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iamcolinslack
Mar 18, 2006, 5:37 PM
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In reply to: Remember being a climber is a lifestyle not a freaking sport! Very Well Said my friend.
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petsfed
Mar 18, 2006, 7:16 PM
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Spent last week in the creek. Having not led in about 6 months, it kinda sucked, but only because I wasn't good enough. A harness or a walkie-talkie dissappearing there is out-and-out theft. The average user in Indian Creek is NOT joe blow. Those who go through that canyon without climbing are going to Canyonlands and aren't stopping. Seriously, IC doesn't draw the tourists like Wall Street, Arches, or Canyonlands itself does. Its a climber haven, pure and simple. To the layman, it just looks like a canyon. Whoopy. So if gear dissappears somewhere, its because some other climber picked it up. Failure to leave a note is being a dick. I made it a point to #1 avoid Supercrack Buttress, and #2 to go somewhere I hadn't been before. I lacked the gear to protect the uber-classics (50-60' routes I could do, not 100' like Supercrack or Incredible Hand Crack, or Generic), so I went exploring. There really is so much more than just Supercrack, so much better, so much less crowded, if the people would just go. Seriously, Technicolor Wall has just as long an approach, same quality of routes, plus an easily toproped 5.12, why aren't people going there? Why is Scarface busy but the Dissapointment Cliffs deserted? Likewise, why are people lining up to do Castleton while some routes in the Bridger Jacks see two or three ascents in a year? "Classic" just means old, I've found, but "good" means good
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estherator
Mar 18, 2006, 8:43 PM
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I was down at the Creek this fall. When I ran out of money and had to move to town to work, I had to leave my camper behind. (It's a two person job to move it. Due to some auto issues, I wasn't able to pick it up until a few weeks ago. When I did, the door had been removed, my cooler was broken, the place was trashed, and there were a couple of new tears in the canvas, as well as a note that someone thought was funny, thanking me for the use of my camper for their "satanic orgy." I might have found it humorous myself, if they hadn't trashed my home. It's really disappointing to hear that this is not a lone incident in the Creek, it sounds as though it's becoming more of a rule...
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weschrist
Mar 18, 2006, 8:51 PM
Post #29 of 57
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In reply to: In reply to: Remember being a climber is a lifestyle not a freaking sport! Very Well Said my friend. ya'll are swimmin in d'Nile. It stopped being a lifestyle and became a sport/recreational activity when climbers stopped driving old beat up pickup trucks and living off refried beans and cheap beer, and started showing up at the crags in Audi's by the dozens. I don't like the change, but it is real none the less. You can hold onto your idealistic fallacies if you want or you can accept the reality and make a positive contribution by dealing with it accordingly. http://www.wenani.com/images/common/2cent.jpg
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organic
Mar 18, 2006, 10:21 PM
Post #30 of 57
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Remember being a climber is a lifestyle not a freaking sport! Very Well Said my friend. ya'll are swimmin in d'Nile. It stopped being a lifestyle and became a sport/recreational activity when climbers stopped driving old beat up pickup trucks and living off refried beans and cheap beer, and started showing up at the crags in Audi's by the dozens. I don't like the change, but it is real none the less. You can hold onto your idealistic fallacies if you want or you can accept the reality and make a positive contribution by dealing with it accordingly. http://www.wenani.com/images/common/2cent.jpg Right on, I love how everyone is playing the holier than thou role. Climbers are human beings and human beings are greedy and steal, deal with it. Someone recently posted how they lost their climbing shoes at a gas station, if you did that would you blame the world? Sack it up, your buddy made a mistake stop blaming everyone else for not making up for your buddies mistake. Shit happens in life deal with it. Do you want some cheese with that whine? I feel bad about the camper though and that is strange to see occur in any area. holdplease2: not every climber posts online. And what am I supposed to do hold this guys hand and tell him everything is going to be ok?
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shanz
Mar 18, 2006, 10:45 PM
Post #31 of 57
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Registered: May 18, 2004
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Remember being a climber is a lifestyle not a freaking sport! Very Well Said my friend. ya'll are swimmin in d'Nile. It stopped being a lifestyle and became a sport/recreational activity when climbers stopped driving old beat up pickup trucks and living off refried beans and cheap beer, and started showing up at the crags in Audi's by the dozens. I don't like the change, but it is real none the less. You can hold onto your idealistic fallacies if you want or you can accept the reality and make a positive contribution by dealing with it accordingly. http://www.wenani.com/images/common/2cent.jpg what does eating refried beans and drinking beer and driving beat up pick ups have to do with climbing being a sport or a lifestyle - i believe you missed my point, point is most every climber i know lives for climbing loves to climb, which is a lifestyle and in so doing most climbers i know care what happens to their climbing areas. Not littering and having respect for other peoples gear is a big part of that, but hey what do i know - my pack at the end of the day tends to have trash and cig butts in it , and thats less that stays near the climbs. As far as loosing gear i blame no one but me
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murf
Mar 20, 2006, 4:23 PM
Post #32 of 57
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Registered: Mar 15, 2002
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In reply to: I was down at the Creek this fall. When I ran out of money and had to move to town to work, I had to leave my camper behind. (It's a two person job to move it. Due to some auto issues, I wasn't able to pick it up until a few weeks ago. When I did, the door had been removed, my cooler was broken, the place was trashed, and there were a couple of new tears in the canvas, as well as a note that someone thought was funny, thanking me for the use of my camper for their "satanic orgy." I might have found it humorous myself, if they hadn't trashed my home. It's really disappointing to hear that this is not a lone incident in the Creek, it sounds as though it's becoming more of a rule... We saw your camper in early Feb. Quite frankly, we couldn't figure out WTF it was doing there. High winds had blown through, and scattered much of the material. What about the crash pad underneath? Was it stolen after 2 mos? Did you leave a note with your hard luck story, explaining what was up? Bridger Jack road is also used by ATV's and mountain bikers. After not being touched by the owner for as long as it has, I'm surprised it wasn't torched. Murf
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reg
Mar 20, 2006, 4:44 PM
Post #33 of 57
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In reply to: In reply to: [I hardly think losing a harness can be called stealing. As for the missing radio, seems kind of rediculous that someone would steal it and leave the batteries please tell me how that makes any sense. Learn how to make a webbing harness and sack it up. How about you go f--- yourself? You missed the point entirely. Must ahve never spent anytime in the creek...or anywhere like it. Jack ass. josh Whoa nelly! - get ah grip there josh - it ain't worth it brother - he's had a point to make.
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iceisnice
Mar 20, 2006, 4:53 PM
Post #34 of 57
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i've only read the op's post........from what i've seen the title should be changed to "A typical, typical day at the Creek". its a damn scene there. have one more reason now not to go again......
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gunksgoer
Mar 20, 2006, 5:01 PM
Post #35 of 57
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Registered: Sep 27, 2004
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In reply to: In reply to: You should be happy that someone picked up the harness. Most abandoned gear is just left to rot by most people. You even said it yourself: In reply to: Pick up after yourself, nobody likes seeing trash at their crags. Quit whining. Suck it up. That harness was trash, just like the candy wrapper and tape wad. He left it there and if anything he should be penalized for littering. A non climber would see it as trash just like you would see a beer can as trash. If for some reason your partner did get his harness back that would be a stroke of luck. It's the people like you that make the situation sad. A functional harness left at the base of a climb is hardly a cig butt left on the ground or a wad of tape stuffed in a crack. My friend receiving his harness back from another person that cared enough about somone other than themself would hardly be a stroke of luck but rather an act of kindness and caring. Ok, perhaps I should have put things differently. I definatly understand your dismay but I think you are also failing to see another point. Yes it is sad that some climbing areas are being sort of over run, and that the sense of community seems to be deminishing. BUT you also have to look at reality in the case of the harness. Leaving a harness somewhere doesnt help the access situation to any area. As the community increases everyone needs to do their part to keep it a clean one. If another climber decides to do a favor for a stranger kudos to them. My response comes mostly from the perspective that leaving that harness somewhere is just as bad as someone not picking it up, if not worse. Yes you have the right to be bummed that you lost it and that a fellow climber didnt come through for you, but you were at wrong too. I am not trying to be the death of climbing, merely trying to spread consciousness. A year or so ago at the gunks I found a single left climbing shoe on the side of the carriage road. It was clear that it had been there for at least a couple days. At first I was kinda disapointed, because even if you leave something by mistake it is still litter, any its worst if alot of hikers go by like they do at the gunks. Id bet that over 1500 people had walked by it. They see it as nothing more than litter and it can't improve their perception of the climbing community. I picked it up anyway and left it on the message board along with a note. If I lived closer, I would have brought it home and left my number on the board for someone to pick it up. Calling me trash is a bit of a low blow. I am simply being practical and looking from the perspective of say, the (insert group here, eg land manager) thats now putting restrictions on (insert major climbing area here, eg Indian Creek). If everyone does their part the climbing community can continue to exist and grow, but leaving things (especially cars) around are steps backwards. Yes you might not be able to move the camper for 2 months, but you must realize that having it there hurts the whole community. Their are small places around here that have been closed for reasons FAR smaller than harnesses left behind. I think im going to make myself a sandwich now and go bouldering.
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weschrist
Mar 20, 2006, 5:08 PM
Post #36 of 57
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In reply to: what does eating refried beans and drinking beer and driving beat up pick ups have to do with climbing being a sport or a lifestyle - i believe you missed my point, point is most every climber i know lives for climbing loves to climb, which is a lifestyle and in so doing most climbers i know care what happens to their climbing areas. Not littering and having respect for other peoples gear is a big part of that, but hey what do i know - my pack at the end of the day tends to have trash and cig butts in it , and thats less that stays near the climbs. As far as loosing gear i blame no one but me The act of climbing rocks does not make it a lifestyle. Back in the day (according to those who were there) climbers essentially gave everything they had just to climb. They weren't dropping $30,000+ on sports cars, staying in condos, or listening to their ipods while climbing. They were driving beaters and eating beans to stretch their road trip out as long as they could. When people live like this they tend to respect others who do the same. Like it or not, climbing is no longer a lifestyle, it is a sport and/or an accessory activity for the masses of wannabe extreme athletes. Jesus, just look around at the crag next time you are out... count the cell phones, look at the fashion, count the $$$ in the parking lot. At the end of the day 80-90% of the people either go back to a nice house, hotel, or if they are "hard core" their heated camper. Times have changed. Whether you accept it or not is your own problem. btw, I appreciate you picking up trash, respecting others gear, etc and I am not intending disrespect... just stating the reality of the situation. You are obviously among the minority, as evidenced by the trash left behind by others that you pick up. btw, anyone still curious why some of the crags are kept "secret?"
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sidepull
Mar 20, 2006, 5:14 PM
Post #37 of 57
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Am I the only one that thinks both sides of this argument are legitimate? I feel bad for the sense of lost community but the friend shouldn't have left his harness. Think about the guy picking it up - maybe he thought, hey, this looks like it's been here awhile, if the owner is from SLC or Colorado the drive back here to find the harness is more expensive than the cost of the harness so I'll just grab it. We don't have to assume the guy is thief (it is a bit harder to make this assumption with the radio story). In similar form, the owner of the shoe left at the gunks probably realized the shoe was lost but that the cost to go back and find the shoe wasn't worth it. In contrast, I have a friend who spends every weekend in Moab either at the creek climbing or mountain biking. On one trip, his crew starting climbing with another group. They had a great time and really enjoyed the company. That night, my friend left the creek and drove back to SLC. While unpacking he realized that he had several cams that were not his. He immediately got back in his car and drove down to the creek and went through the camps looking for the guys. In the end he returned the gear. I was pretty blown away - I'm not sure I would have done the same thing. I think the difference is that my friend is there all the time and making friends with people and going out of his way to be honest and fair, for him, fit with the ethos of his pursuit. I think that's the key - does stealing, vandalism, loud camping, letting your dog sh*t on people's ropes, etc., fit with the ethos of your pursuit? I think we all seek some form of alignment. Obviously things are a bit misaligned . . .
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murf
Mar 20, 2006, 5:35 PM
Post #38 of 57
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In reply to: In reply to: what does eating refried beans and drinking beer and driving beat up pick ups have to do with climbing being a sport or a lifestyle - i believe you missed my point, point is most every climber i know lives for climbing loves to climb, which is a lifestyle and in so doing most climbers i know care what happens to their climbing areas. Not littering and having respect for other peoples gear is a big part of that, but hey what do i know - my pack at the end of the day tends to have trash and cig butts in it , and thats less that stays near the climbs. As far as loosing gear i blame no one but me The act of climbing rocks does not make it a lifestyle. Back in the day (according to those who were there) climbers essentially gave everything they had just to climb. They weren't dropping $30,000+ on sports cars, staying in condos, or listening to their ipods while climbing. They were driving beaters and eating beans to stretch their road trip out as long as they could. When people live like this they tend to respect others who do the same. Living in a beater eating spam doesn't make you a better person, more honest, more environmentally concious, good looking, or worthy of respect. You want to know who I respect? Those folks who live their life the way they want and don't infringe on anyone else. That includes the weekend climber who holds down his full time job, cares for his family, wears what he feels comfortable in ( Prana or Carhartt ), and climbs to the best of his ability. If staying in a condo makes it easier for you to bring your wife and kids, so be it. The person who trashes a crag, drives like an idiot, yaks on his cell phone at the top of his voice? He's doing that if he's a climber, a surfer, ATVer, whatever-er. It's because he's an asshole, all dirtbaggery aside. I like to climb around folks who are cool. What they are driving doesn't tend to impact my decision. IC suffers from overcrowding, that's painfully obvious. It's not the first nor the last crag to go through this type of explosive growth. How many of you old hands shat in a wag-bag the last time you were there? Until you pack out all of your crap, don't complain. Murf
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rockrat_co
Mar 20, 2006, 6:01 PM
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That is indeed very cery disapointing. I guess in a perfect world, none of this would happen, im more upset about the gear being taken then the number of people. Good locations are bound to receive more and more traffic, sadly. I hope this doesnt become a common occurance. -rockrat_co-
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sidepull
Mar 20, 2006, 6:30 PM
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In reply to: That is indeed very cery disapointing. what?
In reply to: Good locations are bound to receive more and more traffic, sadly. I hope this doesnt become a common occurance. i like the color green - it's getting more red all the time. please - for the sake of discussion, be coherent.
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weschrist
Mar 20, 2006, 7:07 PM
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In reply to: Living in a beater eating spam doesn't make you a better person, more honest, more environmentally concious, good looking, or worthy of respect. I never said it did. Look, you can twist it any way you like but the fact is the more people that come to the crags the more this shit will happen. When it was the hard few it was less likely to happen. I'm not saying they were better people, but when the community is small and everyone knows everyone it is a much less common occurance.
In reply to: You want to know who I respect? No, I couldn't care less who you respect. This is about the reality of the situation. More people = more shit to deal with. Sidepull expressed what I was trying to say pretty well. If the people at the crags are coming from 6 hours away ($60+ round trip) and it is 1 of 5 crags they will zip to in their BMW's that month, they aren't going to worry too much about someone's $60 harness. In contrast, someone like Sidepull's friend, who sounds very motivated and passionate about climbing at IC, will go out of his way to respect other people's gear and climbing experience. I love to see the latter, but with the huge explosion in people at the crags they are becoming pretty rare. edit: one man's trash is another man's harness. unless the harness has your phone number or address on it, how do you expect anyone to return it anyway?
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sesser125
Mar 20, 2006, 7:13 PM
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Is this true about paying at the Creek? How much and who is getting the money?
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murf
Mar 20, 2006, 7:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Living in a beater eating spam doesn't make you a better person, more honest, more environmentally concious, good looking, or worthy of respect. I never said it did. No, but you implied it pretty strongly.
In reply to: In reply to: You want to know who I respect? No, I couldn't care less who you respect. I suspect I wouldn't want to climb around you.
In reply to: This is about the reality of the situation. More people = more s--- to deal with. Your version of reality that is. However, I don't think anyone can dispute the "More people = more shit to deal with" literally and figuratively. Did you bring your wag-bag?
In reply to: If the people at the crags are coming from 6 hours away ($60+ round trip) and it is 1 of 5 crags they will zip to in their BMW's that month, they aren't going to worry too much about someone's $60 harness. In contrast, someone like Sidepull's friend, who sounds very motivated and passionate about climbing at IC, will go out of his way to respect other people's gear and climbing experience. My experience of folks who drive 6 hours to climb *and* go to 5 crags a month has been pretty good. In fact, I think they are probably passionately motivated. And with experience at that many crags, they are probably well rounded climbers. As an aside, if I was to do that much driving, I would prefer to do it in a BMW. You insist once again to attempt to throw aspersions on folks that support themselves well ( or just have bank ). Stick with the "more people = more problems" schtick, its easier to defend and it probably has some basis in fact. Murf
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paganmonkeyboy
Mar 20, 2006, 7:23 PM
Post #44 of 57
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how long until people start chipping holds in the sandstone ? if i pay my money to climb, i can do whatever i damn well please, right ??? ... (Note - I am JOKING here to make a point...don't make me come out there with a hammer and a rack of 4 inch bongs...)
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duppyc
Mar 20, 2006, 7:58 PM
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A camper at a parking lot for 2 months...I'd consider it lucky if all that happened was a satanic orgy. In fact, I'd be thankful it was still there upon my return. A ditched camper is about equal to some tape in the crack, only a little harder to remove. And, while I'm at it, I think the OP is overreacting a little in regards to the harness. Your friend left it behind with no means of identification at a busy, well-traveled, tourist friendly(granted, climbing tourists) parking lot, if you did a controlled experiment with the same setup, I'd reckon 9/10 times the harness comes up missing. I'm not telling you two to suck it up or anything, just being realistic.
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weschrist
Mar 20, 2006, 8:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Living in a beater eating spam doesn't make you a better person, more honest, more environmentally concious, good looking, or worthy of respect. I never said it did. No, but you implied it pretty strongly. I didn't imply that at all, you assumed it. I can understand you confusing my assertion that smaller communities = less theft with honesty, etc... however, I never meant to imply "honesty" had anything to do with it. But to throw "more environmentally concious, good looking, or worthy of respect" puts the ass in your assumption.
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: You want to know who I respect? No, I couldn't care less who you respect. I suspect I wouldn't want to climb around you. don't knock it until you've tried it. I'm one of the coolest people I know.
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microfracture
Mar 20, 2006, 8:34 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I suspect I wouldn't want to climb around you. don't knock it until you've tried it. I'm one of the coolest people I know. Try it, and you'll likely conclude that he's making a false assertion.
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lemon_boy
Mar 20, 2006, 9:03 PM
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esther, first of all, let me say that i am totally not trying to pick on you, and that i think that what happened to your camper is a total bummer. however, it brings up something that has really bothered me the last couple of years. i know of several people who have parked campers out at bridger jack for an entire season, despite climbing there only a couple weekends. this is total horse$h!t. camping is at a premium at bridger jacks, and a camper just sitting there implies that the camp site is being used (when it is not). this is pretty inconsiderate to those people who get there at 2am on a friday night, and find that there aren't any legit campsites available. this leads to people pulling off the road into an area that might "resemble" a possible camp spot, which keeps wrecking the place just a little bit more. what is the point in having a camper out there when you can live in moab? if you were in moab for that length of time, can you REALLY justify not removing your camper? there are a lot of really good folks in moab who would have gladly helped you, even if it did cost you a pint or two at their favorite watering hole. all of this being said, i still think that what happened to your camper was really lame. i don't think that this kind of activity is localized to the creek, but rather an example of popular climbing areas in general. i think that it is sad that people idolize tim o'neil, and how he throws the huge indian creek parties complete with techno thumping into the night. kind of ironic the next day when they complain about how crowded the creek is, how the BLM is cracking down, how Heidi Redd is cracking down. you can't have it both ways. the creek is dead.
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weschrist
Mar 20, 2006, 9:38 PM
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I'm going to invite Timmy and his posse to Crag X. Good times for all!
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golsen
Mar 20, 2006, 9:43 PM
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Anyone leaving a camper there, unattended for months, deserves what they get. What they really deserve is a bill from the appropriate landowner to remove said camper. Leave your harness in the parking lot and remember the next day? Whose fault is that! It is pretty hard for me to feel sorry about either of these situations since some asswipe stole my pack from my USFS CG last fall near Leavenworth, WA. Thats right, thieves walked up and stole it while I was asleep less than 6 feet away. I screwed up and did not lock it up. I dont need any cheese with my whine. Sack up and take some responsibility for your own actions before you whine about what is right and wrong...
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