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sungam
Feb 13, 2006, 8:21 PM
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Right, next week i'm heading off up to glen coe(hopefully) and there is a chance of multi pitching while there.
The only problem is: my mentor climbing partner will not be there, it's just me and my mate mark, and niether of us have multi pitched extensivly enough to stride confidantly into the hills, so i was just wondering (i know this won't make up for proper training, i'm going climbing with him this weekend and i'll get him to show me whats up then) if anyone has any really usfull comments or tricks that usually take years to realize, but that you could pass to me and save me the time.
I know how to set up a stable anchor and suchlike, but any usfull tips would be greatly appricated.
-Magnus
p.s. don't give me any crap about doing a thread search- i'm a lazy troll.
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kimgraves
Feb 13, 2006, 9:04 PM
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Hi Magnus,
Okay, I have to ask, what's "bugger up?" Is it getting yourself into a possition where you say - "Ah, bugger!?" In other words, is it the equivelent to our saying "fuck up" or "Ah, fuck?" The reason I ask is Andy Kirkpatrick, who hails from your part of the globe, says he's a "fuck man" - you know - "Fuck me; Fuck this; Fuck, Fuck, Fuck." So why would you "bugger up rather than fuck up?" I mean, would you go around saying, "bugger, bugger, bugger" rather than "fuck, fuck, fuck?"
Kim
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giza
Feb 13, 2006, 9:13 PM
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bugger:
1. British usage for a fellow, a chap.
2. Disparaging and offensive term for a despicable or contemptible person regarded or referred to as a sodomite .
3. A sodomite , especially the active-partner , the pedicator or insertor , as opposed to the passive-partner , the receiver or pedicant. See sodomite for synonyms.
4. To perform anal-intercourse ; to sodomize . See anal-copulation for synonyms.
5. Buggers! or Bugger me! a British exclamation of surprise.
6. To persons of British birth or background, a) a pejorative and insulting vernacular: You silly bugger! or: b) a colloquial but non-derogatory term: The little bugger .
Etymology: From medieval Latin Bulgaris , Bulgars, who were regarded as a heretic people who, allegedly, practiced anal-intercourse .
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sungam
Feb 13, 2006, 9:24 PM
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okay then... well, i can sure as fuck tell you that i didn't fucking mean getting fucked up the fucking arse, but i put bugger because i fucking felt like it.
I am actually originally from michigan, but moved here, and the speach patterns catch on pretty fucking fast.
-Magnus
p.s. fuck fuckity fuck fuck.
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sungam
Feb 13, 2006, 9:28 PM
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Oh yeah, almost forgot- when i'll be setting up my belay area, there wont be bolts or chains for miles and miles (probobly about 25miles) so, should i just pile in as much gear as i can?
Should i use 240cm and 30cm slings to equalise?
How far up untill i start looking for a belay point? (i'll be on 60m rope)
My partner (who always leads the multipitches) always seems to end up with these great belay points, can you tell if a belay point will be good from afar? or do you have to wait till your on the rock?
any help would be great.
thanks
-Magnus
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kimgraves
Feb 13, 2006, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: bugger: 1. British usage for a fellow, a chap. 2. Disparaging and offensive term for a despicable or contemptible person regarded or referred to as a sodomite . 3. A sodomite , especially the active-partner , the pedicator or insertor , as opposed to the passive-partner , the receiver or pedicant. See sodomite for synonyms. 4. To perform anal-intercourse ; to sodomize . See anal-copulation for synonyms. 5. Buggers! or Bugger me! a British exclamation of surprise. 6. To persons of British birth or background, a) a pejorative and insulting vernacular: You silly bugger! or: b) a colloquial but non-derogatory term: The little bugger . Etymology: From medieval Latin Bulgaris , Bulgars, who were regarded as a heretic people who, allegedly, practiced anal-intercourse .
1) But would I refer to my son-in-law (who's English) as a bugger? He has two kids with my daughter.
2) So George W. Bush could be a bugger even though he's not (as far as I know) a sodomite? Or do you have to be English and not just despicable?
3) So it's the passive partner who would exclaim "ah, bugger" as in the act of surprise in (5).
4) I knew this definition
5) see (3)
6) But all these sound like you're saying the person is cute and not despicable as in (2).
But my question has to do with usage. Are there times when you'd exclaim "Ah, bugger." where you wouldn't also say "Ah, fuck." Are the two synonyms are do they have different meanings. :roll:
Best, Kim
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pendereki
Feb 13, 2006, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: okay then... well, i can sure as f--- tell you that i didn't f---ing mean getting f--- up the f---ing arse, but i put bugger because i f---ing felt like it. I am actually originally from michigan, but moved here, and the speach patterns catch on pretty f---ing fast. -Magnus p.s. f--- f--- f--- f---.
This post show you have all the adaptability you need to multi-pitch, you will do fine!! :lol:
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kimgraves
Feb 13, 2006, 9:36 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: okay then... well, i can sure as f--- tell you that i didn't f---ing mean getting f--- up the f---ing arse, but i put bugger because i f---ing felt like it. I am actually originally from michigan, but moved here, and the speach patterns catch on pretty f---ing fast. -Magnus p.s. f--- f--- f--- f---. This post show you have all the adaptability you need to multi-pitch, you will do fine!! :lol:
Oh, yea, Have a buggering good time. Or should that be a fucking good time? I'm confused.
Best, Kim
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giza
Feb 13, 2006, 9:38 PM
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Well alright, to avoid getting buggered up there in the mountains on a multi-pitch one thing you should be dialed into is rope management. When bringing up the second from a hanging belay a good thing to do is to loop the rope over one of your legs. I'm a squirmy bastard and like to have both of my legs free so I usually loop the rope over my daisy or tie-in (rope from my harness clove hitched to anchor point). Assuming that you and your bugger...ahem, I mean buddy, are alternating leads the rope should be tangle free for the next pitch.
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sungam
Feb 13, 2006, 9:44 PM
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well, i think bugger is the same as fuck except slightly less heavy, and can therefore be said in front of ladies, kids.
-Magnus
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giza
Feb 13, 2006, 9:48 PM
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In reply to: should i just pile in as much gear as i can? Should i use 240cm and 30cm slings to equalise? How far up untill i start looking for a belay point? (i'll be on 60m rope) Can you tell if a belay point will be good from afar? or do you have to wait till your on the rock? -Magnus
It sounds like you're well on your way to getting buggered up there in the hills of Scotland. Buggery aside, if you seriously have these questions about leading you should probably second until you have this stuff figured out. Asking questions from a bunch of jokers sitting in front of their computers is not the best way to learn this stuff.
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wjca
Feb 13, 2006, 10:33 PM
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In reply to: bugger: 1. British usage for a fellow, a chap. 2. Disparaging and offensive term for a despicable or contemptible person regarded or referred to as a sodomite . 3. A sodomite , especially the active-partner , the pedicator or insertor , as opposed to the passive-partner , the receiver or pedicant. See sodomite for synonyms. 4. To perform anal-intercourse ; to sodomize . See anal-copulation for synonyms. 5. Buggers! or Bugger me! a British exclamation of surprise. 6. To persons of British birth or background, a) a pejorative and insulting vernacular: You silly bugger! or: b) a colloquial but non-derogatory term: The little bugger . Etymology: From medieval Latin Bulgaris , Bulgars, who were regarded as a heretic people who, allegedly, practiced anal-intercourse .
It seems like from some of the above definitions that if you want to avoid getting buggered while doing some miltipitch, you need to make damn sure you're actually the one doing the multipitching and not multicatching.
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pastprime
Feb 13, 2006, 11:50 PM
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I can't decide whether I'm glad I won't be there to see this, or sorry to miss it.
3 solid pieces for the anchor is standard. If you are sure you can equalize them without bolluxing anything up, go ahead and do it; but if not, just have all 3 pieces well fastened into some common point, and fasten yourselves into that.
Make absolutely sure both you and your partner are either on belay, or clipped into the anchor at every instant. Don't ever undo one before getting on the other.
Make absolutely sure the rope can never slide across any other nylon that needs to be load bearing, like slings or daisy or cordollette. It can cut them in an instant.
Better to stop early when you get to a reasonable belay spot, if you've not done this stuff alot, than to run out of rope in the middle of some blank area and be trying to down climb or rig a hanging belay when you've never seen one before. There is no solid answer to how to spot belay stances from below. More often than not, what looks like a good ledge is, but not always; and occasionally a good spot appears that you couldn't see from below. My rec. for your situation would be once you are much passed the halfway mark on the rope, would be to take any decent stance that shows up unless you are pretty darn sure there is something else coming up. It's also possible to have a good stance, but lousy placements for the pro. I'd not pass up anything good.
Pick a route well below your maximum level, to give more margin for error on your first few tries. And if your first try goes well, don't go thinking you've gotten it all figured out and get cocky, or I promise you, you will get schooled by the mountain gods, who don't like that sort of thing and are quite gleeful about putting upstarts in their place.
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heximp
Feb 14, 2006, 12:35 AM
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Avast ya' buggar! You scare me!
I would not do my first multi-pitch without a mentor, "especially on a new climb." You will be risking your life and your partner's life...
To do a multi-pitch you must first know the route EXTREMELY well before attempting the climb. "I usually study the route by binoculars and memorize the route's map." (BEWARE! Deaths happen from climbers going off route! BEWARE! People die from insufficient anchors because; they set up at the wrong location, did not have enough gear, and they lacked knowledge about direction of pull/equalizing and working with opposing pieces, etc.)
NOTE: If the location lacks bolts hangers, your chances of going off route are high.
The fact is there are many challenging climbs at every location. You do not need to perform a multi-pitch to discover your limits. I would rather you do a few multi-pitches with your mentor first before attempting this. Plus, when a climber injures/kills themselves, the location of their climb gets threatened with closure for public safety. If you do this, your risking yourself and all of us. Please don't until you complete your training.
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dutyje
Feb 14, 2006, 1:30 AM
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In reply to: you need to make damn sure you're actually the one doing the multipitching and not multicatching.
:lol:
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billcoe_
Feb 14, 2006, 5:20 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: you need to make damn sure you're actually the one doing the multipitching and not multicatching. :lol:
This is about to deginerate into a discussion on small belay stance "reach arounds."
-Real serious now-
My thoughts, be damn careful, what you don't know that you don't know will kill you real quick. Despite what everybody here might start advising, there are no shortcuts to learning, grasp all that you can as hard as you can as fast as you can or you will be buggered up.
Get a book, review this site, reflect on past climbs, and learn all you can about the planned climbs via reading and asking others who have done them.
good luck.
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mowz
Feb 14, 2006, 5:48 AM
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Getting a book is a good idea and the book to get is Freedom of the Hills.
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reno
Feb 14, 2006, 6:21 AM
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1. Second the comment about rope management. A cluster-bugger of ropes at the belay will slow you down quite a bit.
2. Anchors: The only 100% rule is that the anchor must not fail. I've been quite happy with one piece as an anchor (you've never seen a stopper in such a perfect position.) I've also been quite unhappy with six pieces as the anchor (you've never seen so many shitty cams, stoppers, hexes, Lowe Balls, and pitons.) Simpler is usually better, everything else being equal.
3. Learn to do other things whilst belaying... eat a snack, drink water, sort leftover gear, etc. When your second reaches the belay, she ought to be ready to lead the next pitch within a couple minutes. 10 minutes at each belay is too long... 2 minutes is better.
4. Plan ahead... know the route, know the descent, know the length of pitches, etc.
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davidji
Feb 14, 2006, 6:48 AM
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In reply to: Oh yeah, almost forgot- when i'll be setting up my belay area, there wont be bolts or chains for miles and miles (probobly about 25miles) so, should i just pile in as much gear as i can? Should i use 240cm and 30cm slings to equalise? How far up untill i start looking for a belay point? (i'll be on 60m rope) My partner (who always leads the multipitches) always seems to end up with these great belay points, can you tell if a belay point will be good from afar? or do you have to wait till your on the rock?
2. An anchor equalized with slings is the slow way, and very often the gumby way (there are probably times it's a good idea). I think that type of anchor is one of the biggest causes of beginner epics. Anchoring with the rope or with a cordalette are much faster. If you know how to build an anchor with a cordalette, I suggest taking two--one for the lower anchor, one for the higher one (you'll have a max of two anchors at a time). If you don't, I suggest preparing yourself to build cordalette or rope anchors before making the climbs.
3. You can go nearly 60m if you aren't anchoring with the rope, and you're not using up your pro too quickly (another common contributor to beginner epics). If you use some of the rope at each end to build an anchor, obviously you can't go as far.
4. Sometimes a good belay point is obvious (big ledge, solid tree). Sometimes the stuff that looked like it would be a bomber belay isn't (e.g. the features are crumbly & broken up when you reach them). Sometimes you just gotta make a hanging belay while you still have enough gear left. If you build a hanging belay, kneepads are your friend. They're not just for buggery...
You'll have to make the judgement call on whether you can do this stuff safely.
Climb safely & have fun.
David
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kricir
Feb 14, 2006, 7:15 AM
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You sound like you want to be able to move smoothly on long routes, this takes time, If you have the basic skills (sounds like you do) then the best way to learn multi pitching is to just go do it. I’ll give you a tip or two.
-starting out, It will be easier If you both have a daisy chain or like sling girth hitched on your harness with its own, exclusive locking carabiner at all times. This way you can both be tied in at all times even when switching rope ends, rapping, ect.
-Take a rope hook, or coil the rope over your leg, or over a sling, very carefully when belaying. Badly coiled and poorly managed ropes are the quickest way to ruin your climb, I have learned this lesson the hard way, several times over.
-Always take two ropes. The leader should always have both. (drag one, climb on one) Even if you route has a walk off, or close rap stations, an extra rope will give you more options if you have to bail. (If you have to bail half way up a lead, you can use you extra rope to rap down on single, solid pieces with out fear, because you will still be protected by the belay rope and the pieces you have put in.
- Have a good racking system, and do it the same way every time, period.
even the second should do this, making gear hand overs at belays easy and quick.
-Learn several different ways of equalizing an anchor. Belay either straight off the anchor, or off your harness and up through the anchor (second). Always belay the leader off your harness with the anchor as the first piece of pro.
- Always have one or two loops of cord (for prussic), or a mini ascender, or combo of both.
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bodyboarder
Feb 14, 2006, 7:32 AM
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I thought that post was for me kricir..... but now you just go galavnting aroud town pressing ctrl c and then ctrl v like it doesn't even matter....BUT IT DOES matter... oh how i chrrished that post and now it's.....it's......tainted
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bodyboarder
Feb 14, 2006, 7:35 AM
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I thought that post was for me kricir..... but now you just go galavnting aroud town pressing ctrl c and then ctrl v like it doesn't even matter....BUT IT DOES matter... oh how i chrrished that post and now it's.....it's......tainted
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8flood8
Feb 14, 2006, 8:33 AM
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go to the library and look at john long's book climbing anchors and the second one about climbing anchors ... i think it's "more climbing anchors"
the point being. if you don't know what is bad. you might not have an anchor that holds.
you said you know how to equalize.. maybe you should learn how to "escape the belay"
the falcon guide on "self rescue" never leaves my pack.
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sungam
Feb 14, 2006, 9:21 PM
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Thanks for all the info guys, but plz note, this is not my first multi pitch, just my first one without my mentor partner.
:)
-Magnus
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dingus
Feb 14, 2006, 9:40 PM
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Don't get on a multipitch route unless you believe you can lead ALL the pitches.
Take 100% responsibility for the safety of yourself and your partner. Expect the same from her. Make sure she understands that.
DMT
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j_ung
Feb 14, 2006, 9:58 PM
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I recently added "bloody hell" to my lexicon and have found that it's really very fun to say. I do believe I'll pepper my speech with a few "buggers," too. Thanks, Magnus! It's fun to cuss in British.
:)
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kricir
Feb 14, 2006, 10:13 PM
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bodyboarder said
In reply to: I thought that post was for me kricir..... but now you just go galavnting aroud town pressing ctrl c and then ctrl v like it doesn't even matter....BUT IT DOES matter... oh how i chrrished that post and now it's.....it's......tainted
HAHAH! I thought that would happen! oh well, I sorry, and by the way, It was for you, I copied it into this thread, not the other way around!
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slavetogravity
Feb 14, 2006, 11:47 PM
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In reply to: -Take a rope hook, or coil the rope over your leg, or over a sling, very carefully when belaying. Badly coiled and poorly managed ropes are the quickest way to ruin your climb, I have learned this lesson the hard way, several times over. .
To elaberate on this, it's no joke that nothing will slow you down faster then poor rope management.
When stacking the rope over your legs be sure to stack it, in such a manner, that each subsequent coil is smaller than the last. This will ensure that the rope will be properly stacked and will pay out nicely while belaying.
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bodyboarder
Feb 15, 2006, 12:52 AM
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In reply to: bodyboarder said In reply to: I thought that post was for me kricir..... but now you just go galavnting aroud town pressing ctrl c and then ctrl v like it doesn't even matter....BUT IT DOES matter... oh how i chrrished that post and now it's.....it's......tainted HAHAH! I thought that would happen! oh well, I sorry, and by the way, It was for you, I copied it into this thread, not the other way around!
well as long as it was originally for me....
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sungam
Feb 15, 2006, 9:25 PM
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Damn, all this buildup for nothing. My partner's parents flipped when he even mentioned the word "multipitch" anywhere near the winter season.
:cry:
-Magnus
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dominic7
Feb 15, 2006, 9:49 PM
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Ah bugger!
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kimgraves
Feb 16, 2006, 1:26 AM
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Hi,
Let me try to give your question a serious answer.
Be advise that you will "bugger up" your first trad climbs.
The reason is that the whole art of placing protection and creating the safety system is a completely different skill set than climbing the bloody rock. Just because you can back step/layback/dyno with the best of them and then do 12 one-arm pull ups doesn't mean you know shit about placing pro and creating the system. No one can do it the first time; or the second; or the third; or the forth.
So how do you keep from killing yourself?
The first rule is that there is NO climb that is to easy to start on.
If you're a 5.12 lead in the gym start on 5.2 (or whatever the fuck the Scottish equivalent is). Don't start on a 5.6 - that's too hard. Start on a 5.2. You should be able to walk up the climb with both hands tied behind your back. This is not about climbing, it's about learning trad.
Second rule: work up the grades. After you do a 5.2, do a 5.3. Don't skip to 5.12 or even a 5.6. The object is to learn what you need to learn without killing yourself.
Learning to place pro and be safe IS fun even at the low grades. It's very interesting with so many things to keep in mind. And then you have to actually climb the bloody thing.
Best, Kim
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letolives
Feb 16, 2006, 1:46 AM
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You guys are sick and this post is X rated and I love it. Keep it coming cuz i'm almost there too.
Bugger, fuck, shit, fuck shit bugger me YEA!
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grk10vq
Feb 16, 2006, 2:52 AM
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in matters such as two men 'buggering up' a multipitch. this advice is crucial:
In reply to: Make absolutely sure both you and your partner are either on belay, or clipped into the anchor at every instant. Don't ever undo one before getting on the other. And if your first try goes well, don't go thinking you've gotten it all figured out and get cocky, or I promise you, you will get schooled by the mountain gods, who don't like that sort of thing.
you may want a lubricant.
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sungam
Feb 16, 2006, 7:30 PM
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Ah bugger indeed, and now my ice buddy is busy as well, thats two climbing trips in one week, both of which fell through.
this is gunna be a great mid term break...
:?
-Magnus
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