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ridgeclimber
Mar 20, 2006, 10:33 PM
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I've been reading lately about various instances of catastrophic anchor failure (case in point, the two poor guys at Tahquitz). Back when I was a gumby, I always used to blindly trust all my anchors (the "oh come on this isn't going to blow) mentality. But I guess the reality is that sometimes anchors do fail. The breaking strength on most cams is around 15kN (about 3,370 lbs). Can a FF2 fall generate this much force? It would depend, but I'd venture a guess that it could. Maybe I'm wrong. The point is, sometimes you just don't know. Some people have learned the hard way. I'll continue to trust good anchors, albiet with a grain of salt, but some of the stories I hear scare the sh!t out of me. Anyone else feel this way?
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overlord
Mar 20, 2006, 10:46 PM
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the point is that a 15kn force will break your spine.
and if the placement is less-than-optimal the failure force is much less than that. thats why you place more than one point of protection. even sport anchors, which are solid bolts always come in pairs.
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dingus
Mar 20, 2006, 10:54 PM
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In reply to: I'll continue to trust good anchors, albiet with a grain of salt, but some of the stories I hear scare the sh!t out of me. Anyone else feel this way?
If we only knew then what we know now? A LOT of us would never have taken up the sport to begin with... coulda never got past the fear.
Luckily for me I learned a lot of the basics before I learned to fear.
There's a million ways to die climbing. One of the hardest things to do in our sport is tote all that knowledge up each route we do. The harder or scarier or more dangerous the climb, the heavier the load we tote.
Whereas, back in the day, a rope and a rack and the shirts on our backs often sufficed.
Yes, anchors fail, even those placed by experienced climbers operating well below their limits.
But the whole sport is properly the realm of lunatics frankly. We only kid ourselves with gyms, SAR, and evenly spaced bolts... tisn't safe at all and responsible folk would do well to engage in less risky activities.
DMT
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ridgeclimber
Mar 21, 2006, 12:28 AM
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I hear you. But I don't consider myself a lunatic. I cling on, perhaps in vain, to the notion that this sport can be done safely. Sometimes I have my doubts. But I think it can be done.
You're right- sometimes even experienced people die from anchor failure. Is catastrophic anchor failure a freak thing? I like to think it is. Maybe it's not. But you can die sitting at home, in a car accident, riding your bike.
Food for thought, I guess.
P.S. Overlord: will that much force really break your spine? Spread out over a harness? I'm not a physics person, but I do know that just by hangdogging, you generate about 3kN. I'm not sure a 15kN fall will break your back with a dynamic rope, plus the fact that your body is dynamic in itself and will absorb some impact. But I'm not sure on that one.
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sbaclimber
Mar 21, 2006, 12:37 AM
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In reply to: I'm not a physics person, but I do know that just by hangdogging, you generate about 3kN. |
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ridgeclimber
Mar 21, 2006, 12:46 AM
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Well sort of. Because of the stretch in the rope it makes it dynamic. But I didn't make up the figures, I got them from the American Alpine Club newsletter. But that was not my main point when I was talking about cam strength, just a comparison.
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healyje
Mar 21, 2006, 1:07 AM
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In reply to: I cling on, perhaps in vain, to the notion that this sport can be done safely. Sometimes I have my doubts. But I think it can be done.
I'm with Dingus on this one and think the above attitude can sometimes actually even be a bad one to have as it can lead one to a dangerously casual approach to aspects of climbing. Climbing is dangerous. At it's heart it isn't about eliminating risks - it's about [deliberately] creating risks by leaving the ground and then setting out to minimize them with experience, skill, and [calculated] daring. I never approach climbing as something that can be done "safely". From the time I leave my car until I'm back in it I assume I'm in danger at all times and actively compensate for it every step of the way.
Edit: Oh, and dogging on trad gear without rechecking it all the time would qualify as one of the "casual" approaches that can do some real damnage.
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ridgeclimber
Mar 21, 2006, 1:11 AM
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I agree, and I don't think we're completely at odds on this one. I didn't say climbing was about being safe; I don't think it is. But I do think the risks we intentionally create can be reduced enough to make it somewhat safe.
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billcoe_
Mar 21, 2006, 1:31 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I cling on, perhaps in vain, to the notion that this sport can be done safely. Sometimes I have my doubts. But I think it can be done. I'm with Dingus on this one and think the above attitude can sometimes actually even be a bad one to have as it can lead one to a dangerously casual approach to aspects of climbing. Climbing is dangerous. At it's heart it isn't about eliminating risks - it's about [deliberately] creating risks by leaving the ground and then setting out to minimize them with experience, skill, and [calculated] daring. I never approach climbing as something that can be done "safely". From the time I leave my car until I'm back in it I assume I'm in danger at all times and actively compensate for it every step of the way. Edit: Oh, and dogging on trad gear without rechecking all the time it would qualify as one of the "casual" approaches that can do some real damnage.
Well spoken Joseph. Where I run out and sometimes practice after work, I see casual behavior, usually involving people lallygagging at the top of the cliff in prep for rappelling to the bottom to start climbing, which occasionally kills and injures both Noobs and inexperienced climbers. The surprising count was 10 last year at an area not heavily used but primarily for toproping.
1-Opps, reaching for the anchors slipped on the mud and fell to the bottom.
2-Opps, slipped on the mud and fell to the bottom going for the anchors.
3-Opps, slipped on the mud and fell to the bottom.
4-Opps, dog barked at me, surprised me, then I slipped on the mud and fell to the bottom.
5-Opps, slipped on the mud and fell to the bottom.
6-Opps, set up a toprope to practice jugging and my belayer dropped me.
7-Opps, slipped on the mud and fell to the bottom.
8- Opps, trying to watch some climbers, slipped on the mud and fell to the bottom.
9-Opps, slipped on the mud and fell to the bottom.
10-Opps, slipped on the mud and fell to the bottom.
100 percent operator error in these cases. It's both unbelievable and unbelievably easily stupidly avoidable by meerly staying tied in when next to the clifftop.
What I find really amazing is how many people blame the external factor and not themself. As in, "opps, my piece pulled when I fell, there was nothing I could do", when in fact downclimbing, or putting in a backup piece or 3 were viable options and not thought of at all!
That's what I think anyway standing back looking on in slack-jawed wonderment.
BTW, It's a cold day in hell that I think I'm on an inadaquate anchor, but it's happened a few rare times when getting out into the wild hinterlands on occasion.
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ridgeclimber
Mar 21, 2006, 1:36 AM
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Haha. Well said. But, surely you agree, there is such a thing as objective danger? In this case, anchor failure?
Sure you always have some idiot kill himself because he wasn't using common sense, but then sometimes you have an experienced climber who rips gear and decks.
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dynorat
Mar 21, 2006, 1:51 AM
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RidgeClimber have you been climbing in Mexico recently???
Jason
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sirlancelot
Mar 21, 2006, 2:01 AM
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Its the danger and the fear that keep me climbing.
You see the move, and know that it within your ability level. However,
your last piece of pro is far below your feet, and you start to feel the fear. A fall on the suspect piece of pro could be bad... so do you go for it or not? Conquering your own fear and emotions is the reason I climb. There are many times I could have died/injured myself from my own poor judgement. There are also times a rock missed my head by only a foot when I was sitting at the base of the climb. There are a millions ways to die rock climbing, so either love it or leave it.
LL
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dynorat
Mar 21, 2006, 2:02 AM
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I think the question ridgeclimber is asking is valid. Yes Climbing is dangerous and we all know that but does that also mean that we should not endeavor to increase our odds of survival?
I mean if you want to climb on iron stove leg pitons and 1/4 inch bolts that is your prerogative but don't expect the rest of the climbing community to be content with the mediocrity of those technologies now that we have seen people die from their use. If you are looking for the headgame just cut the rope and go, otherwise call protection what it is and strive for the best. Evolution will happen its just a matter of how much people will complain about it.
Cheers,
Jason
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ridgeclimber
Mar 21, 2006, 2:13 AM
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Dynorat: No I have not recently been climbing in mexico. I'd love to get down to EL potero some day, though.
And yes, that is basically my point. Climbing is inherently dangerous, but that doesn't mean it should be all risk. I don't climb for the risk. If I wanted that I could do cave diving, BASE jumping, russian roulette, etc. There are so many other reasons why I climb. Some risk, as long as it is not extreme, makes things interesting. But there are different types of risk. Sometimes I like running it out a bit if I know that a fall can be bad but I know that it's not going to kill me. I might intentionally put myself at risk for injury (we always do when we climb), but I will not climb when a mistake will mean certain death. Part of why we continually develop better techniques and better gear is because we want the risk to be more controlled--meaning, I want to be the one who chooses to make a particular situation dangerous, not because my anchor is crap.
But this is off-topic. Perhaps we could discuss a little more about breaking strengths, etc.?
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styndall
Mar 21, 2006, 2:21 AM
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In reply to: 6-Opps, set up a toprope to practice jugging and my belayer dropped me.
I totally don't understand how a top-rope or a belayer would help with jugging. Was the guy jugging a fixed line backed up by a top-rope belay? Or was somebody actually weird enough to set up a normal top rope, have a belayer lock off one side, and then jug the other?
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healyje
Mar 21, 2006, 2:27 AM
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In reply to: I think the question ridgeclimber is asking is valid. Yes Climbing is dangerous and we all know that but does that also mean that we should not endeavor to increase our odds of survival? I mean if you want to climb on iron stove leg pitons and 1/4 inch bolts that is your prerogative but don't expect the rest of the climbing community to be content with the mediocrity of those technologies now that we have seen people die from their use. If you are looking for the headgame just cut the rope and go, otherwise call protection what it is and strive for the best. Evolution will happen its just a matter of how much people will complain about it.
Depends on your idea of "evolution". If by evolution you mean the elimination of risk (grid bolting), and there is no shortage of pressure these days from folks who simply prefer their gym climbing outdoors, but I consider that the same sort of evolution as obesity. I'm all for increasing my odds by increasing my skills, equipment, and technique, but not at all by beating the rock into submission. But as you say, once the chorus of complaint is sufficiently loud...
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epic_ed
Mar 21, 2006, 2:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: 6-Opps, set up a toprope to practice jugging and my belayer dropped me. I totally don't understand how a top-rope or a belayer would help with jugging. Was the guy jugging a fixed line backed up by a top-rope belay? Or was somebody actually weird enough to set up a normal top rope, have a belayer lock off one side, and then jug the other?
Yeah, they didn't understand, either.
Damn, Bill -- you climb in an area where no one is capable of learning from the mistakes of others? Seems it would be clear you need to stay out of the fucking mud at the top of your crag. Bunch of damn lemmings...
Ed
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madhardclimber
Mar 21, 2006, 2:29 AM
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Hmm anchors breaking yea I'm sure it does happens once in a while. In my experience though most accidents occur do to climber error Aka experienced climbers forgetting to finish tying the figure 8 or the noob setting up an anchor wrong. I'm not saying anchor failure doesn't happen because it does happen it just seems to be a minority compared to climber error in my experience. We should all check and double check our knots harnesses anchors gear etc. then triple check it if need be ( i know id rather have my belayer harassing me about whether my knot is tied or not then forget to finish tying in).
As for a 15 kn fall breaking your back it could happen though in most cases its rare do to the 15kn force being being spread out over different parts of the system 3kn in the rope stretch 3 more to the harness etc. your body can take one hell of a beating most of the time though if it gets tweaked wrong it does break easily a fall from 1 foot breaking an ankle it happens. So in general i would say no a 15kn fall wouldn't break you but it could
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sspssp
Mar 21, 2006, 9:58 PM
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In reply to: You're right- sometimes even experienced people die from anchor failure. Is catastrophic anchor failure a freak thing? I like to think it is. Maybe it's not. But you can die sitting at home, in a car accident, riding your bike.
Every time I enter one of these types of discussions my standard response is:
read Accidents in North American Mountaineering. It costs ten bucks. It is the best experience you can get without the danger of actually experiencing it the hard way. And, as a bonus, it answers these type of quesitons.
Yes, anchor failure is rare that you might even call if a freak thing. That doesn't mean you should be complacent about it. No doubt, caution is one of the reasons that it is rare. However, without actually consulting my back copies, I would guess that at least 100 climbers die from head injuries due to rockfall and/or leader falls (most of whom were not wearing a helmet) for every climber killed by anchor failure.
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phugganut
Mar 21, 2006, 11:41 PM
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In reply to: ...The breaking strength on most cams is around 15kN (about 3,370 lbs). Can a FF2 fall generate this much force? It would depend, but I'd venture a guess that it could...
It can, but if you are protecting well then it won't. The maximum impact force of climbing ropes are generally well below that. Unfortunately, sometimes the amount of force the rock around the pro is well below that too.
In reply to: ...I'm not a physics person, but I do know that just by hangdogging, you generate about 3kN...
Really? That is news to me. I don't see how that is possible actually, but haven't seen any tests. I could be wrong though.
In reply to: ...From the time I leave my car until I'm back in it I assume I'm in danger at all times and actively compensate for it every step of the way....
Are you sure that you're not putting yourself in more danger by driving your car to & from the crag?
In reply to: ...Oh, and dogging on trad gear without rechecking it all the time would qualify as one of the "casual" approaches that can do some real damnage...
Man that is so true and so often overlooked. Dogging on trad gear is much more than bad style, it can increase the danger level in an activity that is already dangerous enough. Hell, A good friend took a big fall & busted her ankle up bad by dogging and then grabbing a draw on a SPORT route.
---Yes climbing is dangerous, but so is much of life. Driving, joining the Army, hiking in the mountains/desert, having sex, smoking, mountain biking, working as a fisherman, and even walking through downtown Phoenix can be just as dangerous. Hell, even spending all your time sitting on the couch watching TV in the safety of your own home can be dangerous b/c of the long term health risks of inactivity.
Just my 2 cents.
-Mike
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dynorat
Mar 22, 2006, 12:50 AM
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the issue of bolt failure really goes back to who is doing the bolting in your area. What type of bolts and hangars are they using? Glue or Expansion if at all? How much experience do they have? etc . . .
every application is unique b/c of rock type, quality, hardware interactions and bolting skill. So a better place to start would be to find out who does the bolting and find out what they use and why. From that you can then assess the strength.
oh yeah and it also has to do with how much space between bolts they usually put and all that jazz. so yeah a few factors to consider
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ridgeclimber
Mar 22, 2006, 1:04 AM
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The hangdogging 3kN statistic is not mine. I got it here. http://www.americanalpineclub.org/...AN.Summer2005.lr.pdf
In reply to: ridgeclimber wrote: ...The breaking strength on most cams is around 15kN (about 3,370 lbs). Can a FF2 fall generate this much force? It would depend, but I'd venture a guess that it could... It can, but if you are protecting well then it won't. The maximum impact force of climbing ropes are generally well below that. Unfortunately, sometimes the amount of force the rock around the pro is well below that too.
I'm not sure I get your point. What about big runouts, or zippering gear? In this case, you can't protect well. What if you zipper your gear and fall directly on to an all cam anchor? You can generate enough force that the entire anchor blows.
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billcoe_
Mar 22, 2006, 1:34 AM
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Ridgeclimber, yes I totally agree, that's why I said Healyjes post was good-I do agree sometimes there are dangers we can only minimize.
In reply to: In reply to: 6-Opps, set up a toprope to practice jugging and my belayer dropped me. I totally don't understand how a top-rope or a belayer would help with jugging. Was the guy jugging a fixed line backed up by a top-rope belay? Or was somebody actually weird enough to set up a normal top rope, have a belayer lock off one side, and then jug the other?
Yes, I can relate to your confusion. As I understand that one, and I wasn't personally there and the media screws it up (I got a first hand account of the 4 min before accident of a friend who was packing out and stopped to ask why they didn't just tie the rope off), the rope was on a standard toprope config (not tied off) and the belayer had him on belay while he jugged, not sure if they were trying to switch it around or the belayer just dropped the guy, but indications seemed to be that they were fine with the setup and were not going to change anything. No laughing or rude comments please, that guy died.
In reply to: Damn, Bill -- you climb in an area where no one is capable of learning from the mistakes of others? Seems it would be clear you need to stay out of the fucking mud at the top of your crag. Bunch of damn lemmings...
Sigh, we're all just slow around here or something, and you are preaching to the choir there Ed........sigh....I could tell you stories of my attempts at intervention........sigh.........Remember that not all of these are climbers, their seems to be no shortage of curious folks just looking down over the edge: .....
Opps.
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tarzan420
Mar 22, 2006, 1:45 AM
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3kN ~= 675lbs. If you consider hangdogging to be slumping on to the rope a short distance above the gear (say 6"), you could easily generate that much force on the gear (gear will feel ~2x what you feel on your harness).
15kN breaking your back? Wouldn't surprise me - let's be generous and say your harness evenly distributes the foce across 36 square inches - 3372/36 ~= 93 PSI. More force than I want to feel on my body, imo.
In reply to: I'm not sure I get your point. What about big runouts, or zippering gear? In this case, you can't protect well. What if you zipper your gear and fall directly on to an all cam anchor? You can generate enough force that the entire anchor blows.
Now, just to make sure you realize this, that 15kN rating has nothing to do with the force that will pull that cam out of a placement. It's breaking strength, and climbing gear rarely, if ever breaks in a fall situation that is not user error or product defect. Every gear failure (breakage) that I've ever heard about has either been a product defect or user error (usually loading over an edge, etc).
Now, if you're in a situation where a fall will blow the anchor, you'd best not fall. Maybe you can build a beefier anchor, add another three cams, whatever, but all that can do is decrease the chances that the entire thing blows.
Bottom line - no guarantees in climbing - there's always a chance that the fat three bolt anchor you're hanging off of will explode, sending you tumbling into the void. it may be a very small chance, but it's still a very real possibility nonetheless.
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ridgeclimber
Mar 22, 2006, 2:58 AM
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Yeah, I know that the breaking strength is not the same as how much force it takes to rip the gear. That probably takes significantly smaller amounts of force than actually breaking the cam. Meaning the statistic is even scarier. It scares me that in a really hard fall, a cam holding would be mere luck. Because it seems like it would be pretty easy to create that much force with long falls.
I think it is entirely possible to exert 15kN in a high factor fall. But I've never heard of a guy climbing on a dynamic rope snapping his spine even in a hard fall.
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