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Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress
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buckhowdy


Sep 19, 2005, 8:34 PM
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Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress
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I heard that the retro bolts had been chopped on Hair Raiser Buttress in the Granite Basin East of Lee Vining. I was in the area and thought I would take a look. At the base of the climb there was a 8.5X11 note in a plastic bag. The note claimed to be from "The Run-out Climbing Association". It read (from my not so good memory)"... the retro bolts have been chopped, have a nice day." It looked like some one else added to the note "the route is now x rated...please wait for the bolts to be replaced...and they will be replaced." In addition someone admonished "You have poor ethics as well."

Please note the quotes are from memory and may not be completely accurate. This is my first post.


healyje


Sep 19, 2005, 8:52 PM
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I heard that the retro bolts had been chopped on Hair Raiser Buttress in the Granite Basin East of Lee Vining. I was in the area and thought I would take a look. At the base of the climb there was a 8.5X11 note in a plastic bag. The note claimed to be from "The Run-out Climbing Association". It read (from my not so good memory)"... the retro bolts have been chopped, have a nice day." It looked like some one else added to the note "the route is now x rated...please wait for the bolts to be replaced...and they will be replaced." In addition someone admonished "You have poor ethics as well."

Please note the quotes are from memory and may not be completely accurate. This is my first post.

I have been climbing on a rope for about a year. If this route was well bolted, I would love to lead it some day.

No doubt, but if every route were [retro] bolted to everyones' varying definition of "well bolted" (i.e. lowest common denominator) there would be four foot bolt ladder up every route. Folks should leave existing routes alone and climb something else if they aren't up to what's in front of them. You don't mean "better" - you actually mean "safer". It's not a technical question but one of an assumed entitlement [to "safe" climbing].


snoopy138


Sep 19, 2005, 8:53 PM
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Re: Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress [In reply to]
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you should at least edit your post so that it no longer contains a subjective judgement.

edited to add ... and what healyje said.


dingus


Sep 19, 2005, 8:57 PM
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Re: Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress [In reply to]
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It should never have been retroed in the first place.

DMT


iceisnice


Sep 19, 2005, 9:08 PM
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Re: Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress [In reply to]
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its a sport route.....who the hell cares. the whole idea behind bolts is to take the fear and committment out of climbing so who the hell cares if someone wants to add/subtract. i guess in the end, respect the first ascentionists' way of doing it.......unless they were pansies too and bolted it on rappel.


buckhowdy


Sep 19, 2005, 9:23 PM
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I have edited my post, but I don't think I can edit the poll. Sorry!


crazyscuba


Sep 19, 2005, 9:30 PM
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Re: Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress [In reply to]
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hopefully this will help a little.

i've had the joy of climbing this route both ways. using only the original bolts and using all of the bolts. while i was climbing the first time, with the originals only, i noticed that the climb wasn't bolted that well. the stances to clip from were very poor and not well thought out. above almost every bolt there was a much better stance. one of the first ascensionists, vern, agrees on this point and has said that he will not climb it again in its current state.

on the second time around we both had a much more enjoyable experience. the bolts that were put in later were well thought out and solid. they were also put in with the consent of vern, 1 of the 2 people on the fa.

while the person who retrobolted should have contacted both parties on the fa, they didnt. this all stems from a letter in climbing magazine from ton higgins. the first part of the letter he talked about respect for a first ascent. he was very irked by the retrobolts and that came out in his letter. while its very understandable, he must realize that hundreds of people are very happy and thankful that him and vern put the route up.

sometimes we have to realize that an fa is not our property. it is not a piece of art that we can throw away if we dont like how it turned out. it isnt something that we can sell at a gallery. it is, however, something that other people can go and sample. its something that route developers put out there for others to enjoy.

i obviously understand if you disagree. thats the beauty of climbing. if i dont like a route or a bolt, i can chop it. there is nothing saying i cant. it might not be the ethical thing to do but i can still do it. i plead to you all for us to not have another bolt war. it separates a community that is already divided enough. hopefully this stays somewhat civilized and we can all start to see eye to eye.

steve


jerrygarcia


Sep 19, 2005, 10:05 PM
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Re: Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress [In reply to]
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In reply to:
i plead to you all for us to not have another bolt war. it separates a community that is already divided enough. hopefully this stays somewhat civilized and we can all start to see eye to eye.

steve


healyje


Sep 19, 2005, 10:33 PM
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its something that route developers put out there for others to enjoy. i obviously understand if you disagree.

One can only hope that the FA team did it solely for their own pleasure but also weren't trying to be jerks in process of doing the route. But the concept of "route developers" doing what they do for others sucks and is basically [pandering, ego-driven] course setting escaped from gyms.

In reply to:
thats the beauty of climbing. if i dont like a route or a bolt, i can chop it. there is nothing saying i cant. it might not be the ethical thing to do but i can still do it. i plead to you all for us to not have another bolt war. it separates a community that is already divided enough. hopefully this stays somewhat civilized and we can all start to see eye to eye.

In this case they should have gotten the permission of both FA's and if there is a disagreement between FA's then it should probably stay the way it was. One might argue that in on multi-pitch route, the FA of each pitch has sway on that pitch, but better to not get into a pitch-by-pitch cat fight.


rocknroll


Sep 22, 2005, 1:55 PM
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Re: Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress [In reply to]
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I take some of the blame for the retro bolts. Alan Hirahara asked me if I thought it should be retro bolted. I said that was up to the first ascentionist, Vern Clevenger. I spoke to Vern who said, yeah, a few more could be added to make it safer. (Like right off the ground!?!). I relayed this info to Alan and admonished him to talk to Vern first. He did it with my blessing, but never did talk to Vern. The next time I saw Vern he had that hulking countenance. He was not happy. Too many bolts.

As it is, on the first pitch, Alan actually retro bolted a line I had worked on that had one bolt about fifty feet off the ground, left of the actual Hairaiser. The actual route Hairaiser Buttress traverses out to the center of the face to take advantage of some slung chickenheads. So they actually chopped a different route for the first pitch.

Chopping bolts is never justified unless it is done by or with the approval of the first ascensionist. Was it?

In its retro-bolted state, Hairaiser was hardly a sport climb. There were still 20 -30 foot run-outs and that scary opening move. It still was a hairariser any way you look at it.

I think you must weigh the bold achievements of a few against the greater good. It is a beautiful stretch of rock that is moderate in difficulty and has provided thousands with pure enjoyment in its retro bolted state. I am not for a bolt ladder on Hairraiser, but a relatively safe route (R not X) should be on that face to provide enjoyment for the masses.

But believe me, I think we should respect the history of the past. I am not for retro bolting the Bachar-Yerrian, but only because Medlicott has plenty of safe routes near that one. So if it was the only line up the face...would it be a candidate for retro bolting? You know what John and Dave's answer would be...NO!

If you want run-out, try Spuds Gurgling Cock Holster on the dome left of Hairaiser. It was John Sherman's first ground up route with a Bosch. Better talk to Verm if you are thinking of retroing that one! (He's already told me No).

No retro unless the F.A says so;
And Stop! don't chop to be a cop
Don't have hostility,
Communication is the key
for climber harmony.

Let's see the last hostile bolt chopping in the Eastern Sierra was Bill Russel chopping Macho Homo in the Buttermilks because he didn't like the way it finished. Or was it Marty Lewis rearranging the bolts on Environmental Terrorist in the Gorge and then putting his name in on the first ascent for his efforts?

Chopping bolts. Pretty silly when you think about it..


healyje


Sep 22, 2005, 2:39 PM
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Chopping bolts is never justified unless it is done by or with the approval of the first ascensionist.

I would have to disagree completely. Maybe it isn't so in this particular case, but there are routes that go up that should be chopped. Would it be best if the FA did it. Sure. But if they don't or won't, and the line is particularly agregious, then talk with the local community and if the consensus is for it to go, then I would say suck it up, take a little responsibility, and chop it. A very real threat, however, is collective/political paralysis where everyone disagrees with a route but no one is willing to take on the responsibility of chopping it. When that happens things can spiral out of control and then you'll have another Ken Nichols acting as a vigilante in a prelude to another bolt war.


lazyjammin


Sep 22, 2005, 2:47 PM
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Thats too bad about the bolt chopping. Its a fun climb and was still plenty run out even with the few retro bolts. In my opinion the new bolts let more people enjoy the climb, and since the guidebook for the area says which bolts to skip if one wished to do it in the original style even people unfamiliar with the area could do it as such.

Also this seems like a poor route to make a bolt stand on, there are plenty of other climbs which have been either greatly overbolted or retrobolted to a much greater degree. Although this is a classic runout climb, changing it from what was still, after the retrobolting a classic, to something more dangerous seems like a waste of everybodies resources as I imagine it will once again be bolted. The "The Run-out Climbing Association" should choose its routes better to ones that at least a majority could agree should be fixed.


asandh


Sep 22, 2005, 2:55 PM
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:)


healyje


Sep 22, 2005, 4:41 PM
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Nothing ticks me off more about FA's than when 2 guys runnout a new FA that's significantly below their grade level just so they can pretend their balls are big. That kind of action ruins a lot of perfectly good climbing real estate. Runnout an FA at your limit and I'll have a lot of respect for you whatever that limit is.

I'm not into sport climbing or bolted routes but if someone is going to go through the exercise, then I would have to agree that, on bolted routes, if you are running it out on easy stuff for your abilities you're posing.


buckhowdy


Sep 22, 2005, 5:45 PM
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I must admit I'm not skilled enough to lead this route. I'm not even sure if I can follow it. A very good climber has offered to lead me. I've only top roped 5.9 a couple of times, and followed a 3 pitch 5.9 once. Since this route has a five ***** star rating in the guide books, does that suggest that maybe a marginally competent follower should go for it?

Many folks have rated this climb five ***** star. Was it due to it's unique characteristics, or the fact that nothing in the vicinity even comes close? Did this highest rating come due to the FA? Essentially, is it a five ***** star climb because of the buttress or the FA?


moose_droppings


Sep 22, 2005, 7:46 PM
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Could you imagine if people climbed trees instead of rocks:

OK, I retro routed Old Leaning Pine route today. There was a bad stance at the chicken head knot so I chopped 2 branches there out of the way for more room. The dyno move to the rough knob above the 5th limb has been sanded, no more fingernails breaking on that one. Between the 9th and 10th branches was to much of a runout, a step has now been bolted in for everyones saftey. The rap station has also been retro'ed with 2, 3/4", bolts drilled all the way thru and doubled nuted with washers. We still need more funds to build a tower next to Leaning Pine to run a cable over to the top of it and pull it over and striaghten it up.
Have fun and safe climbing out there.


rocknroll


Sep 22, 2005, 8:04 PM
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Re: Retro bolts chopped at Hair Raiser Buttress [In reply to]
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Agreed. Ultimately the consensus of the climbing community should be the final arbitrator. But if the route really is that offensive, what does that say for the first ascentionist? Shouldn't embarrassment be enough to keep the drill tucked away and not create a bosch(botch) job in the first place. But if a route is in and is obviously being enjoyed by people, why chop it? Chopping bolts IS silly. This is supposed to be recreation, remember?

I think it is time to hear from Vern and Tom Higgins.

(By the way, these guys were the Tuolumne run-out masters at the time of the ascent.)

( And yes, it is an exceptional route on beautiful case hardened granite in an area that is notoriously pretty grainy rock)


healyje


Sep 22, 2005, 9:19 PM
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In reply to:
I think it is time to hear from Vern and Tom Higgins.

I would agree, maybe even talk them into to going out and revisiting it themselves to do it up whatever they would consider "right".


chateaurico


Sep 22, 2005, 9:42 PM
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Like Buckhowdy, this is my first post.

I visited Hairraiser Buttress on Sept 6, 2005, the last day of a four day road trip on awesome, new (for me) crags east of Mammoth. The first pitch was to be my lead, that being the "money" pitch. Background: I am an intermediate climber, and have led similar 5.9 slab, such as Dike Route and Crest Jewel, but I was having head problems having sustained a 25 foot trad fall a couple weeks previous. Nonetheless, the previous days sharpened me and I was (marginally) ready so I roped up, hopped onto the boulder from which you start and spotted that note. Buckhowdy had it about right. It said that bolts were removed to "restore routes to their original glory" or something like that. It said it was an X rated route now and to "have a nice rest of your day!". So I untied and my partner led and I followed. Here's my experience, as the 2nd (imagining I was leading). The 5.9 move is off the deck, and you clip the first bolt after you make it, about 10 feet up. It was actually not bad. Then you climb 5.7 and 5.8 slab for another 40 feet or so (guessing). You do the math: you are decking if you fall for most of the way to that next clip. The first clip seemed barely worth it. The climbing stays sustained and committing all the way to the first anchor, about 140 feet up, 3 bolts total. My partner said he felt no fear, but it was one of the only times I've seen him grab a draw prior to clipping! The next two pitches did not feel particularly runout to us, and there were more bolts and slightly easier climbing. The climbing, great, in a gorgeous setting. The bolt removal was puzzling: I found removed bolts elsewhere, but the one that was really needed to make the route reasonably safe was removed, bolt number 2. I have a thing about decking, having broken my leg and now into my 50's.
So, I kind of wish the Runout Climbing Association would have chosen different bolts to remove SO PEOPLE DON'T DIE BECAUSE OF YOUR ACTIONS (just in case a member of the "Association" is reading...)


crazyscuba


Sep 22, 2005, 9:53 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I think it is time to hear from Vern and Tom Higgins.

I would agree, maybe even talk them into to going out and revisiting it themselves to do it up whatever they would consider "right".

vern has revisited it and has said he will not climb it in its current state. tom has, to my knowledge, not revisited it. he wrote a letter to climbing noting that he was very displeased. that is what sparked this in the first place

steve


healyje


Sep 23, 2005, 9:13 PM
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I meant they should go out and fix it to their liking and that should resolve the matter I should think...


lensign


Nov 22, 2005, 5:29 AM
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Ok, so 2 days ago my wife and I finished up work, drove like crazy, and got to Hair Raiser with barely just enough daylight left to climb, perhaps with a headlamp descent... only to find it chopped. Thanks, ROCA! We really appreciate your efforts to protect the quality of our climbing experience and the "pride" of the first ascent party's scare-fest. What makes you think it is your place to impose your "ethics" on the rest of us? Why couldn't you just skip the bolts you don't like as suggested in the guidebook and let the rest of us make up our own minds? Better yet, why not just solo everything so you can feel like you are even more superior to the rest of us?

You know, if you value boldness so much, how come you don't put your name on your "work" so we can all let you know how much we appreciate you?

Not wanting to die but seriously itching to climb after a 3 hour drive, I climbed a (protected) route immediately to the left of HRB, traversed over to the first pitch anchor, and toproped. While the climbing is not particularly hard, the route is indistinct, in places insecure and sustained, resulting in an extremely dangerous runout to the second bolt. You would definitely not survive the fall.

I think this concept of "ownership" of routes by the first ascent party has to be reconsidered. Do we never revise/improve a trail or road after it is built? Even the Bible has been revised, and I doubt seriously that it detracts from the underlying value of it's message. I don't disagree with trying to get permission of the first ascentionists, but how can someone get permission from the first ascentionists after they are dead? What, exactly is a "consensus of the climbing community" and how do you go about obtaining a consensus? What climbers consider consensus is typically the opinion of a few voiciferous/famous climbers who are usually a lot more sklled than the rest of us. How well does a consensus of the elite work for you? Is their opinion somehow more "right" because they climb hard or have put up some routes? How about changing the concept of a first ascent as a gift, not a posession?

I agree whole heartedly with the person who said poorly protected routes put up by elites climbing well below their abilities is a shameful waste of scarce high quality climbing real estate.

I climbed HRB last year and it certianly didn't seem over bolted then. Now I wouldn't touch the thing. I think the climbing community would be well served if Hair Raiser was simply converted to an R-rated route by adding sufficient protection between the first and second bolt such that you won't hit the ground if you fall. How about it?

Lars


healyje


Nov 22, 2005, 8:46 AM
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chateaurico and Lars,

Sounds like you did the right thing in turning over the lead to someone else. And even though your friend "grabbed a draw" he sounds like he made it up alright. Ditto, Lars, to your decision to do the route next to it and top rope the pitch. Just because you, me or anyone else might not want that particular sharp end doesn't mean we should be tossing one of the bedrocks of climbing out. Once you do that it becomes an even messier discussion of what is the right bolt spacing. One more bolt might do it for you, but someone else might want two or three. You open up a pandora's box of who "sets" the standard for bolt spacing and if ever there was a context where "lowest common denominator" ruling an argument you can bet this is one. This route is a bit of anomolly relative to the disagreement by the FA's over what is appropriate, this is unfortunate as the best solution would still be for them to go out and fix it to their liking. As it is, it's one route - I'd say climb something else until this finds a resolution.,


dingus


Nov 22, 2005, 9:10 AM
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I have a sincere question for you Lars... who owes you a protected ascent of Hair Raiser Buttress again?

I think the FA party has primary decision rights concerning their ascents. I think the community also has a say.

But this is western America and things never got done through committee out here. Justice in the west is one climber at a time, one route at a time.

Crying out to the gods about such injustice is 'so east coast.' We just ain't got the rock cops out here to ride in on the white horse and arrest the vigilantes. And WE LIKE IT THAT WAY.

I suggest to the folks who went out there and turned bitterly away...

if it means so much to YOU, then head on out there again with your hammer and drill, and fix the route to your satisfaction.

The chopper exercised her 'right' to chop. You can also exercise your 'right' to drill.

Vigilante justice, that's how we roll. If you involve the authorities, we all lose. Revel in our 'system' as its chaos is quite beautiful if you stand back and consider the whole picture.

Sucks though, to get shut down like that.

DMT


dingus


Nov 22, 2005, 9:11 AM
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I have a sincere question for you Lars... who owes you a protected ascent of Hair Raiser Buttress again?

I think the FA party has primary decision rights concerning their ascents. I think the community also has a say.

But this is western America and things never got done through committee out here. Justice in the west is one climber at a time, one route at a time.

Crying out to the gods about such injustice is 'so east coast.' We just ain't got the rock cops out here to ride in on the white horse and arrest the vigilantes. And WE LIKE IT THAT WAY.

I suggest to the folks who went out there and turned bitterly away...

if it means so much to YOU, then head on out there again with your hammer and drill, and fix the route to your satisfaction.

The chopper exercised her 'right' to chop. You can also exercise your 'right' to drill.

Vigilante justice, that's how we roll. If you involve the authorities, we all lose. Revel in our 'system' as its chaos is quite beautiful if you stand back and consider the whole picture.

Sucks though, to get shut down like that.

DMT


dingus


Nov 22, 2005, 9:13 AM
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I have a sincere question for you Lars... who owes you a protected ascent of Hair Raiser Buttress again?

I think the FA party has primary decision rights concerning their ascents. I think the community also has a say.

But this is western America and things never got done through committee out here. Justice in the west is one climber at a time, one route at a time.

Crying out to the gods about such injustice is 'so east coast.' We just ain't got the rock cops out here to ride in on the white horse and arrest the vigilantes. And WE LIKE IT THAT WAY.

I suggest to the folks who went out there and turned bitterly away...

if it means so much to YOU, then head on out there again with your hammer and drill, and fix the route to your satisfaction.

The chopper exercised her 'right' to chop. You can also exercise your 'right' to drill.

Vigilante justice, that's how we roll. If you involve the authorities, we all lose. Revel in our 'system' as its chaos is quite beautiful if you stand back and consider the whole picture.

Sucks though, to get shut down like that.

DMT


asandh


Nov 22, 2005, 9:42 AM
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:)


dingus


Nov 22, 2005, 9:47 AM
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In reply to:
Dingus
I know you feel strongly about your words, but did you have to add them to the thread 3 times. :?: :)

No worries. it'll just be harder to go back and hide what I wrote.

In terms of the rest of your response...


DMT


boltdude


Nov 22, 2005, 10:17 AM
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Lars, bummer that you didn't get to lead it, and great that you managed to get around to the pitch 1 anchor and TR.

But healyje has it right - once you start adding bolts, there's no end in sight. At Owens, the classic 5.9 sport climbs on Great Wall of China were "tightly bolted" when they were put up, yet only 15 years later, they are considered "runout". The Dike Route in Tuolumne used to be standard fare, a bit "spicy" - now it's "heinous & death-defying". Changing perceptions.

So you add a couple bolts on a long runout. Then a few years later, someone else adds a few more. Then more bolts get added - why not?

Already, modern gym climbers come into slab climbing with 1) no footwork, 2) expectation of tight bolting. If we start retrobolting stuff, then why not have a bolt every 5 feet? After all, there are slab routes with bolting that tight already (bolt-ladder sections on hard slab, even 1970s slab in Tuolumne).

Respecting the FA is the way to go. Otherwise, it's a free-for-all. I got a lot of flak in the "hard-core" climbing community for putting up Shagadelic on Medlicott Dome, which had two 150' pitches of face with 10 bolts each (I added bolts so my long-time FA partner could come back, lead it with his friends, and have fun). Yet I've had people suggest that I add even more bolts to Shagadelic to make it safer - on the same day another person called it "way over-bolted".

But even in Tuolumne, it was not chopped since it was NEW. There is plenty of terrain around with awesome climbing. We should respect the vision of the FA team. If it was put up by 5.11 slab climbers and is heinously runout for a 5.9 climber, don't complain about it - instead, leave it until you climb 5.11 slab and can do it comfortably.

Our rating system does not include a seriousness factor. So people who do a bunch of 5.9's expect to be able to do other 5.9's - even if the type or committment of the climbing is completely different. If our rating system did include a seriousness factor, I expect this discussion would be quite different.


kalcario


Nov 22, 2005, 10:51 AM
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The big fallacy about respecting the style of the FA is that the FA was carrying a drill and bolts and could stop and drill whenever he felt like it, so saying that subsequent ascents are obligated to climb the route the way the FA did it doesn't quite hold water, because subsequent ascents can't drill where ever they want. It is easier psychologically to leave the ground knowing you can stop and drill where ever you want, than it is to be forced into running it out based on someone's arbitrary notion of what's reasonable/dangerous/whatever. In some ways the subsequent ascent is *more* committing - if the rock is textured enough so that you can't see the bolts from below, and aren't really sure which way to go to get to them, then in my book you're taking more of a chance than the FA, who was carrying a drill.

And you guys who complain about eliminating the deathfall potential of the runouts by adding bolts? You should just be free soloing the route, since the way it's bolted now, you're essentially doing that anyway. Then it doesn't matter if it's retro-bolted. That way, you still get to die if you fall, and everybody else who ropes up for it and falls gets to live. Win-win.


dingus


Nov 22, 2005, 11:24 AM
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In reply to:
The big fallacy about respecting the style of the FA is that the FA was carrying a drill and bolts and could stop and drill whenever he felt like it, so saying that subsequent ascents are obligated to climb the route the way the FA did it doesn't quite hold water, because subsequent ascents can't drill where ever they want.

There is nothing at all preventing subsequent parties from carrying a drill. I know if I did the 2nd ascent of a wall route I'd DAMN SURE take a bolt kit. If I were ever tempted to go to Hair Raiser now, I'd DAMN SURE take the kit along as well.

If I thought I was going to die and a bolt could save me? I'd put it in and I wouldn't apologize for it either.

But I grew climbing in a time when we had to do for ourselves. We didn't have route setters and MANAGEMENT to settle our disputes.

Kalcario's way implies management, authority, rules. FUCK THAT. I don't even think he wants that end result, any more than I do.

I ask again, who among us is OWED a risk free ascent of Hair Raiser???

Not a damn one of you. Question answered.

DMT


billcoe_


Nov 22, 2005, 12:03 PM
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Having poor morals and stlye, I probably should be spouting off about this.


In reply to:
The big fallacy about respecting the style of the FA is that the FA was carrying a drill and bolts and could stop and drill whenever he felt like it, so saying that subsequent ascents are obligated to climb the route the way the FA did it doesn't quite hold water, because subsequent ascents can't drill where ever they want. It is easier psychologically to leave the ground knowing you can stop and drill where ever you want, than it is to be forced into running it out based on someone's arbitrary notion of what's reasonable/dangerous/whatever. In some ways the subsequent ascent is *more* committing - if the rock is textured enough so that you can't see the bolts from below, and aren't really sure which way to go to get to them, then in my book you're taking more of a chance than the FA, who was carrying a drill.

Not true. Spoken like a person who never did a ground up FA and drilled on lead with a hand drill. laboring to try to stand on a dime for 20-30 min while your forarms and other body parts cramped and you are staring at a huge fall until that bolt gets in.

In reply to:
And you guys who complain about eliminating the deathfall potential of the runouts by adding bolts? You should just be free soloing the route, since the way it's bolted now, you're essentially doing that anyway. Then it doesn't matter if it's retro-bolted. That way, you still get to die if you fall, and everybody else who ropes up for it and falls gets to live. Win-win.

And you are free, as we all are, to go get on another route.


kalcario


Nov 22, 2005, 12:37 PM
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*Not true. Spoken like a person who never did a ground up FA and drilled on lead with a hand drill. laboring to try to stand on a dime for 20-30 min while your forarms and other body parts cramped and you are staring at a huge fall until that bolt gets in.*

I've certainly repeated more than my share of those kind of routes, though, and I know that those routes are runout for 2 reasons: because the difficulty you mention in stopping and drilling was more of a factor in creating the runouts than any concious decision in creating a bold route, and, most importantly, that the FA'er *was climbing well below their limits on the runouts*. If you're going to bolt something, it only makes sense to bolt it so that you don't lethally deck. There's tons of routes in Tuolumne that are unprotected free solo's with no bolts - nothing wrong with that, I respect that style; but bolting something AND creating groundfall runouts, as seems to be the case with HRB? That's a botch job and should be fixed.


kubi


Nov 22, 2005, 2:42 PM
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The biggest problem with the blind deference to the FAist, at least in my opinion, is that it is so easy for the FAist to do a bad job bolting and make the route unclimbable for anyone else. If Micheal Reardon has the FA on a 5.11 and bolts it at his comfort level....it'll be unclimbable by 99% of the climbers out there...so in effect he just screwed us all over.

Maybe all you guys that say, "never retrobolt!" just say it so that some n00b with a Bosch doesn't go out and cover your crag with stainless steel...but if you truly believe that retrobolting is never appropriate....you are wrong, there are definite circumstances were, FAist be damned, the climb needs more bolts.


fracture


Nov 22, 2005, 3:12 PM
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That way, you still get to die if you fall ...

Classic. :lol:


fracture


Nov 22, 2005, 3:20 PM
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Not true. Spoken like a person who never did a ground up FA and drilled on lead with a hand drill. laboring to try to stand on a dime for 20-30 min while your forarms and other body parts cramped and you are staring at a huge fall until that bolt gets in.

But you're omitting that the only reason people do (or perhaps "did") put up routes that way is because they were too blinded by their "ground up" religion to realize that it is way easier to get the job done by rapping in from the top.

I realize it is hard---but that it is precisely the reason I think it is lame. (And, in fact, I'd say it is downright unethical if you are doing it in an area with very limited rock, do not want people to add bolts to it, and the result is a dangerous route).

In reply to:
And you are free, as we all are, to go get on another route.

Except if you live in an area with limited climbing (of that particular angle/style). Basically, in that case, if we accept your view of first ascentionist rights, you have to just live with whatever the "botch jobs" (as kalcario put it) from decades ago (by people who don't really even climb anymore) gave you.


kalcario


Nov 22, 2005, 4:12 PM
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It's all kind of a moot point anyway because that style of low-angle face climbing where you actually can stop, take both hands off the rock and drill, derisively known nowadays as "dome-aneering", "stink-bugging", or "tit-sagging", fell out of favor with the climbing masses 20 years ago, as did the mentality that favored contrived, ground-up ethics over difficulty. Sport climbers freeing previously unthinkable trad pitches on El Cap is the most obvious proof that prioritizing ethics over difficulty was the wrong way to go and hindered the progression of the sport. What I'm saying is, it's a little hard to respect that runout, ground-up ethic that says thou shalt not retrobolt, when historical perspective proves that ethic was a bad direction and a retrograde step anyway.


jv


Nov 22, 2005, 4:39 PM
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Happily, for the time being at least, the route is restored to its original condition, more or less. Whoever climbs it will have to deal not only with the physical challenge of the climbing, but the mental and emotional challenge of the runouts as well.

The next party who considers taking it upon themselves to add bolts without permission of the FA party would do well to think twice, given that any added bolts will likely meet the same fate.


dingus


Nov 22, 2005, 4:45 PM
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In reply to:
But you're omitting that the only reason people do (or perhaps "did") put up routes that way is because they were too blinded by their "ground up" religion to realize that it is way easier to get the job done by rapping in from the top.

There are many reasons for a ground up style of first ascent, relevant and in practice today, religious procedures (and trolling) notwithstanding.

Kalcario spoke about advancement of the sport, equating difficulty to progress. Yet you say ground up FAist are too blind to see there is an easier way.

Hmmm. Harder, easier, harder, easier, I get confused!

Could it be, oh wise sport climbers, that not all of us share all the same motivations to climb? GASP! Is that even remotely possible in your sport climbing worlds, that others may seek different challenges, different notions of difficulty?

Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so!

I did one O deez titty saggers about a month ago. I did it precisely BECAUSE it was harder to do that way. I am well acquainted with other methods, have employed, will employ them again. Just as I'll do more ground up ascents too.

I had more reasons than increased difficulty too, based upon the local climbing community styles in practice at that cliff, by those who introduced me to the place. I'm sorry these rubes don't see it your way either, color it backwater. But it would be lower than whale shit to go invited to someone's ground up style cliff and start rap bolting, you'd have to be a piece of shit to do that. I'd walk away first. Call it a stylistic consideration if you prefer. I call it respect.

Not that you would, at the cliff in question. It wouldn't interest you I'm sure, but then again, I struggle to understand why either of you even opened this thread about a lowly non-advancement 5.9 titty sagger to begin with. And I don't think either one of you would be nearly as disrespectful in the flesh either. I bet we'd get on famously and you wouldn't care in the least about my pitiful routes. Nor, believe me, would I care about your 'sport advancing' sends. I don't even look at the pictures anymore.

None of these routes are going to 'advance the sport.' I didn't start climbing to 'advance the sport' anyway. The more I think about it, the less advancing your sport matters to me. I generally prefer to advance my own climbing and leave it at that.

DMT


kalcario


Nov 22, 2005, 5:01 PM
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* Whoever climbs it will have to deal not only with the physical challenge of the climbing, but the mental and emotional challenge of the runouts as well.*

You are free to experience all the drama you want whether it's retrobolted or not, simply by free soloing it, which is what you're doing now anyway, ropeless or not, because of the way it's bolted. What point do the bolts that are there now serve if they don't keep you from hitting the ground?


fracture


Nov 22, 2005, 5:27 PM
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In reply to:
Kalcario spoke about advancement of the sport, equating difficulty to progress. Yet you say ground up FAist are too blind to see there is an easier way.

Hmmm. Harder, easier, harder, easier, I get confused!

Getting the bolts in is not climbing rocks. Why would you want to make it hard? (Unless, of course, you are more interested in that than you are in climbing rocks).

In reply to:
Could it be, oh wise sport climbers, that not all of us share all the same motivations to climb?

Yup. I have met lots of rock climbers who seem to have no real interest in climbing rocks (either because they prefer playing with little widgets, or whatever).

But, how about the point in Joe's last post? A route like the type he is describing was recently retro-bolted at one of my local crags. There was an editors' note in the last Rock & Ice (written by Jeff Jackson) complaining about it---it was a Duane Raleigh FA. (Of course, the note did not describe the retarded way the route had been bolted).

What logically coherent reason is there to want bolted routes where falling from the crux means you die? If you want to die if you fall, why not just solo it?


healyje


Nov 22, 2005, 5:37 PM
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...and make the route unclimbable for anyone else.

A route that has been climbed, and that you simply choose not to climb, is not then in any sense "unclimbable" because of your choice.


kalcario


Nov 22, 2005, 5:38 PM
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*There are many reasons for a ground up style of first ascent, relevant and in practice today, religious procedures (and trolling) notwithstanding.*

Of course. If you can't run it out/free solo at your local crag, you'll never be an alpine climber, nor is it practical or even efficient to rap bolt everything - most of Owen's River Gorge was drilled ground up. I'm not saying runout slabs are irrelevant or that they shouldn't exist - just that if you're gonna bolt something, the bolts should at least prevent lethal groundfalls, otherwise why bolt it at all?

*But it would be lower than whale s--- to go invited to someone's ground up style cliff and start rap bolting, you'd have to be a piece of s--- to do that. I'd walk away first. Call it a stylistic consideration if you prefer. I call it respect.*

Except that that happens all the time, that most sacred cow of trad climbing, the b-y in Tuolumne, is surrounded by sport routes. There's a 17 bolt 5.11 single-pitch sport route a few feet left of the pitch the thread is about, fer chrissakes.

*And I don't think either one of you would be nearly as disrespectful in the flesh either. I bet we'd get on famously and you wouldn't care in the least about my pitiful routes.*

I knew that titty-sagger stuff would reel in a couple...

*Nor, believe me, would I care about your 'sport advancing' sends.*

I don't think I've ever done one of those...unless belaying one counts...


jv


Nov 22, 2005, 5:39 PM
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"What point do the bolts that are there now serve if they don't keep you from hitting the ground?"

The bolts reduce the risk that I will die if I fall. As someone who was just there has pointed out, the risk of ground fall is before reaching the first bolt, and for several feet before clipping the second bolt. I don't care to free solo a route this hard. But since I can't climb Bachar-Yerian, this satisfies my urge to dance on the edge within my bounds of reason.


fracture


Nov 22, 2005, 5:41 PM
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*Nor, believe me, would I care about your 'sport advancing' sends.*

I don't think I've ever done one of those...unless belaying one counts...

Worked for Yerian.... ;)


kalcario


Nov 22, 2005, 6:05 PM
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*Worked for Yerian*

which would entail belaying the belayer, which is as much involvement as Yerian had with the b-y...


dingus


Nov 22, 2005, 6:06 PM
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In reply to:
just that if you're gonna bolt something, the bolts should at least prevent lethal groundfalls, otherwise why bolt it at all?

I can't speak for the route or the FA party, but on balance I agree with you. And yet, I think there has to be room for the Mark Wilford's of the world too. A few Hair Raiser Buttresses aren't going to kill us or reduce our opportunities in the sport, are they?

In reply to:
Except that that happens all the time, that most sacred cow of trad climbing, the b-y in Tuolumne, is surrounded by sport routes. There's a 17 bolt 5.11 single-pitch sport route a few feet left of the pitch the thread is about, fer chrissakes.

I assure you Kalcario, that's not my line. I've never drilled a hole anywhere in Tuolumne country.

And I like the titty sagger bit! and the dome thing too. Thanks man.

Cheers
DMT


dingus


Nov 22, 2005, 6:10 PM
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But, how about the point in Joe's last post? A route like the type he is describing was recently retro-bolted at one of my local crags. There was an editors' note in the last Rock & Ice (written by Jeff Jackson) complaining about it---it was a Duane Raleigh FA. (Of course, the note did not describe the retarded way the route had been bolted).

You got all that from Kalcario's post?

Haven't read that R&I. You know who gave me my name lol?

DMT


fracture


Nov 22, 2005, 6:23 PM
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In reply to:
But, how about the point in Joe's last post? A route like the type he is describing was recently retro-bolted at one of my local crags. There was an editors' note in the last Rock & Ice (written by Jeff Jackson) complaining about it---it was a Duane Raleigh FA. (Of course, the note did not describe the retarded way the route had been bolted).

You got all that from Kalcario's post?

:lol:

In reply to:
Haven't read that R&I. You know who gave me my name lol?

Guess why I threw the author's name in there... :P


dingus


Nov 22, 2005, 6:29 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
But, how about the point in Joe's last post? A route like the type he is describing was recently retro-bolted at one of my local crags. There was an editors' note in the last Rock & Ice (written by Jeff Jackson) complaining about it---it was a Duane Raleigh FA. (Of course, the note did not describe the retarded way the route had been bolted).

You got all that from Kalcario's post?

:lol:

In reply to:
Haven't read that R&I. You know who gave me my name lol?

Guess why I threw the author's name in there... :P

Nice one! Was it about those OK. routes Raleigh did back in the day? I suspect the 'limited resource' part of your thoughts comes to the fore if that is the case. I suspect if I lived and climbed there, I might take issue with the bulk of the climbing resources being locked up in death routes too.

I owe that dude big time for my name. Some day I hope to get the chance to thank him personally.

DMT


kubi


Nov 22, 2005, 7:53 PM
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In reply to:
...and make the route unclimbable for anyone else.

A route that has been climbed, and that you simply choose not to climb, is not then in any sense "unclimbable" because of your choice.

Any route that requires an unprotected and difficult bit of climbing with a potential for groundfall would be "unclimbable" by me...and I'd imagine nearly all other climbers. I have no idea what level you climb at, but chances are there are people that free-solo at your current level. Would you be pleased if they ran some laps at your local crag, putting up FA's...effectevely cutting you off from ever climbing there?

Now, don't get bent out of shape on this, I doubt this situation occurs very often and under most circumstances I'd be in favor of respecting the FAist's style. All I'm saying is that the attitude that the FAist is always right is just plain wrong.


fracture


Nov 22, 2005, 9:59 PM
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Nice one! Was it about those OK. routes Raleigh did back in the day? I suspect the 'limited resource' part of your thoughts comes to the fore if that is the case. I suspect if I lived and climbed there, I might take issue with the bulk of the climbing resources being locked up in death routes too.

It was regarding a route (actually two, I think, but only one was DR's) at Enchanted Rock. It's the only granite crag in central texas, there's only one "real", tall slab wall there, and only a small section of it contains sustained 5.10 or harder routes, so the resource is very limited (and apparently unlike Joe, I actually like climbing low-angle rock on occasion---good way to like, rest the fingers and shit, eh?).

Another funny thing (IIRC, also not mentioned in the editorial) about this story is that the people who did the retro (actually, an elected committee here) were all under the impression that they had FA approval. But it turned out to be miscommunication.


fracture


Nov 22, 2005, 10:04 PM
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But by the way, many (probably most) of the routes have some retro bolts. So it's not like it's locked up in death routes (anymore). (Nearly all of them run out around 35ft on very easy (5.6-5.8) sections at the top, however).

Not to hijack this thread or anything... (heh)


lensign


Nov 23, 2005, 2:29 AM
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Yup, dingus, you're right - no one owes me a safe ascent. I won't argue that. I just agree with kalcario and fracture when they say that a route if it is going to be bolted at all, should be bolted well enough to prevent a lethal ground/ledgefall. Runouts higher up on the route where you might get a little scraped up and soil your panties if you fell - that's ok with me.

Dingus, I'm a bit confused where you stand. On Sept 20th you wrote that HRB "never should have been retrod", then in your last post you said if you were going to climb it now you'd "sure as heck bring a bolt kit". So is retrobolting without permission wrong, or is it ok but only when you're seriously scared? If you added a bolt to ease your mind, would you go back and remove it?

I agree with the writer who said it's time we heard from Vern and Tom, specifically, is it ok to take the X-rating out of HRB? I'd be willing to contact them myself if I had any idea how.

BTW: How come no one uses their real names on this site?

Lars


erclimb


Nov 23, 2005, 4:02 AM
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i'm against overbolting, but i also oppose chopping...if somebody feels that extra bolts are needed for safety reasons AND that person bolts on lead, then what's the problem? the integrity of the FA is not compromised...if you don't like the new bolts, don't clip them--that will give you bragging rights ("i sent the original") while others can enjoy the route retro-style...the FA belongs to those bold climbers, but the route belongs to nobody/everybody


dingus


Nov 23, 2005, 7:40 AM
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Dingus, I'm a bit confused where you stand. On Sept 20th you wrote that HRB "never should have been retrod", then in your last post you said if you were going to climb it now you'd "sure as heck bring a bolt kit". So is retrobolting without permission wrong, or is it ok but only when you're seriously scared?

Hi Lars

Let me see if I can explain my thought process on this. I'll start with personal responsibility. As stated, no one owes me a safe ascent, period. They don't owe me any routes, any climbing time, a gym membership, nothing.

So when I start up a rock, any rock, I do so with the intention of assuming 100% responsibility my own ass. Now I compromise that ideal, often. I'll clip bolts I didn't place and then run it out above them for example. But when I choose to do that, I am still exercising my personal responsibility to protect my own ass.

As a leader, on any given piece of rock, it is up to me to safeguard my own passage or suffer the consequences. I can't cede the consequences so I won't cede the responsibility.

That's the basic framework of my thinking.

Now to retrobolting. I'm afraid I have no pat answer, no concrete position from which to assail those who disagree. I happen to believe in situational ethics in our sport. What would represent bad style retrobolting in one place would or could be a community spirited positive in another. I'm down with that.

For the eastern Californian crag in question, the location, the histories of climbing on the East Side, the FA party and their respective histories, retrobolting Hair Raiser Buttress was *nearly* as controversial as retrobolting Bachar Yerian would be... guaranteed to start a fight. I have to believe that the retrobolters either didn't know (stupid), didn't care (unaware) or did it in spite or to spite (likely a component of their decision).

It showed a complete lack of respect to retrobolt Hair Raiser. It set the stage for futher retrobolt intrusions, all in the name of good climbing of course. We NEED another 5.9 face climb, right? Desperately I guess.

Now back to the responsibility thing. As I said earlier, there isn't a committee and we can't (yet, thank god) appeal to the government. Our styles and ethics are displayed one climber at a time, one route at a time, one ascent at a time. Each is a singular event, and only becomes part of the community as a data point so to speak. Graph all the data points and you have a picture of the community... NOT the other way around.

In other words, you don't point to some mythical Climber's Town and expect beause people live in that place they will all act the same, think the same. There's no mayor or city counsel, its more a refugee camp than it is a town. Each climber/refugee has a different story to tell.

Higgins et al exercised their privilege to climb Hair Raiser Buttress in a style that suited their desires. One data point. Many people climbed the route in that form, it had freaking stars in thd oldest guide. I turned away from it personally.

Then you have the retrobolter(s), exercising their privilege to retrobolt. Remember, there's no mayor, or committee or rules, even, preventing them from doing this. Just our conventions as climbers. But just as clearly, they knew going in that others in their community would not approve.

So these others? They can't appeal to the mayor, the committee, the rulebook, or even their peers; no one has authority. Yet just as clearly, the conventional styles of the area were violated and tradition minded climbers had good reason to be alarmed over this encroachment.

So someone chopped it. That person exercised her privilege just as did the retrobolters.

Now old Dingus is standing at the base of this X route. If I were to launch out across that 40 foot run, I would do so with a bolt kit in hand at this stage in my life. When I was younger I might have been a bit more cavilier about my life to be honest. I might still, quien sabe?

But I might not. Its my life, this is the point I've been trying to make. Dying for some stupid principle of rock climbing, mostly the principles of others (!), is about the STUPIDEST THING ON EARTH.

I'll put a bolt in your great great grandma's headstone if I have to (no offence), if it means I live instead of die. Its MY responsibility. Its MY life. That consideration supercedes ALL DISCUSSION OVER STYLE, all respect for tradition, all ethics are wasted breath in the face of imminent death.

It is up to the leader to safeguard her passage. It isn't up to anyone else. She has the privilege to drill at any point.

Am I saying that I or anyone else should go retrobolt Hair Raiser again? No. What I am saying is no one owes any of you a safe ascent of the route. Period.

For the record, I have no intention of retrobolting this route. All I said was, I would take a bolt kit up that pitch, if I were to lead it. Its MY ass, no one else's. Fear not, I take a bolt kit up a lot of routes, both uncharted and well documented. I don't go up on a trade route wall without one for example.

I think we have lost, no wrong word. I don't think that sense of self-sufficiency in thinking and in deed, are well-developed in today's climbing masses. I think many climbers today would rail, impotently, at the evil-doers who chop, with nary a notion that is it up to THEM, and them alone, individually, to find their way in this sport.

I don't cede my right to drill to save my own ass to anyone, anywhere, anytime and I certainly won't die over a stupid principle. That's sorta a bottom line for me.

DMT


dingus


Nov 23, 2005, 7:53 AM
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I agree with the writer who said it's time we heard from Vern and Tom, specifically, is it ok to take the X-rating out of HRB? I'd be willing to contact them myself if I had any idea how.

BTW: How come no one uses their real names on this site?

Lars

2nd question first... I am using my real name. My real climbing name. For the most part, I think people who use their full given names on an internet forum are asking for trouble. Even my kids call me Dingus.

Now, in terms of Higgins thought process, and perhaps a way for you to ask your questions:

http://www.supertopo.com/..._id=113990#msg113990

Now that thread isn't about Hair Raiser, so you will see yet another shade of my opinion on bolts. But pay particular attention to the comments from Braun, Largo and expecially that dude who calls himself "Long Ago."

There have been some incredibly thoughtful climbing related threads there recently. Any one interested in West Coast climbing history would do well to hang there for a while and read some of the traffic (plenty of bullshit too, just like here, no bad thing really)

Cheers!
DMT


dingus


Nov 23, 2005, 8:02 AM
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Yup, dingus, you're right - no one owes me a safe ascent. I won't argue that. I just agree with kalcario and fracture when they say that a route if it is going to be bolted at all, should be bolted well enough to prevent a lethal ground/ledgefall. Runouts higher up on the route where you might get a little scraped up and soil your panties if you fell - that's ok with me.

Do you think our sport is richer or poorer for harboring the few true x-rated routes that are in existence? Do you think a bolted X rated route is always an abomination? Is there room for diversity in your climbing world? Does it all have to be pasteurized? All of it???

Isn't there room for the Mark Wilford's of the world too? I mean, if there's room for Dave Shultz (no pussy himself) and ryobi gas powered rotary hammers, isn't there also room for respect for Tom Higgins? Can't we have BOTH???

DMT


leinosaur


Nov 23, 2005, 9:28 PM
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A route like the type he is describing was recently retro-bolted at one of my local crags. There was an editors' note in the last Rock & Ice (written by Jeff Jackson) complaining about it---it was a Duane Raleigh FA. (Of course, the note did not describe the retarded way the route had been bolted)

If the "retarded way" was old-style Raleigh, it probably involved protecting the crux if there was a stance, and running out anything easier. If you want to climb a Raleigh 5.9, you should be damn comfortable soloing 5.8.

I was on 5 pitches worth of Raleigh routes today. I led exactly one in his original style:

S-Wall, 5.9:
p1 - ca. 110 ft., 1 bolt where it steepens up to 5.8 after 70 ft. of 5.5 to 5.7
(my buddy led that one)

p2 - ca. 110 ft, 1 bolt 10 ft up protects the 5.9 crux, one blue alien or blue 3CU placement after 70 more feet of 5.7 - 5.8.
(my lead, scary as hell, but now I know why it's a four-star mega-classic)

The rest should be educational regarding runout ethics:

Jet Stream, 5.10b RX : 75 feet, 2 bolts. Cruxes well-protected, anything easier, runout: WE TOPROPED IT! Not because we and the bolts would get chopped, but because how it's protected is none of my goddamn business until I'm ready to lead it! Even here in OK, there are other 10b's with gear or more bolts I can go climb if I want to.

Snow White, 5.10b, RX: same story. Hella fun climb. Expect to head-point it someday. Maybe I'll "headpoint" after a dozen more times on TR. Maybe not. So what?

El Tesoro, 5.10a, R: 130 ft, 5 bolts, runouts over easier ground up to about 5.9 - ORIGINALLY NAMED "Last of the Dead Guys," a solo which was retro-bolted (on lead, WITH PERMISSION from Senor Raleigh) -

Just friggin' ask. Did anyone bother asking could they please add bolts, on the "retardedly bolted" route you are talking about? Home slice has put up enough routes, to probably let y'all water something down to your level, if you just gotta lead it for some reason.

But why do you have to? It's a wide world.


superbum


Nov 23, 2005, 10:02 PM
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Dingus, I'm a bit confused where you stand. On Sept 20th you wrote that HRB "never should have been retrod", then in your last post you said if you were going to climb it now you'd "sure as heck bring a bolt kit". So is retrobolting without permission wrong, or is it ok but only when you're seriously scared?

Hi Lars

Let me see if I can explain my thought process on this. I'll start with personal responsibility. As stated, no one owes me a safe ascent, period. They don't owe me any routes, any climbing time, a gym membership, nothing.

So when I start up a rock, any rock, I do so with the intention of assuming 100% responsibility my own ass. Now I compromise that ideal, often. I'll clip bolts I didn't place and then run it out above them for example. But when I choose to do that, I am still exercising my personal responsibility to protect my own ass.

As a leader, on any given piece of rock, it is up to me to safeguard my own passage or suffer the consequences. I can't cede the consequences so I won't cede the responsibility.

That's the basic framework of my thinking.

Now to retrobolting. I'm afraid I have no pat answer, no concrete position from which to assail those who disagree. I happen to believe in situational ethics in our sport. What would represent bad style retrobolting in one place would or could be a community spirited positive in another. I'm down with that.

For the eastern Californian crag in question, the location, the histories of climbing on the East Side, the FA party and their respective histories, retrobolting Hair Raiser Buttress was *nearly* as controversial as retrobolting Bachar Yerian would be... guaranteed to start a fight. I have to believe that the retrobolters either didn't know (stupid), didn't care (unaware) or did it in spite or to spite (likely a component of their decision).

It showed a complete lack of respect to retrobolt Hair Raiser. It set the stage for futher retrobolt intrusions, all in the name of good climbing of course. We NEED another 5.9 face climb, right? Desperately I guess.

Now back to the responsibility thing. As I said earlier, there isn't a committee and we can't (yet, thank god) appeal to the government. Our styles and ethics are displayed one climber at a time, one route at a time, one ascent at a time. Each is a singular event, and only becomes part of the community as a data point so to speak. Graph all the data points and you have a picture of the community... NOT the other way around.

In other words, you don't point to some mythical Climber's Town and expect beause people live in that place they will all act the same, think the same. There's no mayor or city counsel, its more a refugee camp than it is a town. Each climber/refugee has a different story to tell.

Higgins et al exercised their privilege to climb Hair Raiser Buttress in a style that suited their desires. One data point. Many people climbed the route in that form, it had freaking stars in thd oldest guide. I turned away from it personally.

Then you have the retrobolter(s), exercising their privilege to retrobolt. Remember, there's no mayor, or committee or rules, even, preventing them from doing this. Just our conventions as climbers. But just as clearly, they knew going in that others in their community would not approve.

So these others? They can't appeal to the mayor, the committee, the rulebook, or even their peers; no one has authority. Yet just as clearly, the conventional styles of the area were violated and tradition minded climbers had good reason to be alarmed over this encroachment.

So someone chopped it. That person exercised her privilege just as did the retrobolters.

Now old Dingus is standing at the base of this X route. If I were to launch out across that 40 foot run, I would do so with a bolt kit in hand at this stage in my life. When I was younger I might have been a bit more cavilier about my life to be honest. I might still, quien sabe?

But I might not. Its my life, this is the point I've been trying to make. Dying for some stupid principle of rock climbing, mostly the principles of others (!), is about the STUPIDEST THING ON EARTH.

I'll put a bolt in your great great grandma's headstone if I have to (no offence), if it means I live instead of die. Its MY responsibility. Its MY life. That consideration supercedes ALL DISCUSSION OVER STYLE, all respect for tradition, all ethics are wasted breath in the face of imminent death.

It is up to the leader to safeguard her passage. It isn't up to anyone else. She has the privilege to drill at any point.

Am I saying that I or anyone else should go retrobolt Hair Raiser again? No. What I am saying is no one owes any of you a safe ascent of the route. Period.

For the record, I have no intention of retrobolting this route. All I said was, I would take a bolt kit up that pitch, if I were to lead it. Its MY ass, no one else's. Fear not, I take a bolt kit up a lot of routes, both uncharted and well documented. I don't go up on a trade route wall without one for example.

I think we have lost, no wrong word. I don't think that sense of self-sufficiency in thinking and in deed, are well-developed in today's climbing masses. I think many climbers today would rail, impotently, at the evil-doers who chop, with nary a notion that is it up to THEM, and them alone, individually, to find their way in this sport.

I don't cede my right to drill to save my own ass to anyone, anywhere, anytime and I certainly won't die over a stupid principle. That's sorta a bottom line for me.

DMT

So well put, I quoted the whole thing.

Think before you act..consider, mull over, weigh the facts, visualize the outcome, then just fcking do what you are gonna do and be honest about it afterwards.

I like a little direct action monkeywrenching from time to time, but I also like protecting my own ass...Either way envolves NOT compromising.


kalcario


Nov 23, 2005, 10:42 PM
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*Do you think our sport is richer or poorer for harboring the few true x-rated routes that are in existence? Do you think a bolted X rated route is always an abomination? Is there room for diversity in your climbing world? Does it all have to be pasteurized? All of it??? *

No, it doesn't. In fact, every route on the planet longer than, say, 40 feet (taller, I suppose, if it's Glacier Point Apron angle), bolted or not, is X-rated. X-rated means if you fall, you die, therefore anything taller than 40' is X-rated. Nothing is pasteurized - simply leave the rope behind, and it's as if Louis Pasteur was never born. Not all FA'ers exercised perfect judgement all the time, and creating bolted routes with X-rated groundfall runouts smacks more of egotism and arrogance than it does of sound judgement and common sense. And we can't have this Ayn Rand, libertarian nonsense where one person is free to drill, and the next is free to chop, because the rock gets fucked up; there has to be a compromise between those who want to die if they fall and those who don't. And the workable compromise is, if you want to die, you free solo. If you don't, rope up and clip the gear. The Want-To-Die-If-I-Fall crowd can't, or shouldn't, have it both ways, mainly because there's no practical reason for it. X-rated means if you fall you die, which means the rope and bolts are useless, and useless bolts should either be chopped, or put enough in so they're not useless.


fracture


Nov 27, 2005, 7:58 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
A route like the type he is describing was recently retro-bolted at one of my local crags. There was an editors' note in the last Rock & Ice (written by Jeff Jackson) complaining about it---it was a Duane Raleigh FA. (Of course, the note did not describe the retarded way the route had been bolted)

If the "retarded way" was old-style Raleigh, it probably involved protecting the crux if there was a stance, and running out anything easier.

Falling from the crux was a decker, as I already mentioned (if you had read it).

In reply to:
Just friggin' ask. Did anyone bother asking could they please add bolts, on the "retardedly bolted" route you are talking about?

As I said, the people who did the retro thought they had permission.

However, they are also members of a democratically elected committee which oversees bolting at the crag in question through an agreement with the state. They don't actually have any obligation to get his permission. And theoretically they represent what the local climbing community who elected them would like (and unlike Duane, those people still climb at E-Rock).


lensign


Dec 1, 2005, 7:03 AM
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Dingus,

So let me see if I've got your "situational" ethics thing down:

I am ultimately responsible for my choices and my safety. Got it.

No ethical principle of rock climbing is worth dying for. Yup, I agree.

There is no one with jurisdiction over rock climbing, nor do we want there to be, therefore we are free to do as we choose whenever and wherever we choose. Hmmm... I think there is a de-facto self appointed police force in climbing - climbers who act like our surfing friends and physically assault those they don't agree with.

If I feel my life is threatened, even on an established route, it is ok for me to drill a bolt regardless of what anyone else thinks and even though I am responsible for getting myself in that situation. That's out there, but, ok, I'll go with that.

If someone decides they don't like a bolt that someone else put in, it is within their rights to remove it even though another climber may come along expecting it to be there and unknowingly put themselves into a hazardous situation for which they alone are responsible (they should have carried a bolt kit like you would have in case they ran into trouble, right?). Hmmm... gotta say we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Also, I'm a bit alarmed that the rock may end up looking like swiss cheese after several bolting/chopping cycles.

If someone other than dingus comes along and adds bolts to HRB erroneously thinking they had the permission of all the first assentionists, then that is retrobolting and that is wrong, even though they may have felt the situation warranted such action at the time and you may have felt the situation warranted it should you have been in their shoes? That smacks of hipocracy.

What's my point here? Simply this: Dingus, most of what you say makes sense, but I can find no convincing argument that a bolted rock climb should permanently be defined by the first ascent party. Did they leave the rock the way they found it? Should they get to determine the way that piece of rock is climbed permanently simply because they had the historical fortune to be there first? Does anyone "own" a climb? Do we have to climb exactly like they did to be as good/worthy/valuable/admired as we percieve them? A rock climb is no Mona Lisa, no work of fine art. It is simply a possible pathway of traveling from point A to point B, in other words, a trail. Do we never alter a trail?

Lars


lensign


Dec 1, 2005, 8:24 AM
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No, it doesn't. In fact, every route on the planet longer than, say, 40 feet (taller, I suppose, if it's Glacier Point Apron angle), bolted or not, is X-rated. X-rated means if you fall, you die, therefore anything taller than 40' is X-rated. Nothing is pasteurized - simply leave the rope behind, and it's as if Louis Pasteur was never born. Not all FA'ers exercised perfect judgement all the time, and creating bolted routes with X-rated groundfall runouts smacks more of egotism and arrogance than it does of sound judgement and common sense. And we can't have this Ayn Rand, libertarian nonsense where one person is free to drill, and the next is free to chop, because the rock gets f--- up; there has to be a compromise between those who want to die if they fall and those who don't. And the workable compromise is, if you want to die, you free solo. If you don't, rope up and clip the gear. The Want-To-Die-If-I-Fall crowd can't, or shouldn't, have it both ways, mainly because there's no practical reason for it. X-rated means if you fall you die, which means the rope and bolts are useless, and useless bolts should either be chopped, or put enough in so they're not useless.

Kalcario, I should have read your response more carefully before submitting my last post. I couldn't agree more. Just what I was trying to say, only said much better. Strong work!

Please, will someone who enjoys this kind of labor go replace a few of those chopped bolts on HRB? I'll pay for the new hardware.

BTW: does anyone have any idea who this "ROCA" (run out climbing association) is? Can someone who knows them get them to read this discussion site and talk to the climbing community before they go chop something else? Maybe they can educate us on the finer points of chopping - is it better style to chop on lead or is rap-chopping acceptable? :wink: Is it their goal to chop every retrobolt, or just the ones on the routes they are capable of climbing?

Lars


dingus


Dec 1, 2005, 8:34 AM
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What's my point here? Simply this: Dingus, most of what you say makes sense, but I can find no convincing argument that a bolted rock climb should permanently be defined by the first ascent party.

Maybe you're looking for absolutes in a world of gray?

In reply to:
Did they leave the rock the way they found it? Should they get to determine the way that piece of rock is climbed permanently simply because they had the historical fortune to be there first? Does anyone "own" a climb? Do we have to climb exactly like they did to be as good/worthy/valuable/admired as we percieve them?

No! We don't HAVE to do anything! That's the whole point of my original post. We are each 'island nations' fully capable of doing our own thing. I suggest you stop trying to define everything to the point where no mystery remains. This isn't a sport of rules darn it!

In reply to:
A rock climb is no Mona Lisa, no work of fine art.

And that is precisely where you and I part ways. Now I'll be blunt, I think the Mona Lisa is a terrible painting. I think it sucks. The ONLY reason it has any fame atall is because of who painted it. If you examine it closely, you will note many, many flaws. Those flaws could be fixed, repaired, made better than the original, yet we resist the temptation.

There is no need for a long diatribe here. But I am sick of 'silly-logic' that spins a particular style or stance out to the nth degree, rendering the point 'silly.' Extrapolating the HRB to other routes, exporting that style wholesale, asking, 'what, can we NEVER upgrade a route???' is silly logic annd frankly Lars its a bit insulting. I'm not going to engage in a silly logic discussion.

I will discuss facts. Here are some:

1. California, the Sierra and east side in particular, has a long trad style ethical history that predates you, me and everyone else on this board save Gill.

2. That same inherentance gave us other styles, other ethics, that are often mixed, but just as often stand on their own as well. You won't see me casting silly logic to argue those styles out of existence either.

3. If you want to receive respect, you have to dish it out. SIMPLE AS THAT.

4. Not all routes use or provide the same levels of protection.

5. Here in California and elsewhere an ethic of respecting the FA has developed over time. It is this ethic you and others seek to invalidate. You folks tend to treat it like a rule, when in fact it is a guideline. We don't have rules. It belongs in the realm of #3 above - respect.

6. HRB was established by one of the leading proponents of the California trad style. A style many of us to this day admire, respect and pursue to one extent or another. When someone proposes rebolting that route, I have to ask WHY??? Why THAT PARTICULAR ROUTE? There are hundreds of thousands of routes in California and hundreds of thousands more await their first caress. So why that route?

It can only be interpreted one way... those bolts may as well been added to Tom Higgin's forehead, such was the 'in your face' nature of the insult.

Insult. That's right. Insult. Those retrobolts not only were direct insults to Higgins style, they were an insult to those of us who climb here and still respect that style. It was ann insult to the commmunity that said my wishes supercede all others. They were an insult to every first ascent party that has ever divulged their new routes under the assumption, heretofore granted, that the syle of the FA would be respected.

So when you get right down to it, the Mona Lisa is an apt analogy. We have a route, it isn't the end all be all of routes, its a buttress out in the desert. The rock isn't even that great, comparatively speaking. You spin your silly logic to apply my call for respect to the nth degree and I just spin it back...

I have heard not one compelling argument for retrobolting HRB that doesn't come down to 'because I want to.'

Well hell, we all want a lot of things our of climbing. Many of these things are in direct opposition to one another. The only way we can hope to get along and avoid the iron hand of government regulation is through community respect. Respecting each others' works has accomplished that deed for decades. Now many new comers, a lot of whom are ignorant of that history, let along Tom Higgins' role in it, would like to pave that history over out of convenience and greed, soley because they want to. Never mind they could hike or drive for a few more minutes and find routes or FA possibilities more in keepinng eith THEIR STYLE, no!

They want to pave over OUR history, the very same one they know nothing about. Well pardon me for objecting, but I think that sucks.

But I'll conclude the with the point from which I began, this is the wild west. We can each do as we please, largely speaking. Given that framework of anarchy, calling for respect of existing styles and routes, acknowledging and indeed, showing that respect, will help, 10, 20, 30 years from now, these very same people to protect their climbing legacies when the next generations start invalidating all THEY DID.

The only thing between us and government regulation is common respect. This is the hand we were dealt. None of us invented the sport, wrote the rules, created the route or penned the guidebook. We can merely show our respect for the gift, or we can take it back to Walmart and exchange it for some other piece of mass produced shit.

I say screw the Walmart mentality. HRB belongs on the Antique Road Show...

LEAVE IT THE FUCK ALONE!

Such are my thoughs Lars. Cheers

DMT


asandh


Dec 1, 2005, 8:54 AM
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:)


dingus


Dec 1, 2005, 9:01 AM
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The final substance of your post.

DMT


jv


Dec 1, 2005, 10:05 AM
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I agree with Dingus. The first ascent guideline has been followed for decades in this area and it works well. It protects these routes from climbers who don't learn how to manage their fear and resent those who do, and it prevents the damage of cyclic retrobolting/chopping episodes.

If you don't have express permission of the first ascent party to add bolts, or if the FAists are dead, a real concensus by the climbers who use the area most often, then leave it alone. There are plenty of sport bolted routes and "safe" trad-bolted routes on the East Side. Why does this particular route need to be altered against the express wishes of Higgins?


lensign


Dec 9, 2005, 2:24 AM
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Why should HRB in particular have bolts added?

First, it's on a small crag out in the middle of nowhere, where nobody but climbers and offroad enthsiasts go, not in a pristine national treasure like T-meadows where some Sierra Clubber is going to get bent out of shape if they see some bolts.

Second, in it's pre-chopped state, it was the only route in the entire region that I have found that you could climb a reasonably well protected bolted multi-pitch slab route on good rock at a moderate grade. (it wasn't completely sterilized, either, it still had the issues getting to the first bolt and some runouts after that). You guys write like there are an infinite supply of other 4-5 star bolted slab routes in the Eastern Sierra in a location that doesn't require hours of approach and is climbable year-around. Yeah? Where? I haven't found any equivalent routes in the area that weren't either really run out, or trad routes with big runouts between questionable gear. I don't think climbing well bolted juggy steep 5.9s in the Owens River Gorge prepares you at all for routes like HRB. I think you may have forgotten what it is like climbing low-rated routes put up by people who didn't think they needed to be protected. I used to think HRB was a great way to learn slab climbing in a relatively safe environment so you could take your skills to other similar but more dangerous routes like Snake Dike. You also imply that there are plenty of similar high quality low-hanging fruit for easy FAs in whatever style I choose if I'd just drive/walk a few more minutes. Ok... Have you *seen* the latest Bishop Area Rock Climbs edition? Every little outcropping taller than about 25 feet in the entire area is bristling with routes. I have searched my neighborhood (Tahoe) for similar climbing terrain (including by airplane), only to find, yup, it's been climbed, it's r/x-rated, and, nope, the FAs won't give their blessing to adding any gear. Accesable good quality rock of moderate grade is not an unlimited resource and if a large portion of it is tied up in untouchable X-rated death routes out of "respect", what's the use of that?

Third, I still don't see how it is an insult to FAs to add bolts to their routes - they still get credit for the FA. I have put up a route (woo-hoo! yeah, I know - a whole pitch even - I am so not a climbing god.) and, heck, I'd feel honored if anyone ever went and tried to climb it or cared enough to want to modify it. Anyone who wants to climb it the "old way" can skip the additional gear. I think it's just eletism and egotism to say "you have to climb it just the way I did - if you're not tough enough, piss off and find something else." Can't you disagree with someone and still respect them?

Lars


healyje


Dec 9, 2005, 2:57 AM
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Third, I still don't see how it is an insult to FAs to add bolts to their routes - they still get credit for the FA. I have put up a route (woo-hoo! yeah, I know - a whole pitch even - I am so not a climbing god.) and, heck, I'd feel honored if anyone ever went and tried to climb it or cared enough to want to modify it. Anyone who wants to climb it the "old way" can skip the additional gear. I think it's just eletism and egotism to say "you have to climb it just the way I did - if you're not tough enough, piss off and find something else." Can't you disagree with someone and still respect them?

Lars

Yes, you can disagree with someone and still respect them - and, as Dingus keeps trying to explain, you show that respect by not retrobolting their routes...


fracture


Dec 9, 2005, 9:21 AM
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Yes, you can disagree with someone and still respect them - and, as Dingus keeps trying to explain, you show that respect by not retrobolting their routes...

But that's also a completely arbitrary definition of respect. I like the anarchistic view Dingus preaches (which does not apply in some managed areas---like the one I mentioned earlier in this thread), but to be honest I don't really understand how he manages to preach the "wild west" while he simultaneously seems to be defending FA "ownership". Property is theft, man!

So how about having some of the old-school FA's respect some of the desires of new climbers---or other climbers who are smart enough to not want to die? Why should these guys (who in some cases got fat and don't even climb anymore) be allowed to wield dictatorial control over something they didn't even really "create" (unless they chipped it significantly, I suppose) in the first place---just because they peed on it first?

I love explaining this whole "FA-ownership" bullshit aspect of the sport to people who don't climb, by the way. It is hilarious how climbers take things that have nothing to do with climbing rocks way too seriously. :lol:


dingus


Dec 9, 2005, 9:49 AM
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but to be honest I don't really understand how he manages to preach the "wild west" while he simultaneously seems to be defending FA "ownership".

You completely mischaracterize my position. I don't feel the FA owns the route. I just think retrobolters have even less a claim.

But as I have so painstakenly laid out (only to be ignored through statements like yours) is that we are all free to do as we wish largely, on public land. There is no valid ownership claim.

Go bolt the fucker if you want! NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU.

Bet you someone else chops it though.

You can respect the spirit if the FA or not. The consequences are not yours or mine to control. Our anarchy of FA respect has served us well in these areas. There is no need for a sport crag mentality of group ownership and gym-like maintenance programs.

Wild west simply means this... the responsibility for your actions lies solely with you. There ain't no sheriff or mommy government to resolve our disputes. I think that is the proper way, as the other path lives SCUBA like regulations which would totally suck.

The retrobolters need to restrain themselves.

DMT


dingus


Dec 9, 2005, 9:55 AM
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So how about having some of the old-school FA's respect some of the desires of new climbers---or other climbers who are smart enough to not want to die?

Talk about BULLSHIT! We're talking ONE ROUTE, in California. ONE ROUTE that was established before most of these kids were BORN. Almost without exception, the old dogs I know hold a 'when in Rome' attitude. Too bad you 'I gotta have it NOW NOW NOW and I want it all and I'll pave over anything for MY GRATIFICATION crowd' can't do the same.

Its because you have no respect. You get what you give. Amen.

DMT


fracture


Dec 9, 2005, 10:00 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
but to be honest I don't really understand how he manages to preach the "wild west" while he simultaneously seems to be defending FA "ownership".

You completely mischaracterize my position.

But to be fair, I also said I don't really understand your position :)

(And I still have some trouble grokking it).

In reply to:
I don't feel the FA owns the route. I just think retrobolters have even less a claim.

I understand this.

My view is that the FA'ist does not own the route, and that the retrobolters have an equal claim as everyone else who actually climbs in the area. If the FA'ist no longer climbs in the area, then retrobolters have an infinitely greater claim than the FA does.

FWIW.

And I reject the idea that this has anything to do with whether they respect the FA'ist as a person.

8^)


dingus


Dec 9, 2005, 10:15 AM
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I understand this.

My view is that the FA'ist does not own the route, and that the retrobolters have an equal claim as everyone else who actually climbs in the area. If the FA'ist no longer climbs in the area, then retrobolters have an infinitely greater claim than the FA does.

Infinitely. Restated, the FA has no claim at all. That idea is still being rejected at the sharp end of a cold chisel. The FAist is perfectly able to come back and chop chop chop.

In reply to:
FWIW.

Now that you're not trolling so hard, its worth a lot actually.

In reply to:

And I reject the idea that this has anything to do with whether they respect the FA'ist as a person.

8^)

So do I. Though I would encourage respect for the elders of our sport in most situations. I say respect the First Ascent, not the first ascender, or rather I say respect the spirit of the FA, which allows a bit more wiggle room.

No, the case in point, HRB? Retrobolting in that case WAS definitely a swipe of disrepect aimed squarely at Higgins. Purposeful. AS in, 'up yours higgins!' as the bolts went in. Probably the vast majority of retrobolts are not done this way, but I surely suspect it in this case.

DMT


fracture


Dec 9, 2005, 10:37 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I understand this.

My view is that the FA'ist does not own the route, and that the retrobolters have an equal claim as everyone else who actually climbs in the area. If the FA'ist no longer climbs in the area, then retrobolters have an infinitely greater claim than the FA does.

Infinitely. Restated, the FA has no claim at all. That idea is still being rejected at the sharp end of a cold chisel. The FAist is perfectly able to come back and chop chop chop.

Ok, point taken. However, the degree to which their claim is relevant is also related to the likelyhood they will even know about the new bolts.

Regarding the situation I described earlier: Duane Raleigh expressed that he was upset to learn that Real Gravy (not his route, in this case) at E-Rock had been retro'd. Ironically, this happened something like 15 years ago.... No offense to DR (and I definitely respect that guy), but if he doesn't even learn about it for over a decade, I really don't care if it upsets him---it's none of his business and obviously didn't affect him.

Another humorous thing along these lines: an FA'ist who put up a few routes which took gear placements at a sport crag I climb at said on an internet site a while back that he was glad his routes were still left in their original state. Heh. They've been "modified" for quite a long time now. (Not by me, btw. I've never placed a retro-bolt). There's an even funnier twist to this story, though: the crag has now been purchased to become a county park, and bolting there is now controlled through an agreement with the county. So removing those retro bolts will not be happening, and is probably a crime too.

I just find the whole thing supremely hilarious. I like rock climbing. But all this FA'ist ownership stuff---at least when it is leveraged by people living out of state who haven't been to the crag in over a decade---is pretty much a joke. (Am I trolling now?)

:D


dingus


Dec 9, 2005, 10:56 AM
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I like that the bold climbs of Dresden and Czech sandstone climbing have retained their bold antiquity. I like the preservation of Tuolumne. I like clipping bolts at Table Mtn and the retrobolt on Higgins Serenity Crack bothered me not in the least.

I'm not a fundy on this. I sorta like it all myself. But if there is room in our world for 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000 "To Bolt or Not to Be's" then there has to be *some* room for a few Bachar Yerians too.

The reason the BY stands unaltered to this day is that very loose system of respect was and remains at work here. Everyone KNOWS additional bolts will get the chop, they KNOW IT. So no one does it, score one small victory for tradition.

Raleigh seems 15 years too late, I totally agree. And as I said, I wouldn't like it if the only area in 500 miles was locked up with 25 year old death routes either. The community DOES have a voice I just recommend that it begin from a position of respect for those who preceeded us.

Cheers man, I gotta head out
DMT


dingus


Dec 9, 2005, 8:23 PM
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Hey Fracture? Check out Higgin's reply.

http://www.supertopo.com/..._id=100115#msg128505

Check out the part about tying off chickenheads, lol!

DMT


healyje


Dec 10, 2005, 6:32 AM
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Minimizing their number was not to create mind games for others but leave the rock marked with as few bolts as possible. I realize my attitude may seem quaint in the era of sport routes, but we are products of our times and mentors, and that was the attitude instilled in me.

This definitively states that no one intentionally "put up a death route" or was trying to show what a bad ass they were. And the reason to respect this existing route in the way it was established is that it is representative of climbing in the time it was put up.

Also, we're really talking two different issues here - legacy and access. "Legacy" is what this route represents and if you ask today's top climbers I suspect you'd find they have infinite respect for the folks who's shoulders they stood on to get where they are today. Maybe ask a Tommy, Steph, or Topher what they think if you really want an opinion from this generation; but then again maybe that wouldn't work because they could simply hike it without giving a rats ass about the retro'ed pro - who knows.

"Access" in this thread's context is clearly about who can climb what, and at what level of safety. Isn't that really a bit of a sliding scale? And who determines it? Why only retro one bolt and not six? Retro one and you might not deck, but some 5.7 climber trying to step up might. Some other 5.8 climber might want a go on it, wants to be completely safe, and thinks six new bolts would allow him to do it not only without decking, but without a serious fall of any kind. Just who decides? And wouldn't you be acting as some sort of "elitist prick" putting in only one retro and denying the route to someone else?

And where does this "Retro for Access" mentality stop? If we're really talking access how about a via ferrata on it - where does the sliding scale stop? I know, I know, that's extreme and "you" are just talking one bolt - but what about the next guy that wants two? The problem with the application of the "Access" argument is it can be wielded by anyone against any route. It really does risk every route being retro'ed or established (as a community service no doubt) to a level of "lowest common denominator" protection. And while you may not be able to make what you see as the enormous leap between these two "extremes", to me it's painfully obvious, if not unavoidable, that one inevitably and inexorably leads to the other once it starts. It might only be one route, but over time that's how they tend to go - one by one...


joshklingbeil


Dec 10, 2005, 7:30 AM
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Keep the cliff clean chop all retro bolts not authorized by the FA party.


joshklingbeil


Dec 10, 2005, 7:30 AM
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Fuck the retro bolts. Keep the cliff clean chop all retro bolts not authorized by the FA party.


jv


Dec 10, 2005, 9:21 AM
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Well said healyje.


superbum


Jun 18, 2006, 11:10 PM
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well...hmmm.

We'll see. I am going to do the route in a coupla days. I will then have some experiance to back up my opinions (which have largely already formed...). OK, see you then.


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