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bobruef
Jan 3, 2006, 1:40 PM
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In reply to: Was this the first fall this orange alien ever had to hold? So, in other words, if you had bounce tested it in a static sling (which puts tremendous forces on a peice correct me if I'm wrong?) you might would of averted this near disaster. Comments?
seriously?
I think it a bit unreasonable to expect leaders to preform much more than a thourough visual inspection of their protection. I don't think that the cllimber in question is in any way at fault for not anticipating the structural failure of his cam.
This is clearly an issue of quality control, and not of climber incompitance.
Do you bounce test all of your protection with a static sling before you lead above it (free climbing, not aiding)?
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edge
Jan 3, 2006, 1:45 PM
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In reply to: Was this the first fall this orange alien ever had to hold? So, in other words, if you had bounce tested it in a static sling (which puts tremendous forces on a peice correct me if I'm wrong?) you might would of averted this near disaster. Comments?
Andy, how do you bounce test free climbing gear, without defying the definition?
Also, shouldn't gear manufacturers make sure that whatever hits the shelf is safe, or at least made to the best of their abilities? It looks like CCH just fokked up here, and needs to admit it. The fact that this was noted months ago (on another forum) does not help their case.
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piton
Jan 3, 2006, 2:22 PM
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looks like they ran out of silver braze and used 60/40 solder! CCH really needs to stop using flame to braze these joints and switch to Induction Heating!
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crotch
Jan 3, 2006, 2:51 PM
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As a member of the cult, it's sad to see that CCH has slipped.
It may be unreasonable to expect climbers to bounce test every sling, cam, or biner on the ground before leading with them but this is a good reminder that having only one piece between you and the ground isn't really a sound protection scheme.
To the original poster: Nice job arranging a protection SYSTEM and backing things up.
To the rest of us: Now is the time to bounce test those new aliens you've got on your rack.
To CCH: Sell the Alien brand to Malcolm Daly, buy some beer and go climbing for a few years.
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bobruef
Jan 3, 2006, 3:04 PM
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In reply to: Sell the Alien brand to...
You read my mind.
I'd be thrilled to hear that another well know climbing company purchased the rights to Aliens.
I'm sure those of you who sell them would be thrilled as well!
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chossmonkey
Jan 3, 2006, 3:12 PM
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In reply to: Was this the first fall this orange alien ever had to hold? So, in other words, if you had bounce tested it in a static sling (which puts tremendous forces on a piece correct me if I'm wrong?) you might would of averted this near disaster. Comments?
I don't think was meant as a flame, as a few people have seem to have taken it.
It seems like there was a similar, Alien falling apart on a small fall, thread about a year ago.
Since CCH seems to be having quality issues, it seems like a simple bounce test while on the ground might not be a bad idea before trusting your life to it.
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chossmonkey
Jan 3, 2006, 3:24 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sell the Alien brand to... You read my mind. I'd be thrilled to hear that another well know climbing company purchased the rights to Aliens. I'm sure those of you who sell them would be thrilled as well!
Not to hijack this thread and start a flame war but,..... :tinfoilhat:
Maybe Madrock bought the rights and they are being made in China now? :twisted:
:lol:
Seriously though, here are some older threads related to Alien failure:
http://rockclimbing.com/...topic=80507&forum=23
http://www.rockclimbing.com/....php?p=992499#992499
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edge
Jan 3, 2006, 3:34 PM
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In reply to: Maybe Madrock bought the rights and they are being made in China now? :twisted: :lol:
Please do not attribute any gear that is inferior as automatically being made by Madrock, or by hardworking Chinese, unless you have insider information.
That company stands by their name; as all good companies should.
Associatiing an inferior product with them is unfair.
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healyje
Jan 3, 2006, 3:39 PM
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In reply to: As a member of the cult, it's sad to see that CCH has slipped. . . . To CCH: Sell the Alien brand to Malcolm Daly, buy some beer and go climbing for a few years.
Now there is a good idea...
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bobruef
Jan 3, 2006, 3:39 PM
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In reply to: It seems like there was a similar, Alien falling apart on a small fall, thread about a year ago. Since CCH seems to be having quality issues, it seems like a simple bounce test while on the ground might not be a bad idea before trusting your life to it.
I'll definately agree with you there. I'll likely bounce test mine now!
On the other hand, what about the people who climb above aliens every day that do not follow the posts on this site? CCH needs to be held accountable.
When you are marketing a product like cams, from a business prospective, the consumer's trust in the device to hold a fall is almost more valuable than its actual ability (only talking about selling cams here, please don't misread) Many noobs, like myslef, search the threads on this site extensively before deciding which cams to purchase. It wouldn't take too many customer complaints before a large amount of their business is lost to other companies.
Again, from a business vantage point (not a climber's), It's not as much how frequently a customer recieves a defective device, but how you handle the situation once the problem happens.
The guys at CCH are squandering the gold mine they sit on.
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andy_reagan
Jan 3, 2006, 3:46 PM
Post #36 of 522
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In reply to: In reply to: Was this the first fall this orange alien ever had to hold? So, in other words, if you had bounce tested it in a static sling (which puts tremendous forces on a piece correct me if I'm wrong?) you might would of averted this near disaster. Comments? I don't think was meant as a flame, as a few people have seem to have taken it. It seems like there was a similar, Alien falling apart on a small fall, thread about a year ago. Since CCH seems to be having quality issues, it seems like a simple bounce test while on the ground might not be a bad idea before trusting your life to it.
Of course no flame. Probably should of worded my post differently, but yes, I was suggesting going beyond a simple visual inspection when buying new gear and bounce testing it before trusting it and climbing above it. The only reason I suggested this is because I have never heard of doing this with new gear, but in light of the rash of defects seems like it may be a good idea!
Edge: No, you would not have to do this on every free climb. I would wager your belayer would think you were a tad "touched." :lol:
Have fun, be safe!
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insainio
Jan 3, 2006, 3:50 PM
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thanks to everyone who has given feed back on this issue. Here are some answers to some of the questions raised.
The alien was purchased a week before this climbing trip as a Christmas gift.
It had never been fallen on, (and only placed once)
And no, it did not occur to me that I should bounce test the piece.
I did e-mail CCH last night with all of the details of what happened and pictures. I'll let you all know what they say.
Thanks again,
Kevin
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j_ung
Jan 3, 2006, 4:03 PM
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Would you mind posting a close up profile shot of the head of your busted orange Alien? I'd really like to see if it's one of the ones that were drilled incorrectly, RE, the Supertopo thread.
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piton
Jan 3, 2006, 4:09 PM
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looked like a cold braze joint
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edge
Jan 3, 2006, 4:09 PM
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In reply to: Would you mind posting a close up profile shot of the head of your busted orange Alien? I'd really like to see if it's one of the ones that were drilled incorrectly, RE, the Supertopo thread.
The SuperTopo thread is months old, and well documented.
If that cam was mis-drilled and CCH allows them to still be sold without a recall, then I would not trust any of their gear in the future, regardless of their reputation or previous history.
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insainio
Jan 3, 2006, 4:23 PM
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In reply to: Would you mind posting a close up profile shot of the head of your busted orange Alien? I'd really like to see if it's one of the ones that were drilled incorrectly, RE, the Supertopo thread.
http://img.villagephotos.com/...1130263/DSCF0042.JPG
It looked OK to me, but it was my first orange alien so I had nothing to compare it to.
Kevin
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mistertyler
Jan 3, 2006, 4:37 PM
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In reply to: I did e-mail CCH last night with all of the details of what happened and pictures. I'll let you all know what they say.
What?! Are you crazy?!? By contacting CCH to ask for an explanation you have recklessly endangered the life of this thread. Have you even considered just how difficult it will be to make the case that CCH is doomed as a company should they respond reasonably and responsibly to your inquiry?
I expended considerable effort composing a wild, bilious rant about CCH filled with unsubstantiated but difficult-to-counter accusations and perfectly formed, irrelevant proclamations of lost-loyalty, and now you've ruined it!
The next thing you know some idiot will pick up the phone and call them at (307) 721-9385.
*Sigh*
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bobruef
Jan 3, 2006, 5:00 PM
Post #43 of 522
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In reply to: In reply to: I did e-mail CCH last night with all of the details of what happened and pictures. I'll let you all know what they say. What?! Are you crazy?!? By contacting CCH to ask for an explanation you have recklessly endangered the life of this thread. Have you even considered just how difficult it will be to make the case that CCH is doomed as a company should they respond reasonably and responsibly to your inquiry? I expended considerable effort composing a wild, bilious rant about CCH filled with unsubstantiated but difficult-to-counter accusations and perfectly formed, irrelevant proclamations of lost-loyalty, and now you've ruined it! The next thing you know some idiot will pick up the phone and call them at (307) 721-9385. *Sigh*
ah, yes, a good response out of CCH.
Something we should all expect after the previous fiasco involving the same orange cam, and their deft handling of it.
irrelevant proclamations of lost-loyalty?
With the pevious incident, CCH demonstrated their poor commitment to safety, manufacturing standards, quality control, and customer service all in one fell swoop.
Now some dude's brand-new medium-sized cam exploded after a less than severe fall.
Irrelevant?...Realy?
I will concede that speculation on CCH's response may be premature, but hardly unfounded. What we're seing out of them can hardly be mistaken for the beginnings of a fould trend.
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mistertyler
Jan 3, 2006, 5:24 PM
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In reply to: ah, yes, a good response out of CCH. Something we should all expect after the previous fiasco involving the same orange cam, and their deft handling of it. Now some dude's brand-new medium-sized cam exploded after a less than severe fall. Irrelevant?...Realy? I will concede that speculation on CCH's response may be premature, but hardly unfounded. What we're seing out of them can hardly be mistaken for the beginnings of a fould trend.
Pro failure is obviously something to be concerned about. The point of my post was to mock all the ridiculous, irrelevant posts both from this thread, previous threads here on rc.com, and especially on supertopo.com that add no useful information to help get to the bottom of these issues. There were a slurry of posts on supertopo that even ripped on their website.
I'm in f-ing Thailand and it took me 2 minutes to call CCH via Skype and talk to a live person. The guy told me he was "very concerned" about any gear failure and implored the OP to call him ASAP.
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edge
Jan 3, 2006, 5:33 PM
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In reply to: I'm in f-ing Thailand and it took me 2 minutes to call CCH via Skype and talk to a live person.
Did you catch this person's name; and care to share it? I need to talk to them about this as well.
Thanks in advance!
Loran
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fishercrack
Jan 3, 2006, 5:57 PM
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my email to cch has seen no reply, and they are not answering their phone. Sure, they are probably very worried, but their lack of customer service and public relations is disturbing. They have a user account (cchaliens). Why couldn't they at least log on and make some sort of statement that shows that they are concerned, or at least investigating the incident?
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insainio
Jan 3, 2006, 6:09 PM
Post #47 of 522
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In reply to: What?! Are you crazy?!? By contacting CCH to ask for an explanation you have recklessly endangered the life of this thread. Have you even considered just how difficult it will be to make the case that CCH is doomed as a company should they respond reasonably and responsibly to your inquiry?
The purpose of this thread was to see if other people have had similar experiences and to raise awareness of the issue. Not to "make a case" against CCH.
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epic_ed
Jan 3, 2006, 6:23 PM
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I think you've done a fair job of posting the facts. I, too, have long been a drinker of the CCH Kool-Aid and some accusations against them in the past have been simply ridiculous. These threads about the Orange cams are a different matter.
I sense a class action lawsuite waiting in the wings, especially if CCH continues to take no action to fix the problem. I'm hoping they will make some sort of public statement about what the hell is going on. I personally own 36 Aliens and trust them with my life, but I wouldn't trust any purchased in the last six months until CCH clarifies the nature and scope of the manufacturing problem.
Ed
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tradgal
Jan 3, 2006, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: I sense a class action lawsuite waiting in the wings, especially if CCH continues to take no action to fix the problem. I'm hoping they will make some sort of public statement about what the hell is going on.
This thread was posted YESTERDAY.... An email was sent by the person who owns the cam--LAST NIGHT!!! Are we forgetting that? While this is a small company in terms of climbing, this is a company. And, most companies have red tape, procedures that must be followed. You aren't going to have Joe Blow who answers the phone and responds to email release a statement or come up with a plan to remedy this situation. I would imagine, like any business, they are taking the proper measures.
While no one should stand for poor quality and product failures--especially when they involve one's life--we have to remember that this was isolated (in terms of a cam "exploding"). And, it's not that CCH is necessarily ignoring or not logging into the most up to date news source being RC.com (because I am sure that's their top priority) they just have not responded as of today (less than 24 hours after an EMAIL was sent). And, let me remind you that you don't have to be logged on to read this particular thread.
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paganmonkeyboy
Jan 3, 2006, 6:49 PM
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In reply to: my email to cch has seen no reply, and they are not answering their phone. Sure, they are probably very worried, but their lack of customer service and public relations is disturbing. They have a user account (cchaliens). Why couldn't they at least log on and make some sort of statement that shows that they are concerned, or at least investigating the incident?
Could be that no one is there at this instant ? No One qualified to address this issue ? Day after the long weekend/week+ of vacation and all that sort of thing ?
I'd give CCH the benefit of the doubt for a little while yet...
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