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alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces
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beesty511


Jul 29, 2005, 4:31 PM
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alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces
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Hi,

I saw a hitch published somewhere (maybe in Climbing magazine?), which was an alternative to using clove hitches to oppose two pieces in a vertical crack. As I remember, it involved clipping into the lower piece with a sling, and then somehow wrapping the sling around a biner clipped into the upper piece. Can anyone direct me to the issue or an online resource that pictures the method?

Thanks.


frawg


Jul 29, 2005, 6:14 PM
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just use a clove hitch??? What's wrong with the clove hitch????????


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Jul 31, 2005, 8:01 AM
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In reply to:
just use a clove hitch??? What's wrong with the clove hitch????????

Yeah! :D


dirtyleaf


Jul 31, 2005, 12:17 PM
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use a clove hitch or a bungee cord


kobaz


Jul 31, 2005, 9:39 PM
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bungie cord?


mcfoley


Jul 31, 2005, 9:54 PM
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yes use a clove hitch... faster than any other option ... and just as bomber.


crackboy


Aug 1, 2005, 4:32 PM
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the hitch you are refering to is you clip the sling through one biner run it upinto the other piece and go through the other biner without clipping through the sling towards the rock and then come back out in bewteen the sling towards you. this will lock the two piece in.

originally saw it in one of the rock craft books, i haven't used it myself since i always forget how to do it.

essentially a quick and dirty method for 'equializing' a piece.

though i mentione this to someone else and i think they though it wasn't really equalized, so its more of an opposing piece kin of thing to keep one in the right position.


caughtinside


Aug 1, 2005, 5:03 PM
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In reply to:
the hitch you are refering to is you clip the sling through one biner run it upinto the other piece and go through the other biner without clipping through the sling towards the rock and then come back out in bewteen the sling towards you. this will lock the two piece in.

Do you mean you thread the sling, between the two strands of the sling going up to the biner? Just trying to be clear. :?


texplorer


Aug 3, 2005, 10:13 AM
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I have climbed for 5 years, done bigwalls, climbed ice, alpine, sport, and trad and have never had to use anything more than the figure eight, double fishermans, and clove hitch. LET IT GO MAN. . . you don't need to know this!


wyjames


Aug 4, 2005, 7:32 PM
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In reply to:
the hitch you are refering to is you clip the sling through one biner run it upinto the other piece and go through the other biner without clipping through the sling towards the rock and then come back out in bewteen the sling towards you. this will lock the two piece in.

originally saw it in one of the rock craft books, i haven't used it myself since i always forget how to do it.

essentially a quick and dirty method for 'equializing' a piece.

though i mentione this to someone else and i think they though it wasn't really equalized, so its more of an opposing piece kin of thing to keep one in the right position.

Ya what he said- I think.

I clip a double shoulder length sling to the lower biner, then run the entire sling through the upper biner ( not clipping it ) , continue to pass the entire sling back through itself (back towards the rock), then run the entire sling back through the upper biner again. Damn this is confusing to try to explain. When you pull down on the sling it tightens the wrap at the upper biner and holds the pieces in place. Then clip your rope ( or whatever) to the remaining end of the sling.

I use this for opposing pieces for several reasons. Most notable you can actually do it with one hand while you are climbing (everyone will tell you then can do girth hitches on lead with one hand, but try it... not easy). Second you can actually get some good tension on the 2 pieces ( again everyone will tell you they get plenty of tension from girth hitches, but try both and compare-you may be surprised). Also you get an easy and obvious point to clip in at which is essentially multi-directional.

Viola- I like it and while Texplorer is right you don't " need to know it" I find learning new tricks and techniques really improves my speed and efficiency. If you are just learning and the basics are not ingrained then I can see the argument to not crowd you mind with a million tricks.

Texplorer , I am surprised you have never used a Munter in all that.


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Aug 4, 2005, 9:32 PM
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anyone have a diagram or weblink they can provide for this hitch? Perhaps even just the name of it? i'm curious to see what it looks like, as the descriptions presented thus far are fairly confusing.
As already mentioned, it's probably not necessary to know, but I like learning new knots. I think it's always worth keeping up on new techniques. Knowledge is power! Huzzah!


davelwang


Aug 5, 2005, 10:49 AM
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I think what he is referring to a locking girth hitch? I have seen it demonstrated once but I personally have never used it, and for the life of me I cannot figure out how to make the girth hitch "lock"

Dave


brokenarmboy19


Aug 5, 2005, 11:36 AM
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In reply to:
I think what he is referring to a locking girth hitch? I have seen it demonstrated once but I personally have never used it, and for the life of me I cannot figure out how to make the girth hitch "lock"

Dave


Isn't a locking girth hitch a prusek


imnotclever


Aug 5, 2005, 11:43 AM
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Is it a Mariner's Hitch: http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Mariners.htm

Also click on the link at the bottom of the page.

I'd still use a clove.


Partner j_ung


Aug 5, 2005, 11:53 AM
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In reply to:
I clip a double shoulder length sling to the lower biner, then run the entire sling through the upper biner ( not clipping it ) , continue to pass the entire sling back through itself (back towards the rock), then run the entire sling back through the upper biner again. Damn this is confusing to try to explain. When you pull down on the sling it tightens the wrap at the upper biner and holds the pieces in place. Then clip your rope ( or whatever) to the remaining end of the sling.

Got it, thanks. Does this method also work in non-vertical placements? How well does it hold tension when jostled about by rope drag?


Partner j_ung


Aug 5, 2005, 11:57 AM
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In reply to:
Is it a Mariner's Hitch: http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Mariners.htm

Also click on the link at the bottom of the page.

I'd still use a clove.

I'm pretty sure (not 100%) that it isn't a mariner's.


phile


Aug 5, 2005, 12:18 PM
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so you're wrapping the sling around the upper biner after passing it through itself? The way I'm picturing it, it doesn't seem like there'd be enough friction to reliably keep tension on the 2 pieces?


jude


Aug 11, 2005, 8:48 PM
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Locking Girth Hitch

I had a question about it earlier, and got the typical response.

With a sling with one end clipped in, thread a bight of the same sling through another 'biner. Thread the bight between the strands and through the 'biner again and back down. Tighten it. If you rig it correctly, the lower wraps will lock off the upper wrap.

I'll try to get you a picture. It's in one of "The Mountaineers" Books.


nobody


Aug 11, 2005, 10:23 PM
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In reply to:
I have climbed for 5 years, done bigwalls, climbed ice, alpine, sport, and trad and have never had to use anything more than the figure eight, double fishermans, and clove hitch. LET IT GO MAN. . . you don't need to know this!

:shock: WOW! Have you really been climbing for FIVE whole years?!














:roll:


toejam


Aug 12, 2005, 2:58 AM
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I read about this use of the girth in a book put out by Climbing Magazing: Rock - Tools and Technique. The example was a tensioning of two horizontal placements. Personally, I tend to use clove hitches for horizontal placements and the girth on vertical placements, or any placement when I'm in a hurry. It does loosen up easier than the cloves.

edit: whoops meant tension not equalize


golsen


Aug 12, 2005, 3:27 AM
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In reply to:
I have climbed for 5 years, done bigwalls, climbed ice, alpine, sport, and trad and have never had to use anything more than the figure eight, double fishermans, and clove hitch. LET IT GO MAN. . . you don't need to know this!

I agree with you tex, and I have been doing it about 30 years. Frankly, there are some things these days that seem way to freakin complicated. Learn a few things and learn them well. This kind of thing looks good on paper and then what use it once every couple years? My memory sucks and by the time I need to use it again I will have forgotten...


gat


Aug 12, 2005, 5:36 AM
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I love the clove hitch. However, this is something I can see being very useful.

I picture this scenario: need/want a multi-directional and have two passive pro placements in a vertical/horizontal crack. One or both placements would benefit from being held in place by tension. I only have one hand to use. Tying a clove in a runner with one hand while trying not to take a ride in this situation is VERY difficult at best (at least for me).


Partner abe_ascends


Aug 15, 2005, 9:26 PM
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I think I found a link to this elusive hitch... someone (perhaps the OP) can tell me whether this is it. http://www.layhands.com/...#AdjustableGripHitch
Oh, I noticed in the linked page that it says the hitch slides under the force of a fall. Assuming this is the hitch the OP was referring to, I'm wondering if this would affect the effectiveness of the pro. I can't picture how the sliding forces would affect the pro, but I keep wondering if it would loosen or melt under the force of a fall. Any comments?

Edited cuz I forgot to attach the URL the first time :oops:


toejam


Aug 16, 2005, 12:07 AM
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No it is a girth hitch. My gear is downstairs in the garage, but I'll try to remember to take pic of one and post it.


squish


Aug 16, 2005, 12:27 AM
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In reply to:
I think I found a link to this elusive hitch... someone (perhaps the OP) can tell me whether this is it. http://www.layhands.com/...#AdjustableGripHitch

No, you won't find the hitch you're looking for on that page. Because the hitch in question needs to pass through the sling itself, you can't do that with a single strand of rope as shown in each illustration (except for the pile hitch, which is the only one tied on a bight, but that's not the one either).

Essentially, it's a girth hitch around the top biner, followed by an extra wrap of the top biner, but looping in the opposite direction (half way around the spine, and through).

I haven't used it, but I seem to remember the article. It does sound like it's more adjustable, but probably not as sturdy as a clove, which would still be fine for many on-lead EQ situations.


waltereo


Aug 16, 2005, 6:41 AM
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[quote="j_ung"][quote="imnotclever"]Is it a Mariner's Hitch: http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Mariners.htm

Also click on the link at the bottom of the page.

I'd still use a clove.
I'm pretty sure (not 100%) that it isn't a mariner's.
That's the mariner knot ... 100% sure 8^)


crackboy


Aug 16, 2005, 1:57 PM
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j_ung. i would probably only use that hitch in a vertical orientation since it seems it would use gravity to its favor.

so yea i clip the bottom biner run it up to the top biner and go through it (think tripling your sling) and you could probabaly wrap it around the biner again, but the illustration i saw was to just put the sling through itself similar to a girth hitch. and cinch down.

just picturing the rope movement i would think clipping the bottom biner instead of the top biner would prevent the rope movement from loosening the hitch.


toejam


Aug 16, 2005, 3:47 PM
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I uploaded a demo of it here: Locking Girth Hitch. It may not show up for you folks until it is approved though.

On vertical placements I also tend to start from the bottom piece, and put the girth on the upper, mainly because the runner holds the bottom piece in place while you girth the runner to the upper piece.


Partner j_ung


Aug 16, 2005, 3:57 PM
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In reply to:
I uploaded a demo of it here: Locking Girth Hitch. It may not show up for you folks until it is approved though.

On vertical placements I also tend to start from the bottom piece, and put the girth on the upper, mainly because the runner holds the bottom piece in place while you girth the runner to the upper piece.

Sweet, thanks. Love the cams in the rock rings -- bomber!

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=59523


squish


Aug 16, 2005, 10:55 PM
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In reply to:
I uploaded a demo of it here: Locking Girth Hitch.

Thanks, but the sequence isn't very clear between steps 2 and 3. If you just pass the sling through and pull down, as the photos seem to show, it's an ordinary girth hitch and not a locking one.

My understanding was: from step 2, the biner that's in your hand needs to pass through the gear biner again to make the hitch "lock." The second pass goes through the biner in the opposite direction as the first time, kind of similar to a munter hitch.

From your photo description:

In reply to:
The runner goes from the biner of the first piece, through the biner of the second, around and through the runner, and again through the biner of the second piece. Pull tight, clip and go.

Or am I confused? I'll have to try this when I get home, but it sounds like your description gives the same result as mine. It looks like the hitch would flip around (like munteresque knots tend to do) and end up being the same thing.

In reply to:
That's the mariner knot ... 100% sure 8^)

Would you put money on that? A mariner knot is something quite different!


toejam


Aug 17, 2005, 10:24 AM
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I added an arrow which hopefully makes it a bit clearer. I also looked it up in the book from which I learned it: Rock - Tools and Technique by Michaeel Benge & Duane Raleigh. The demonstrated technique is indeed to make both passes through the second piece's carabiner in the same direction.

On the other hand, making the second pass through the second pieces carabiner from the opposite direction does add a bit of friction to the girth, and also results in a cleaner hitch, which can be directed more easily to the strong part of the carabiner. I am hesitant to recommend it, without recommendation by a more knowledgeable authority than myself, but I'll play around with it a bit more, and more than likely start tying it that way. Thanks for the tip!

Another thing that occurs while playing around with this: My usual practice of placing the girth on the upper piece is probably not the optimum, since failure of the lower piece would be more likely to shockload the placement than if the girth were placed on the lower piece.


stabla


Aug 17, 2005, 10:56 AM
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clove hitches are aaaammmaaazzingg why would you need anything else?


phlsphr


Aug 17, 2005, 11:04 AM
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The knot in question (locking girth hitch) is very clearly photographed in Climbing: From Gym to Crag by S. Peter Lewis and Dan Cauthorn on page 123. I use it all the time--very simple and fast--unlike some of the knots illustrated in this thread. Just clip or thread the entire sling through the biner, back between the two sides of the sling, and then back through the biner again. Very fast, very easy.


Partner coldclimb


Aug 17, 2005, 11:28 AM
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I tried this knot out in my official knot testing rig (read: bedroom pullup bar) and was unable to get it to lock. Is anyone else concerned about the theoretical 2:1 pull ratio placed on the top piece, assuming zero friction from the webbing. Of course it's not going to actually be 2:1 WITH friction, but if the webbing isn't stuck like a clove hitch, the force will be multiplied pulling downward on the top piece. Simple slackline mechanics really. ;)

But then of course I've never used it, I'm merely an internet second-guesser. It's worth a thought though, eh? ;)


squish


Aug 17, 2005, 12:02 PM
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In reply to:
I tried this knot out in my official knot testing rig (read: bedroom pullup bar) and was unable to get it to lock. Is anyone else concerned about the theoretical 2:1 pull ratio placed on the top piece, assuming zero friction from the webbing. Of course it's not going to actually be 2:1 WITH friction, but if the webbing isn't stuck like a clove hitch, the force will be multiplied pulling downward on the top piece. Simple slackline mechanics really. ;)

But then of course I've never used it, I'm merely an internet second-guesser. It's worth a thought though, eh? ;)

"Eh?" What're you, Canadian?

I just tried the setup that I suggested might be the real slim shady, as well as toejam's which I now think is the right "locking girth hitch."

My setup would invert to load sling-on-sling, which is NFG in my book.

The locking girth hitch doesn't lock worth a damn.

Coldclimb brings up an important point. Any sling which loops through a higher piece and creates a pulley is not "equalization" since it creates more force. In those situations you're likely using the lower piece as a directional, just to keep the upper "main" piece in place. In that case, tie off with a clove—don't create more force by having a 2:1 pulley in there. This applies to horizontal EQ as well.

When tying the pieces "in-line" vertically for equalization, the locking girth hitch will slip, probably won't hold its share on the lower piece, and create a shockload if the upper piece fails.

So, clove hitches, bitches.


Partner j_ung


Aug 17, 2005, 12:10 PM
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In reply to:
I tried this knot out in my official knot testing rig (read: bedroom pullup bar) and was unable to get it to lock. Is anyone else concerned about the theoretical 2:1 pull ratio placed on the top piece, assuming zero friction from the webbing. Of course it's not going to actually be 2:1 WITH friction, but if the webbing isn't stuck like a clove hitch, the force will be multiplied pulling downward on the top piece. Simple slackline mechanics really. ;)

But then of course I've never used it, I'm merely an internet second-guesser. It's worth a thought though, eh? ;)

I suppose if the hitch won't lock... :lol:


phlsphr


Aug 17, 2005, 12:41 PM
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Re: alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I tried this knot out in my official knot testing rig (read: bedroom pullup bar) and was unable to get it to lock. Is anyone else concerned about the theoretical 2:1 pull ratio placed on the top piece, assuming zero friction from the webbing. Of course it's not going to actually be 2:1 WITH friction, but if the webbing isn't stuck like a clove hitch, the force will be multiplied pulling downward on the top piece. Simple slackline mechanics really. ;)

But then of course I've never used it, I'm merely an internet second-guesser. It's worth a thought though, eh? ;)

I suppose if the hitch won't lock... :lol:

I have to admit you've got me really thinking (and, indeed, hanging on various set-ups on my climbing wall). Clearly there is a pulley effect, but clearly also there is a LOT of friction. I'd really be interested to see someone test this to see just how much the force is multiplied here. Not to second guess a second guesser, but it seems to me that the fact that the force is multiplied is somewhat counterbalanced (excuse the pun) by the fact that the pulley effect is pulling the pro tighter in the desired direction (which is why you put the pieces in opposition to begin with in the first place) So there is more force on the piece, but, as a result, the piece is pulling in a direction where, depending on the case, it might be much much stronger. Right?


off_center


Aug 17, 2005, 5:11 PM
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By combining toe-jams picture with his follow-up

In reply to:
The demonstrated technique is indeed to make both passes through the second piece's carabiner in the same direction.

I was able to get the desired result. It seemed to work relatively well and I think I would prefer tying this to tying a girth, especially at an uncomfortable stance.

My only concern is that if the thing isn't damn tight once it's set up, the way that the girth hitch tightens around the biner through which it is passed could cause the sling to tighten around the gate and open it up. In other words, it looks like you could end up opening up one of your carabiners if you don't pull the set-up tight enough.

(edited because I thought a little more about what I said before)


off_center


Aug 17, 2005, 5:18 PM
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I wouldn't think that the pulley effect would be any greater than that found in a similar set-up with a clove hitch - the clove still allows the thing to tighten in one direction but not in the other. But then, I managed to get plenty of friction when I set it up.


squish


Aug 17, 2005, 6:57 PM
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In reply to:
I wouldn't think that the pulley effect would be any greater than that found in a similar set-up with a clove hitch - the clove still allows the thing to tighten in one direction but not in the other. But then, I managed to get plenty of friction when I set it up.

Snugged up, a clove hitch won't move in either direction... No pulley effect... Whatchatalkinbout?


dirtineye


Aug 17, 2005, 8:22 PM
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This thread should take a trip to the dumpster.

Learn to use a fecking clove hitch.


toejam


Aug 22, 2005, 12:12 AM
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Hey Dirt, thanks for that butter in Josh!

I can tie a clove hitch with one hand using two different methods, but I'll be damned if I can tension opposing pieces with one hand with any reasonable efficiency using dual clove hitches. Can you?

Used the girth this weekend in Tuolumne. Perfect weather and no crowds. Sigh...back to virtual climbing.


dirtineye


Aug 22, 2005, 5:48 AM
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In reply to:
Hey Dirt, thanks for that butter in Josh!

I can tie a clove hitch with one hand using two different methods, but I'll be damned if I can tension opposing pieces with one hand with any reasonable efficiency using dual clove hitches. Can you?

Used the girth this weekend in Tuolumne. Perfect weather and no crowds. Sigh...back to virtual climbing.

Well, every time I've needed a clove, I've been able to get it in. Sometimes it's a pain in the butt, but that's OK.

IF by efficiency you mean speed, it is not a fast thing to do sometimes, possibly involving a little resting and even some down climbing. But when security is what counts, I'n not really interested in eficiency or speed, just a solid piece, and it takes what it takes to get one.

That being said, I don't know what ways you are tying your one handed cloves, but it is possible to do it and get tension.

IF it meant life or death, I think I would just use both hands and then re-establish myself on the wall, or downclimb to a no hands rest and continue from there, before I'd trust that other thing.

That locking girth hitch in your pic is more of a bizarre two wrap prussik with a loop in the middle and on the ends, if that makes any sense. I wonder if one more wrap would be better or worse?

Oh yeah, about that butter, man, we had a 4 inch thick FoaM PAD that we could not ship from the airport and had to leave behind. At 62 x 42, it fit perfectly in a SD meteor light tent and probably a lot of others as well. I wish we had left that for you, hahaha.


david.yount
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Sep 16, 2005, 3:58 AM
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Locking Girth Hitch

I wanted to present this concept in a more organized fashion, with a new thread, making it more accessible, rather than buried 3 pages deep, following dozens of posts, most rather confusing.

Thanks for this discussion.

david yount.


Partner rgold


Sep 16, 2005, 11:25 AM
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I find the locking girth hitch to be unreliable, especially in the new "dental floss" Mammut runners. It doesn't even hold full tension long enough to get an extra half hitch in when I try it with thin webbing.

Back in the day before cams, every gunks climber had some one-handed trick for tensioning opposing pieces in horizontal cracks. My method is perhaps slightly more awkward than the locking girth hitch, but way more reliable and comes with no pulley effect.

I just uploaded photos of how to do it and will post them in a separate thread when they are approved. Check it out if you like rope tricks.


mcfoley


Sep 17, 2005, 10:52 AM
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f that use a CH


david.yount
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Sep 17, 2005, 4:37 PM
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I find the locking girth hitch to be unreliable, especially in the new "dental floss" Mammut runners. It doesn't even hold full tension long enough to get an extra half hitch in when I try it with thin webbing.

My only experience has been with Mammut 8mm spectra/dyneema slings, "dental floss." I have a few slings just a few months old, but the remainder are several years old. Using old or new "dental floss" I find the LGH holds tension very well. I hung an 11-lb rope in a rope bag from my basement ceiling 2 days ago. The hanging rope bag and rope are still being held by the LGH. Everytime I go by the setup I give the hanging bag a push to make it swing. The LGH (which I quckly tied with one hand) is still holding the swinging weight.

I also set up the same rigging with 1-inch webbing. The LGH in full size webbing presents incredible holding power.

david yount.


dirtineye


Sep 17, 2005, 4:50 PM
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I recentlydemonstrated the one handed clove hitch, tied with tension, to another RC.com member, Saxfiend.

It is not that big of a deal to do.

I can't wait to see what rgold posts along the lines of a one handed clove, it must be very similar if not the same as what I do.


saxfiend


Sep 17, 2005, 6:43 PM
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In reply to:
I recentlydemonstrated the one handed clove hitch, tied with tension, to another RC.com member, Saxfiend.

It is not that big of a deal to do.
True, not that big a deal, or time consuming for that matter. Like so many other things in climbing (tying in, etc.), it just takes a little practice to be able to do it without having to think about it.

Thanks for the tip, by the way!

JL


Partner rgold


Sep 17, 2005, 8:02 PM
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In reply to:
Using old or new "dental floss" I find the LGH holds tension very well. I hung an 11-lb rope in a rope bag from my basement ceiling 2 days ago. The hanging rope bag and rope are still be held by the LGH.

I never tried it with an 11 lb weight. I tried it as a way to tension two placements, and it consistently slipped. Maybe hanging a weight on it makes it hold better, but that isn't how I'd be using it. If you guys can make it work for placements, that's cool, but it's a new trick this old dog ain't gonna learn.

I can tie and tension a clove hitch one-handed, but it is a lot more awkward than the method I'll be posting as soon as the photos are approved. They've been up for about a day and a half now, but are still pending. Perhaps all that twisted webbing is too racy for the rc.com censors. More likely, they have actual lives that don't include immediately reviewing every idiot image someone uploads. Just hope no one out there is hangin' by one hand waitin' for instructions on A Better Way.

And no, Dirt, it isn't a clove hitch.

Don't get me wrong, this is little more than a party trick now that opposed nuts in a horizontal are a historical curiosity. I haven't had occasion to use it for years, and those who heap scorn on such tricks have ample justification for their derision.

And yet, once in a while the ability to lock down a placement while hanging on by one hand can be handy. If the occasion arises, I think my solution from back in the day is better than the so-called locking girth hitch.

After it comes on line, y'all can try it, flame my butt, and stick to your old-fashioned clove hitches or new-fangled "locking" girths. The world will go on, much as before.


toejam


Sep 17, 2005, 10:10 PM
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One handed cloves are easy, tensioning two of them is the trick. If you have an efficient method I'm very interested. I don't think opposing nuts in a horizontal crack are obsolete, I climbed a traverse a while back where that was the only thing I could place, cams just weren't working. I generally use dual cloves on horizontals though.

I use the LGH more as David described, to tension an upward directional in a vertical crack. I haven't had any problem with them loosening up from rope movement using Black Diamond sewn spectra runners. I try not to fall much on trad though, so the ability to prevent a zipper is relatively untested by me.

Awaiting your photos with interest rgold.


david.yount
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Sep 18, 2005, 2:07 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Using old or new "dental floss" I find the LGH holds tension very well. I hung an 11-lb rope in a rope bag from my basement ceiling 2 days ago. The hanging rope bag and rope are still being held by the LGH.

I never tried it with an 11 lb weight. I tried it as a way to tension two placements, and it consistently slipped. Maybe hanging a weight on it makes it hold better, but that isn't how I'd be using it.

I've been using the LGH to tension oppositional pieces for several years and my experience is satisfactory. I have not experienced slipping, once I've adequately set the hitch.

I believe that any hitch or knot or bend must be dressed and set before it's ready to be employed for use. After tieing the LGH, I pull on the free end of the tension sling toward the other placement. This firm pull develops tension in the sling and it sets the hitch. Once there is tension in the sling the hitch provisionally locks. If adequate tension is not developed in the sling then the hitch will not properly set and so it will not lock.

The 11-lb weight still swings in my basement, from 8mm spectra LGH. I rigged this experiment on the fly, just to see, in one case, how the hitch might last when subjected to significant perturbation over significant time. I would offer when I use the LGH while climbing, the tension developed in the sling is about 11-lbs, probably less, but perhaps more and so I quickly rigged a load to approximate that.

But I would encourage a finishing half-hitch, and that will permanently lock the tension between the oppositional pieces. Perhaps consider the LGH as a provisional lock only enroute to the crowning touch of the finishing half-hitch. The LGH works somewhat similar to a Garda Hitch which is a fine way to provisionally arrest an ascending load, but I would not trust the Garda Hitch to maintain a load. To maintain an arrested load I would employ an additional rigging.

david yount.


dirtineye


Sep 18, 2005, 5:22 AM
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About the ease of a one handed clove hitch under tension, I guess I will just have to get hold of a digital camera and make some pics myself.

Or, continue converting the unbelievers one lost soul at a time.

I really don't think tensioning a one handed clove was an awkward task, but some dexterity is required.

IF you are bad with knots or all thumbs (see Crimpergirl thumb pic on super Tacos) then this might be difficult, but Mr. Saxfiend is fairly new to trad and he thought it was simple to learn. But then he IS a sailor and so is comfortable with knots.

Rgold, some people still oppose pieces often, all is not lost! I'm eagerly awaiting your solution.


mcfoley


Sep 18, 2005, 5:47 AM
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In reply to:
.....The locking girth hitch doesn't lock worth a damn....
....So, clove hitches, bitches.

yeah what he said


toejam


Sep 18, 2005, 1:03 PM
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The thing about the LGH is that pulling on the free end serves to tighten it, not loosen, so there is no way in heck that the constant 11 lb weight is going to loosen it. I guess a more realistic test would be to tie your dog to it and leave him for the afternoon, and see if it comes loose. :lol:


david.yount
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Sep 18, 2005, 5:02 PM
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In reply to:
The thing about the LGH is that pulling on the free end serves to tighten it, not loosen, so there is no way in heck that the constant 11 lb weight is going to loosen it.
Sorry for any confusion, the 11-lb weight is not attached to the free end.


In reply to:
I would offer when I use the LGH while climbing, the tension developed in the sling is about 11-lb, probably less, but perhaps more and so I quickly rigged a load to approximate that.
I used the 11-lb to hang from the low end of the sling, it is simulating the lower placement and the tension I would develop in the sling as I pulled firmly on the free end of the sling.


In reply to:
The hanging rope bag and rope are still being held by the LGH. Everytime I go by the setup I give the hanging bag a push to make it swing. The LGH (which I quckly tied with one hand) is still holding the swinging weight.
The hitch is holding the 11-lb weight of the rope, the rope is the load on the hitch. The 11-lb weight is not attached to the free end of the tension sling, nothing is attached to the free end, and there is no finishing half-hitch either. The free end is free.

Each time I walk by the setup, I push the hanging weight to see if this perturbation might upset the "lock" of the hitch. This perturbation in no way simulates what might be experienced by the LGH while climbing. The LGH would receive no upsetting forces from the lower piece. My casual rigging introduces perturbing forces that are significant and would never be experienced by the LGH while climbing.

I was not studying the LGH response to a reasonable external force. I was studying something virtually moot to the intended use of the LGH. I just wanted to see how the "lock" might be upset from increased forces introduced to the tensioned sling.

A test to simulate real use might hang a weight on the hitch, then introduce movement to the free end of the sling.

david yount.


Partner climbinginchico


Sep 18, 2005, 7:01 PM
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The LGH works great. I just taught my girlfriend how to do that yesterday and demonstrated it on the first piece of the route we were climbing. Held just fine with my year old 8mm Mammut runners. She said it didn't loosen at all when I climbed, and the tension developed by them made the top piece set well. It was the first time she's ever had to really use the nut tool to remove a stopper I've placed. And it didn't slip, even with no load on the free (rope end) as I didn't fall on it.

I love it for a first piece off a belay. Easy and it saves me cams for later.


Partner rgold


Sep 20, 2005, 8:05 PM
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OK, the knot photos finally made it past the rc.com Guardians of Moral Rectitude.

I posted them here.


Partner rgold


Sep 20, 2005, 8:07 PM
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OK, the knot photos finally made it past the Guardians of Moral Rectitude.

I posted them here


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