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alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces
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waltereo


Aug 16, 2005, 6:41 AM
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[quote="j_ung"][quote="imnotclever"]Is it a Mariner's Hitch: http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Mariners.htm

Also click on the link at the bottom of the page.

I'd still use a clove.
I'm pretty sure (not 100%) that it isn't a mariner's.
That's the mariner knot ... 100% sure 8^)


crackboy


Aug 16, 2005, 1:57 PM
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j_ung. i would probably only use that hitch in a vertical orientation since it seems it would use gravity to its favor.

so yea i clip the bottom biner run it up to the top biner and go through it (think tripling your sling) and you could probabaly wrap it around the biner again, but the illustration i saw was to just put the sling through itself similar to a girth hitch. and cinch down.

just picturing the rope movement i would think clipping the bottom biner instead of the top biner would prevent the rope movement from loosening the hitch.


toejam


Aug 16, 2005, 3:47 PM
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I uploaded a demo of it here: Locking Girth Hitch. It may not show up for you folks until it is approved though.

On vertical placements I also tend to start from the bottom piece, and put the girth on the upper, mainly because the runner holds the bottom piece in place while you girth the runner to the upper piece.


Partner j_ung


Aug 16, 2005, 3:57 PM
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In reply to:
I uploaded a demo of it here: Locking Girth Hitch. It may not show up for you folks until it is approved though.

On vertical placements I also tend to start from the bottom piece, and put the girth on the upper, mainly because the runner holds the bottom piece in place while you girth the runner to the upper piece.

Sweet, thanks. Love the cams in the rock rings -- bomber!

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=59523


squish


Aug 16, 2005, 10:55 PM
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In reply to:
I uploaded a demo of it here: Locking Girth Hitch.

Thanks, but the sequence isn't very clear between steps 2 and 3. If you just pass the sling through and pull down, as the photos seem to show, it's an ordinary girth hitch and not a locking one.

My understanding was: from step 2, the biner that's in your hand needs to pass through the gear biner again to make the hitch "lock." The second pass goes through the biner in the opposite direction as the first time, kind of similar to a munter hitch.

From your photo description:

In reply to:
The runner goes from the biner of the first piece, through the biner of the second, around and through the runner, and again through the biner of the second piece. Pull tight, clip and go.

Or am I confused? I'll have to try this when I get home, but it sounds like your description gives the same result as mine. It looks like the hitch would flip around (like munteresque knots tend to do) and end up being the same thing.

In reply to:
That's the mariner knot ... 100% sure 8^)

Would you put money on that? A mariner knot is something quite different!


toejam


Aug 17, 2005, 10:24 AM
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I added an arrow which hopefully makes it a bit clearer. I also looked it up in the book from which I learned it: Rock - Tools and Technique by Michaeel Benge & Duane Raleigh. The demonstrated technique is indeed to make both passes through the second piece's carabiner in the same direction.

On the other hand, making the second pass through the second pieces carabiner from the opposite direction does add a bit of friction to the girth, and also results in a cleaner hitch, which can be directed more easily to the strong part of the carabiner. I am hesitant to recommend it, without recommendation by a more knowledgeable authority than myself, but I'll play around with it a bit more, and more than likely start tying it that way. Thanks for the tip!

Another thing that occurs while playing around with this: My usual practice of placing the girth on the upper piece is probably not the optimum, since failure of the lower piece would be more likely to shockload the placement than if the girth were placed on the lower piece.


stabla


Aug 17, 2005, 10:56 AM
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clove hitches are aaaammmaaazzingg why would you need anything else?


phlsphr


Aug 17, 2005, 11:04 AM
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The knot in question (locking girth hitch) is very clearly photographed in Climbing: From Gym to Crag by S. Peter Lewis and Dan Cauthorn on page 123. I use it all the time--very simple and fast--unlike some of the knots illustrated in this thread. Just clip or thread the entire sling through the biner, back between the two sides of the sling, and then back through the biner again. Very fast, very easy.


Partner coldclimb


Aug 17, 2005, 11:28 AM
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I tried this knot out in my official knot testing rig (read: bedroom pullup bar) and was unable to get it to lock. Is anyone else concerned about the theoretical 2:1 pull ratio placed on the top piece, assuming zero friction from the webbing. Of course it's not going to actually be 2:1 WITH friction, but if the webbing isn't stuck like a clove hitch, the force will be multiplied pulling downward on the top piece. Simple slackline mechanics really. ;)

But then of course I've never used it, I'm merely an internet second-guesser. It's worth a thought though, eh? ;)


squish


Aug 17, 2005, 12:02 PM
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In reply to:
I tried this knot out in my official knot testing rig (read: bedroom pullup bar) and was unable to get it to lock. Is anyone else concerned about the theoretical 2:1 pull ratio placed on the top piece, assuming zero friction from the webbing. Of course it's not going to actually be 2:1 WITH friction, but if the webbing isn't stuck like a clove hitch, the force will be multiplied pulling downward on the top piece. Simple slackline mechanics really. ;)

But then of course I've never used it, I'm merely an internet second-guesser. It's worth a thought though, eh? ;)

"Eh?" What're you, Canadian?

I just tried the setup that I suggested might be the real slim shady, as well as toejam's which I now think is the right "locking girth hitch."

My setup would invert to load sling-on-sling, which is NFG in my book.

The locking girth hitch doesn't lock worth a damn.

Coldclimb brings up an important point. Any sling which loops through a higher piece and creates a pulley is not "equalization" since it creates more force. In those situations you're likely using the lower piece as a directional, just to keep the upper "main" piece in place. In that case, tie off with a clove—don't create more force by having a 2:1 pulley in there. This applies to horizontal EQ as well.

When tying the pieces "in-line" vertically for equalization, the locking girth hitch will slip, probably won't hold its share on the lower piece, and create a shockload if the upper piece fails.

So, clove hitches, bitches.


Partner j_ung


Aug 17, 2005, 12:10 PM
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In reply to:
I tried this knot out in my official knot testing rig (read: bedroom pullup bar) and was unable to get it to lock. Is anyone else concerned about the theoretical 2:1 pull ratio placed on the top piece, assuming zero friction from the webbing. Of course it's not going to actually be 2:1 WITH friction, but if the webbing isn't stuck like a clove hitch, the force will be multiplied pulling downward on the top piece. Simple slackline mechanics really. ;)

But then of course I've never used it, I'm merely an internet second-guesser. It's worth a thought though, eh? ;)

I suppose if the hitch won't lock... :lol:


phlsphr


Aug 17, 2005, 12:41 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I tried this knot out in my official knot testing rig (read: bedroom pullup bar) and was unable to get it to lock. Is anyone else concerned about the theoretical 2:1 pull ratio placed on the top piece, assuming zero friction from the webbing. Of course it's not going to actually be 2:1 WITH friction, but if the webbing isn't stuck like a clove hitch, the force will be multiplied pulling downward on the top piece. Simple slackline mechanics really. ;)

But then of course I've never used it, I'm merely an internet second-guesser. It's worth a thought though, eh? ;)

I suppose if the hitch won't lock... :lol:

I have to admit you've got me really thinking (and, indeed, hanging on various set-ups on my climbing wall). Clearly there is a pulley effect, but clearly also there is a LOT of friction. I'd really be interested to see someone test this to see just how much the force is multiplied here. Not to second guess a second guesser, but it seems to me that the fact that the force is multiplied is somewhat counterbalanced (excuse the pun) by the fact that the pulley effect is pulling the pro tighter in the desired direction (which is why you put the pieces in opposition to begin with in the first place) So there is more force on the piece, but, as a result, the piece is pulling in a direction where, depending on the case, it might be much much stronger. Right?


off_center


Aug 17, 2005, 5:11 PM
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By combining toe-jams picture with his follow-up

In reply to:
The demonstrated technique is indeed to make both passes through the second piece's carabiner in the same direction.

I was able to get the desired result. It seemed to work relatively well and I think I would prefer tying this to tying a girth, especially at an uncomfortable stance.

My only concern is that if the thing isn't damn tight once it's set up, the way that the girth hitch tightens around the biner through which it is passed could cause the sling to tighten around the gate and open it up. In other words, it looks like you could end up opening up one of your carabiners if you don't pull the set-up tight enough.

(edited because I thought a little more about what I said before)


off_center


Aug 17, 2005, 5:18 PM
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I wouldn't think that the pulley effect would be any greater than that found in a similar set-up with a clove hitch - the clove still allows the thing to tighten in one direction but not in the other. But then, I managed to get plenty of friction when I set it up.


squish


Aug 17, 2005, 6:57 PM
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In reply to:
I wouldn't think that the pulley effect would be any greater than that found in a similar set-up with a clove hitch - the clove still allows the thing to tighten in one direction but not in the other. But then, I managed to get plenty of friction when I set it up.

Snugged up, a clove hitch won't move in either direction... No pulley effect... Whatchatalkinbout?


dirtineye


Aug 17, 2005, 8:22 PM
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This thread should take a trip to the dumpster.

Learn to use a fecking clove hitch.


toejam


Aug 22, 2005, 12:12 AM
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Hey Dirt, thanks for that butter in Josh!

I can tie a clove hitch with one hand using two different methods, but I'll be damned if I can tension opposing pieces with one hand with any reasonable efficiency using dual clove hitches. Can you?

Used the girth this weekend in Tuolumne. Perfect weather and no crowds. Sigh...back to virtual climbing.


dirtineye


Aug 22, 2005, 5:48 AM
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In reply to:
Hey Dirt, thanks for that butter in Josh!

I can tie a clove hitch with one hand using two different methods, but I'll be damned if I can tension opposing pieces with one hand with any reasonable efficiency using dual clove hitches. Can you?

Used the girth this weekend in Tuolumne. Perfect weather and no crowds. Sigh...back to virtual climbing.

Well, every time I've needed a clove, I've been able to get it in. Sometimes it's a pain in the butt, but that's OK.

IF by efficiency you mean speed, it is not a fast thing to do sometimes, possibly involving a little resting and even some down climbing. But when security is what counts, I'n not really interested in eficiency or speed, just a solid piece, and it takes what it takes to get one.

That being said, I don't know what ways you are tying your one handed cloves, but it is possible to do it and get tension.

IF it meant life or death, I think I would just use both hands and then re-establish myself on the wall, or downclimb to a no hands rest and continue from there, before I'd trust that other thing.

That locking girth hitch in your pic is more of a bizarre two wrap prussik with a loop in the middle and on the ends, if that makes any sense. I wonder if one more wrap would be better or worse?

Oh yeah, about that butter, man, we had a 4 inch thick FoaM PAD that we could not ship from the airport and had to leave behind. At 62 x 42, it fit perfectly in a SD meteor light tent and probably a lot of others as well. I wish we had left that for you, hahaha.


david.yount
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Sep 16, 2005, 3:58 AM
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Locking Girth Hitch

I wanted to present this concept in a more organized fashion, with a new thread, making it more accessible, rather than buried 3 pages deep, following dozens of posts, most rather confusing.

Thanks for this discussion.

david yount.


Partner rgold


Sep 16, 2005, 11:25 AM
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I find the locking girth hitch to be unreliable, especially in the new "dental floss" Mammut runners. It doesn't even hold full tension long enough to get an extra half hitch in when I try it with thin webbing.

Back in the day before cams, every gunks climber had some one-handed trick for tensioning opposing pieces in horizontal cracks. My method is perhaps slightly more awkward than the locking girth hitch, but way more reliable and comes with no pulley effect.

I just uploaded photos of how to do it and will post them in a separate thread when they are approved. Check it out if you like rope tricks.


mcfoley


Sep 17, 2005, 10:52 AM
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f that use a CH


david.yount
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Sep 17, 2005, 4:37 PM
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In reply to:
I find the locking girth hitch to be unreliable, especially in the new "dental floss" Mammut runners. It doesn't even hold full tension long enough to get an extra half hitch in when I try it with thin webbing.

My only experience has been with Mammut 8mm spectra/dyneema slings, "dental floss." I have a few slings just a few months old, but the remainder are several years old. Using old or new "dental floss" I find the LGH holds tension very well. I hung an 11-lb rope in a rope bag from my basement ceiling 2 days ago. The hanging rope bag and rope are still being held by the LGH. Everytime I go by the setup I give the hanging bag a push to make it swing. The LGH (which I quckly tied with one hand) is still holding the swinging weight.

I also set up the same rigging with 1-inch webbing. The LGH in full size webbing presents incredible holding power.

david yount.


dirtineye


Sep 17, 2005, 4:50 PM
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I recentlydemonstrated the one handed clove hitch, tied with tension, to another RC.com member, Saxfiend.

It is not that big of a deal to do.

I can't wait to see what rgold posts along the lines of a one handed clove, it must be very similar if not the same as what I do.


saxfiend


Sep 17, 2005, 6:43 PM
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In reply to:
I recentlydemonstrated the one handed clove hitch, tied with tension, to another RC.com member, Saxfiend.

It is not that big of a deal to do.
True, not that big a deal, or time consuming for that matter. Like so many other things in climbing (tying in, etc.), it just takes a little practice to be able to do it without having to think about it.

Thanks for the tip, by the way!

JL


Partner rgold


Sep 17, 2005, 8:02 PM
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In reply to:
Using old or new "dental floss" I find the LGH holds tension very well. I hung an 11-lb rope in a rope bag from my basement ceiling 2 days ago. The hanging rope bag and rope are still be held by the LGH.

I never tried it with an 11 lb weight. I tried it as a way to tension two placements, and it consistently slipped. Maybe hanging a weight on it makes it hold better, but that isn't how I'd be using it. If you guys can make it work for placements, that's cool, but it's a new trick this old dog ain't gonna learn.

I can tie and tension a clove hitch one-handed, but it is a lot more awkward than the method I'll be posting as soon as the photos are approved. They've been up for about a day and a half now, but are still pending. Perhaps all that twisted webbing is too racy for the rc.com censors. More likely, they have actual lives that don't include immediately reviewing every idiot image someone uploads. Just hope no one out there is hangin' by one hand waitin' for instructions on A Better Way.

And no, Dirt, it isn't a clove hitch.

Don't get me wrong, this is little more than a party trick now that opposed nuts in a horizontal are a historical curiosity. I haven't had occasion to use it for years, and those who heap scorn on such tricks have ample justification for their derision.

And yet, once in a while the ability to lock down a placement while hanging on by one hand can be handy. If the occasion arises, I think my solution from back in the day is better than the so-called locking girth hitch.

After it comes on line, y'all can try it, flame my butt, and stick to your old-fashioned clove hitches or new-fangled "locking" girths. The world will go on, much as before.

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