Technically I believe Scott Burke achieved the first male free ascent. Though over a long period of time he freed all pitches.

To not credit Scott's immense effort (and ultimate success) due to his climbing part of the route in a less-accepted style robs him of his due aclaim.

who has worked the hardest in the effort to free the route.

Give the guy his props!

Since when did a TR count as a free ascent?

Did Beth send every pitch on the Nose as well?

there was little mention of sex for Tom's ascent.

Tommy and Beth swapped leads on their team ascent so each would have toproped half of the pitches to Burke's 1. Is it only considered a redpoint if the pitch you are following has been lead clean by someone? Or is the issue that Scott didnt make a continuous ascent?

Since when did a TR count as a free ascent?

Did Beth send every pitch on the Nose as well?

I just find it funny that Lynn Hill's send of Midnight Lightning got all that press as being the first FEMALE send... yet there was little mention of sex for Tom's ascent.

It might just be splitting hairs to some, but I believe a clean toprope ascent is a free ascent. Just don't go calling it a redpoint.

I can say that I'm more aware on lead of any kind than on toprope. If you think the head game isn't part of climbing, I'm going to have to disagree with you.

A lot of people seem to forget about a man called Richard Wilson who apparently free-climbed all the pitches of the Nose in the early 1980's, although it was never publiscised/readily reported because he took a fall on the Great Roof pitch when his intention was for an onsight and he did not want to tarnish his reputation as an up-and-coming climber.

um, always?

Did Beth send every pitch on the Nose as well?

in the world of mortals, when you climb a multipitch route with your partner and swing leads, do you count it as a free ascent? yes.

I say screw that. Topropes are valid redpoints.

Vegas always did have different standards.

So.... who freed every pitch first? Who gets the 2nd ascent? Could it be that two women freed the Nose before a guy did? Enquiring minds want to know.

in the world of mortals, when you climb a multipitch route with your partner and swing leads, do you count it as a free ascent? yes.

A lot of people seem to forget about a man called Richard Wilson who apparently free-climbed all the pitches of the Nose in the early 1980's, although it was never publiscised/readily reported because he took a fall on the Great Roof pitch when his intention was for an onsight and he did not want to tarnish his reputation as an up-and-coming climber.

who cares? they both sent it free....doesnt much matter who sent which pitch first...

and if there is a specific pitch on the route i want to lead (usually the crux), then i lead it.

Why bother with leading it when a TR is just as valid?

personal preference.

Call it whatever you want, but it just ain't right.

I watched a guy stick a crux dyno to a jug just before the chains, try to get set up to clip, but couldn't hold on. Another wanker at the crag called it a send and congratulated him. I was pleased to see the climber had more dignity than that and didn't consider it a send because he felt like he didn't finish the route.

*Why bother with leading it when a TR is just as valid?*

I tend to agree with this to a certain extent. On short hard (sub 30') routes that have to be closely bolted for leading to avoid groundfalls, stopping to clip in every 6-8 feet often makes clipping as hard as actually doing the moves. I've always thought top roping something like that was just as valid as leading it.

On tall stuff though, the weight of the top rope starts to kick in, whether you are actually weighting it or not it takes a little bit of weight off of you. Top roping 100 foot tall routes where the crux is near the top means you've got 80-90 feet of rope pulling upwards on you when you're on the crux. In that situation top roping kinda does invalidate the ascent. I've done lots of routes that way, but I never claimed them as sends, because they weren't.

*Why bother with leading it when a TR is just as valid?*

I tend to agree with this to a certain extent. On short hard (sub 30') routes that have to be closely bolted for leading to avoid groundfalls, stopping to clip in every 6-8 feet often makes clipping as hard as actually doing the moves. I've always thought top roping something like that was just as valid as leading it.

On tall stuff though, the weight of the top rope starts to kick in, whether you are actually weighting it or not it takes a little bit of weight off of you. Top roping 100 foot tall routes where the crux is near the top means you've got 80-90 feet of rope pulling upwards on you when you're on the crux. In that situation top roping kinda does invalidate the ascent. I've done lots of routes that way, but I never claimed them as sends, because they weren't.

I've toproped some R rated trad leads already, but I don't consider them sends, they're circled on my ticklist with a TR beside them.

If someday I man up and get on them on lead and don't fall, I'll consider those lines sent and cross them off.

My comments are about sport climbing, so I don't disagree with the above.


But I do disagree with this. If you toprope-rehearsed them, you can never really "send" them in true traditional style. Same thing if you fall or hang on it without lowering. Sorry.

Maybe you should take up sport climbing instead. :)

Times change. The sport evolves.

I thought this thread was about free climbing el cap? How did we descend into stick clipping sport bolts?

So you're saying that because Tommy and Beth rehearsed the pitches then theirs wasn't a true send?

Following your logic, nothing short of onsight can be considered a send in true traditional style. That's what I'm getting from what you've said. It seems like your logic doesn't add up.

If Mr. Fracture wants to pretend his top rope ascents are every bit as valid and stylin as a lead ascent , I say whatever...but dont spray your confusion all over the internet, and for gods sake, dont call it evolution.

The next thing you know we will be hiking around the back side to get to the top and calling it a send!

There is nothing wrong with top-roping. But that is what it is, top roping.

Fracture, I'm just curious to pick your mind, can you describe for me a situation where realistic toproping is headier than leading? I'm honestly curious as to what you come up with.

Only when you say so adamantly that top roping is harder than lead climbing.

And toproping a pitch on El Cap and saying it went free is definitely NOT the same as leading it.

Nor is it "evolvution" of the sport...

On a traversing pitch under a roof that is only lead with pre-placed gear? Why do you really think it matters so much? If you don't even want to call it "free", apparently, for you, whether the rope goes to your left or your right even matters more than whether you can do the moves---that is, the actual climbing, which is supposedly the point of this whole activity, if you remember...

You haven't been up there, have you?

(What isn't mentioned in the above quote, though, is that Beth toproped more pitches---including the actual hardest pitch---than Scott Burke did.)

The Great Roof pitch is not a traverse ...

... and is not done on preplaced gear.

that may be true, but she led the Great Roof....which isnt exactly a 'gimme' pitch!