
Jul 21, 2005, 4:29 PM
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In reply to: I give exactly as much respect as I recieve. Read the thread - I was prefectly civil to both hanger and seabee until they started up with their armchair quarterback s---.
Crock-o-shit.
I've read the thread dave, and you were a dick to seabee the second he said he'd been over there. Calling you on the fact that you HAVEN'T been there so you might want to listen to some folks who have. He wasn't being disrespectful to you, yet you served it to him in armloads.
I might not give you the respect you say you give (laughable) but I'll give you some pity. Most definately needed. And deserved.
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tradman
Jul 21, 2005, 4:31 PM
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Good job you're here to defend these big tough guys, or they'd have to defend themselves, huh?
Well thanks for the sympathy anyway, it's very sweet of you.
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hangerlessbolt
Jul 21, 2005, 4:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You haven't the slightest clue who you're talking to... do you?!? Nope. I don't actually care either. You're possibly expecting me to be intimidated by your use of military jargon, or perhaps like dookie expect me to kiss your ass just because you were in the army. You're out of luck on both counts, and you were wrong about me, and wrong about what I've seen.
No ass kissing expected or requested for that matter.
I'm not going to continue engaging in a witless flamewar with you sweetheart...well, not at the moment at any rate
Catch ya on the flipside brutha
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tradman
Jul 21, 2005, 4:34 PM
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Yup, see you after.
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dookie
Jul 21, 2005, 5:08 PM
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In reply to: Good job you're here to defend these big tough guys, or they'd have to defend themselves, huh?
Nope, I just call your bullshit when I smell it. Or see it. Or hear it.
These big boys can take care of themselves, I'm not defending them per se, but rathering calling you out because from time to time, it needs to be done Dave. Your hyprocracy is disgusting.
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shakylegs
Jul 21, 2005, 5:20 PM
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Women who defend me are hott.
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thorne
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Jul 21, 2005, 5:33 PM
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Hangerless wrote:
In reply to: Because all children need a father figure for guidance Hey Traddie... "Who's your daddy"
To which tradman replied:
In reply to: Not a weiner like you, hangerless. What, are you here to "call s---" on my life again are you? Tell us hangerless, what were you doing for africa in the 80s? Watching Live Aid on your television and demanding that something be done about this terrible situation? Or were you actually there running medical supplies and aid documents around the country with me and mine? Did you go to your fridge and get a nice cold drink after you pledged your $1 by phone, or were you with me packing up to move schoolchildren before the next wave of shelling came down? Maybe you were there. Maybe you do know what it smells like. I f---ing doubt it. But I don't accuse you of being a liar and an armchair quarterback you spineless little s---.
Definitely NOT a good example of Newton's Third Law of Motion.
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blondgecko
Moderator
Jul 22, 2005, 2:47 AM
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In reply to: Definitely NOT a good example of Newton's Third Law of Motion.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I'll have to remember that one!
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cracknut
Jul 22, 2005, 3:20 PM
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In reply to: I have the ability to split domes from 500 yards sans scope
Your mother must be proud
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dingus
Jul 22, 2005, 3:52 PM
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In reply to: Women who defend me are hott.
Up on Cripple Creek
She sends me
If I spring a leak
She mends me
I don't have to speak
She defends me
A drunkard's dream
If I ever did see one...
DMT
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hangerlessbolt
Jul 22, 2005, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I have the ability to split domes from 500 yards sans scope Your mother must be proud
She never knew
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crotch
Jul 22, 2005, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: Being that the US seems to be so universally hated, I believe that we should lock down our borders, deport everyone w/ a Green card, cancel all Visas, expell the UN and all dignitaries, relinquish all foreign aid, recall 100% of our military forces, halt international air traffic into the US and our territories, and let the rest of the world fend for themselves.... Something tells me that this would not be very popular w/ the rest of the world! 8^)
Isolationism would work very well for an economy that imports more than it exports, and is dependent on foreign oil. Do you really think our economy would be fine if we became an "island"?
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dondiego
Jul 25, 2005, 2:10 AM
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Wow, this thread has really gotten out of hand and off topic. Back to the basics:
Yes, we have been responsible for civilian deaths. I don't think anybody in the current administration or the military would dispute that.
No, we don't target innocent civilians, also something that would not be disputed by those two groups (especially the military ones)
Statistics all come from someone somewhere and most have an agenda to push (not unlike many people on this site) and if you don't believe that, you really are an idiot. Not to mention that given enough time, one can find stats supporting even the most absurd arguement on the wonderful world of internet.
The previous regime killed a lot of innocent people, we have killed less. The previous regime killed very few bad people (and in fact were bad people) and we have killed more.
While the WMD debate will continue forever (he had plenty of time to give a lot of stuff away as well as bury it) the fact that they had used NBC in events in the past as well as every intel source that we relay on saying that he was developing it again seemed to be the right thing to do at the time. Presidents are just men and are not perfect. They rely on advice from advisors.
Clinton lied to the nation and so has every president since Washington. Newsflash, Presidents lie! Most Americans not only don't want the truth about what it takes to secure a free and democratic nation, they can't handle it. We spill a lot of blood that nobody ever knows about to prevent things from happening on our soil.
American soldiers, sailors, arimen, and marines are also human. During armed conflict, things happen that aren't right. During this particular conflict, a very small fraction of crimes/attrocities/violations/mistakes/whatever... have been committed in relation to all former wars/conflicts. We are doing pretty good considering who we are facing and that nobody reports the good, only the bad.
Yes, my statements are simple and not backed up with stupid websites that probably aren't right anyway, but that doesn't make them any less true than what has been kicked out already on this thread. Oh, and I do respect people who have lived and served through past traumatic times, but the WWII vet didn't understand what the Vietnam vet felt and experienced anymore than anyone understands what the current US Soldier experiences and feels. Yes, you do have to have been there if only to get a perspective on the good that is being accomplished versus the bad that is also happening.
-DD-
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newbierockstar
Jul 25, 2005, 2:38 AM
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Very well put, Don... :righton: ...I think your post was one of the most insightful I've ever read on this site.
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bmxer
Jul 25, 2005, 8:55 AM
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Saddam was a bad guy and its' good hes' gone, but that's not "why" Bush invaded, it was corporate/political/economic interests that are benefecial not for the American people, but for the corporations that profit from such business. Oil, contracts, changing politics around world. Pissing "terrorists" off so that Bush and Blair have more excuses for militirizng the police and taking away normal rights like not having your phone line tapped for no reason, or the CIA seeing what you borrow at the library (think "patriot" act) {good philosophy question; If you're against the patriot act, are you no longer patriotic?}
Basically giving more power to the gov't which in turn enriches those who want to get richer. Makes the people think there aren't more important problems in the world. The dam Egypt bombing has been on CNN for 4 days in a row now, and they say the same exact thing, over and over and over again. I want to see better news, like what this congressman said to that congressman. I want an entire hour of avg people being interviewed on the streets. I want to see Arnold in his office telling us what he plans on doing tomarrow.
But the point is we're in Iraq now, because saddam was a threat to us isnt' exactly why Bush invaded, but it's a dam good excuse. Pretty much all that's left is to see how this is going to end.
The American Army aren't bad guys, their good, young men. Sure there's a cruel person thrown in there every onceinawhile. but their in the army and their following orders.
What's happening is the world is globalizing and certain powerful figures are playing their cards right so they end up on top. "The people" are expendeble in their eyes. Just like in Rome, keep it on down low so people don't outright get pissed and riot. Or else, feed them crumbs to keep them pacified while we do whatever we want.
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thorne
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Jul 25, 2005, 12:38 PM
Post #91 of 146
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In reply to: Saddam was a bad guy and its' good hes' gone, but that's not "why" Bush invaded, it was corporate/political/economic interests that are benefecial not for the American people, but for the corporations that profit from such business. Oil, contracts, changing politics around world. Pissing "terrorists" off so that Bush and Blair have more excuses for militirizng the police and taking away normal rights like not having your phone line tapped for no reason, or the CIA seeing what you borrow at the library (think "patriot" act) {good philosophy question; If you're against the patriot act, are you no longer patriotic?}
Let me guess... you're pursuing a double major - English and Political Science.
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taualum23
Jul 25, 2005, 12:54 PM
Post #92 of 146
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In reply to: In reply to: Saddam was a bad guy and its' good hes' gone, but that's not "why" Bush invaded, it was corporate/political/economic interests that are benefecial not for the American people, but for the corporations that profit from such business. Oil, contracts, changing politics around world. Pissing "terrorists" off so that Bush and Blair have more excuses for militirizng the police and taking away normal rights like not having your phone line tapped for no reason, or the CIA seeing what you borrow at the library (think "patriot" act) {good philosophy question; If you're against the patriot act, are you no longer patriotic?} Let me guess... you're pursuing a double major - English and Political Science.
Just because I agree with a lot of what the kid says doens't make that any less funny, Thorne. :wink:
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bmxer
Jul 25, 2005, 6:57 PM
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No psychology; thanx for considering my views.
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thorne
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Jul 25, 2005, 7:32 PM
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Please tell me more about... In reply to: CIA seeing what you borrow at the library (think "patriot" act) |
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uberdb
Jul 25, 2005, 9:04 PM
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I love that somehow the "oil" thing always comes up. We are (corporations, as well as individuals) buying our oil from the same places as before the war at even higher prices - It's not like we started pulling tankers up to the pipeline and started filling them. What oil are we getting out of this ?
- DB
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dondiego
Jul 26, 2005, 2:28 AM
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The oil thing is probably one of the worst arguements anyone can try to make. The day we start getting any of the money back that we have spent making that country free, I will eat my freaking hat. I had to argue with Iraqis that we weren't trying to take their oil, and then after coming home, I have to argue with Americans that we aren't trying to take the Iraqi oil. There could be a million reasons that we went to Iraq that I am not privy to, but oil isn't one of them. Seen the gas prices lately? As was so elegently put by the honorable gentleman from TN, we aren't pulling tankers up to the pipeline and filling them up. Trying to secure the pipelines to prevent the "innocent" insurgents from blowing them up has proven to be one of the more dangerous tasks that soldiers and contractors are assigned to do.
Oh, and in reality, if the corporations are making money off of this, it does in turn help out the economy. Those same corporations hire folks to work those contracts and someone somewhere is spending all of that money that they are pulling in. Sounds ok to me. Heck, a lot of small businesses should be happy about this, Wal-Mart has yet to set up a store there and they are the root of all evil if you ask a lot of people on this site :lol:
-DD-
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karlbaba
Jul 26, 2005, 7:13 AM
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In reply to: I love that somehow the "oil" thing always comes up. We are (corporations, as well as individuals) buying our oil from the same places as before the war at even higher prices - It's not like we started pulling tankers up to the pipeline and started filling them. What oil are we getting out of this ? - DB
The point isn't to just steal oil now, it's more complicated than that.
The biggest reason the US economy can borrow hundreds of billions every year is because world oil sales are almost exclusively denominated in US dollars. It's complicated, but if the world switched to buying oil with Euros, our economy would go down hard in flames. Saddam was threatening to sell oil for Euros. Every other country that has tended that way has also been threatened with intervention. Invading Iraq made the point about the price of rebellion.
Dollar economics primer:
http://www.museletter.com/archive/149.html
Sometime it's even in our interest to let the oil prices rise. It keep developing nations from buying too much and hasten it's depletion, and the more the world spends on oil, the more dollars they need to do it.
Oil is about to peak and get more expensive. The US wants to be sitting on the second largest reserves when oil gets tight. We want to make sure that Iraq oil will head to the US. Right now places like Iran are making deals with China for oil supply.
Last but not least, due to the inevitability of ever higher and higher oil prices, Iraq is destined to be one of the richest and most powerful countries in the world. They were no immediate threat. The war was based on lies, but someday, some superpower was going to make Iraq it's bitch, and we wanted it to be the US. Alternately, Iraq would be destined to be a little too powerful for our comfort zone.
Soldiers can certainly add a perspective from having been there, but soldiers are taught to obey, not to critiically analyze the politics and economics of the situation. Folks say "support our troops" to indicate that we should support the war, but the soldiers don't get to decide when they come home, and rotting in a quagmire year after year away from their families is hardly being supported.
Peace
and, oh yeah
YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF ASSHOLES!!!!!!
not really, that was a pre-emptive flame. If I keep posting on this thread, and I don't expect to, I might get flamed, but at least I got off the first shot. I'm counting on a quick withdrawal from posting on this thread after being greeted with flowers and cheers.
;-)
Karl
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thorne
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:21 PM
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Karl,
You should be ashamed of yourself... offering up all this nonsense in a way that young impressionable minds will accept as gospel truth. Then sometime in the near future, they'll be called on this silliness.
Their defense - "This guy in a climbing forum said so. Nooooo. You don't understand. He knows what he's talking about."
"Sure thing kid. :roll:"
Talk about embarassing. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
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karlbaba
Jul 26, 2005, 2:45 PM
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In reply to: Karl, You should be ashamed of yourself... offering up all this nonsense in a way that young impressionable minds will accept as gospel truth. Then sometime in the near future, they'll be called on this silliness. Their defense - "This guy in a climbing forum said so. Nooooo. You don't understand. He knows what he's talking about." "Sure thing kid. :roll:" Talk about embarassing. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
I'm sure that would be WAY more embarassing than if those impressionable minds were to go around saying "We went in to stop the immediate threat of an attack with Weopons of Mass Destruction. I saw the president himself on TV say "We found em'" He knows what he is talking about."
But still, it looks like you debunked all my points with your post. :roll: For folks who want to read more on oil and economics, and that doesn't entirely agree wiith what I've posted above, can check out
http://www.ocnus.net/...archive=70&num=18372
FYI My post above was only meant to cover the oil aspects of the Iraq invasion. There are plenty of other reasons but you can bet that if Iraq didn't have oil we probably wouldn't have invaded, and even if we did, we wouldn't still be there.
Peace
Karl
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thorne
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Jul 26, 2005, 3:01 PM
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In reply to: But still, it looks like you debunked all my points with your post. :roll:
Your post had a whole lot of conjecture about future, that is currently just as defensable as it is unprovable.
As far as looking at the present, this little nugget gave me a chuckle: In reply to: It's complicated, but if the world switched to buying oil with Euros, our economy would go down hard in flames. Saddam was threatening to sell oil for Euros. Every other country that has tended that way has also been threatened with intervention. Invading Iraq made the point about the price of rebellion.
Are you familiar with arbitrage?
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