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passthepitonspete
Jan 9, 2003, 7:14 PM
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Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!
My numerous mistakes and acts of meritorious stupidity are well documented on RC.com! The reason I publish my mistakes for the whole world to see is so that [hopefully] YOU won't make them.
[Don't do as I do, do as I say....]
For instance, you can click here to read about how I dropped Tom's pig. [I'm frickin' lucky it didn't kill anyone...] I expect I shall take some well-deserved ribbing over that little episode! It is certain to generate a lot of laughs!
I have also written in several places where I stupidly sat my pin rack down on my portaledge without first clipping it in, and then having the wind blow the ledge sideways against the wall and send all my pitons crashing to the talus five or six hundred feet below!
[Providentially]Ammon happened by the base of the crag, and thankfully clipped the rack onto the end of the ropes we had tied together, thus saving me a long and aggravating jug. Had this happened very much higher, it really would have been stupid!]
Note: If you see my Crab-O-Ledge above you, perhaps you should consider wearing your helmet
So if anyone around here really IS stupid, it is probably me!
Incidentally, I agree with most every word that Ammon, Tom, Chad, Bryan and Michelle have written above, so no need to repeat. [HINT]
May we please return this thread to 1:1 hauling?
In the meantime, please let me be crystal clear on what I meant by "stupid" above.
The Kong Block Roll is far and away the most efficient compound pulley you can currently buy. It beats the hell out of the Traxions and the Wall Hauler. It is ETS.
If this thing cost five dollars, I believe many people would own one and throw away their Wall Haulers, or relegate them to their Far End Hauler. Unfortunately this device costs much more than that. Maybe people can't afford it. Maybe people didn't know it existed. Maybe people bought one of the aforementioned devices which will indeed work, it just won't work nearly as well. Maybe people can't be bothered. Whatever.
"On a toujours la choix."
Now, when I used the Kong Block Roll on Lunar Eclipse, I was able to make a 1:1 haul on a much heavier load than if I had been using a less efficient compound pulley. If I didn't have the Kong device, I would have been using a 2:1, which is much more time-consuming.
So I think it would have been pretty stupid of me to have hauled it with my Wall Hauler! It would have made me work a lot harder, something I am quite unwilling to do.
Now, do my statements mean I am saying that if you use something other than a Block Roll to haul, that you are therefore stupid? Certainly not. If this were the case, I would have to consider most everyone on the wall stupid, which I do not.
My intent here is not to flame. My intent is to teach. I really hate it when choss like this clutters my technical posts. I hate it even more when it is self-inflicted. Sometimes I am too much of a smartass. Perhaps this is one of these times.
If I have insulted anyone in any way, I do apologize.
Cheers,
Pete
[Coffee and croissants indeed.]
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timpanogos
Jan 9, 2003, 10:12 PM
Post #27 of 63
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I don't have my hot little hands on that Kong Block Roll, but in trying to order it, my pro shop says it retails on his books for about $100.00 - The ProTraxion is 85 - so 15 bucks difference should not be a huge factor
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passthepitonspete
Jan 10, 2003, 12:37 AM
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It'll be the best fifteen bucks you'll ever spend!
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philbox
Moderator
Jan 10, 2003, 1:28 AM
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I have an SRTE rescue mate which has a swl of 1,000 kgs and an ultimate load of 5,100kgs. It looks similar to the Kong but they have made it even simpler. Go here for a look at it and the spec sheet.
rescuemate
I`ll take a pic sometime and link it here too.
There ya go, hope it links like it should.
[ This Message was edited by: philbox on 2003-01-09 19:42 ]
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copperhead
Jan 10, 2003, 1:31 AM
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Re. Kong Block Roll:
I could not find stats on pulley wheel diameter. Is it 2” or 2 ½”?
Is the micro-ascender attached to the pulley frame by the two pin/keyhole connections?
Gary Storrick:
Quote:
Although the Block Roll is part of a modular system, remember that there is a small bolt and nut that can easily be lost, so it may not be wise to expect to routinely attach and detach the block roll in the field where dropping the bolt may cause problems.
Is he referring to the pulley axle assembly or the mounting of the micro-ascender?
I assume that the top plate of the pulley frame rotates to allow you to place the rope onto the pulley. Correct?
Thanks Pete.
[ This Message was edited by: copperhead on 2003-01-09 18:36 ]
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passthepitonspete
Jan 10, 2003, 4:05 AM
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Bryan writes,
Quote:"I assume that the top plate of the pulley frame rotates to allow you to place the rope onto the pulley. Correct?"
Spoken like an ee-WAH-nah - "Siiiiii.... You do not have to take the theeng off of the carabeener to put thee rope through...."
But ya know, Bryan, I don't rightly know the answers to your other questions! Unfortunately for this post, my Block Roll is cached at Hans Florine's place, in order to save me the cost of the excess baggage on my flights to and from Yosemite.
The pulley appears to be 2 1/2" in the photo of the Kong device above. It is quite big indeed. The bearings are sweet. It's well made, for sure.
I don't like the look of the SRTE Rescuemate because it has the same downfall as the Wall Hauler - you have to take it off of the carabiner to thread the rope because there is no sliding plate in the front like the Block Roll.
The Rescuemate looks to be a slightly smaller 2" pulley, but I'm not sure. But it looks well made. They make some cool stuff.
But I'd take the Kong over this device.
As for the wall worthiness of the Kong, I have no idea what Gary Storrick means about a small bolt and nut that can easily be lost.
There is nothing on the Block Roll you could lose as far as I am aware. [The very strong implication being that if there were, I would have somehow figured out how...]
I'm wondering if Gary was looking at an older model with a design flaw that has since been corrected? The one I've got is ETS!
Has anyone got one of these things in his hands who can answer Bryan's question?
[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2003-01-10 10:16 ]
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timpanogos
Jan 10, 2003, 5:40 AM
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Kong is in major funky mode here in the USA right now - My proshop manager - who has lots of good contacts - is having a very hard time getting/finding any Kong connections at this point.
He said he had a couple of rabbits to try and pull out of the hat. I'll let you know if he can find one.
Chad
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taxexile
Jan 10, 2003, 8:32 AM
Post #33 of 63
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Barrabes www.barrabes.com seem to have Block-rolls in stock, retailing at €70.71, which is about $75.
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rogueclimber
Jan 11, 2003, 2:46 AM
Post #34 of 63
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Can I haul as much beer as I drink?
ROGUE
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passthepitonspete
Jan 11, 2003, 3:48 AM
Post #35 of 63
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What the heck do you need to haul the beer when *I* frickin' haul it for ya, ya crusty BAH-STAHD!
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
And like, welcome aboard, eh?
[Another]reprobate from the infamous Big Sur Ledge Keg Party emerges. We now have 3 1/2 out of five on board]
Note to moderator Andrew: This post and the one above should probably be deleted after a few days, since they are off-topic, but I just couldn't resist..... click on Rogue's profile to see who he is!
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yosemite
Jan 11, 2003, 3:55 AM
Post #36 of 63
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>>Can I haul as much beer as I drink?<<
Can I drink as much beer as I haul?
Sounds like a challenge to me, either way.
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timpanogos
Jan 17, 2003, 8:15 PM
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Yea haw ..
Barrabes delivered my Kong Block roll. I can see why Pete rants about his baby. The splitting top, with the funky hook allowing you to attach a rope without unclipping is a fantastic design! The inner-most diameter of the pulley is 2 and 1/8â€.
And Barrabes had this on my doorstep 3 days after I on-line ordered it! roughly 90 dollars with shipping
Yep – it’s Friday – can’t wait to get out tomorrow!
Chad
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2003-01-17 12:17 ]
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passthepitonspete
Jan 18, 2003, 12:42 AM
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I paid over a hundred bucks for mine from IMO, a caving shop.
Good deal.
Now go out and practise hauling rocks!
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copperhead
Jan 20, 2003, 7:28 PM
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1:1 Hauling, when climbing with a partner:
A Wall Hauler works well for light loads but I do not recommend them for any serious loads. I lead with a Wall Hauler clipped to the back of my harness; an 8 or 9mm trail line is pre-threaded through the hauler and ready to go. I haul a light load consisting of the hardware bag (A5 Haul Pack) and maybe a portaledge (I do not flag my ledge) and a food bucket. Water, snacks, jackets, and beer can be stashed in the top of the hardware bag for quick access. My main hauling system and a fatty haul line are attached to the first sub-haul. This light load is easy to haul and goes quickly (sometimes you can even leg-haul it). I then set-up my main haul system.
I use a CMI RP 104 pulley. Click here for another view. The side-plates are stainless steel and the pulley wheel (sheave) is aluminum (2 3/8” dia.). I originally used an RP 102; the side-plates are aluminum and over time, the aluminum at the biner clip-in point will ‘roll’ or ‘creep’ upward. Sooner or later, the unit will need to be retired. This pulley does, however, have a weight advantage over the RP 104 because it is made of aluminum. The RP 102 is also less expensive and will work for ‘light duty’ in the short-term. The stainless steel side-plates on the RP 104 are stronger and much more durable, but are heavier.
A Petzl Basic ascender works well as the cam mechanism for my hauling system. The micro ascender hangs just below the pulley and is clipped to a doubled, sewn sling that is clipped into the main hauling biner (big locker that the pulley hangs from). Be sure that the pulley does not pinch the sling. Clip a few pins (or other gear) to the bottom of the micro ascender to keep it from moving upward on the haul line. The pulley can be removed while the bag hangs from the micro ascender. I clip a quick-draw to the haul line on either side of the pulley; the other end is clipped to a main anchor point. This does not backup the micro ascender but it does backup the pulley and main hauling biner while you are hauling (presuming you are attached to the haul line with your ascender or Gri-gri (I still use an ascender)).
The Rescuemate looks like a good device, though it does have one drawback. The cam is integrated into the frame of the unit. This means that the cam cannot be removed and used as a backup ascender or for other purposes. The question I had about the removable nut and bolt on the Kong unit was in reference to the removal of the micro ascender/cam mechanism. Does the attachment require a nut and bolt or does it only rely on the two pin/key-lock connections pictured?
Most wall belays are now equipped with 3/8” bolts. I do not use cordalettes (or however you want to spell it…) and power-points for this reason. If the belay is composed of natural gear, I will use slings to equalize pieces to form 2 or 3 mini-power-points. Bolts or mini-pps are connected with the lead line to form the belay. I haul directly off of one 3/8” bolt at bolted belays. This means that you can haul a haulbag right up to the bolt (almost) and not have it hanging way below the belay – easier access. A 2:1 hauling system does not allow you to do this, due to the additional length of the system. As you may have noticed, hauling directly off of one bolt causes biner wear at the biner/bolt hanger contact point. Bolt hangers are kind of sharp and will cut a small v-notch in your aluminum biners over time. To solve this problem, you can use steel biners, one at each belay; leapfrog them from belay to belay. Clip the main hauling biner (big aluminum locker) directly to the steel biner. I have tried an HB steel locker but they are not hard enough; it too developed a hanger notch. The ones that seem to work the best are the large, gold-colored lockers. I have two: one says Bluewater (40 kN) and the other says Omega (53 kN). They look exactly the same. I think they are manufactured by Omega; see Large “D” Steel Screw-Lok. (side note: Vipers make great racking biners – see link)
When climbing with multiple haulbags, splitting the load into two or more hauls and using a 1:1 system enables you to dock the bags at separate parts of the belay. However, it also means that the cleaner must wait for the last bag to leave the lower belay before cleaning. Splitting loads may be of slight help in keeping things organized at belays during the day but it is more important to have easy access to your haulbag at bivies (and vice versa for your partner). Haul both loads from the steel locker; dock the first bag off to one side and the second on the steel locker. I still hang my pigs from loop-style daisies and backup the daisies by tying-off the haul line but I am open to the idea of using load-release knots.
These are just a few other options to what has been mentioned above. ‘Simple’ works for me; use “whatever works” for you.
In a sick and twisted way, hauling can be fun. Enjoy the pain.
Happy hauling!
-------
added more links
[ This Message was edited by: copperhead on 2003-01-22 16:22 ]
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passthepitonspete
Jan 20, 2003, 8:41 PM
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Great hauling tips, Bryan!
Good idea about the steel lockers on the bolts, assuming you want to haul directly from them. To clip anchor bolts, I usually just use standards whose history I know, but then again, I'm an aid climber - every crab I have is chewed to hell. [You should see the looks my gear gets during those infrequent visits to the gym...]
I usually have so darn much stuff that I don't like to haul off of a single bolt, even if it is a 3/8-incher and [obviously] backed up.
The drawback of my system is obvious, though - with a cordalette and a 2:1, my bivis frequently end up hanging six feet or more below my anchors. I never seem to be within reach of my anchors, which is why I advocate in my vertical camping post that you be particularly vell-organicized.
I just hate to leave my ledge once I'm settled in.
I certainly like the convenience a compound pulley offers, not to mention how there is very little slippage when you unweight during hauling strokes. The pulley on the Block Roll is pretty good, though I bet you could buy a better separate one.
It's been a long long time since I have chosen to haul without a compound pulley as Bryan does, so I'm wondering, do you get much slippage if you set it up right? I bet this would take some practice, getting the holding cam properly adjusted.
BIG PULLEYS make hauling much easier, for sure!
When climbing with a partner, I always split the loads into two more-or-less equal weights, and I have two separate haul lines and two separate compound pulleys. [With Tom on Scorched Earth, I hauled the lighter load with the Wall Hauler and the heavier with the Block Roll. [When]2:1 hauling, it doesn't matter which holding device you use.]
Yeah, we may be sick and twisted, but some of us are more sick and twisted than others!!
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!
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timpanogos
Jan 21, 2003, 1:11 AM
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Bryan,
I have a few questions (big surprise).
1.“Hardware bagâ€, contains gear not needed for pitch/day? I assume your wall hauler works great for zipping with the pre-attached 8-9mm. Would you please explain your gear management in a little more detail?’ My clean-aid tag rack alone is over 40 pounds. Leaving your haul gear tagging with the haul line is a great idea.
2. What is a food bucket, literal 5 gal plastic bucket?
3. That CMI pulley does look sweet. I thought my Petzl rescue looked big, but measuring, it’s a measly 1.5†inner-most diameter – compared to the RP 104- almost 2.5 – but then again, I got it for 2:1.
4.It seems that a combo pulley is ‘Simpler’ as you don’t have to setup the doubled sewn sling, weighted basic etc. Why would you want to remove the pulley and leave your haul on the basic anyway? I noticed one scary thing the other day setting up my basic on the 2:1 – you want to tether the thing to you before you start hooking it up, easy to drop, and it about took off down the line on it’s own even after hooking on the line. My min-traxion makes me nervous about this also, because there are no holes to tether it to (but same goes for the grigri).
5. Your QD backup is a great piece of mind trick I would not have thought of. Even though my Kong is rated at 30kn to the anchor and 15kn down each side. When soloing and I rap my haul line (all setup on the pulley) I’ll remember this!
6.On the new Kong that I just got – the micro ascender is non-removable and so has the same drawback as the Rescuemate in this case. And yet as mentioned in item 4 above, IMHO this is an advantage. But then I’m a gear hog, and having a mini-traxion on me, as well as a basic, and rescue pulley for 2:1, (and not counting my tibloc, and normal prusik loops) I’m not too worried about the need of another emergency/general purpose ascender. And Bryan’s way, of leaving most of this on your sub-haul removes some of the weight concern. For me to setup a 2:1 takes 4 pieces of equipment (two pulleys, basic and kong). If you don’t 2:1 it takes 2 piece of gear (Kong and mini-traxion (for subhaul and 2:1)). If I understand your system right, you require 3 pieces – Wall Hauler (for sub haul), CMI pulley and basic. – Ok, in honesty, I will have two more pieces of gear – swivel and pro-traxion sitting at the pig for far-end pig rescue.
Chad
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copperhead
Jan 23, 2003, 12:01 AM
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Chad,
1. The hardware bag contains all excess hardware; this includes the gear that is not used on the pitch that has just been led. I don’t use the Wall Hauler for zipping gear mid-pitch – just yard the gear up, hand over hand and clip it to one of your aiders (etc.), then rack it onto your gear sling. I guess you could use something like a mini-Traxion to make it easier. 40 lbs.?! Sounds like that should include the pin and head rack too. I organize hardware by racking it on separate slings (9/16th supertape runner) that are stored and hauled in the hardware bag and removed as needed (by the belayer) during leads. These racks can be clipped to the inside of your hardware bag if the bag is equipped with internal daisies. If there isn’t room in the hardware bag, I will clip the jumbo cams (#4 Camalot and above) to the bottom of the bag. Racking methods will be dependent on the type of route that you are climbing and how much hardware you have. For instance, this is how I would organize gear on sub-racks for a nail-up:
-cams and nuts (including ball-nuts)
-pins
-heads, rivet hangers, keyhole hangers, beaks, RURPs, and hooks
-Free-biners, extra lockers, quick-draws, screamers (set-up as QDs w/ wiregates), and extra belay/rap device (ATC)
-webbing (slings and tie-offs)
I prefer to lead with a light rack and tag gear when needed. Once you have climbed more than half a rope-length, the haul line will need to be attached to the end of the zip-line for recovery so it is best to tag what you think you will need for the rest of the pitch before you reach half-rope.
2. Yup. A 5-gallon plastic paint bucket it is. The suspension consists of two loops of 1” supertape (for durability), oriented at right angles around the bottom of the bucket. Wrap duct tape (thoroughly) around the bottom and sides of the bucket to secure the webbing to the bucket. Also wrap duct tape around the four lengths of webbing at lid-level to prevent abrasion and around the two loops of webbing at the suspension clip-in point to form a single anchor point (this anchor point should be about 12” above the lid). Drill a small hole in the lid and rig a keeper leash out of 3mm cord; tie one end of the cord to one of the bucket-handle-holes or one of the suspension straps and the other end with an overhand knot, once you have threaded the cord through the hole in the lid. Girth-hitch an old looped daisy to the bucket’s suspension point; clip a small locker to the end of the daisy and a non-locker to the loop closest to the bucket. For hauling, clip the locker to the bottom of one of your haulbags and clip the non-locker to the locker. When you are chillin’ at a belay or at the bivy, hang the bucket from the full length of the daisy and pull it up as needed (clip the non-locker to a second daisy loop at the desired height). A food bucket is great for keeping soft food from getting smashed; store canned food in stuff sacks inside your main haulbag.
3. The 2 3/8” diameter that I mentioned above for the CMI pulleys is an outer diameter; the inside diameter is 2”. You mentioned an inner diameter of 2 1/8” for the Kong pulley. I believe that the Wall Hauler has an outer wheel diameter of 2” and an inside diameter of 1 1/2”, as you have stated for the Petzl Rescue pulley.
4. My ‘Simple’ reference was a generalized one. The haul system is always set-up (i.e. the micro ascender, sling, and pulley are clipped to the main hauling locker). I simply clip the system onto the steel locker and slap a little weight on the micro ascender. Because the micro ascender is always clipped-in, I don’t have to worry about dropping it. Normally, you wouldn’t need to un-clip the pulley from the hauling locker while the bags are on the haul line, though this would be useful if you need to pass a knot and continue to use the same pulley but at a different height at the belay. The pulley does need to be removed from the hauling locker to place the rope through. Don’t drop it!
5. The quick-draw backup is only a partial backup and used while hauling.
6. Whatever works.
[ This Message was edited by: copperhead on 2003-01-22 20:11 ]
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timpanogos
Jan 23, 2003, 5:46 AM
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Thanks Brian. Excellent material above!
Not sure why I'm so heavy - all my non-lockers are lightweight wire gates - except for a hand full of keyless in critical places (wires, nylon, lead etc). That's 3 sets of cams to BD #3.5 (only one set of BD's from .75 to 4) 2 sets of cams from #4 DB to 6 friends, 1 set of alien offsets, 2 sets of HB bronze, 1 set of HB aluminum, 2 sets of regular nuts (I basically have 3 sets of nuts, from rp/micro through normal) and two sets of hooks and cam hooks.
I'm over 40 pounds - but that is also with my kong, grigi, 2 pullies, protraxion and swivel - so taking the haul gear off might drop it to a little under 40, but not much.
I bought Krusty out of his nailing stuff, which must be about another 10 pounds. Dang, and I need a chiesle and punch.
Wow, then throw in the harnesses, slings, aiders, QD's, 60 meter 10.5 lead and 60 meter 11+ static rope.
Of course I’m going to have to learn how to pick out the subset of this for any given climb (Prodigal, 2 sets of cams, 3 sets of nuts, Spaceshot , 2-3 sets of cams, 1 set of nuts etc.), But being a gumby, I would tend to error on the heavy side, especially if I can haul most of it. Open for suggestions.
Chad
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verticallaw
Apr 15, 2003, 9:23 PM
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O.k. maybe I am just retarted but I have read all of the hauling tips but as I have no one that has a clue what I'm doing with me I have no clue if I am doing it right. Does any one have a picture of body position etc while hauling. this would really help me understand how this system works.
Cheers
Mike
I may be a retard but at least I ask questions :?
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copperhead
Apr 15, 2003, 9:45 PM
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There are some nice drawings by John McMullen in the Long and Middendorf Big Walls book. Check it out; it's still a good resource.
Jeeze, this lab is really boring...
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socalclimber
Apr 15, 2003, 11:42 PM
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Ok, now I have a few questions for copperhead.
1) Do you see any problems with using the Petzl Protraction?? They are strong as hell, you don't need to take them off the biner to remove or add the haul line to the system, and they are all one piece. Am I missing something here???
2) I wanna think this one through before I ask it!
Robert
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verticallaw
Apr 16, 2003, 12:28 AM
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thanks copperhead.... where would I find this book? ...is there info online?
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socalclimber
Apr 16, 2003, 12:40 AM
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Big Walls
John Logn
John Middendorf
ISBN 0-934641-63-3
Here's a link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0934641633/qid=1050453315/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-6186955-8409724
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copperhead
Apr 16, 2003, 1:27 AM
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Robert,
1) I don’t own a Pro Traxion, nor have I used one. It’s been a few years since I’ve bought any new climbing gear.
According to the Petzl website, http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicFamille?id=POUL-BLOQ#PRO%20TRAXION the sheave diameter is 38mm, which is about 1 1/2". The Pro Traxion is probably a good substitute for the original Wall Hauler. They are good for light loads or a gear bag. If you are doing any serious hauling, you are better off with a larger pulley like the CMI ones that I mentioned earlier. Larger sheave = better mechanical advantage.
2)?
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socalclimber
Apr 16, 2003, 1:45 AM
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By saying light loads, are we talking 100lbs or less????
Ok, now for #2
2) I'm not sure I understand how you construct your belays. You mentioned not using cordelettes (sp?), but using slings to construct multiple pp's with the climbing rope. I use cordelettes (sp?) and then pull the three (for instance) front strands of the cordellete and girth hitch slings to that to make multiple pp's (something I learned from WB). You also stated you use the lead line as part of your belay setup. I guess I'm a little confused, or am I???
Sorry if the question is not clear, I'm not sure what I'm asking, cause I'm not sure I understand what you said.
Robert
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