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osloklatrer
Aug 6, 2005, 11:35 AM
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Have you got any good arguments for worried parents/wives that Climbing isn't an extremely dangerous sport? (compared to....)
my parents are really worried about me sometimes.
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lucas_timmer
Aug 6, 2005, 11:46 AM
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Even with footbal there are more bones broken than with rockclimbing...
Is that good enough ?
-LT
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shandafin
Aug 6, 2005, 2:26 PM
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My Mom and Dad are the same way. What I've done is continually reinforce with them the multiple safety things we do - double check each other, wear helmets, always tied in, anchors with at least three points, always clipped into an anchor by at least two quick clips, climb within our ability, carry a cell phone, continuously double check the integrity of our gear (especially the rope) before, during and after climbing, etc. I feel that by teaching them about the sport and the safety checks that we use they are coming around. By showing them that I am confident in my skills and comfortable with what I am doing they are becoming comfortable with it. I think for most non-climbers it is the unknown that is most scary - they build it up in their minds into some crazy, horribly dangerous thing - so I've tried to educate/expose them to climbing. I think the next time I'm visiting my mom (she lives in Arizona and I'm in Virginia) I'll take her our on a day trip so she can watch.
Honestly, I think the key is continued education and you illustrating your comfort/confidence/knowledge. They'll come around.
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msamet
Aug 6, 2005, 2:49 PM
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It helped for me to take my parents out toproping, and even to get my dad up on a multipitch route. Then they see the gear in action and realize that the sport's fairly safe. Try it if your parents are willing.
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dingus
Aug 6, 2005, 2:59 PM
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Give em a Gravedigger's Smile and tell em,
"Course it's dangerous! Sheesh! I wouldn't be doing it if it was knitting!"
Roll your eyes and walk off muttering about Zeus and Poesiden. They will quickly learn not to trouble you with such matters.
Cheers
DMT
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grk10vq
Aug 6, 2005, 3:02 PM
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I just tell everyone I wear a seat belt.
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sick_climba
Aug 6, 2005, 3:04 PM
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Mine remind me of it but they never nag me about it... but just say that with climbing more precautions are taking than passing through seccurity in an airport these days!
Climb on
Chris
Ps.... I hope you know they are right climbing is more dangerouse than most sports :?
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feanor007
Aug 6, 2005, 3:05 PM
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my dad's always been in the mountains with me, but my mom always worries, so over a family reunion i took her and some of my cousins top roping, she swas how safe it was and worries alot less now
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lucas_timmer
Aug 6, 2005, 3:42 PM
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In reply to: I just tell everyone I wear a seat belt.
-LT
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celticelement
Aug 6, 2005, 4:03 PM
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Climbing isn't dangerous.
People making mistakes are dangerous.
Back when my parents had a say in the matter they trusted me because I had built up a long history of making safe choices. Though I have had my errors of judgment, (a couple serious) I usually know my limits and stay within them. They had seen that in other things and so had no problem with me climbing, but paid for me to take an outdoor climbing class and then a TR anchor setting class, and let me go. They regularly encourage me to go climbing when I can because I have been completely open with them explaining everything as best I can, so they know what risks I am taking and how I am handling those risks.
By the way, risk is a part of being alive. I have seen parents who will do absolutely anything to maintain a sterile environment - risk free. But most often there is a trust issue with the child who is accident prone, or commonly makes bad judgments. I don't know which follows which, but if you want them off your back - break the cycle. Show them that they can trust you.
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lewisiarediviva
Aug 6, 2005, 4:25 PM
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We took my mother on a weekend climbing trip. We couldn't convince her to try but she relaxed so much about the safety that she took a lot of pictures to take to her sister and explain it all.
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dingus
Aug 6, 2005, 4:27 PM
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In reply to: Climbing isn't dangerous. People making mistakes are dangerous. (snip) By the way, risk is a part of being alive.
Now honestly bro, you don't seriously believe, deep down, that climbing isn't dangerous, do you? The parting shot about risk suggests you know the score.
DMT
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saskclimber
Aug 6, 2005, 4:49 PM
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my arguement when I started climbing when my parents were talking about how dangerous it was, and I couldn't find anything else to convince them was "ok...I'm heading to the gym, I'll see ya later..." either that or some rave about "you're not my mother and I hate you...". I'd suggest soemthign else first though.
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bmxer
Aug 6, 2005, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: Give em a Gravedigger's Smile and tell em, "Course it's dangerous! Sheesh! I wouldn't be doing it if it was knitting!" Roll your eyes and walk off muttering about Zeus and Poesiden. They will quickly learn not to trouble you with such matters. Cheers DMT
hahaha muttering zues and poseidon... what the hell? that's funny dude.
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hortisb
Aug 6, 2005, 5:31 PM
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The question isn't really if climbing is dangerous or not, but rather how can we convince his/her parents that it is not.
I would take your parents to a local gym (if you have one). Not that a gym represents climbing outdoors, but maybe if you had them climb on a few easy walls, they would feel better about you and the sport.
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celticelement
Aug 6, 2005, 5:55 PM
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dingus
Just to ask the question from the other side - is there any time when a climbing accident did not involve faulty judgment?
What I don't mean is that I can consider it 'safe' to be climbing. You are already taking certain risks by being outside - Lightning, rockfall, serious storms. Being on a cliff may even make you more likely to get hit by one of these potential threats. But there is still an element even to these threats that is still a decision about how you will deal with these threats that commonly exist in everyday life. Risk to me means that you could be making a mistake. You could be making a mistake that the lightning will not come close to you. You could be making a mistake in saying that the rope will catch you the next time you fall. You could be making a mistake about any number of things.
Baring the natural threats - other than gravity - you get closer to what I meant that climbing is not inherently dangerous. If a hold you were using comes off in your hand, you made the mistake of trusting that hold, and also clearly made the mistake of not testing the hold enough or going for it blindly. Maybe it is a calculated risk you are willing to take to go for that hold. It may even be a reasonable risk, but if it comes off in your hand it goes from possibly being a mistake [risk] to being an actual mistake [possibly]. Then of course we manage that possibility of being a mistake (risk) by using risk limiting tools and techniques (rope and pro). But even those are possible mistakes (risk) often relying on probability theory and your own judgment (likelihood of fall, consequence of fall, quality of available protection). It is possible to climb sterilely - without much or all risk. We just don't do it. We also don't live the rest of our lives like that, so why should we climb like that. You would have to test every possible threat. You would also have to know about every possible thereat. You would never go anywhere. But, somewhere between that and just blindly trusting everything (Even most of the truly blind trust sort of people will rarely trust themselves enough to climb free solo their first time on the rock.) is where we will all be. Where you are in that spectrum will determine what sort of risks you are capable of handling properly - backing off, or making the conscious decision to take a risk that will kill you if you have made a mistaken judgment.
I am not nearly as experienced as you. I really realize that I may have this all wrong. I just don't see anything as being a truly ‘unavoidable’ mistake. I bet we think nearly the same thing. Just maybe our definitions or way we try to communicate them is different.
So, to me, the climbing isn’t dangerous, the decisions I make may be dangerous – even the decision to climb.
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krisp
Aug 6, 2005, 6:07 PM
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In reply to: The question isn't really if climbing is dangerous or not, but rather how can we convince his/her parents that it is not. I would take your parents to a local gym (if you have one). Not that a gym represents climbing outdoors, but maybe if you had them climb on a few easy walls, they would feel better about you and the sport.
Convince them it's not dangerous. Why? It is dangerous. Although I have to disagree w/ sick climber. There is a plethora of sports where an injury is much more likely to occur on a regular basis (mnt biking, kayaking, skiing, etc). Granted if you screw up climbing the injuries can be very severe. Thus, climbing is dangerous. Convince them you are aware of the risks and are capable of minimizing those risks. Then (as respectfully as you can) expain to them this is something you love and they will have to accept that. As for getting them in the gym, HA! I don't know about your folks, but it'll be a cold day in hell when my mom gets on a wall!
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lewisiarediviva
Aug 6, 2005, 6:07 PM
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In reply to: The question isn't really if climbing is dangerous or not, but rather how can we convince his/her parents that it is not.
Life is dangerous. If we try to convince anyone that it's totally not dangerous, the argument may back fire. I think we are better off showing our parents that we understand the dangers. It's the attitude they looked for before they handed us the car keys.
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epoch
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Aug 6, 2005, 6:11 PM
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Climbing IS inherently dangerous. Didn't you get the pamphlet in the mail?? I mean c`mon look at everything that we do. There is a bunch of room for human error. Using various controls and devices we can limit those risk factors and decrease the odds that we will get hurt. Don't try to convince someone otherwise. Tell them the facts and let them decide for themselves.
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krisp
Aug 6, 2005, 6:20 PM
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Hey celticelement,
First, I'm sorry for calling you a dork. That was uncalled for. I'll save the namecalling for jackasses who deserve it, like Dirt. But really man, you sure take a lot words to make a simple point. If we concede your superior intelligence, will you stop with the thesis statements? I'm not trying do be a dick, I'm just getting headaches from all the reading. :wink:
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lagarita
Aug 6, 2005, 7:08 PM
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[quote="hortisb"]The question isn't really if climbing is dangerous or not, but rather how can we convince his/her parents that it is not. quote]
I found that the best way to easy our loved ones minds are to educate them about what we do. It is very apparent that we're not going to stop climbing because they are worried.
Ive been taking my wife climbing with me, Explaining how this works and why we do that.... The more they know the less they worry. People feel the same way about sharks, we fear them because they are one of the most upredictable and unknown predetors on the planet.
This has also allowed me to climb more often now because, we argue less. :deadhorse:
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kasharp
Aug 6, 2005, 7:22 PM
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i generally just say something along the lines of "well, we're all gonna die sometime ... and what a way to go"
though that might not ease their minds.....
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hortisb
Aug 6, 2005, 7:36 PM
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I'm not saying that climbing isn't dangerous... climbing is inherently dangerous.
I don't know how your Mom is, but mine is constantly worrying. I haven't lived at home in years, but she still continues to worry about me. Mom's need to understand that with proper education, common sense and strict safety practices; climbing can be as "safe" as any other sport. We're not trying to lie to her; but come on' we all have Moms and know how they need to be reassured sometimes.
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hortisb
Aug 6, 2005, 7:38 PM
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In reply to: As far getting them in the gym, HA! I don't know about your folks, but it'll be a cold day in hell when my mom gets on a wall!
Good point! If I do get her on a wall, I'll be sure to post the pictures! :lol:
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celticelement
Aug 6, 2005, 8:09 PM
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Krisp
no hard feelings 8^)
I live in a family that does debate. I only did one season of it. (I liked the research a lot more than the actual debates - I did not like the subjectivity of judgments) But my mother has started two debate clubs in different states and my brother won a debate scholarship at a very tough private school. He has just started taking orders for a debate sourcebook he wrote for this season. So you can imagine the care that is necessary in choosing words around my house. It is hard to make a position fully clear without making good arguments. I am just so used to that, I have trouble pushing the 'Submit' button on anything I do not think is clear enough to get my point across to anyone who reads it - the whole thing.
I keep trying to find unnecessary things I can cut out, but I always seem to end up with huge notes. Plus I still need the typing practice - though I am getting better. :twisted:
See... this one is kind of small.
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bluenose
Aug 7, 2005, 12:20 AM
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Hmmm....My wife only wants to hear that we had fun climbing. As soon as I start talking about any safety steps or issues she tells me she really doesn't want to hear about them. She does that for any dangerous stuff that the kids and I do. She trusts my judgement, that's what it comes down to. You have to get them to trust your judgement. Then there is no argument or discussion necessary. You don't have to prove to them that it is safe, just prove to them that you are capable of making sound, safe and rational judgements.
Now, how you go about that really depends on your past history and how much freedom your parents or SOs are willing to allow once they do trust it.
Goodluck.
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cadaverchris
Aug 7, 2005, 12:44 AM
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i always remind people that getting in your car and driving to a climbing spot is way more dangerous than the actual climbing.
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a_crow
Aug 7, 2005, 2:38 AM
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every thing you do in life is dangerous....everything even typing ona keybaord....you might get carpal tunnel or soemthing...climbing is the same as everything else we do. thats my take on it.
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curt
Aug 7, 2005, 2:57 AM
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Climbing isn't dangerous. Falling, on the other hand, can result in all sorts of unpleasant outcomes. :D
Curt
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bluenose
Aug 7, 2005, 3:25 AM
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In reply to: Climbing isn't dangerous. Falling, on the other hand, can result in all sorts of unpleasant outcomes. :D Curt
Good point. Tell them you are climbing...not falling.
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joentia
Aug 7, 2005, 3:45 AM
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If it was easy everyone would do it. i dont think its anymore dangerous than other sports. you got a better chace getting killed in a car wreck. Its the danger and excitement that keep us doing it.
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sick_climba
Aug 7, 2005, 5:19 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: The question isn't really if climbing is dangerous or not, but rather how can we convince his/her parents that it is not. I would take your parents to a local gym (if you have one). Not that a gym represents climbing outdoors, but maybe if you had them climb on a few easy walls, they would feel better about you and the sport. Convince them it's not dangerous. Why? It is dangerous. Although I have to disagree w/ sick climber. There is a plethora of sports where an injury is much more likely to occur on a regular basis (mnt biking, kayaking, skiing, etc). Granted if you screw up climbing the injuries can be very severe. Thus, climbing is dangerous. Convince them you are aware of the risks and are capable of minimizing those risks. Then (as respectfully as you can) expain to them this is something you love and they will have to accept that. As for getting them in the gym, HA! I don't know about your folks, but it'll be a cold day in hell when my mom gets on a wall!
Climb on
Chris
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chanf
Aug 7, 2005, 5:35 AM
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is there an article explaining the statistics of dying climbing and dying in a car wreck? someone please send me a link on that!
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march
Aug 7, 2005, 7:54 AM
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When I first started climbing my mom and grandma seemed a little worried. This was about the time my birthday was coming up so I asked for them to get me a climbing helmet as a gift. It seemed to ease their fears some and they felt like they were contributing to my safety.
Maybe you can ask them to help you buy some 'safety equipment' - it might make them feel better and might be a good way to get some new gear. "Mom, you know this new rope they just came out with is a lot safer than my old one - I just wish I could afford it right now..." :wink:
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flipnfall
Aug 7, 2005, 11:08 AM
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I worked as an EMT for 5 years and I think I saw more motorcycle accidents per capita of bikers killed than I've ever hear of climbers being killed. Now if you're taking a bike to go climb, then I think you're really taking risks! :wink:
JUST KIDDING
GT
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shnobe
Aug 7, 2005, 2:48 PM
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A good strong argument would be... climbing is safer than heroin, but then again a heroin addiction maybe cheaper. :wink:
in case we have any addicts sorry if I offended...
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feanor007
Aug 7, 2005, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: I had built up a long history of making safe choices.
bingo, that was a big one for my parents, they knew me and had seen the care i demonstrated in other activites.
also, i never tried to convince them climbing was not dangerous. my mom's a nurse and seen untold amounts of head/neck/spine injuries, there is no way i could convince her that dangling from a 10mm cord hundreds of feet above the earth was entirly with out risks. telling your parents climbing isn't dangerous is a lie, they are parents, they'll see through it, or worse they will think your to stupid to understand the risks. instead i've been very open with my parents about the risks of climbing. usually, the night before a climb i'm sitting at the kitchen table going over beta and checking gear. this gives me an oppertunity to explain gear and climbing styles to my mom (she's usually working in the kitchen), to letter her see the care i put into climbing.
Also, taking a little brother helps. My mom will justify all sorts of stuff under the lable of 'quality brother time'
finally i tell her it's her fault javascript:emoticon(':P'),
she never let play video games, forced me to play out side, encouraged me to explore the creeks and hills around our house and first took me to the Red River Gorge :P :P
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feanor007
Aug 7, 2005, 4:02 PM
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double post
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kinosoo
Aug 7, 2005, 4:07 PM
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ha funny^ any how tell them the drive out is the most dangerous part. tell them your top roping everything and don’t buy them accidents in north American mountaineering. the statistics will speak for them self thug with that if they can publish a years work of accidents in one book compared that to some other sports. I would say something like skiing is much more dangerous I would say after working as ski patrol at a small hill we would have on average one or two broken bones a day. compare that to le local crag where I cant think of anyone braking anything in the past few years. And people think skiing is safe
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pecall
Aug 8, 2005, 2:45 PM
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Tell your folks that, yes, climbing is dangerous, but that because the dangers are so blatantly obvious it is ususally possible to judge what risks you decide to take. At least compared to many other activities, for example car driving, where danger is present but not percieved, or for example using certain medications, exposing yourself to the irradiation of a cell phone, and a plethora of other activities where you have to be an expert to even begin to assess the possible dangers involved.
Not so with climbing, any idiot can tell where the dangers are (which is of course only true to a certain extent, but you don't have to tell them that).
Good luck!
And next time they pester you about spending all you money on gear, remind them that it's safety equipment.
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northerndrawl
Aug 8, 2005, 3:23 PM
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A couple of times now Project Adventure (big US adventure education organization) has done an incident survey of sites doing among other activities high ropes, climbing walls, and low ropes. (Before any tries to berate me otherwise, I know high ropes are not the same as climbing--bear with me).
The end result of their surveys was that adventure based activities had an accident rate well below that of any other sport. In fact it had about the same accident rate per 100,000 hours as being a real estate agent.
(I told this story to my real estate agent, who didn't believe me, said what you're doing could kill you when all I do is look at houses, and seconds after saying it, slipped down a very set of steep hard wooden steps in the attic of a rather ancient house. As he looked up at me from the bottom of the steps (thankfully unhurt) I said "See I would have been wearing a rope doing that...")
Now that stat is directly transferable-this is institutional activities--different procedures/training/resources and also different anchor/belaying systems. But much of it is the same, and certainly the consequence of a mistake is the same.
Truly though, those posts above advising modelling good choices, educating about technique and gear, and above all remaining patient with those who do not understand is better than any statistic you could through out. Statistics are rational, fear is not. Competence and trust do more to reassure then numbers.
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feanor007
Aug 8, 2005, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: remind them that it's safety equipment.
heck yah, didn't want to cough up $70ish dollars for a GriGri so i convinced my mom i would die with out it, and guess what, she bought it for me a few weeks later :lol:
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rockmx
Aug 8, 2005, 4:33 PM
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My mom was arrested 12 year ago for DUI when she almost kills a CHP officer and a towing truck driver.
For some reason she never complains about my sport!!!! :roll:
(She doesn’t drink anymore :D )
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villageidiot
Aug 8, 2005, 6:30 PM
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I just came back from my first weekend of leading trad without a more experianced leader. Gave my mom a call and found out one of my schoolmates was dead and another was in serious condition. Those trips to the grocery store can be a real b1tch.
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onbelay510
Aug 8, 2005, 7:20 PM
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I just remind my mom that people don't often get injured while climbing...they usually just die.
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