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norushnomore
Oct 8, 2005, 10:00 AM
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Don't use cordelettes
Skip double ropes
Simul rapel if you can
Don't take forever to commit to a crux move
Don't use nuts or other passive pro if you don't need to
Don't extend pro with slings if you are following a straight line.
Run it out a bit if climbing is easy (for your level)
Don't overload with gear or other crap
Don't spend time load testing your cams, learn to trust a visual check
Don't place pro way above your head
Use a rope hook to keep your rope organized
Get comfy shoes so you don't need to take them off
Get as much beta as possible to save time on route finding
Get a TRE belay device ;-)
And then what's the rush anyway? Just take your time climbing.
After a hard pitch you will need a rest anyway before you can lead the next one. Preview you route and pre-arrange gear
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chrisb
Oct 8, 2005, 1:40 PM
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Helpful folk,
Thanks for the suggestions, warnings, and ever-interesting esoteric digressions on personal preference.
I agree--the doubles pretty much suck (especially at the Gunks), but my partner's really into them and, since he does most of the leading right now, I figure it's his call. But they can be a goddamn pain...
To those worried we're trying to go too fast over terrain we shouldn't, don't. We're not trying to shave 12.7 seconds off our fastest top out. I'm just fishing for some "Ahh, that's nice" tips, like the first time you saw a trad draw.
Thanks again,
cb
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piton
Oct 10, 2005, 12:41 PM
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i disagree doubles are great. espicially at the gunks (millbrook)
use a reverso (or wait for the new BD belay device that acts like a reverso)
when belaying the 2nd i'm able to organize the ropes, gear, so the 2nd can cast off quickly to the next lead.
hey you all hear a couple of gunkies bagged Freerider on El Cap!
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vegastradguy
Oct 10, 2005, 1:54 PM
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In reply to: i disagree doubles are great. espicially at the gunks (millbrook)
true, but on the really long stuff, they have a greater potential for causing a cluster, even if you know how to use them. it's also 400' of rope that you're carrying.
i use my doubles on everything except the stuff where time is an issue.....when its big enough that i might come down in the dark, i almost always carry the single (the exception is if i have to rappel with two lines).
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piton
Oct 10, 2005, 4:32 PM
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oh i'm sorry i thought he was asking about doubles. no wait he DID ask about doubles.
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vegastradguy
Oct 10, 2005, 8:40 PM
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the biggest problem with doubles (imho) is their potential for a cluster. and this really only comes into play when you're pushing your limits on time.
example: my partner and i recently did Resolution Arete- V, 5.10, 23 pitches. It's pretty much the biggest climb in the area and we debated using doubles or not for a while. in the end, we decided that while the doubles have their advantages, if we made one mistake with them (b/c we were tired or whatever), the resulting cluster could mean the difference between bivy and making the summit. also, there wasnt much of an advantage to having them- the route wanders so much with so many short pitches that even with doubles you couldnt link 'em. so, we went with a single 9.6mm line for the route. as it turned out, it was probably a good thing. we started at dawn and summitted about 20 minutes before dusk-- one big snafu could have stopped us in bad place.
that said, most of the time, you're not doing this, and thats when doubles can have many advantages over singles, and i use my doubles all the time precisely because of it. it really comes down to picking the right tool for the job at hand.
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ddriver
Oct 12, 2005, 9:03 PM
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I climb long routes with doubles all the time. I guess I'm from the school of "don't climb something you can't descend," and, yeah, there have been times when I've had to rap a route unfinished.
Doubles really shouldn't cause you any more headache than a single. For starters, if you're getting twists in your doubles you're going to have headaches. Twists don't get there by accident. You're forcing the rope to spiral because you're doing something wrong, most likely in your belay setup or your rappel habits, maybe even in your coiling technique. Watch the rope pass through your device while you belay and rappel and see if you've got it running a straight smooth continuous path. You'll probably find you're inducing any number of twists. Once you figure out how to treat your doubles right you'll start moving faster with them.
Here's one simple trick for your belay that reduces twists. Use an oval for your redirect, not a D.
True doubles (same diameter) will run smoother than mixing diameters.
Stacking the rope at the belays: if you're swapping leads, use fewer loops so that you are aren't capturing free-hanging loops.
The biggest time loser for most teams is probably belay exchanges, though many climbers just move slow. The debate of block-leading vs swapping rope ends is to me more pertinent for teams of 3. Block leading can be a big time saver over swapping ends in that case, but I normally don't block lead because its not that big a deal.
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sspssp
Oct 12, 2005, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: Doubles really shouldn't cause you any more headache than a single. For starters, if you're getting twists in your doubles you're going to have headaches. Twists don't get there by accident. You're forcing the rope to spiral because you're doing something wrong, most likely in your belay setup or your rappel habits, maybe even in your coiling technique.
Not trying to flame, but I don't believe that is true. My understanding is, the cords that make up the core of a rope are wound in a spiral. When you rap on a rope (even with a "neutral" device like an ATC), the weight will cause the rope to try and untwist and then later the rope will want to twist back up when it is not weighted.
Bad habbits can make things worse, but good habbits won't keep ropes perfect. There was a discussion on (I believe) the Blue Water rope site that said ropes used to have braided cores (that were less prone to untwisting/twisting when weighted), but that everyone had gone to spiral because they come out better in the fall tests.
It doesn't take much twisting of doubles to really slow you down. As I have said before, I'm not interested in trying to talk anyone who likes them into stopping. However, there really is a reason why you don't generally see lots of people climbing on them.
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papounet
Oct 12, 2005, 10:02 PM
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There a a lot of opportunites for NOT waisting time while descending.
Such as:
- Have only the first descender go down with a autoblock, (fireman belay for the rest),
-when a descender is at the bottom instead of anchoring and then giving some slack, the descender goes further down, comes back up with the elasticity of the rope, clips at the rappel anchor, and with the amount of slack generated , shout "rope free") even if he has not removed yet his descender from the rope
- the first descender set up the anchor for the next rappel, including a easy clip point for the rest of the team (whoich should be using daisies or cow's tail)
- the first descender put the strand to be pulled allready through the next rappel anchor
- while one pulls the rope down, the other one prepare the throw for the next rappel,
- the last descender of one pitch is the first descender for the next one
- knowing how to throw in tough situations (windy...) helps
- if all descender insist on autoblocks, then have them placed on the rope while it is in tension from the previous rappeller, when the rope is free, pull up some rope slack , set the autoblock, install the descending device, slide the device and the autoblock, presto...
Having the right belay device and knowing how to use it is of great help in handling doubles ropes.
Go for devices that separate the strands such as a tube or a reverso, instead of a fig-8. It will matter especially for rappelling, because it will keep ropes separated, and less likely to tangle. it will induce less kinks, meaning less opportunities for snafus.
Choose a auto-blocking device to belay (especially second and third climbers), this allow the leader to rest , re-arrange stuff, re-inforce the belay, eat - drink or take a picture.
Knowing what to do and minimising the imapct on your counterpart is very important.
When the leader arrive at the anchor, he may shout "belay" as soon as he has connected to one piece of anchor, while the second removes the belay device and starts to prepare, the leader can consolidate the anchor. When the rope is free ("free") the leader set up the autoblocking device, get the excess rope in, put the rope into the belay device, shouts "ready", then moves on doing stuff for him. In the meantime, the second has prepped himself, and started dismantling anchor. As soon as he hears "ready", he can remove his last connection to the bottom anchor, shout "going" and be gone. A well synchronized team will have many independant tasks done in parrallel at the top and at the bottom of the pitch.
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jimdavis
Oct 13, 2005, 12:36 AM
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I'd definitly agree. I've seen the Moving Faster DVD, and the Self Rescue, and they're both amazing.
Great refrence to have to, you'll be going back to them a lot.
Cheers,
Jim
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glyrocks
Oct 13, 2005, 12:43 AM
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I didn't see it mentioned, but a critical reason people lead in blocks is to keep warm on ice and alpine routes. If I'm only leading every other pitch, we both have to sit down for two pitches (I lead #1: you sit; you follow #1: I sit; you lead #2: I sit). If it's cold out, that can mean a lot of bad things. I kind of think this whole 'keep your head' thing is a bit contrived. It sounds like a long time ago someone didn't know the answer, so they made one up and it happened to be believable and now people have convinced themselves it really is the reason. But hey, if that's why you do it, go for it.
Also didn't see it mentioned (read through quickly) but going over commands with your partner can save you enormous amounts of time. Obviously if it's a new partner it's beneficial, but even going through how many tugs means 'off belay' and etc. with an old partner can speed things up. I've definitely spent some time waiting because we didn't establish exactly what I would do if it was too windy to talk. This, I think, is especially true with doubles. Often you get all the slack pulled up for one before the other, but rope drag or wind makes it difficult to tell.
And, yea, definitely, definitely use something like the Reverso. The reverso will make all your dreams come true.
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vegastradguy
Oct 13, 2005, 12:55 AM
Post #39 of 56
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In reply to: -when a descender is at the bottom instead of anchoring and then giving some slack, the descender goes further down, comes back up with the elasticity of the rope, clips at the rappel anchor, and with the amount of slack generated , shout "rope free") even if he has not removed yet his descender from the rope.
an alternative is to rap down to anchor, clip in with one piece and set yourself and then pay out two or three big armfuls of slack from your rap device and call off rappel. then, secure yourself with a second point and undo your device.
personally, i just rap down and clip to anchor and unclip my device. i can get my device off the rope in about three seconds, so i dont really see the advantage of doing either of the above.
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sspssp
Oct 15, 2005, 7:47 PM
Post #40 of 56
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In reply to: I didn't see it mentioned, but a critical reason people lead in blocks is to keep warm on ice and alpine routes. If I'm only leading every other pitch, we both have to sit down for two pitches (I lead #1: you sit; you follow #1: I sit; you lead #2: I sit). If it's cold out, that can mean a lot of bad things. I kind of think this whole 'keep your head' thing is a bit contrived. It sounds like a long time ago someone didn't know the answer, so they made one up and it happened to be believable and now people have convinced themselves it really is the reason. But hey, if that's why you do it, go for it.
I like climbing in blocks so that when I am the second, I can absolutely bust up the pitch as fast as my belayer can belay. If I arrive at the anchor gasping for breath, no biggie--I have 30 minutes or so to rest before I climb again. Then when I'm leading, I have just had a rest/breather before every lead.
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brutusofwyde
Oct 16, 2005, 9:57 PM
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In reply to: My understanding is, the cords that make up the core of a rope are wound in a spiral. When you rap on a rope (even with a "neutral" device like an ATC), the weight will cause the rope to try and untwist and then later the rope will want to twist back up when it is not weighted.
If the rope is properly constructed with an equal number of S and Z strands, weighting it or unweighting it will make absolutely no difference in twisting. Recommend you look up some old Clyde Soles articles and posts regarding rope construction.
Rapping on a rope (or even re-directing the rope through a carabiner) even with a "neutral" device like an ATC will introduce twists whenever the rope does not run around the radius of the bend in a completely perpendicular orientation. Any time a rope runs, under tension, around a bend where the rope is not perfectly perpendicular to the center of the cylinder around which it runs, a helical component is introduced to the rope through friction.
This, rather than the twisted core, is what causes most twists in most ropes during operation.
Using a mountaineers' coil, and not unrollong a rope properly the first time, from a factory spool coil, are other ways to really twist up your rope.
In reply to: Bad habbits can make things worse, but good habbits won't keep ropes perfect. There was a discussion on (I believe) the Blue Water rope site that said ropes used to have braided cores (that were less prone to untwisting/twisting when weighted), but that everyone had gone to spiral because they come out better in the fall tests.
See above comment regarding S and Z twists.
In reply to: It doesn't take much twisting of doubles to really slow you down. As I have said before, I'm not interested in trying to talk anyone who likes them into stopping. However, there really is a reason why you don't generally see lots of people climbing on them.
The reasons I don't climb on doubles, when I don't, are:
1. I am climbing a wall. Too many ropes to begin with, without the extra strand.
2. I am on a long free climb near my limit, and my partner and I are bringing a pack. A single rope and a thin haul line provides for retreat, hauling the pack on the harder pitches, and weighs less than doubles plus a trail line
3. I am cragging, no second line needed.
4. I am climbing on twins, which are lighter than doubles.
5. The main reason for my dislike of doubles has nothing whatsoever to do with twisting: I find it difficult enough to keep one rope from behind my legs, let alone two, and a much greater awareness is needed of how each rope is running in relation to the other.
One reason doubles (and, even more so, twins) tangle more easily than singles of the same length is simply the diameter. Ever tried to untangle a 120 meter single rope? not fun. A 6mm rope 65 meters long behaves in a very similar way.
at least in my opinion.
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davidji
Oct 17, 2005, 12:38 AM
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In reply to: Using a mountaineers' coil, |
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ddriver
Oct 17, 2005, 8:25 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: My understanding is, the cords that make up the core of a rope are wound in a spiral. When you rap on a rope (even with a "neutral" device like an ATC), the weight will cause the rope to try and untwist and then later the rope will want to twist back up when it is not weighted. If the rope is properly constructed with an equal number of S and Z strands, weighting it or unweighting it will make absolutely no difference in twisting. Recommend you look up some old Clyde Soles articles and posts regarding rope construction. Rapping on a rope (or even re-directing the rope through a carabiner) even with a "neutral" device like an ATC will introduce twists whenever the rope does not run around the radius of the bend in a completely perpendicular orientation. Any time a rope runs, under tension, around a bend where the rope is not perfectly perpendicular to the center of the cylinder around which it runs, a helical component is introduced to the rope through friction. This, rather than the twisted core, is what causes most twists in most ropes during operation. Using a mountaineers' coil, and not unrollong a rope properly the first time, from a factory spool coil, are other ways to really twist up your rope.
Brutus, I'm not much of a gearhead anymore so I don't pay any attention to the tech literature bs, but years of observation have lead me to the conclusions I stated and you confirmed. I've seen it happen too many times, both to myself and to others. Watch someone thread their rap rig wrong and then stand next to them when they hit the deck.
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tradrenn
Oct 19, 2005, 12:24 AM
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Run it out, that usualy makes it quicker.
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stabla
Oct 19, 2005, 1:21 AM
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right on tradrenn!
yahtzee!
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tradrenn
Oct 20, 2005, 12:10 AM
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In reply to: right on tradrenn! yahtzee!
Don't you think it is a bit much when you see people placing gear like every 4 feet.
Run it out, at least easier sections.
When in doubt, run it out.
( I'm sure you heared that one before. )
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lewisiarediviva
Oct 20, 2005, 2:17 AM
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In reply to: Don't you think it is a bit much when you see people placing gear like every 4 feet.
Now, if you were Thumbalina. . .
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tradrenn
Oct 20, 2005, 2:32 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Don't you think it is a bit much when you see people placing gear like every 4 feet. Now, if you were Thumbalina. . .
And what would "Thumbalina" mean ?
Thank you
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lewisiarediviva
Oct 20, 2005, 2:56 AM
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Well, Thumbalina, is a princess the size of your thumb. She gets lost and some frog decideds to force her to marry him. But she escapes after the winter. She floats down stream on a leaf and is of course rescued by a prince the size of your thumb (but you knew that part before you read that sentance of course.)
But she is a very brave girl. Would running out four feet be pushing it? I would imagine that she would need to watch for swallows.
I am certain she loves trad climbing.
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tradrenn
Oct 20, 2005, 3:07 AM
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In reply to: Would running out four feet be pushing it? I am certain she loves trad climbing.
I don't know what your problem is but at least please tell me you placing a pro every four feet on a climb that is top of your limits.
You know what, Nevermind.
Whatever gets your mojo going.
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