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alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces
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toejam


Sep 17, 2005, 10:10 PM
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Re: alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces [In reply to]
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One handed cloves are easy, tensioning two of them is the trick. If you have an efficient method I'm very interested. I don't think opposing nuts in a horizontal crack are obsolete, I climbed a traverse a while back where that was the only thing I could place, cams just weren't working. I generally use dual cloves on horizontals though.

I use the LGH more as David described, to tension an upward directional in a vertical crack. I haven't had any problem with them loosening up from rope movement using Black Diamond sewn spectra runners. I try not to fall much on trad though, so the ability to prevent a zipper is relatively untested by me.

Awaiting your photos with interest rgold.


david.yount
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Sep 18, 2005, 2:07 AM
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Re: alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Using old or new "dental floss" I find the LGH holds tension very well. I hung an 11-lb rope in a rope bag from my basement ceiling 2 days ago. The hanging rope bag and rope are still being held by the LGH.

I never tried it with an 11 lb weight. I tried it as a way to tension two placements, and it consistently slipped. Maybe hanging a weight on it makes it hold better, but that isn't how I'd be using it.

I've been using the LGH to tension oppositional pieces for several years and my experience is satisfactory. I have not experienced slipping, once I've adequately set the hitch.

I believe that any hitch or knot or bend must be dressed and set before it's ready to be employed for use. After tieing the LGH, I pull on the free end of the tension sling toward the other placement. This firm pull develops tension in the sling and it sets the hitch. Once there is tension in the sling the hitch provisionally locks. If adequate tension is not developed in the sling then the hitch will not properly set and so it will not lock.

The 11-lb weight still swings in my basement, from 8mm spectra LGH. I rigged this experiment on the fly, just to see, in one case, how the hitch might last when subjected to significant perturbation over significant time. I would offer when I use the LGH while climbing, the tension developed in the sling is about 11-lbs, probably less, but perhaps more and so I quickly rigged a load to approximate that.

But I would encourage a finishing half-hitch, and that will permanently lock the tension between the oppositional pieces. Perhaps consider the LGH as a provisional lock only enroute to the crowning touch of the finishing half-hitch. The LGH works somewhat similar to a Garda Hitch which is a fine way to provisionally arrest an ascending load, but I would not trust the Garda Hitch to maintain a load. To maintain an arrested load I would employ an additional rigging.

david yount.


dirtineye


Sep 18, 2005, 5:22 AM
Post #53 of 59 (7134 views)
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Re: alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces [In reply to]
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About the ease of a one handed clove hitch under tension, I guess I will just have to get hold of a digital camera and make some pics myself.

Or, continue converting the unbelievers one lost soul at a time.

I really don't think tensioning a one handed clove was an awkward task, but some dexterity is required.

IF you are bad with knots or all thumbs (see Crimpergirl thumb pic on super Tacos) then this might be difficult, but Mr. Saxfiend is fairly new to trad and he thought it was simple to learn. But then he IS a sailor and so is comfortable with knots.

Rgold, some people still oppose pieces often, all is not lost! I'm eagerly awaiting your solution.


mcfoley


Sep 18, 2005, 5:47 AM
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Re: alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces [In reply to]
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.....The locking girth hitch doesn't lock worth a damn....
....So, clove hitches, bitches.

yeah what he said


toejam


Sep 18, 2005, 1:03 PM
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Re: alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces [In reply to]
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The thing about the LGH is that pulling on the free end serves to tighten it, not loosen, so there is no way in heck that the constant 11 lb weight is going to loosen it. I guess a more realistic test would be to tie your dog to it and leave him for the afternoon, and see if it comes loose. :lol:


david.yount
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Sep 18, 2005, 5:02 PM
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Re: alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces [In reply to]
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In reply to:
The thing about the LGH is that pulling on the free end serves to tighten it, not loosen, so there is no way in heck that the constant 11 lb weight is going to loosen it.
Sorry for any confusion, the 11-lb weight is not attached to the free end.


In reply to:
I would offer when I use the LGH while climbing, the tension developed in the sling is about 11-lb, probably less, but perhaps more and so I quickly rigged a load to approximate that.
I used the 11-lb to hang from the low end of the sling, it is simulating the lower placement and the tension I would develop in the sling as I pulled firmly on the free end of the sling.


In reply to:
The hanging rope bag and rope are still being held by the LGH. Everytime I go by the setup I give the hanging bag a push to make it swing. The LGH (which I quckly tied with one hand) is still holding the swinging weight.
The hitch is holding the 11-lb weight of the rope, the rope is the load on the hitch. The 11-lb weight is not attached to the free end of the tension sling, nothing is attached to the free end, and there is no finishing half-hitch either. The free end is free.

Each time I walk by the setup, I push the hanging weight to see if this perturbation might upset the "lock" of the hitch. This perturbation in no way simulates what might be experienced by the LGH while climbing. The LGH would receive no upsetting forces from the lower piece. My casual rigging introduces perturbing forces that are significant and would never be experienced by the LGH while climbing.

I was not studying the LGH response to a reasonable external force. I was studying something virtually moot to the intended use of the LGH. I just wanted to see how the "lock" might be upset from increased forces introduced to the tensioned sling.

A test to simulate real use might hang a weight on the hitch, then introduce movement to the free end of the sling.

david yount.


Partner climbinginchico


Sep 18, 2005, 7:01 PM
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Re: alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces [In reply to]
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The LGH works great. I just taught my girlfriend how to do that yesterday and demonstrated it on the first piece of the route we were climbing. Held just fine with my year old 8mm Mammut runners. She said it didn't loosen at all when I climbed, and the tension developed by them made the top piece set well. It was the first time she's ever had to really use the nut tool to remove a stopper I've placed. And it didn't slip, even with no load on the free (rope end) as I didn't fall on it.

I love it for a first piece off a belay. Easy and it saves me cams for later.


Partner rgold


Sep 20, 2005, 8:05 PM
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Re: alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces [In reply to]
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OK, the knot photos finally made it past the rc.com Guardians of Moral Rectitude.

I posted them here.


Partner rgold


Sep 20, 2005, 8:07 PM
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Re: alternative to clove hitches for opposing pieces [In reply to]
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OK, the knot photos finally made it past the Guardians of Moral Rectitude.

I posted them here

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