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qwert
Nov 29, 2005, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: learn to tie a munter hitch, use the money you saved to buy beer. And it will come in handy when your rope turns into a huge tangle from that damn knot. I'm a fan of the ATC-XP for skinny ropes.
WTF are all you people doing wrong?
I have used (and still use) the munter for years, and have yet to encounter a single problem with it. but i am mostly using the TRE now.
My ATC XP is sitting in my closet most of the time, just next to my 8.
pretty much threads on the TRE on rc.com.
qwert
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palacial
Nov 29, 2005, 6:43 PM
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dont forget to think about the size of the rope or ropes that youll be using. most everything out there will handle the old 10.5 mm workhorse without too much trouble.
however, if you go out and get one of those cool 9.1 mm single ropes then you may start getting into trouble with the reverso, old style ATC and of course the grigri. simply put, you might not be able to get enough friction to hold the rope.
with a skinny single rope and the older tube devices, there are ways to mitigate the lack of sufficient friction to, for example hold a big whipper or rappel or backup a single, freehanging rope, but most beginners wont know these when they need em.
one right handed leather glove (or whatever) in the pack is a good measure of protection for the possibility of a big, unforseeable lead fall.
for rapping, an extra biner in the belay device works sometimes as does a munter hitch below the belay device. you obviously gotta figure this one out beforehand.
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chossmonkey
Nov 29, 2005, 6:49 PM
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In reply to: [...probably why many climbers who have been around for a while have a box full of them that they don't use :D
Are YOU, talkin' about ME?!
Huh? Are yeah?
It is true. :oops:
I have a bunch of barely used belay devices. The Reverso is the latest in the collection.
I really like the gray, because it doesn't show the dust as much as the other colors.
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martinheynert
Nov 29, 2005, 7:23 PM
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For sport climbing (bolted anchors or gym) I recommend the GriGri. Automatic blockade. And you have both hands free when your buddy hangs in the harness to check the route.
Do not use a GriGri (because of the high impact force on the running belays and anchors) for trad climbing.
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singin_rocker
Nov 29, 2005, 7:30 PM
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Well, I'd hate for anyone to feel like they had wasted money on a belay device they don't plan to use.
I'm interested in the reverso. Make an offer, maybe I'll take it.
Waylan
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chossmonkey
Nov 30, 2005, 3:23 AM
Post #31 of 61
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In reply to: Do not use a GriGri (because of the high impact force on the running belays and anchors) for trad climbing.
This is mostly not true.
It's only an issue if you were to attach the Gri-Gri to an anchor or the belayer is tied off super tight to an anchor. I won't go into all the details, if anyone really wants to know all about it they can do a search.
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omegaprime
Nov 30, 2005, 4:09 AM
Post #32 of 61
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In reply to: In reply to: I got an 8 first, which was a mistake. Do mostly sport, so tube is better. Could you explain why? I think it could help. I started using an 8 for sport climbing and still use an 8. I use a munter when belaying a second on multi-pitch. I haven't come up with a real need for anything else. That said, I've never used a tube device. I have used a gri-gri and can't come up with any good reasons why I would want to use one again. I have to admit, I've seen the ATC XP and I like it. The ability to pull that thing back on the teeth while belaying my hang-dog partners is a plus. I'm going to look into it. IMHO simple is a great way to go. It seems to me it would be very hard to set up an 8 incorrectly, but just wait... someone will prove me wrong. Waylan
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was taught that 8 is originally designed for rappelling. Due to that, the features are not really optimized for belaying a leader, such that an 8 can accidentally load the gate if you're not careful. A noob busy belaying a leader normally do this when they don't pay attention to they belay device. Seen it lots of times, and I have actually done it once or twice when I started out. Yes, a lot of people still use it for belaying sport, and I did it for a while too.
To me tube is better because it doesn't kink the rope as much, and I don't have to pay much attention to the belay device orientation as an 8 when I belay. Instead I can focus more on the leader and his needs. Plus the atc-xp allows me to lock a falling leader much more effectively than an 8 due to its xp mode.
The mistake I mention was personal, cos I've already been told that tube is easier to use for noob (which I was at the time) and what 8 does to the rope, but I went ahead and bought an 8. I really kinked my rope a lot when I was using it. :)
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devonick
Nov 30, 2005, 4:56 AM
Post #33 of 61
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an 8 loading a gate of a carabiner weakens the biner so much that the gate actually broke at 6N
i would steer well clear of 8's as a noob
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thetroutscout
Nov 30, 2005, 7:10 AM
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Get a Trango B-52 and never look back. I've loved mine. Rumor has it it's been beefed up a bit. I'd like to see a new one.
^^ike
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singin_rocker
Nov 30, 2005, 8:49 AM
Post #35 of 61
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In reply to: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was taught that 8 is originally designed for rappelling. Due to that, the features are not really optimized for belaying a leader, such that an 8 can accidentally load the gate if you're not careful. A noob busy belaying a leader normally do this when they don't pay attention to they belay device. Seen it lots of times, and I have actually done it once or twice when I started out. Yes, a lot of people still use it for belaying sport, and I did it for a while too.
I can't correct you because I don't know anything about that. I can say that it does some rope twisting, I've seen that. It hasn't been a huge problem for me even when I use a munter the other half of the time. Could be that I'm twisting it the opposite direction with the munter? :?
As for it loading the gate, I guess anything's possible. I hadn't considered that, and probably would not have. I was about to ask why that couldn't happen with one of the tube devices but I see it now. :idea:
I don't know if it's appropriate to ask in the context of this thread, but as for rapelling, what are the cons of a tube device?
Waylan
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climbinginchico
Nov 30, 2005, 8:58 AM
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In reply to: As for it loading the gate, I guess anything's possible. I hadn't considered that, and probably would not have. I was about to ask why that couldn't happen with one of the tube devices but I see it now. :idea: Waylan
Except for the Omega SBG II. I hate that POS. :evil:
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omegaprime
Nov 30, 2005, 9:09 AM
Post #37 of 61
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In reply to: I can't correct you because I don't know anything about that. I can say that it does some rope twisting, I've seen that. It hasn't been a huge problem for me even when I use a munter the other half of the time. Could be that I'm twisting it the opposite direction with the munter? :?
In reply to: I don't know if it's appropriate to ask in the context of this thread, but as for rapelling, what are the cons of a tube device?
Only thing that I can think of is its inability to handle ropes of all diameters, unlike an 8. You either can't fit in bigger diameter ropes, or it won't provide adequate friction with smaller diameter ropes (read: very fast rappel).
Other than that I can't think of anything else, but most probably its due to my limited experience in climbing. Perhaps someone else might provide more cons for rappelling using tube devices.
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azrockclimber
Nov 30, 2005, 12:32 PM
Post #38 of 61
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regular ATC
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daithi
Nov 30, 2005, 12:38 PM
Post #39 of 61
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I definitely wouldn't recommend the eight as a belay device. Use a tube device and discover why the eight has become almost obsolete as a belay device almost everywhere. They kink your rope a lot less and are a lot easier to feed slack quickly when belaying leaders.
That said, I was belayed on a redpoint attempt this weekend by an Austrian climber who was belaying with a figure of eight. So if it is the device you are comfortable with, go for it. However, if you are just looking for a device to buy realise there are many vastly superior belay devices out there.
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martinheynert
Nov 30, 2005, 2:22 PM
Post #40 of 61
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In reply to: In reply to: Do not use a GriGri (because of the high impact force on the running belays and anchors) for trad climbing. This is mostly not true. . |
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hosh
Dec 1, 2005, 1:11 AM
Post #41 of 61
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In reply to: I do not believe the gri-gri to be a good device to start with. It provides a false sense of security and develops bad belaying habits. Later on when you are more experienced belaying with a standard tube device then get a gri-gri for sport climbing outings if you like. ... Hope this helps you out. Cheers
pretty much the best advice about a Gri-gri that you could expect from this site. I am not a very big Gri-gri fan (though they are handy to have around from time to time) and I feel that beginning climbers should know how to belay with a standard device (and a munter).
hosh.
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chossmonkey
Dec 1, 2005, 5:05 PM
Post #42 of 61
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Do not use a GriGri (because of the high impact force on the running belays and anchors) for trad climbing. This is mostly not true. . Check Petzl's fall simulator on www.petzl.com and belive it! Or fall and zip your running belays (friends pp.) one by one out until you reach ground.
While the Fall Simulator http://www.petzl.com/...5&SousFamille=&News= is interesting, it doesn't properly replicate real life. If you noticed there are no 3/8" (10mm) bolts only 12mm (approx. 1/2"). Could this be because 3/8" bolts would break in many of the "simulated falls" using a Gri Gri?
There was one simulation I did where the Gri Gri broke two pieces of gear but the Reverso held, not breaking any. With 3 meters of rope slippage through the Reverso, I'm not sure if the pieces didn't break because of the different device, or if the climber would have hit the ground anyway?
I emailed Petzl about the values used. I'm willing to bet that all energy absorption on the belay end is from rope slippage. We'll have to see what they have to say if they write back.
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martinheynert
Dec 1, 2005, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: I'm willing to bet that all energy absorption on the belay end is from rope slippage. |
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reg
Dec 1, 2005, 5:16 PM
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osrever a use i. it love! ummmm i mean - i use a reverso, love it! :lol:
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kimgraves
Dec 1, 2005, 5:36 PM
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I hate to break it to you, but you need four devices. Most people start off with a ATC-XP. When they find out how awful it is for belaying the second on a multipitch they get a Reverso. Then when the limitations of that become apparent they get a Grigri. Then you end up needing two Gri's because your partner can't afford one. So you end up buying a second.
You can avoid all this hassle by buying all four devises right up front. Or you can do it like everyone else and buy one at a time. But you will end up owning all four. :roll:
Best, Kim
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hillbillywannabe
Dec 1, 2005, 5:41 PM
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i am a noob, and i am not planning on going out and buying a bunch o' belay devices, i just like to be educated... so here is my question.
why would you need an auto blocker?
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reg
Dec 1, 2005, 5:48 PM
Post #47 of 61
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hillbillywannabe: cause it (reverso) does the elementary stuff - belay/rap -and autoblocks! when your ready to bring up seconds and know how to build anchors - you already got the autoblock device. simple.
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kimgraves
Dec 1, 2005, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: i am a noob, and i am not planning on going out and buying a bunch o' belay devices, i just like to be educated... so here is my question. why would you need an auto blocker?
The ATC, and all of it's iterations, hasn't really changed in design for 30 odd years - the one I originally used was made by Salewa. They're good for catching a falling leader, but they have lots of limitations for all the other things you want/need to do. For example, holding a hangdog while they figure things out is hard with an ATC. They also are awful for belaying a second up. There are many configurations where an ATC is just plain awkward to use. For example, if you need to belay directly off the anchor rather than your harness it's almost impossible to lock off properly. You can do it, but it's not easy. And forget about holding a hanging second for any great length of time. So an autolocking device becomes almost mandatory for belaying the second. So at a minimum the second needs an ATC type device and the leader a Reverso type.
There have been long discussion about using a Grigri for belaying the leader and the second in a trad environment which I recommend to you. I now use a Grigri for both second and leader. You trade off weight for security and flexibility. This is why Gri's are used in big wall climbing. But I agree with other posters that you should start with standard devices until you find a need for the Gri.
Best, Kim
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granite_grrl
Dec 1, 2005, 6:26 PM
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In reply to: Sure! What other than rope slippage over the friction point can catch a fall "soft"? The lips of the reverso rope channel in conjunction with your brake hand (and a glove..) destroys the fall energy.
The amount of rope out, a low impact force rating of a rope, hopping when leader falls, use of a sceamer, the number of pieces the rope goes through, the angle of the rope through the peices. All this "destroys" (transfers) the energy of the fall.
Frankly if the reverso will allow as much slippage as chossmonkey says I would be worried about a fall close to the ground (where there isn't much rope out/pieces in to absorb the force as up higher...and the reverso would slip more I assume).
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chossmonkey
Dec 2, 2005, 7:09 PM
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I was playing with the Petzl Real Life Climbing Simulator/ See What Will Happen When You Belay Trad With A Gri Gri Shower.
How do you get 101 meters of slippage through a Reverso, especially when there are already 50 meters out? That's a long friggin' rope!
Really I think all this really points to the fact the Reversos aren't safe, and everything should be bolted with 12mm bolts so we can belay with Gri Gris all the time.
:lol:
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