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sparky
Jul 20, 2002, 11:55 PM
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getting ready to take up my first pig, any tips?
[ This Message was edited by: sparky on 2002-08-07 18:35 ]
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krustyklimber
Jul 21, 2002, 1:53 AM
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Read through this forum... look for the "chongo's 2;1 ratchet" and the "far end hauler" threads.
Jeff
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apollodorus
Jul 21, 2002, 2:21 AM
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Bonatti Kong Block. It's got a bigger wheel and is stronger than most hauling pulleys. The integral jumar cam locks in the open position, and you can load and unload the rope without unclipping it from the anchors.
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hollyclimber
Jul 23, 2002, 12:30 AM
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Is this it?
What's the retail?
Kong Block Roll.
[ This Message was edited by: hollyclimber on 2002-08-04 09:09 ]
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smithclimber
Aug 1, 2002, 7:38 AM
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Yeah Holly, that's it. I HIGHLY recommend you check out the Petzl Protraxion. It does everything the Kong will, and then a few extra things. I have one and swear by it. Check em both out before you buy one.
Cheers
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apollodorus
Aug 1, 2002, 9:17 AM
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The ProTraxion looks like a great pulley. But, the rated working load is only 560 lbs (each side of the rope). This may seem like a lot, but when you get two guys counter-weighting a big bag and it's getting stuck under roofs, 560 is nothing.
The Kong Block pulley is rated for 3300 lbs, and the integral cam at 1100. This isn't quite enough for most rescue work, but is plenty strong for wall climbing.
So, I guess the thing here is that for serious, long wall climbs with multiple heavy pigs, the Kong Block or other heavy-duty wall pulley is going to be better. For a typical wall, the lighter weight and features of the ProTraxion probably make it the better choice.
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justsendingits
Aug 1, 2002, 7:28 PM
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Check out the thread on the Petzl warning for the Pro trax and the mini.--There has to be some basis for them to put a warning on the front page of there web site.
Also,I was told by 2 climbing shops(Yosemite mountain shope)that the Pro and the mini are no longer available.
R
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hollyclimber
Aug 4, 2002, 4:16 PM
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I have a mini traxion and it works fine for me, but I have to take another look at the warnings to make sure I know what the issues. I know there is also some discussion here, if anyone is curious.
hgb
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passthepitonspete
Aug 5, 2002, 9:22 PM
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Dr. Piton's
1:1 Hauling Tips
[The Championship Pig Wrestling Series]
Eight hundred feet up the mighty Southwest Face of El Capitan, a cry of frustration rang out from above.
"*@#$*!! I simply can't budge this pig!"
"Shut up and haul," was my practised reply, as I looked to remove the next piece of gear from the crack. Oh, there it was, fifty feet above me - Tom had "crack jumared" nearly the whole damn pitch on his giant homemade cams.
Meanwhile, the pigs hung next to me, silent and unmoving.
"I can't move it! It's just TOO HEAVY!"
I could hear the anger mounting in the Big Wall Theorist's voice.
Clearly, I thought, this was the fault of the operateur.
"You pussy!" I shouted up, "I'm twenty pounds lighter than you, and I've been 1:1 hauling those damn things for two freakin' days all by myself! If you think they're heavy today, you should have felt them yesterday....."
"And my hips are killing me!"
That did it. I exploded.
"Of course your hips hurt! They're supposed to hurt, you wanker! This is a Big Wall - it ain't no weinie roast!"
Sheesh.
"Shut up and wait," I sighed. "I'll be up in a minute....."
I pulled the rope through the Grigri on my harness, and advanced to the next placement far above me.
If you would like to see a photo of the very place this little episode occured, then please click here.
Note: When I finished cleaning the pitch, I hopped on the end of the haul line, and the two of us space hauled together. This is a normal thing to do on the wall, but it is far more efficient for the leader to be able to haul the pigs by himself while the seconder cleans the pitch. This way, no time is wasted, and the leader can take off on lead as soon as the seconder arrives, or even sooner if you are leading in blocks and the leader is prepared to take off solo.
It has often been said, "Climbing big valls is just a different kind of suffering." And nowhere is this truism more self-evident than while you are hauling.
Sure, you can set up a 2:1 Hauling Ratchet, and indeed you probably have been doing this already, but there eventually comes a time on every wall when you just get fed up with the 2:1, and you want to haul a bit faster using a 1:1.
Now intuitively, you might think that effective 1:1 hauling is merely a question of blood, sweat and tears, but nothing could be further from the truth! As you can see from the exchange above, this is not always enough.
Fortunately, there is a Better Way.
There is always a Better Way!
The purpose of this article is to teach you the Better Way to haul your pig up the wall, and to offer you a few Dr. Piton Big Wall Tips to assist you in your Championship Pig Wrestling.
This way you can keep the ship moving at all times, without having to wait for the seconder to arrive at the belay to assist in the hauling.
I wrote the rough notes for this post while on the wall and drinking my coffee here. I wanted to make sure I covered every detail.
So like, c'mon eh?
Hauling may be bad, but it doesn't have to be that bad!
Remember, I'm tremendously lazy. If it were that bad, do you think I'd climb big walls?
Sheesh.
Getting Set Up
The first thing you need to do is to figure out where you should set up your Compound Pulley.
[Note: When I speak of a "compound pulley", I mean your 1:1 hauling device that consists of a pulley and cam assembly, like a Wall Hauler or a Traxion.]
The best compound pulley by far is the Kong Block Roll, which hottieclimber has linked above.
Chances are, you will be standing on a ledge. While this tends to be comfortable, it is not necessarily the best scenario for hauling, since the haul line will run against the ledge, thus creating unwanted and much-hated friction in your hauling system.
In order to minimize this friction where the rope touches the front of the ledge, you must reduce the angle at which the rope bends across the ledge. The less bend in the rope, the less friction you must fight. This you achieve by setting up your haul device as high as you possibly can!
This is not always easy - frequently anchor bolts are placed by people who were not drilling on their tippy-toes, and you will find the anchor too low. Also, if you have a really heavy sow and/or poor anchors, then you will have to equalize anchors with slings or a cordalette, thus dropping your hauling point even farther.
If there is a big honkin' 3/8" bolt, then you may wish to hang your compound pulley directly from that in order to keep it as high as possible. Make sure you back it up with a sling to other anchors, and that there is no slack in the backup slings.
And don't put the compound pulley directly into the bolt - use a transient carabiner to maintain an extra degree of freedom.
Duh.
You never put anything directly through your anchor bolt, except the carabiner that you intend to leave there. This should either be a locker, or a D-carabiner [not an oval!] whose history you are sure of. There must be no question in your mind that your anchor carabiners are bomber.
The next thing you need to do is to eliminate clusterf*ckage. Tidy up your slings and daisies so you're not tripping all over them. Make sure your haul line bag is conveniently located at the "downstream" side of your compound pulley. Make sure everything is out of the way and that your work area is unobstructed.
You will be switching ends on the haul line on each and every pitch. Therefore you must have TWO rope protectors for each haul line, a rope protector being a two-litre pop bottle with only the bottom cut out [leave].
The benefits of switching ends on your haul line with each haul are twofold - firstly you depreciate your haul line equally at both ends, and secondly your rope is pre-stacked and ready to go.
If you are soloing, then you need only one rope bag per haul line.
But if you are climbing with a partner, then you will require *TWO* rope bags per haul line.
Make sure you have enough rope bags, as they are the key to clusterf*ck management!
You don't need anything fancy-shmancy for a rope bag, either. Just about any sturdy bag will do - you can sew on a clip-in loop on one side.
Take your bag and a piece of webbing to the shoe repairman in the mall. If you are an outdoor adventurer, he should be one of your best friends who will always cut you a deal because you bring him so much business making and repairing all your stuff!
Positioning Your Body
If there is not too much friction from the rope rubbing across the ledge, then you will be able to haul while you are standing on the belay ledge. In this case, you will be hauling with your Grigri. Make sure you have your Grigri mounted on your harness.
Do NOT haul with a jug!
Your Grigri is a far superior device to use since it allows you to put slack into the haul line even while you are weighting it. You will find out just how important this is when it is time to dock your pig.
Plus the Grigri is much more comfortable to operate - you can pull the haul line up through the Grigri easier than you can pull the haul line down through your jug.
The next thing you must do is,
TIE YOURSELF IN LONG!
I cannot emphasize how fundamental this is to proper hauling! If you are not tied in long, then you will hose yourself. Give yourself a break - if you are able to stand on the ledge then five or even ten feet of slack is what you should be using!
Do NOT rely on your haul line as your means of staying alive! Use a separate backup.
Generally speaking, you will tie yourself in long using the excess lead rope. If your pitch was a full ropelength and you do not have enough lead rope left over, you will have to tie yourself in using something else like your daisies, aiders and/or slings. But the lead rope is always best since it is the least clusterf*cked.
If the rope running across the ledge beneath you creates too much friction for you to be able to haul while you are standing on the ledge, then it is time to GET SERIOUS.
I will talk below about hauling when ledge friction is a problem.
For now, let's assume you have a decent ledge to stand on, and that your haul line does not rub against the outside of the ledge very badly.
Steel Your Resolve
Look, before you even start hauling, let's get something straight here, K?
This is going to hurt.
And it's going to hurt a lot.
You should expect your kidneys to be crushed, and your waist to become abraded!
If you are up here in some woosy-assed sport climbing harness that slices your body into ribbons, it's your own damn fault. Should you find yourself in this situation, you may deservedly imagine the mocking voice of Dr. Piton saying,
"I told you so."
If you are on a big wall, you must expect to suffer.
You must steel your mind.
SHUT UP AND HAUL.
Hauling From A Ledge
OK, you're on a vell-organicized ledge, and the clusterf*ckage has been minimized. Your co-efficient of wank is under control, and approaches zero.
It's now time to haul that damn PIG! Get your Grigri onto the haul line.
There are a few tricks and techniques that you can use to make your 1:1 hauling easier:
You must put your feet above your head! Yes, this is terrifying when you're thousands of feet in space! Get used to it. You haul with your legs, not with your arms. Get used to turning upside down and pushing down with your legs.
Make darn sure the waist belt is well-tightened on your harness!
Grab the tight part of the haul line beneath you with either your hands or a jug, and pull upwards and pull outwards with your hands as you push downwards with feet.
This effectively gives you a 2:1 mechanical advantage. Pulling outwards reduces friction where the haul line or even the pig rubs against the wall.
Use efficient body motion and make an efficient stroke. Make sure you are moving your body in the right direction!
Sometimes, you might want to haul by pushing your knees against the wall. When kneeling, you can also put the palm of one hand against the wall and lever off of it, too. Try different variations, like one hand pulling up on the haul line while the other hand pushes down against the wall.
Have a pullup bar or pullup sling handy so you can pull yourself back up. Don't use just your arms - make sure you press down on the ledge with your feet when you stand back up to make another stroke.
Stack the haul line into a haul line bag as you haul. Flaking your rope on a sling is for Big Wall Theorists, and begs a clusterf*ck.
Maintain complete control over your haul line at all times! You must NEVER allow your haul line to blow in the wind [where it could hang up on a flake fifty feet horizontally away, and then what would you do?!], and you must NEVER allow your haul line to dangle beneath your pigs where it is certain to tangle in your Catch Lines. This is not Big Wall Prophecy - this is Big Wall Fact.
Get MAD at it, dammit! Use some frickin' muscle! Heave up on that rope for all you're worth! This is no time for half-measures! Grunt and groan and show that pig who's boss!
Hauling From Beneath A Ledge
When ledge friction is a problem because the haul line rubs against the ledge, then it is time to GET SERIOUS.
You must get your lard ass below the ledge.
The first thing you must do is to tie yourself in WAY LONG with fifteen or twenty feet of slack.
Yeah, that's right - get BELOW the ledge! It's the only way you can overcome the friction.
This may not be an altogether pleasant sensation when you are dangling two thousand feet off the deck!
I never said it would be comfortable, for cryin' out loud.
Sheesh.
Get used to it! You are the idiot who chose to be here!
After tying yourself in long, put your Grigri onto the haul line, and rappel down until you are just beneath the ledge. It is from this point that you will begin to haul.
Needless to say, you are now dangling in space, so you will need to use both your Grigri and your jug. After each stroke, you will have to jug back up the haul line.
Everything else applies here, in that you must turn yourself upside down as you haul.
It is especially important to pull the rope outwards, not just to reduce friction on the haul line between you and your pig, but to reduce the friction on the haul line where it rubs against the ledge above you.
This means that you may be pulling outwards almost as much as you are pulling down. This may involve a sort of circular motion whereby you first pull out followed by a smooth transition pulling down.
Timing The Bounce
When you are hauling, you will discover an "inertial effect" whereby the co-efficient of dynamic friction is less than the co-efficient of static friction. This is to say, once the pig gets moving, it becomes easier to move.
"Get it?"
This means that where friction is a problem, you need to "take a run at it."
And this is precisely what I mean - you must RUN DOWN THE WALL as you haul the pig up! This is the reason that you must tie yourself in long.
Turn yourself upside-down and grab the haul line, and as you pull up, start running down! After you finish running down, you will have to jug back up.
Sometimes you will find yourself dangling free in space. In this instance you cannot run down the wall - instead, you will have to pull yourself hand over hand down the haul line.
You may find that your strokes are now about ten feet long. You will need to find the optimum place to operate, depending on the bumps and curves in the wall, and where your haul line rubs.
In order to make things easier on yourself, you can time the bounce. Even static ropes allow some stretch, and by "timing the bounce" I mean that you must get this rope stretch to work for you, and not against you.
What this means is that you must watch your compound pulley, and as you haul, carefully watch your pulley's oscillations. The oscillations will change, incidentally, as your pig approaches the haul station. The shorter the length of haul line, the higher the frequency of the oscillations.
So when I say to "time the bounce," I mean you must time your pull to pull down when you see your compound pulley oscillate outwards.
If you time the bounce right, you will achieve a huge mechanical advantage! This is not something that can be easily explained, and there is only one effective way to learn it -
Practise.
Troubleshooting
The pig won't move.
Here are some possible solutions:
You have hosed yourself. You are tight against either your daisy chain or your backup tie-in rope. Give yourself more slack. Check this first before you check anything else, as it is easy to do.
The pig is stuck under a roof. Desperate times require more desperate measures.
When the pig gets stuck, the first thing you should do is try pulling out on the haul line. I mean, REALLY PULL OUT! Pull for all you're worth!
Another Big Wall Tip is to lower the pig perhaps two to four feet, and take a run AS you pull out! This takes timing, practise and technique, but is often sufficient to get the pig to pass around minor obstacles
Keep trying the technique above - it may take you several attempts before you succeed. Try moving the haul line at different angles to see if you can free it.
If the bag is hopelessly stuck, then either your partner will have to free it, or you will have to rappel down the lead rope to free it yourself.
If you must free it yourself, then you bloody better have set up a Far End Hauler on your pig, or you will be cursing the day you ever set foot on the wall!
The Far End Hauler will form part of the upcoming presentation,
Dr. Piton's Championship Pig Wrestling Series,
a collection of RC.com Articles I am putting together with the help of Andrew [atg200], Bob [bshaftoe] and Hillary [climbsomething].
Git it now while the gittin' is good - it ain't gonna be free for long!
I am Dr. Piton,
and I have wrestled many a pig in my day.
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karlbaba
Aug 6, 2002, 1:25 AM
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Thanks for taking the time to lay it all out very clearly Dr. P. I kept waiting for you to leave something out so I could chime in with a bit of wisdom. But, you covered it all, proving you are a truly lazy bastard!
Here are some tid-bits for folks to consider.
If it's hot, put a bit of hard candy in your mouth so you don't get cotton mouth and suck down more water than you need. Jolly Ranchers and Atomic Fireballs are my favorite.
If you don't want to jug back up the rope after each pull, I clip two or three aiders together, hang em low and use them to get back up again. Sometimes I'll clip my daisy chain in to them somewhere if I wasn't able to tie in slack enought to reach as low as I wanted.
Your Haul bag needs a name. My longest living haul-bag's name is Dorf (pronounced with a German Accent)
Like Pete says, never give up. If it gets stuck, lower it a bit, pull it right or left a bit, go up and down until you time the bounce, orientation of the straps relative to the roof, and everything else just right and are redeemed. Don't discount the pulling up on the tight haul line while you pull down the other side. It works like magic
Perseverance is everything on big walls.
Peace
Karl
Karl
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drewcoleman
Aug 6, 2002, 10:15 PM
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Dr. Piton always has detailed posts. RIGHT ON MAN!!! Share the knowledge!
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apollodorus
Aug 7, 2002, 2:57 AM
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When PTPP shouts up vile epithets, it's slander. But printing and disseminating it at large is LIBEL!
And not only that, he forgot to tell everyone that the haul rope will catch on rivet heads on traversing pitches, requiring the cleaner (ME) to lower midpitch on the Gri-Gri and take big-air swings to grab, tug and free the rope. It's not polite to crank on the haul rope when it's stuck on the sharply mushroomed head of a rivet. Not even when it's your partner's haul rope. PTPP did not crank on the rope that time, by the way.
My hauling tip is to go NASA: a solar panel, a big motorcycle battery, a gear motor and a capstan. The numbers all work out. You only need about a 2x2 foot panel to charge the battery up during the two/four hours the leader is fooling around with "equalizing heads" and "tieing off stacked beaks" and other nonsense. As a bonus, you can put on a laser light show for the Winnebagoists at night with all that excess energy ("Pa! What izzit, pa? Them's aliens???")
As soon as I can find a flexible photovoltaic solar panel, I'm making it into a portaledge.
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justsendingits
Aug 12, 2002, 6:17 PM
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PTPP,need help,how do I pass a knot through the hauler,using a 1-1 haul? Sheesh!! like I know that a prusik is involved eh!!--Thanx
R
[ This Message was edited by: justsendingits on 2003-01-09 18:53 ]
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passthepitonspete
Aug 12, 2002, 9:38 PM
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The Traditional Way to pass a knot using a 1:1 hauling system is as follows. Note that I did not say pass the knot through the hauler - rather you will be bypassing the hauler.
Here's how:
Bring the knot up to the 1:1 hauler as close as you can without jamming it.
Next, you use either an inverted ascender or prusik to hold the weight of the load beneath the 1:1 hauling device.
You must put the holding device far enough below the knot that you have enough haul line between the knot and the holding device that you can re-insert your 1:1 hauler.
Next thing is to back up the haul line by tying it into something! So after you remove the tension on your 1:1 hauler and put some slack into the haul line, you tie the haul line into your anchor as a backup.
After it's backed up, you can remove the 1:1 hauler from above the knot, and put it on below the knot.
Here's the catch - you must lower the position of the 1:1 hauler. You will typically lose two or three feet in this operation
That's the Traditional Way.
But fortunately, there is a Better Way.
There is always a Better Way!
The Better Way is to slap your 2:1 Hauling Ratchet onto the haul line, and cross the knot in about fifteen seconds flat, without losing any height or having to rerig anything.
Duh.
Just make sure the Zed-Cord on your hauling ratchet is at least ten feet long, and have two ascenders handy to jug the Zed-Cord enough to lift the knot past the 1:1 Holding Ratchet in your system.
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justsendingits
Aug 22, 2002, 8:39 AM
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Dr.P.--Whats the best way to get the weight on to the acender,or prusik,if I do not have the gear for the 2-1 ???I have a Petz wall hauler,you know the one they bought from Rock Exotica.--Anyway,I take out the pin,pull the teeth back while weighting the rope, and slowly lower it on to the jumar.
Is there a " better way" to unload the 1-1 if you don't have the gear for the pully's for the 2-1??Could I use biners instead of pully's for the 2-1???
Cheers
R
[ This Message was edited by: justsendingits on 2002-08-22 01:45 ]
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passthepitonspete
Aug 22, 2002, 9:01 AM
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Hey Rich,
The way you describe is about the only way I could figure out to do it without the Zed-cord.
If you are going to have to cross a knot, I would certainly grab yourself at least a ten foot hunk of five to seven mil cord that you can use for the Zed-cord.
For the purposes of crossing a knot, you are right - you can substitute carabiners for the pulleys. You will have extra friction to overcome, but you're a big lad!
Hope you make it to Yos. before I leave at the end of September, mate!
Cheers,
Pete
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justsendingits
Aug 22, 2002, 9:21 AM
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Ya, using biner's for the 2-1--due to lack of pully's would work fine,even for smaller guys.You would only have to haul it a few feet.It's not like climbers are weaklings eh!!!
And I don't want to hear your spew about how weak you are,I schleeped loads with you before in exchange for beta.For a skinny lad,you shure can hump loads up the choss!!
Having finance problems,(puttung a solo rack together)will not be able to come out to the valley until Oct.--Would loooove to watch you do Scorched earth!!!!
Cheers
R
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passthepitonspete
Nov 3, 2002, 8:56 PM
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For reasons I do not completely understand, I somehow failed to mention that if you are NOT using the Kong Block Roll for your 1:1 hauling needs, then you are doing things the "Traditional Way".
Note that whenever Dr. Piton uses the word "traditional", he really means "stupid".
This is what the thing looks like,
and you can click here to read Gary Storrick's shtick on the Kong Block Roll.
You can click here to see an actual on-the-wall photo of my Kong Block Roll incorporated into a 2:1 Hauling Ratchet.
Kong Block Rolls are not unlike hens' teeth in that they are difficult to locate, but the thing only costs about $30 U.S. more than a Wall Hauler and it is well worth the effort to find one.
I am Dr. Piton,
and Chongo has taught me well that doing things the hard way is the sport of fools.
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copperhead
Jan 3, 2003, 8:57 AM
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Quote:
Note that whenever Dr. Piton uses the word "traditional", he really means "stupid".
REALLY?
You should be careful when you refer to the methods of many experienced Valley climbers as stupid.
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apollodorus
Jan 3, 2003, 10:22 AM
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Dr. Piton has surgically brought many to the top. His methods, concepts and PROVEN theories leave little for desparagement in the face of ACTUAL practice.
I challenge anyone to say that Dr. Piton's methods are wrong on the wall.
Everything he does works. (He can make a mistake, OK, fine, but that was ONCE!)
If you want to wall up, you'd better check out Dr. Piton's Better Way, because it WORKS.
Dr. Piton can take a totally Gumby up not one, but TWO hardcore walls, and not bail. And not only that, do them in style with coffee and croissants.
I know. I was the Gumby.
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copperhead
Jan 3, 2003, 5:54 PM
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Quote:
I challenge anyone to say that Dr. Piton's methods are wrong on the wall.
Are you sure you want to say that?
Quote:
Everything he does works. (He can make a mistake, OK, fine, but that was ONCE!)
It only takes once to die.
In all fairness, I really should wait until he gets back to bring this stuff up.
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elcapbuzz
Jan 4, 2003, 7:22 PM
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Quote:
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Everything he does works. (He can make a mistake, OK, fine, but that was ONCE!)
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I don't want to turn this into a "flaming war"...... BUT.....
Pete is human. Humans make errors. I'm sure Pete will agree with me on this.
If he doesn't.... I will remind him about the whole rack of pins he dropped on Sea of Dreams. (Ok, that was once) How about the entire pig that was scattered (Pete's flawless system, failed) at the base of El Cap a few months ago. I heard it came close to hitting someone.
I've said it before. Pete is a GREAT wall climber. He has unselfishly posted more beta than anyone on this site (so far).
But..... let's put things in perspective.
He is not GOD.
We are all equal in this world..... and we equally make mistakes.
Cheers, Ammon
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timpanogos
Jan 5, 2003, 4:53 AM
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To the likes of Ammon and Bryan (i.e. very experienced big wallers):
Ammon said, I've said it before. Pete is a GREAT wall climber. He has unselfishly posted more beta than anyone on this site (so far).
Ammons so far statement intrigues me personally. I think Petes intention is to leave a trail of beta (the index is a good start) that could lead other gumbies like myself from start to successful completion of a big-wall.
One positive aspect of Petes God like personal here at RC.COM, has been to keep much of his indexed threads fairly focused on the topic. For example I will gladly delete this post to keep the thing on topic so the next gumby can focus on trying to wade through Petes posts and pull out the meat.
It would have been nice for me to have had a step by step, and here is why, precise spoon feed, text like presentation on the system that he uses Its been a much harder academic pursuit to try and visualize, draw out, rig up, and try to understand what the heck is up but maybe that has been a boon for me as it has made me have to internalize and make sure I understand the various parts of the system so as not to die.
Of course Im all ears, if there are subtle flaws in Petes system or perhaps there are parts of the system that really are personal preference which other input will help others to also adapt a base system to their own needs/preference. And better yet if that base system is a very complete, even complex system, which helps us to understand the potential pros and cons of modifying that system; for speed, for cost, for whatever, as long as the underlying knowledge of the principles are their, so that we can apply risk management to our own levels of acceptance.
Maybe it would be well for you guys to get with Pete on a personal bases, and discuss how the vast amount of effort he was put into this can be respected and yet also allow for a true forum of analysis of state-of-the-art aiding systems.
Almost as verbose as Pete, but just my 2 cents worth.
Chad
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alpinelynx
Jan 5, 2003, 5:29 AM
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there isn't only one way to do things and what one person envisions as the 'better way' may not be the 'better way' for another. Personally, I research research research a topic in order to understand how it works. The purpose? Knowledge is power and, I don't really want to die climbing. The more I know about something, the more secure I feel when something heinous arises.
However, I am a fan of the elegant and simplest solutions to problems. Engineering feats are cool, but not my style.
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apollodorus
Jan 5, 2003, 5:30 AM
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Get the Yates Wall Harness, or at least steal all the foam from your couch cushions and duct-tape it into your sport harness' waist loop.
You need to be able to turn upside down and push off the wall to haul effectively. If your harness doesn't have the padding, you will be hurting. Nobody's kidneys are strong enough.
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passthepitonspete
Jan 9, 2003, 7:14 PM
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Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!
My numerous mistakes and acts of meritorious stupidity are well documented on RC.com! The reason I publish my mistakes for the whole world to see is so that [hopefully] YOU won't make them.
[Don't do as I do, do as I say....]
For instance, you can click here to read about how I dropped Tom's pig. [I'm frickin' lucky it didn't kill anyone...] I expect I shall take some well-deserved ribbing over that little episode! It is certain to generate a lot of laughs!
I have also written in several places where I stupidly sat my pin rack down on my portaledge without first clipping it in, and then having the wind blow the ledge sideways against the wall and send all my pitons crashing to the talus five or six hundred feet below!
[Providentially]Ammon happened by the base of the crag, and thankfully clipped the rack onto the end of the ropes we had tied together, thus saving me a long and aggravating jug. Had this happened very much higher, it really would have been stupid!]
Note: If you see my Crab-O-Ledge above you, perhaps you should consider wearing your helmet
So if anyone around here really IS stupid, it is probably me!
Incidentally, I agree with most every word that Ammon, Tom, Chad, Bryan and Michelle have written above, so no need to repeat. [HINT]
May we please return this thread to 1:1 hauling?
In the meantime, please let me be crystal clear on what I meant by "stupid" above.
The Kong Block Roll is far and away the most efficient compound pulley you can currently buy. It beats the hell out of the Traxions and the Wall Hauler. It is ETS.
If this thing cost five dollars, I believe many people would own one and throw away their Wall Haulers, or relegate them to their Far End Hauler. Unfortunately this device costs much more than that. Maybe people can't afford it. Maybe people didn't know it existed. Maybe people bought one of the aforementioned devices which will indeed work, it just won't work nearly as well. Maybe people can't be bothered. Whatever.
"On a toujours la choix."
Now, when I used the Kong Block Roll on Lunar Eclipse, I was able to make a 1:1 haul on a much heavier load than if I had been using a less efficient compound pulley. If I didn't have the Kong device, I would have been using a 2:1, which is much more time-consuming.
So I think it would have been pretty stupid of me to have hauled it with my Wall Hauler! It would have made me work a lot harder, something I am quite unwilling to do.
Now, do my statements mean I am saying that if you use something other than a Block Roll to haul, that you are therefore stupid? Certainly not. If this were the case, I would have to consider most everyone on the wall stupid, which I do not.
My intent here is not to flame. My intent is to teach. I really hate it when choss like this clutters my technical posts. I hate it even more when it is self-inflicted. Sometimes I am too much of a smartass. Perhaps this is one of these times.
If I have insulted anyone in any way, I do apologize.
Cheers,
Pete
[Coffee and croissants indeed.]
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timpanogos
Jan 9, 2003, 10:12 PM
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I don't have my hot little hands on that Kong Block Roll, but in trying to order it, my pro shop says it retails on his books for about $100.00 - The ProTraxion is 85 - so 15 bucks difference should not be a huge factor
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passthepitonspete
Jan 10, 2003, 12:37 AM
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It'll be the best fifteen bucks you'll ever spend!
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philbox
Moderator
Jan 10, 2003, 1:28 AM
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I have an SRTE rescue mate which has a swl of 1,000 kgs and an ultimate load of 5,100kgs. It looks similar to the Kong but they have made it even simpler. Go here for a look at it and the spec sheet.
rescuemate
I`ll take a pic sometime and link it here too.
There ya go, hope it links like it should.
[ This Message was edited by: philbox on 2003-01-09 19:42 ]
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copperhead
Jan 10, 2003, 1:31 AM
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Re. Kong Block Roll:
I could not find stats on pulley wheel diameter. Is it 2 or 2 ?
Is the micro-ascender attached to the pulley frame by the two pin/keyhole connections?
Gary Storrick:
Quote:
Although the Block Roll is part of a modular system, remember that there is a small bolt and nut that can easily be lost, so it may not be wise to expect to routinely attach and detach the block roll in the field where dropping the bolt may cause problems.
Is he referring to the pulley axle assembly or the mounting of the micro-ascender?
I assume that the top plate of the pulley frame rotates to allow you to place the rope onto the pulley. Correct?
Thanks Pete.
[ This Message was edited by: copperhead on 2003-01-09 18:36 ]
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passthepitonspete
Jan 10, 2003, 4:05 AM
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Bryan writes,
Quote:"I assume that the top plate of the pulley frame rotates to allow you to place the rope onto the pulley. Correct?"
Spoken like an ee-WAH-nah - "Siiiiii.... You do not have to take the theeng off of the carabeener to put thee rope through...."
But ya know, Bryan, I don't rightly know the answers to your other questions! Unfortunately for this post, my Block Roll is cached at Hans Florine's place, in order to save me the cost of the excess baggage on my flights to and from Yosemite.
The pulley appears to be 2 1/2" in the photo of the Kong device above. It is quite big indeed. The bearings are sweet. It's well made, for sure.
I don't like the look of the SRTE Rescuemate because it has the same downfall as the Wall Hauler - you have to take it off of the carabiner to thread the rope because there is no sliding plate in the front like the Block Roll.
The Rescuemate looks to be a slightly smaller 2" pulley, but I'm not sure. But it looks well made. They make some cool stuff.
But I'd take the Kong over this device.
As for the wall worthiness of the Kong, I have no idea what Gary Storrick means about a small bolt and nut that can easily be lost.
There is nothing on the Block Roll you could lose as far as I am aware. [The very strong implication being that if there were, I would have somehow figured out how...]
I'm wondering if Gary was looking at an older model with a design flaw that has since been corrected? The one I've got is ETS!
Has anyone got one of these things in his hands who can answer Bryan's question?
[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2003-01-10 10:16 ]
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timpanogos
Jan 10, 2003, 5:40 AM
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Kong is in major funky mode here in the USA right now - My proshop manager - who has lots of good contacts - is having a very hard time getting/finding any Kong connections at this point.
He said he had a couple of rabbits to try and pull out of the hat. I'll let you know if he can find one.
Chad
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taxexile
Jan 10, 2003, 8:32 AM
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Barrabes www.barrabes.com seem to have Block-rolls in stock, retailing at €70.71, which is about $75.
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rogueclimber
Jan 11, 2003, 2:46 AM
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Can I haul as much beer as I drink?
ROGUE
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passthepitonspete
Jan 11, 2003, 3:48 AM
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What the heck do you need to haul the beer when *I* frickin' haul it for ya, ya crusty BAH-STAHD!
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
And like, welcome aboard, eh?
[Another]reprobate from the infamous Big Sur Ledge Keg Party emerges. We now have 3 1/2 out of five on board]
Note to moderator Andrew: This post and the one above should probably be deleted after a few days, since they are off-topic, but I just couldn't resist..... click on Rogue's profile to see who he is!
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yosemite
Jan 11, 2003, 3:55 AM
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>>Can I haul as much beer as I drink?<<
Can I drink as much beer as I haul?
Sounds like a challenge to me, either way.
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timpanogos
Jan 17, 2003, 8:15 PM
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Yea haw ..
Barrabes delivered my Kong Block roll. I can see why Pete rants about his baby. The splitting top, with the funky hook allowing you to attach a rope without unclipping is a fantastic design! The inner-most diameter of the pulley is 2 and 1/8”.
And Barrabes had this on my doorstep 3 days after I on-line ordered it! roughly 90 dollars with shipping
Yep – it’s Friday – can’t wait to get out tomorrow!
Chad
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2003-01-17 12:17 ]
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passthepitonspete
Jan 18, 2003, 12:42 AM
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I paid over a hundred bucks for mine from IMO, a caving shop.
Good deal.
Now go out and practise hauling rocks!
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copperhead
Jan 20, 2003, 7:28 PM
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1:1 Hauling, when climbing with a partner:
A Wall Hauler works well for light loads but I do not recommend them for any serious loads. I lead with a Wall Hauler clipped to the back of my harness; an 8 or 9mm trail line is pre-threaded through the hauler and ready to go. I haul a light load consisting of the hardware bag (A5 Haul Pack) and maybe a portaledge (I do not flag my ledge) and a food bucket. Water, snacks, jackets, and beer can be stashed in the top of the hardware bag for quick access. My main hauling system and a fatty haul line are attached to the first sub-haul. This light load is easy to haul and goes quickly (sometimes you can even leg-haul it). I then set-up my main haul system.
I use a CMI RP 104 pulley. Click here for another view. The side-plates are stainless steel and the pulley wheel (sheave) is aluminum (2 3/8 dia.). I originally used an RP 102; the side-plates are aluminum and over time, the aluminum at the biner clip-in point will roll or creep upward. Sooner or later, the unit will need to be retired. This pulley does, however, have a weight advantage over the RP 104 because it is made of aluminum. The RP 102 is also less expensive and will work for light duty in the short-term. The stainless steel side-plates on the RP 104 are stronger and much more durable, but are heavier.
A Petzl Basic ascender works well as the cam mechanism for my hauling system. The micro ascender hangs just below the pulley and is clipped to a doubled, sewn sling that is clipped into the main hauling biner (big locker that the pulley hangs from). Be sure that the pulley does not pinch the sling. Clip a few pins (or other gear) to the bottom of the micro ascender to keep it from moving upward on the haul line. The pulley can be removed while the bag hangs from the micro ascender. I clip a quick-draw to the haul line on either side of the pulley; the other end is clipped to a main anchor point. This does not backup the micro ascender but it does backup the pulley and main hauling biner while you are hauling (presuming you are attached to the haul line with your ascender or Gri-gri (I still use an ascender)).
The Rescuemate looks like a good device, though it does have one drawback. The cam is integrated into the frame of the unit. This means that the cam cannot be removed and used as a backup ascender or for other purposes. The question I had about the removable nut and bolt on the Kong unit was in reference to the removal of the micro ascender/cam mechanism. Does the attachment require a nut and bolt or does it only rely on the two pin/key-lock connections pictured?
Most wall belays are now equipped with 3/8 bolts. I do not use cordalettes (or however you want to spell it) and power-points for this reason. If the belay is composed of natural gear, I will use slings to equalize pieces to form 2 or 3 mini-power-points. Bolts or mini-pps are connected with the lead line to form the belay. I haul directly off of one 3/8 bolt at bolted belays. This means that you can haul a haulbag right up to the bolt (almost) and not have it hanging way below the belay easier access. A 2:1 hauling system does not allow you to do this, due to the additional length of the system. As you may have noticed, hauling directly off of one bolt causes biner wear at the biner/bolt hanger contact point. Bolt hangers are kind of sharp and will cut a small v-notch in your aluminum biners over time. To solve this problem, you can use steel biners, one at each belay; leapfrog them from belay to belay. Clip the main hauling biner (big aluminum locker) directly to the steel biner. I have tried an HB steel locker but they are not hard enough; it too developed a hanger notch. The ones that seem to work the best are the large, gold-colored lockers. I have two: one says Bluewater (40 kN) and the other says Omega (53 kN). They look exactly the same. I think they are manufactured by Omega; see Large D Steel Screw-Lok. (side note: Vipers make great racking biners see link)
When climbing with multiple haulbags, splitting the load into two or more hauls and using a 1:1 system enables you to dock the bags at separate parts of the belay. However, it also means that the cleaner must wait for the last bag to leave the lower belay before cleaning. Splitting loads may be of slight help in keeping things organized at belays during the day but it is more important to have easy access to your haulbag at bivies (and vice versa for your partner). Haul both loads from the steel locker; dock the first bag off to one side and the second on the steel locker. I still hang my pigs from loop-style daisies and backup the daisies by tying-off the haul line but I am open to the idea of using load-release knots.
These are just a few other options to what has been mentioned above. Simple works for me; use whatever works for you.
In a sick and twisted way, hauling can be fun. Enjoy the pain.
Happy hauling!
-------
added more links
[ This Message was edited by: copperhead on 2003-01-22 16:22 ]
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passthepitonspete
Jan 20, 2003, 8:41 PM
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Great hauling tips, Bryan!
Good idea about the steel lockers on the bolts, assuming you want to haul directly from them. To clip anchor bolts, I usually just use standards whose history I know, but then again, I'm an aid climber - every crab I have is chewed to hell. [You should see the looks my gear gets during those infrequent visits to the gym...]
I usually have so darn much stuff that I don't like to haul off of a single bolt, even if it is a 3/8-incher and [obviously] backed up.
The drawback of my system is obvious, though - with a cordalette and a 2:1, my bivis frequently end up hanging six feet or more below my anchors. I never seem to be within reach of my anchors, which is why I advocate in my vertical camping post that you be particularly vell-organicized.
I just hate to leave my ledge once I'm settled in.
I certainly like the convenience a compound pulley offers, not to mention how there is very little slippage when you unweight during hauling strokes. The pulley on the Block Roll is pretty good, though I bet you could buy a better separate one.
It's been a long long time since I have chosen to haul without a compound pulley as Bryan does, so I'm wondering, do you get much slippage if you set it up right? I bet this would take some practice, getting the holding cam properly adjusted.
BIG PULLEYS make hauling much easier, for sure!
When climbing with a partner, I always split the loads into two more-or-less equal weights, and I have two separate haul lines and two separate compound pulleys. [With Tom on Scorched Earth, I hauled the lighter load with the Wall Hauler and the heavier with the Block Roll. [When]2:1 hauling, it doesn't matter which holding device you use.]
Yeah, we may be sick and twisted, but some of us are more sick and twisted than others!!
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!
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timpanogos
Jan 21, 2003, 1:11 AM
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Bryan,
I have a few questions (big surprise).
1.“Hardware bag”, contains gear not needed for pitch/day? I assume your wall hauler works great for zipping with the pre-attached 8-9mm. Would you please explain your gear management in a little more detail?’ My clean-aid tag rack alone is over 40 pounds. Leaving your haul gear tagging with the haul line is a great idea.
2. What is a food bucket, literal 5 gal plastic bucket?
3. That CMI pulley does look sweet. I thought my Petzl rescue looked big, but measuring, it’s a measly 1.5” inner-most diameter – compared to the RP 104- almost 2.5 – but then again, I got it for 2:1.
4.It seems that a combo pulley is ‘Simpler’ as you don’t have to setup the doubled sewn sling, weighted basic etc. Why would you want to remove the pulley and leave your haul on the basic anyway? I noticed one scary thing the other day setting up my basic on the 2:1 – you want to tether the thing to you before you start hooking it up, easy to drop, and it about took off down the line on it’s own even after hooking on the line. My min-traxion makes me nervous about this also, because there are no holes to tether it to (but same goes for the grigri).
5. Your QD backup is a great piece of mind trick I would not have thought of. Even though my Kong is rated at 30kn to the anchor and 15kn down each side. When soloing and I rap my haul line (all setup on the pulley) I’ll remember this!
6.On the new Kong that I just got – the micro ascender is non-removable and so has the same drawback as the Rescuemate in this case. And yet as mentioned in item 4 above, IMHO this is an advantage. But then I’m a gear hog, and having a mini-traxion on me, as well as a basic, and rescue pulley for 2:1, (and not counting my tibloc, and normal prusik loops) I’m not too worried about the need of another emergency/general purpose ascender. And Bryan’s way, of leaving most of this on your sub-haul removes some of the weight concern. For me to setup a 2:1 takes 4 pieces of equipment (two pulleys, basic and kong). If you don’t 2:1 it takes 2 piece of gear (Kong and mini-traxion (for subhaul and 2:1)). If I understand your system right, you require 3 pieces – Wall Hauler (for sub haul), CMI pulley and basic. – Ok, in honesty, I will have two more pieces of gear – swivel and pro-traxion sitting at the pig for far-end pig rescue.
Chad
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copperhead
Jan 23, 2003, 12:01 AM
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Chad,
1. The hardware bag contains all excess hardware; this includes the gear that is not used on the pitch that has just been led. I dont use the Wall Hauler for zipping gear mid-pitch just yard the gear up, hand over hand and clip it to one of your aiders (etc.), then rack it onto your gear sling. I guess you could use something like a mini-Traxion to make it easier. 40 lbs.?! Sounds like that should include the pin and head rack too. I organize hardware by racking it on separate slings (9/16th supertape runner) that are stored and hauled in the hardware bag and removed as needed (by the belayer) during leads. These racks can be clipped to the inside of your hardware bag if the bag is equipped with internal daisies. If there isnt room in the hardware bag, I will clip the jumbo cams (#4 Camalot and above) to the bottom of the bag. Racking methods will be dependent on the type of route that you are climbing and how much hardware you have. For instance, this is how I would organize gear on sub-racks for a nail-up:
-cams and nuts (including ball-nuts)
-pins
-heads, rivet hangers, keyhole hangers, beaks, RURPs, and hooks
-Free-biners, extra lockers, quick-draws, screamers (set-up as QDs w/ wiregates), and extra belay/rap device (ATC)
-webbing (slings and tie-offs)
I prefer to lead with a light rack and tag gear when needed. Once you have climbed more than half a rope-length, the haul line will need to be attached to the end of the zip-line for recovery so it is best to tag what you think you will need for the rest of the pitch before you reach half-rope.
2. Yup. A 5-gallon plastic paint bucket it is. The suspension consists of two loops of 1 supertape (for durability), oriented at right angles around the bottom of the bucket. Wrap duct tape (thoroughly) around the bottom and sides of the bucket to secure the webbing to the bucket. Also wrap duct tape around the four lengths of webbing at lid-level to prevent abrasion and around the two loops of webbing at the suspension clip-in point to form a single anchor point (this anchor point should be about 12 above the lid). Drill a small hole in the lid and rig a keeper leash out of 3mm cord; tie one end of the cord to one of the bucket-handle-holes or one of the suspension straps and the other end with an overhand knot, once you have threaded the cord through the hole in the lid. Girth-hitch an old looped daisy to the buckets suspension point; clip a small locker to the end of the daisy and a non-locker to the loop closest to the bucket. For hauling, clip the locker to the bottom of one of your haulbags and clip the non-locker to the locker. When you are chillin at a belay or at the bivy, hang the bucket from the full length of the daisy and pull it up as needed (clip the non-locker to a second daisy loop at the desired height). A food bucket is great for keeping soft food from getting smashed; store canned food in stuff sacks inside your main haulbag.
3. The 2 3/8 diameter that I mentioned above for the CMI pulleys is an outer diameter; the inside diameter is 2. You mentioned an inner diameter of 2 1/8 for the Kong pulley. I believe that the Wall Hauler has an outer wheel diameter of 2 and an inside diameter of 1 1/2, as you have stated for the Petzl Rescue pulley.
4. My Simple reference was a generalized one. The haul system is always set-up (i.e. the micro ascender, sling, and pulley are clipped to the main hauling locker). I simply clip the system onto the steel locker and slap a little weight on the micro ascender. Because the micro ascender is always clipped-in, I dont have to worry about dropping it. Normally, you wouldnt need to un-clip the pulley from the hauling locker while the bags are on the haul line, though this would be useful if you need to pass a knot and continue to use the same pulley but at a different height at the belay. The pulley does need to be removed from the hauling locker to place the rope through. Dont drop it!
5. The quick-draw backup is only a partial backup and used while hauling.
6. Whatever works.
[ This Message was edited by: copperhead on 2003-01-22 20:11 ]
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timpanogos
Jan 23, 2003, 5:46 AM
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Thanks Brian. Excellent material above!
Not sure why I'm so heavy - all my non-lockers are lightweight wire gates - except for a hand full of keyless in critical places (wires, nylon, lead etc). That's 3 sets of cams to BD #3.5 (only one set of BD's from .75 to 4) 2 sets of cams from #4 DB to 6 friends, 1 set of alien offsets, 2 sets of HB bronze, 1 set of HB aluminum, 2 sets of regular nuts (I basically have 3 sets of nuts, from rp/micro through normal) and two sets of hooks and cam hooks.
I'm over 40 pounds - but that is also with my kong, grigi, 2 pullies, protraxion and swivel - so taking the haul gear off might drop it to a little under 40, but not much.
I bought Krusty out of his nailing stuff, which must be about another 10 pounds. Dang, and I need a chiesle and punch.
Wow, then throw in the harnesses, slings, aiders, QD's, 60 meter 10.5 lead and 60 meter 11+ static rope.
Of course I’m going to have to learn how to pick out the subset of this for any given climb (Prodigal, 2 sets of cams, 3 sets of nuts, Spaceshot , 2-3 sets of cams, 1 set of nuts etc.), But being a gumby, I would tend to error on the heavy side, especially if I can haul most of it. Open for suggestions.
Chad
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verticallaw
Apr 15, 2003, 9:23 PM
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O.k. maybe I am just retarted but I have read all of the hauling tips but as I have no one that has a clue what I'm doing with me I have no clue if I am doing it right. Does any one have a picture of body position etc while hauling. this would really help me understand how this system works.
Cheers
Mike
I may be a retard but at least I ask questions :?
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copperhead
Apr 15, 2003, 9:45 PM
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There are some nice drawings by John McMullen in the Long and Middendorf Big Walls book. Check it out; it's still a good resource.
Jeeze, this lab is really boring...
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socalclimber
Apr 15, 2003, 11:42 PM
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Ok, now I have a few questions for copperhead.
1) Do you see any problems with using the Petzl Protraction?? They are strong as hell, you don't need to take them off the biner to remove or add the haul line to the system, and they are all one piece. Am I missing something here???
2) I wanna think this one through before I ask it!
Robert
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verticallaw
Apr 16, 2003, 12:28 AM
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thanks copperhead.... where would I find this book? ...is there info online?
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socalclimber
Apr 16, 2003, 12:40 AM
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Big Walls
John Logn
John Middendorf
ISBN 0-934641-63-3
Here's a link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0934641633/qid=1050453315/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-6186955-8409724
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copperhead
Apr 16, 2003, 1:27 AM
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Robert,
1) I dont own a Pro Traxion, nor have I used one. Its been a few years since Ive bought any new climbing gear.
According to the Petzl website, http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicFamille?id=POUL-BLOQ#PRO%20TRAXION the sheave diameter is 38mm, which is about 1 1/2". The Pro Traxion is probably a good substitute for the original Wall Hauler. They are good for light loads or a gear bag. If you are doing any serious hauling, you are better off with a larger pulley like the CMI ones that I mentioned earlier. Larger sheave = better mechanical advantage.
2)?
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socalclimber
Apr 16, 2003, 1:45 AM
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By saying light loads, are we talking 100lbs or less????
Ok, now for #2
2) I'm not sure I understand how you construct your belays. You mentioned not using cordelettes (sp?), but using slings to construct multiple pp's with the climbing rope. I use cordelettes (sp?) and then pull the three (for instance) front strands of the cordellete and girth hitch slings to that to make multiple pp's (something I learned from WB). You also stated you use the lead line as part of your belay setup. I guess I'm a little confused, or am I???
Sorry if the question is not clear, I'm not sure what I'm asking, cause I'm not sure I understand what you said.
Robert
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passthepitonspete
Apr 16, 2003, 2:50 AM
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Actually, I was wondering the same thing. I never use my lead rope to construct any of the belay, however if I were to, I would probably use transient crabs so I could easily remove the lead rope later.
I didn't "get" that bit, either.
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socalclimber
Apr 16, 2003, 4:14 AM
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Actualy, I think I understand what your doing... You mean you are just tieing into the belay, as opposed to constructing the belay with the rope.
I have actually used the technique of using multiple slings to create multiple pp's. It seems that if the bolts are reasonably spread apart, this works very well. If the pro is positioned more verticaly, then the cordelette would work better. Thoughts?
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copperhead
Apr 16, 2003, 6:51 AM
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In reply to: By saying light loads, are we talking 100lbs or less????
Yeah, pretty much. 60 to 80, maybe 100 lbs, sometimes even lighter you can leg-haul a light load darn quick and with less energy expended.
Please refer to this thread to continue the discussion. I figured that belay set-ups are different from 1:1 hauling.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29832
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socalclimber
Apr 16, 2003, 12:06 PM
Post #54 of 63
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Ok, so back to hauling and haulers (nice thread on belays by the way). For us mere mortals that are struggling to get up Grade V walls, would the Protraxion still be adequate? On my first (and only) successful wall we were hauling around 80lbs. Would buying the bigger pulley really yield that much difference in mech. advantage?
Maybe I'm being foolish, but I really like my protraxion, but if I need to drop the coin and get the setup you recommend, well I guess I will.
Next sub-topic for this thread: Space Hauling
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atg200
Apr 16, 2003, 1:05 PM
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The ProTraxion is fine for Grade V sized loads. We used one to haul through low angle Zion jungle where the loads are the heaviest with a standard 1:1, and had no problems. I also like the simplicity and construction, and am having a hard time justifying to myself buying a beefier haul device. I would love to have a mini Traxion for hauling small loads like I do in the Fisher Towers - its a bummer to haul along the Protraxion for a load on the edge of being able to hand over hand.
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justsendingits
Apr 16, 2003, 2:07 PM
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Don't forget about that warning on the Petz web site about the pro-trax and the mini.Larger ropes not jaming in the device when the free end is weighted.
and don't forget to clip the lower part of the pro trax with a crab eh?
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socalclimber
Apr 19, 2003, 1:20 PM
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Copperhead, could you please explain the process of space hauling.
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copperhead
Apr 25, 2003, 5:43 AM
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Space hauling is also referred to as counterweight hauling, is used with a 1:1 hauling system, and requires two people. I have used this system on only one wall, with a party of three; I dont have any extra tricks. It is rather simple in that the cleaner, once finished cleaning the pitch, puts his/her ascenders (cleaning system) on the free end of the haul line (on the opposite side of the haubags) and then hangs from it. This acts as a counterweight for the hauling system and makes hauling easier for the climber that is hauling. The cleaner ascends the haul line as necessary and should stay tied into the lead line, giving themselves about 20 or 30 feet of slack. Because space hauling entails the use of another climbers weight and is used for bags too heavy to haul with a 1:1 system and one climber, I recommend NOT hauling of off a single bolt, even if it is a fresh 3/8 bolt. Equalize the anchors to space haul or haul the bags in two separate loads. A good diagram of a space hauling system appears on page 76 of the Long/Middendorf book. McMullen rules.
Backup your haul system and don't use a Wall Hauler for space hauling!
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apollodorus
Apr 25, 2003, 6:04 AM
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One person can also space haul by himself. You put your jugs and aiders/slings on the haul line opposite the pig, and clip them to your harness. Then, you use another (dynamic) rope to tie in short to (like, 20 or 30 feet of line). You go down, with your jugs pulling the haul line, until the safety line stops you. Then, you jug up the haul line and do it again.
Since the bag is heavier than you are, you will need to generate downward force in addition to your weight to get the bag moving up. You can either pull up on the pig side of the haul line, or you can lean backwards so far you are nearly upside down and walk backwards down the wall. This last is murder on your kidneys unless your harness has LOTS of padding, but is fast.
The perfect setup is when the pig is about twenty pounds heavier than you are. You pull up sharply once on the pig side of the haul line, and its momentum will carry it up and you down until your safety line grabs you.
I edit this to clarify a few things.
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iamthewallress
Apr 25, 2003, 6:09 AM
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(Caveat...This isn't at all the safest way to do things. It's the impatient way to do things when you feel like trusting your life to gear that isn't really recommended for such a task because you don't care to experience free climbing with a 30 lb rack in the dark or some other impending epic if you don't get the lead out...)
Unless I've misunderstood...Youd don't really need 2 people to do a counterweight haul do you? 1:1 counterweight hauling (or what I think we're talking about anyway) has worked well for me solo when the freight-hooked bag (or the combo of bag weight and friction) weighs nearly as much as I do. You eliminate a step by essentially rapping/hauling at once and eliminating the need to basically jug the pitch twice (hauling and cleaning). Tramming yourself down your lead line with a quick draw (use lockers) attached to your belay loop provides a crappy back up and keeps you into the wall if it's steep (although if it was really steep, tramming would be too big of a PITA to be worth it...Feeling lucky with the pully alone?). I clean some stuff on the way down just because it's quicker to zip along, although it means lugging it back up.
I suppose that you could put a little redundancy into the system by adding an inverted asender to the pulley set up, although I haven't tried this.
This works fine for me because I only do C1/C2 at this point, therefore can back clean a good stretch over bomber gear. (Tramming the quickdraw would be a big pain on a stitched-up pitch.) Also, the combined weight of myself plus my bag is under the limit of the pulley (although extra bouncy forces involved with stuck bags and whatnot would probably push me over the limit). If you are a beefy guy with a big-ass bag, it might be even less advisable.
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iamthewallress
Apr 25, 2003, 6:20 AM
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Just read Tom's bit that he posted while I was responding to Copperhead's bit...
It's been my experience (as a 120 lb chick who doesn't want to fiddle with (x>1):1 hooey at every haul and who generally climbs on relatively low anglish terrain with a heavy bag) that giving myself as long of dynamic leash as is practical (usually 20-30 ft when climbing with a partner, but varies depending on the features at the belay) is a good thing to get a little momentum going. I really have to put a lot of back and kidneys and biceps (yanking up on the other side) into getting the bag moving sometimes, and a running start helps. Just thrashing backwards at the belay is no fun at all.
For folks like me leg hauling is what you do with a free-hanging day pack.
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copperhead
Apr 25, 2003, 7:05 AM
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Sorry. I guess I was too hasty in explaining the system. Space hauling or counterweight hauling involves two climbers, by nature. The system that you have both described is a modification of the standard 1:1 hauling system whereby the climber ties-in with a bunch of slack and uses momentum (as Apollo said) to get the bags moving. A space hauling system involves haulbags that are too heavy for one person to haul without the use of a 2:1 system. If two climbers are present, then a counterweighted 1:1 hauling system is much faster than a 2:1 system.
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coyoteblues
Apr 25, 2003, 7:10 AM
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In reply to: ...has worked well for me solo when the freight-hooked bag....
Something I got off of Tuan's site years back was to add a little loop of 4 mm cord to the end of the haul line and clip that to me instead of the actual haul line. That way if during either towing the haul line or while rapping back down the third line, disaster strikes, the little cord will blow and the bag won't pull me off the wall.
In reply to: For [120] folks like me leg hauling is what you do with a free-hanging day pack. |
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