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ridgeclimber
Oct 21, 2005, 6:59 PM
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I was flipping through Freedom of the Hills, and I came across an interesting description. It describes how, when aid climbing, on lead, one should attach one biner to a piece of pro, then clip a second one directly onto the first, then clip the lead rope through the second biner.
Now personally, under normal circumstances, I would never feel comfortable chaining biners in this way, and I would always use a runner. Even if it was a dire emergency, and I didn't have any runners, I would prefer to just clip a single biner to the piece and clip the rope directly to that.
I don't know why anyone would chain biners this way; it's generally considered dangerous.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
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trenchdigger
Oct 21, 2005, 7:17 PM
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Like this?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=12004
A bit more likely to unclip accidentally than your average quickdraw or runner. But if you're out of other options, I'd say it'd noticably reduce rope drag over simply clipping a single biner to the pro along with the rope.
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petsfed
Oct 21, 2005, 7:31 PM
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The idea is that when you're aid climbing, you'll be able to watch your pro much more closely than when free climbing. Also, if it really bothers you, you can put a sling on the piece. Extending pieces in aid is still necessary, even if FOTH doesn't indicate it. By the way, FOTH's aid sequence always struck me as a little fuddy-duddy, heavy, and slow. But that's just me.
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greenketch
Oct 21, 2005, 7:42 PM
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I am a bit old school but have not aided in a while. The system that is described in FOTH is old school. The reason that they did (or do) that is that once a biner is in use it is hard to do more stuff with it. If I remember their sequence one biner is used for the rope and the other is active in your aid ascent. Mockup the process that they are describing and you should see where the bind occurs as you pass.
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ridgeclimber
Oct 21, 2005, 7:43 PM
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pestsfed, I've done a little aid before, and I don't see why clipping two biners instead of a runnner would help you watch your pro more closely. Expain?
I agree, trenchdigger, that two biners cuts off rope drag more than one. But, there's always the possibility of the biners putting extra force on each other because of torque. If your route is relatively straight, I don't think clipping only one biner would be a major problem. Plus, in really hard aid (not something I've ever done before) two biners would cause you to fall slightly farther than just one if you took a lead fall.
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brent_e
Oct 21, 2005, 7:56 PM
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In reply to: pestsfed, I've done a little aid before, and I don't see why clipping two biners instead of a runnner would help you watch your pro more closely. Expain? I agree, trenchdigger, that two biners cuts off rope drag more than one. But, there's always the possibility of the biners putting extra force on each other because of torque. If your route is relatively straight, I don't think clipping only one biner would be a major problem. Plus, in really hard aid (not something I've ever done before) two biners would cause you to fall slightly farther than just one if you took a lead fall.
But in really hard aid if you fall don't you usally fall a long, long distance anyway? Isn't that kind of the definition??? If there was good pro it wouldn't be hard??
Can someone please clarify?
(not an aid climber.....yet....)
Brent
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brent_e
Oct 21, 2005, 7:59 PM
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double post
sorry
:)
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ridgeclimber
Oct 21, 2005, 8:35 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: pestsfed, I've done a little aid before, and I don't see why clipping two biners instead of a runnner would help you watch your pro more closely. Expain? I agree, trenchdigger, that two biners cuts off rope drag more than one. But, there's always the possibility of the biners putting extra force on each other because of torque. If your route is relatively straight, I don't think clipping only one biner would be a major problem. Plus, in really hard aid (not something I've ever done before) two biners would cause you to fall slightly farther than just one if you took a lead fall. But in really hard aid if you fall don't you usally fall a long, long distance anyway? Isn't that kind of the definition??? If there was good pro it wouldn't be hard?? Can someone please clarify? (not an aid climber.....yet....) Brent
Not really. Only if you're climbing on hooks or are leapfrogging tons of places. The general rule in aid climbing is to leave at least every second piece in as pro. Most hard aid involves really sketchy pieces that could rip out in a hard fall; this is when you would fall a long way.
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cracklover
Oct 21, 2005, 9:14 PM
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Disclaimer - I'm an aid newbie.
In MFOTH, they're assuming a fair amount of iron getting pounded in, but even on routes that go mostly or all clean, you're going to have to bring a *lot* of gear with you. Think about it - for a 180 foot pitch, if you place gear every four feet, that's 45 placements (not considering backcleaning) in each pitch. And if some pitches are mostly wide and others are mostly small - just think about the amount of protection you need to haul up that wall!!! Now, given all that, and all the ropes, portaledges, etc - it's your choice, do you want to haul up that extra sling to put between every single set of biners? No fucking way!
Yes, the two biners might torque against each other in a fall, but it may be worth it to shave off the extra weight of all those extra slings.
As for putting just one biner on a piece - sure, sometimes its fine, but often just that extra two inches means the difference between horrendous rope drag and perfectly managable rope-drag. Especially at a transition to a traverse, and especially when the piece is on a piton.
GO
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rockguide
Oct 21, 2005, 9:22 PM
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two carabiners save weight and bulk over using a quickdraw. They are more unlikely to twist and unclip than a draw but more so than a single biner. They provide more rope drag than a draw but less than a single biner.
If one is out of draws and needs the rope drag reduction/reduced unclip of a quick draw consider sliding a nut down it's cable and putting a carabiner at both ends - instant draw. While it is less dynamic than a sling (which is relatively static anyhow) the stretch of the lead line is all you really need anyway.
Brian
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petsfed
Oct 21, 2005, 10:08 PM
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In reply to: pestsfed, I've done a little aid before, and I don't see why clipping two biners instead of a runnner would help you watch your pro more closely. Expain? I agree, trenchdigger, that two biners cuts off rope drag more than one. But, there's always the possibility of the biners putting extra force on each other because of torque. If your route is relatively straight, I don't think clipping only one biner would be a major problem. Plus, in really hard aid (not something I've ever done before) two biners would cause you to fall slightly farther than just one if you took a lead fall.
Its not that it will help you, you're just in a situation that allows you to mitigate the hazard caused by it.
The idea is that you'll never fall THAT far above your top piece so you can watch and quickly correct backclipping, cross loading, etc on that topmost piece much more easily. In principle, every single piece on a pitch is like that at somepoint, and you should never be so far above your last piece that you can't downaid and fix it. Given on long hook traverses and the like, that's not the case, but I wouldn't just clip two crabs together on my last piece before a hook traverse. Consider it the same reason a lot more rope soloists aid rather than free climb when they lead.
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adamtd
Oct 21, 2005, 11:32 PM
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Alright, try this on for size. I use the two biner method myself because when I place a piece and put a biner on it, that's my working biner, what I clip my entrier, daisies, and Rope biner. I use teh second biner for the rope because if I clip teh rope through that first biner and then stand on it, it could very well pinch my rope, abraid it, and make my life much mroe difficult when I go to top step. Hence teh second rope runs through a second biner so it isn't between hardware and rock. That's my reason for using it.
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z_rock90
Oct 21, 2005, 11:32 PM
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Ive seen sport climbers link two draws together. I don't do it because its two many breakage points for me. I carry a couple 24in runners with hotwires on them instead.
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jimdavis
Oct 22, 2005, 3:38 AM
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In reply to: It describes how, when aid climbing, on lead, one should attach one biner to a piece of pro, then clip a second one directly onto the first, then clip the lead rope through the second biner. I would never feel comfortable chaining biners in this way
If clipping biners together scares your...you might wanna stay away from Aid in general.
Cheers,
Jim
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curt
Oct 22, 2005, 3:50 AM
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In reply to: I was flipping through Freedom of the Hills, and I came across an interesting description. It describes how, when aid climbing, on lead, one should attach one biner to a piece of pro, then clip a second one directly onto the first, then clip the lead rope through the second biner. Now personally, under normal circumstances, I would never feel comfortable chaining biners in this way, and I would always use a runner. Even if it was a dire emergency, and I didn't have any runners, I would prefer to just clip a single biner to the piece and clip the rope directly to that. I don't know why anyone would chain biners this way; it's generally considered dangerous...
And, I'm guessing you are generally considered to be a n00b. Am I right? 8^)
Curt
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holdplease2
Oct 22, 2005, 4:09 AM
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My GOD.
Maybe someone could bump this over to aid? I'm surprised Lambone or EpicEd hasn't jumped in here...
OK. You clip a biner to the gear, then you clip your aider and daisy to that piece with their biner. Your job is to now stand up and reach hiiiiiigh. If you had a big fat runner in that system, you have now lost height, which is a big deal when aid climbing...long reaches = efficiency, and sometimes good gear, bolts and rivits are far apart.
Why is the biner placed on the gear in the first place, rather than just clipping your aider/daisy setup directly to the piece? Well, sometimes you do that, sometimes you don't...
IF the clip in hole is small (like a head or a rivit hanger) and will only accomodate one biner, you put a biner in that hole, than put your aider/daisy on that biner.
Here is Why: When you are hanging on your next dicy piece of crap aid pro, and now you want to remove your aider/daisy from the previous piece, you should (usually) first clip the rope to that piece....using the biner that is already there.
If you do not do this, and are forced to remove your aider and daisy before you can put a biner on the piece and clip it, for a time you are in no way connected to the piece of gear below you. If the piece you are on blows during this time, the piece below you never had a chance to catch you.
IF you are squirming and jumping around enough that your aider/daisy are able to UNCLIP themselves from the biner on the piece, you are a very very dicy aid climber.
Hope this helps. FWIW - When a piece will accomodate two biners I usually just clip my aider/daisy directly to the piece and add a biner/draw/whatever to the piece before unclipping my aider/daisy...
And the reason rope soloists aid rather than free? Free is scary, duh. ;)
-Kate.
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cracklover
Oct 22, 2005, 4:51 AM
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In reply to: Maybe someone could bump this over to aid?
Yup.
I don't really get your explanation, Kate. Maybe because I'm an aid noob, maybe because it's late, or who knows why, but here's the heart of it:
In reply to: OK. You clip a biner to the gear, then you clip your aider and daisy to that piece with their biner. Your job is to now stand up and reach hiiiiiigh. If you had a big fat runner in that system, you have now lost height, which is a big deal when aid climbing...long reaches = efficiency, and sometimes good gear, bolts and rivits are far apart.
In theory you could do exactly what you're saying, and once you move up to the next piece, simply clip short sling with a biner on it to the biner the gear is on, clip the rope into the bottom biner, unclip your aider/daisy from the top biner, and you're good to go. If I've got enough gear (which I never seem to have, actually I'm usually running out of biners) and I'm concerned about rope drag or ripping the piece of gear out if I don't extend the placement, then the above is exactly what I'll do.
and ...
In reply to: Here is Why: When you are hanging on your next dicy piece of crap aid pro, and now you want to remove your aider/daisy from the previous piece, you should (usually) first clip the rope to that piece....using the biner that is already there. If you do not do this, and are forced to remove your aider and daisy before you can put a biner on the piece and clip it, for a time you are in no way connected to the piece of gear below you. If the piece you are on blows during this time, the piece below you never had a chance to catch you.
If I'm reading you correctly, you're explaining why to clip into the *same* biner that your lower aider/daisy are on. Which often is fine! But I thought the question was about what to do when you don't want to clip into that piece directly - can you link biners, or do you need something soft in between them. Or did you mean something else when you said "the biner that is already there"?
I know I'm a monster aid noob, because I actually enjoy these types of conversations! :oops:
GO
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ridgeclimber
Oct 22, 2005, 4:42 PM
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In reply to: And, I'm guessing you are generally considered to be a n00b. Am I right? 8^) Curt
At aid, yes, but not in general. I haven't been climbing that long but it doesn't mean I'm a noob. I don't know why you found it necessary to make that comment.
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curt
Oct 22, 2005, 4:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And, I'm guessing you are generally considered to be a n00b. Am I right? 8^) Curt At aid, yes, but not in general. I haven't been climbing that long but it doesn't mean I'm a noob. I don't know why you found it necessary to make that comment.
Sorry. However, "not climbing that long" does make you a n00b. Linking oval carabiners (as in the picture posted earlier in this thread) used to be standard operating proceedure--back in the day.
Curt
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greenketch
Oct 22, 2005, 4:50 PM
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Ridge, don't get bent over the newb thing. Aid is a place in climbing that requires a big bag of tricks. Climbing generally makes us practice adapting to the enviroment. The more experience the more tricks that you know to adapt with. I'm not about to tell an experienced aid climber it is not good to link two biners. When they can show me a good reason that I should. Thus you reflect your newb status.
Patience young grasshopper
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ridgeclimber
Oct 22, 2005, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: Linking oval carabiners (as in the picture posted earlier in this thread) used to be standard operating proceedure--back in the day. Curt
Was it considered a different situation with non-oval biners? I don't see why it would be. Explain please?
In reply to: I'm not about to tell an experienced aid climber it is not good to link two biners. When they can show me a good reason that I should. Thus you reflect your newb status.
I never told an experienced climber what to do. I opened the thread with a question, not a statement. I'm just asking questions, that's all. :)
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paulc
Oct 22, 2005, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And, I'm guessing you are generally considered to be a n00b. Am I right? 8^) Curt At aid, yes, but not in general. I haven't been climbing that long but it doesn't mean I'm a noob. I don't know why you found it necessary to make that comment.
In case you haven't guessed it yet, Curt's favorite game is Identify the Noob. Not quite sure why, but unless you are fully noob he is pretty nice about it. I wouldn't get my knickers in a knot about it if I was you.
Ridge;
The reason that he specifically mentioned ovals is because back in the day, people were using them for everything, clipping aid, free, belay biners, rappel brakes etc. Even now they are still the cheapest biners you can get, and when you need 150+ biners, you may as well save some bucks to buy beer right?
The loading is different with non ovals obviously. Since I don't aid climb (/asbestos suit on), I'm going to step back now and let some one who knows tackle the question of if using non-ovals is better or worse technically in this application (/asbestos suit off?).
Paul
Edit for grammer error.
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landgolier
Oct 22, 2005, 6:13 PM
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Kate, Adam, and greenketch all have it right, though maybe Kate's explanation wasn't super-clear so I'll add my contribution to the murk. Hang an oval out of a tree, get on that sucker standing in 2 slings and with a prusic or something for a daisy (this is assuming you don't have aid gear). Lot going on on that biner, isn't there? Now hang another oval 4 feet from that (off of a 3/0 stainless fishing hook set into possibly rotten wood if you want an accurate hard aid feel), and get another set of slings going over there (let's pretend we're doing whole-hog 4 aider technique) and commence to get on that piece. Now look back at your first piece, and notice that 2 aiders and a daisy with a meatsack on the other end are clipped into it, but the rope isn't. Your job right now is to change all that without the squirrels laughing at you too badly, and it would be pretty nice if the rope got in the system before the daisy came off, now wouldn't it? And it would be kind of a harsh one if you clipped the rope straight to that biner, the top piece blew, and your rope got bound up in the biners (squirrel laughter in the back yard, core shots, 2 piece ropes, exploding meatsacks in the real world). And we're going to pretend that first oval is on a pin or something with room for only 1 biner, elsewise you could just throw a draw or biner through the monster loop on that C4 or Alien or whatever and go on about your business. Looping a sling on there would work, though it does create a sketchy moment when the gate is open and all that, and now we've got slingage and biners and all sorts of fun stuff on that biner, plus any time you have a sling hanging down that's something for your aiders to tangle in. You could girth a sling on there, which might get you out of trouble if you wanted to extend and were low on biners, but then again that might go better if maybe you clipped the rope without extension (biner-on-biner action), got your crap off of there, and then extended (belayer asleep yet? told you aid is slow). So what you do is you clip a biner/draw to the biner, get your rope on that, and roll onward. Is this turbo-safe? Probably not, though it's safer with ovals than D's. (clever observers will note that the OP's question kind of got glossed there)
Now, you ask, why didn't I exercise some foresight 5 minutes ago, and clip that sucker with a draw in the first place? Well, yeah, you could have done that, but then your choices were to either stand on the bottom biner of the draw (loss of range, slow pitches, running out of gear before the belay or beer before the summit), or clip aiders and daisy and crap into the top biner, which means you're probably going to sandwich the webbing of the draw and then stand on it, which is pretty hard on it.
Hope that's a little clearer. I encourage anybody who is interested in this stuff to find a tree or a crack or something and keep doing like 3 moves of aid over and over again without getting more than 10 feet off the ground and trying every crazy idea for how the system should work they can come up with. This stuff is a pain to explain because there are so many moving parts, but a couple of laps through it and it will all make perfect sense.
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ridgeclimber
Oct 22, 2005, 9:17 PM
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But are ovals significantly safer than d's for that purpose? They might be a little safer, but I can't imagine that it'd be a huge issue.
I also woner if, when two biners with gates opposed and reversed are being substituted for a locker when rigging a belay device, it would be better to use two ovals.....
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rngrchad
Oct 22, 2005, 10:10 PM
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In reply to: But are ovals significantly safer than d's for that purpose? They might be a little safer, but I can't imagine that it'd be a huge issue. I also woner if, when two biners with gates opposed and reversed are being substituted for a locker when rigging a belay device, it would be better to use two ovals.....
I don't know about you, but I would hate fiddling w/ two carabiners everytime I took someone off and on belay, or preparing for rappell. It's just plain more conveinent to use a single locker verses opposed ovals. Also two ovals rigged with a belay plate may cause too much friction for rappell.....and may make feeding rope out a bit more arduous (due to the added surface area) than one locker.
....this info coming to you from gear plug'n free climber....I have about 60ft of aid climbing under my fingertips.......go read Jon Long's book's Big Wall's.
climb on'
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ridgeclimber
Oct 22, 2005, 10:44 PM
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The added friction may even be an advantage in some circumstances. Even when it's disadvantageous, it can still be used in a pinch.
I wonder whether it would be safe to use two opposed/reversed biners with a munter hitch; they might be a little small, in that the hitch might not have a lot of room the reverse when pulling slack back through, but I'm not sure it would be unsafe, per se.
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holdplease2
Oct 22, 2005, 11:42 PM
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Well, I am on cold medicine.
Squirrils laughing?
I honestly can't tell what I was talking about, either. :oops:
I bet if you just tried it, you'd understand.
Coldclimb - I wish I could respond but I am really out of it. :(
-Kate.
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cracklover
Oct 23, 2005, 3:14 AM
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kate, hope you feel better!
In reply to: Coldclimb - I wish I could respond but I am really out of it. :( -Kate.
Um, did ColdClimb post and I missed it?
G:?:
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holdplease2
Oct 23, 2005, 4:26 AM
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Oh, Cracklover, I meant you. I've been away and your names are simliar...the two-word, one-word thing got me.
I am so cooked I had trouble logging on just now.
Sorry about that...
Thank you for the well-wishes,
-Kate.
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cracklover
Oct 23, 2005, 2:15 PM
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In reply to: Oh, Cracklover, I meant you. I've been away and your names are simliar...the two-word, one-word thing got me. I am so cooked I had trouble logging on just now. Sorry about that... Thank you for the well-wishes, -Kate.
That's what I figured. Poor thing - whatever cold medicine you're using, it must be good stuff!
GO
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j_ung
Oct 23, 2005, 3:15 PM
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j_ung moved this thread from General to Aid Climbing.
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kimgraves
Oct 23, 2005, 8:02 PM
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Can I give this a try?
Ovals: the reason to use ovals for aid is two fold that I can think of. For one thing, ovals are designed with a gate clearance so that you can clip in a rope while two biners are already clipped into it. The reason you need this gate clearance is due to the following aid sequence. Secondly since you have two biners clipped in, and alternately loaded, the biners would shift if the biner was a D shape. Ovals shift less. Personally, I’m using the BD wiregate ovals, which have both the classic shape, have a huge gate clearance, and are light in weight.
Aid Sequence: Every aider is attached to a daisy with a dedicated biner. The other end of the daisy is then girthed to your harness. If you’re using a two-aider system you have two daisys girth hitched to your harness and two dedicated biners – one for each daisy/aider. When I say "clip an aider", I really mean clip the biner attached to the aider. Assuming a two aider system (there are 3-4 aider systems as well that I’ve never used):
1) place a piece of pro and clip a biner to it (gate down and out).
2) retrieve one of the aiders you're currently standing in and clip it to the pro’s biner. (gate up and in)
3) test the pro.
4) reach down and retrieve the 2nd aider below and clip it too to the new pro.
5) climb up the two aiders (this is were the alternate loading would cause shifting) till you’re waist height with the pro biner. Note: at this point you have two biners in the pro-biner.
6) clip the rope to the pro-biner. (hence the need for the gate clearance)
6a) if you need to extend for potential rope drag, you do it in the same way you would for a trad placement - clip a sling to the pro-biner and then clip the rope to the sling with a second biner. You can clip an extension biner to the pro-biner to extend also, but that’s old school.
7) repeat.
The reason you don’t clip the rope until you’re waist high is that you don’t want to pull the rope up only to have it slip back. You’re moving fast and it’s a lot more work for both you and your belayer to be constantly taking in rope and paying it out. I've never soloed, but my guess is that if you’re soloing it’s impractical to take the rope out and then back in again as you move up. Just get waist high, then clip.
You must clip the rope before testing the new pro to avoid the possibility of taking a static fall onto your daisy. You never want to fall directly on your daisy. Falling on a static daisy puts a MASSIVE load onto the pro and can cause massive internal injurys. Only the rope is dynamic and designed to catch a fall.
Best, Kim
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ricardol
Oct 25, 2005, 1:40 AM
Post #33 of 35
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Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
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yikes ..
.. the best answer i can come up with is .. do a few pitches of aid (specially using 4 aiders) and you will understand why sometimes you would clip biner to biner ..
even if you use less than 4 aiders .. sometimes you bugger something up and you end up with biner-to-biner connections..
for example .. (and this always happens when the aid is dicey) ..
you go up on a piece .. my setup is 2 aiders.
Place the piece (say -- a pin or head -- or but -- whatever)
clip one carabiner to it.
clip one aider to it
stand on aider
clip 2nd aider to 1st aider (aiders are staggered)
climb up
place next piece
remove bottom aider, place on new piece
now before we go onto the next piece (we would test of course) you want to clip the rope to the previous piece. --
what if you buggered somethign up, and now cant get the gate clearance to throw in the rope ont he biner that is on the piece -- then you have little choice
1 - add a sling + biner
2 - just add a biner
.. i almost always choose 2 -- because i only carry about 8 slings on lead. and because usually there is no need for a sling when soloing.
-- if i can help it -- i dont use 2 biners per piece .. because that is ALOT of biners for 1 pitch .. but sometimes you can't help it.
-- also .. this problem does not come up on easy aid, because if the piece you are moving onto is bomber, and the pieces below are also bomber -- then i have no problems with getting onto the new piece before clipping in the piece i am coming off from...
i just change aiders -- then remove the aiders from the previous piece -- then throw the rope in -- (that is if i'm not backcleaning -- which on easy aid, you do alot of)
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tomtom
Oct 25, 2005, 5:27 PM
Post #34 of 35
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Registered: Jan 9, 2004
Posts: 366
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In reply to: The reason you don’t clip the rope until you’re waist high is that you don’t want to pull the rope up only to have it slip back. |
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curt
Oct 25, 2005, 5:37 PM
Post #35 of 35
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
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In reply to: In reply to: The reason you don’t clip the rope until you’re waist high is that you don’t want to pull the rope up only to have it slip back. The only reason you would fall is if the upper piece that you are standing on blows. The piece below catches the fall. So there's no reason to clip the rope to the piece you are currently standing on. People who pull the rope up to clip the high piece will take a longer fall (when that high piece blows) than if they just left the rope unclipped until they moved up.
You might want to give that a bit more thought. :wink:
Curt
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