Anybody study the behavior of the Japanese nation during WWII? Not exactly a study in the reverence for humanity.

7) (This is my big finish) It costs far more to execute someone than lock them up for life. Counterintuative yes, but true. Mandatory measures make executions cost millions each.

bullets for my gun cost 9 cents a piece. send them to my house ill do it for free

1) Its not a deterrent.

2) Did I say PERCEIVED offense? Yeah that's right.
How about that guy sentenced to die, imprisoned for 9 years, then proved innocent with DNA?
Would have been pretty hard to unring THAT bell.

4) Its more sizzle than steak. Governors can use it to say that they're tough on crime without improving schools or other services that really improve people's lives (the true method of treating the cause rather than treating the symptom).

6) If you REALLY want to punish somebody you put them in a cage, throw away the key and let them die of their own accord.

Anybody study the behavior of the Japanese nation during WWII? Not exactly a study in the reverence for humanity.

It costs far more to execute someone than lock them up for life. Counterintuative yes, but true.

If you agree let's hear from you. If you don't I will find you and kill you just to prove they can't catch me (or at least #3).

bullets for my gun cost 9 cents a piece. send them to my house ill do it for free

Well the schedule says an hour and a half from now. Anyboidy want to venture a call?
I suspect it will go down as planned.

i hope it goes down. an eye for an eye in my book

I think not cool to hire one man to kill another, and say "its ok, you're just doing your job", and then send him home to his wife and kids. f--- that.

I've often said that the solution to the war on terror is the same as that for the war on drugs. We must endeavor to create a world that people want to be a part OF rather than escape FROM.
To do that we must have vision rather than reflex.

Didn't Illinois do some DNA testing a couple of years back and then release something like 20% of the inmates on death row there? That kind of data (if it's right; I'm working from memory here) shows that we've probably executed at least 200 innocent men. Accepting that is evil.

Since simple warehousing runs about $36K/year I say prison is more cost effective method of removing the offender

Well, isn't the same thing as sending troops into battle? What's different? In both cases, the people fighting eachother are probably unassuming kids with normal lives.

So let's go softer on crime and tougher on schools? We'll end up with well educated criminals. Brilliant.

What about the inmates that are supposedly reformed and then once out of jail reoffend.

Of course there will always be criminals but I think if you provided a good education and the right kind of opportunities for people, they would be less likely to turn to crime.

OK reno, I apologize. I really did think you trolling but now I have yet another tome to add to my library.

Let the debate be insightful and interesting.

Interesting point, Phil. The State of Washington, for example, had recidivism rates as high as 57% for murder (only robbery is higher.... probably due to some 4,619 people in prison for theft, and only 63 for murder.)

Part of the problem with re-offenders is the nature of our penal system. About 25% of those initially imprisoned for non-violent offences are sentenced a second time for a violent offense.

In other words, you go in a drug-user and you come out a violent criminal. Simple solution seems to be to change the way we handle the war on drugs. Unfortunately, you can't expect anyone to take an honest look at effects of the Drug War

I think you're pretty spot-on accurate there, iltripp.

I'm just gonna repost this little bit:




For posterity's sake, you know :wink:

There is an Aussie drug mule who has just been executed in a Singaporean jail today. He knew the risks, he was caught with 480 grams of heroin strapped to his body. Enough hits for 26,000 doses. He was of course very remorseful but the officials of that country refused to bow to pressure to commute his sentence to life. I am fully supportive of that country enforcing their laws.

except the prisons are ALREADY overcrowded, causing endless griping by civil rights groups on behalf of inmates. But the N.I.M.B.Y. ethic prevents more prisons being built. For the 1000 people executed since 1977 we would need at least one more large maximum security facility.

I'm not saying space is a good reason for killing people, but let's not be so casual about "simple warehousing." It's not even close to simple.

The report, titled The New Landscape of Imprisonment: Mapping America’s Prison Expansion, was released by the Urban Institute in April. The study focused on the changes in the last 25 years in the 10 states with the largest prison increases—California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, New York, Ohio, and Texas. Entire communities are now dependent economically on the mushrooming prisons.

The construction boom is fueled by the sharp and continuing rise in incarceration. Between 1980 and 2002 the number of those held in state or federal prisons increased from just over half a million to 2,033,000. People behind bars, on parole, or on probation more than tripled over the same period to 6.7 million.

Recent reports by Reuters and other media, based in part on facts provided by the Sentencing Project, a research and advocacy group based in Washington, D.C., show that during this time physical abuse and degradation of inmates by prison guards has been widespread. In addition to beatings, this has included routine stripping of prisoners in front of other inmates before moving them to another prison and forcing newly arrived inmates to wear black hoods.

In the states with the largest prison increases, the New Landscape of Imprisonment study reveals that one-third of all counties have at least one prison—an increase from 13 percent in 1979. Across the nation, the number of state prisons alone grew from 592 in 1979 to 1,023 in the year 2000.

We're arresting 700,000 thousand people a year for WEED, dude! Absurdity!

Well, it aint that complicated, because we're incarcerating people at ever higher rates. Apparently we must have goddam fusion scientists running the penal colonies? And do you think killing more offenders would actually create more space in prisons for others? We're arresting 700,000 thousand people a year for WEED, dude! Absurdity! Maybe if kill off more we can arrest 701,000! Sweet!

It's no secret that prison construction is at an all time high...

Surely you understand that there is a vast difference between getting arrested for a dime bag of Colombian Gold and going to state or federal prison for murder.

You don't honestly think that everyone arrested for possession of pot is going to Folsom or Angola, do you?

Again... very easy to solve if we were to take care of this silly little drug war.

Surely you understand that there is a vast difference between getting arrested for a dime bag of Colombian Gold and going to state or federal prison for murder.

You don't honestly think that everyone arrested for possession of pot is going to Folsom or Angola, do you?

Prisoners sentenced for drug offenses constituted the largest group of Federal inmates (55%) in 2003. Federal prisons held 86,972 sentenced drug offenders, compared to 52,782 at yearend 199

In 2002, drug law violators comprised 21.4% of all adults serving time in State prisons - 265,000 out of 1,237,500 State prison inmates

Over 80% of the increase in the federal prison population from 1985 to 1995 was due to drug convictions

In 1997, there were 55,069 drug offenders in federal prisons (out of a total Federal prison population of 88,018 that year). Of these, 10,094 were in for possession, 40,053 were in for trafficking, and 4,922 were in for other drug crimes.

In 1997, there were 216,254 drug offenders in state prisons (out of a total State prison population of 1,046,706 that year). Of these, 92,373 were in for possession, 117,926 were in for trafficking, and 5,955 were in for other drug crimes

1. In 2004, 44.2 percent of the 1,745,712 total arrests in the US for
drug abuse violations were for marijuana -- a total of 771,605.
Of those, 684,319 people were arrested for possession alone.
By contrast in 2000, a total of 734,497 Americans were arrested for
marijuana offenses, of which 646,042 were for possession alone.

Marijuana Arrests and Total Drug Arrests in the US
Year Total Drug Arrests Total MJ Arrests
2004 1,745,712 771,605
2003 1,678,192 755,186
2002 1,538,813 697,082
2001 1,586,902 723,628
2000 1,579,566 734,497
1999 1,532,200 704,812
1998 1,559,100 682,885
1997 1,583,600 695,201
1996 1,506,200 641,642
1995 1,476,100 588,964
1990 1,089,500 326,850
1980 580,900 401,982

Year MJ Trafficking/Sale Arrests MJ Possession Arrests
2004 87,286 684,319
2003 92,300 662,886
2002 83,096 613,986
2001 82,519 641,109
2000 88,455 646,042
1999 84,271 620,541
1998 84,191 598,694
1997 88,682 606,519
1996 94,891 546,751
1995 85,614 503,350
1990 66,460 260,390
1980 63,318 338,664

Who cares? The answer is irrelevant to my argument, that the idea that the death penalty saves some meaningful amount of space.

Reading your comments, it sounds like you're stating that drug arrests are taking up a lot of space, and if we got rid of those, we'd have more space to imprison people for murder.

Is that what you're saying, or am I just missing your point?

Like I said if we didn't make criminals of people for what they put in their own bodies (which THEY not the government owns) then we would have far more room in our prisons for people who put things in OTHER peoples bodies.

Short story: My GF and I were arrested last year for being naked on a deserted beach in Florida.

They didn't book us and allow a call until 1:45AM the follow morning, which put us there into the following calendar day.

So I`m seeing ruf and the misses hanging around cooling their heels with the other inmates with nary a stitch of clothing on. I bet he was anxious to get to that telephone. Hi Mum, we got ourselves into a spot of bother, can you come and bail me out of jail and while you are at it can you bring a couple of trench coats too. :lol:

Reading your comments, it sounds like you're stating that drug arrests are taking up a lot of space, and if we got rid of those, we'd have more space to imprison people for murder.

Is that what you're saying, or am I just missing your point?