|
pastprime
Apr 7, 2006, 6:47 PM
Post #26 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2005
Posts: 251
|
A cordollete is a piece of gear. It can be used for equalized anchors, non-equalized anchors, good anchors, and crappy anchors. A lot of confusion has resulted from calling one particular anchor configuration a "Collete anchor". The goodness or badness of that one particular anchor configuration is no reflection on the value, or lack thereof, of a cordollete as a piece of gear.
People do stupid things with ropes (not saying this was stupid), but when we hear about it we don't go around posting "more evidence ropes are a bad idea".
|
|
|
|
|
pastprime
Apr 7, 2006, 7:05 PM
Post #27 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2005
Posts: 251
|
I'm wide open to correction on this, but my memory of the Tahquitz incident of a few years ago was that they found the carabiners on the anchor pieces sequentially clove hitched to the climbing rope, which was tied in to the harness. Why does this keep getting brought up in regards to cordellete anchors?
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Apr 7, 2006, 7:17 PM
Post #28 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
In reply to: I meant that failing pieces were because of a) s--- placements (given they were the only placements available), b) unequal forces due to the cordelette, c) a combination effect, or d) none of the above.
Sheesh.
Here's what we can assume. A competent climber placed gear he assumed to be at least worth placing. i.e. it would hold some level of force.
Here is what we know. He "equalized" eight pieces to comprise his anchor. Two of the placements quickly failed after the anchor was loaded.
The most likely reason the two pieces failed was due to the fact the components in the anchor were in fact not equally loaded. Why would I say this... had the relatively small force that was placed on the anchor been distributed equally among 8 pieces, 8 pieces placed by a competent climber and deemed worthy of placement, the portion of the forced experienced by the individual placements should have been low enough to not cause them to fail.
It is possible that the placements were soooo bad that even the small force they have experienced (1/8 of the total force) would have cause them to fail. But I doubt this because he bothered to place them to begin with and tested them with a good yank. And he didn't identify these pieces as specifically worse than the other 6 pieces.
So the question we will likely never be able to answer is.... drum roll please....
Would dynamic equalization have prevent those two pieces from failing, considering the limitations we understand that is involved in trying to truly equalize 8 frickin' pieces?
Dunno, but I would definitely prefer to stack the cards in my favor.
|
|
|
|
|
csproul
Apr 7, 2006, 7:18 PM
Post #29 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769
|
In reply to: Hey csproul, no s--- sherlock, if you read all the posts you would have got what I was talking about. I meant that failing pieces were because of a) s--- placements (given they were the only placements available), b) unequal forces due to the cordelette, c) a combination effect, or d) none of the above. NOW, if he had bomber placements with a cordelette and some of the placements popped - we might be able to assume that the pieces faililng were most likely due to the cordelette..........duhhhhhh edited to add: you obviously have not read the sliding X post in the trad forum which points out that the cordelette is not necessarily the best even for bomber placements because it doesn't necessarily equalize forces. Even bomber gear on factor 2 fall can rip if they're not backed up and equalized with other pieces.....
In reply to: Even bomber gear on factor 2 fall can rip if they're not backed up and equalized with other pieces |
|
|
|
|
csproul
Apr 7, 2006, 7:21 PM
Post #30 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769
|
In reply to: Hey csproul, no s--- sherlock, if you read all the posts you would have got what I was talking about. I meant that failing pieces were because of a) s--- placements (given they were the only placements available), b) unequal forces due to the cordelette, c) a combination effect, or d) none of the above. |
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Apr 7, 2006, 7:30 PM
Post #31 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
In reply to: I'm wide open to correction on this, but my memory of the Tahquitz incident of a few years ago was that they found the carabiners on the anchor pieces sequentially clove hitched to the climbing rope, which was tied in to the harness. Why does this keep getting brought up in regards to cordellete anchors?
As I recall, the anchor was surmised to be 4 pieces of gear in a traditional cordelette anchor. Because of the low likely hood of 4 equalized pieces failing, it is speculated to be a result of unequal load distribution and sequential failure (aka cascade failure).
Speculation and all that being what it is... but a reasonable explanation.
|
|
|
|
|
pastprime
Apr 7, 2006, 8:23 PM
Post #32 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2005
Posts: 251
|
Thanks, tradklime. I didn't know that.
|
|
|
|
|
sterlingjim
Apr 7, 2006, 9:08 PM
Post #33 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 7, 2006
Posts: 251
|
Here's a real cordelette horror story for you:
Once upon a time Vivalargo asked me to do a 'little bit of testing' on cordelettes and sliding X's. I got stuck on the tower for weeks. There was heavy and fast moving steel and loud noises; oh the horrible noise. Nylon, Spectra, Technora, and Dyneema was getting ripped to shreds. I even broke carabiners by accident.
I had no idea what a sh!t storm I was walking into. It was horrible. I barely survived.
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Apr 7, 2006, 9:43 PM
Post #34 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
Yea... but thanks for your work Jim.
sorry about the loss of your biner.. it broke so soon.. :sniff:
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Apr 8, 2006, 5:02 AM
Post #35 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
Well, I'm glad to see my hissy fit at least sparked some discussion. :oops:
Regarding the quality of the pieces:
The two that popped were two of the three I judged to be the worst. I mean, who (except a lunatic like me) hauls off a tied-off pin?
I was on about a 70-degree slab, i.e. pretty much a hanging belay. I felt that two of the pieces were bomber. Don't know about you, but I don't set up a hanging belay, haul and have my partner jug on two bomber pieces of gear if I can help it. I'll back it up, even if it's 3/8" stainless bolts in flawless El Cap granite.
That said, some have postulated that the forces were "relatively low"... Personally, sans falls, I feel that the highest forces climbing anchors ever see is hauling a heavy bag up low-angle, serrated rock. Forces in excess of 500 pounds are not uncommon. Especially for a fatty like me, bouncing the stubborn pig over some downward-pointing sawblade.
My personal opinion is that, had I equalized even the two pieces that popped with a magic X, they might have held. Why didn't I? With the slings I had available, the truncated angle of pull on the cam would have made the placement useless.
SO: yup, crap geat was at fault. But the lack of true equalization, in this case, may have significantly contributed to the failure of two placements.
Or not.
That cover the bases pretty well?
Knotted, fixed-leg cordelette is a fantastic tool. But before we blindly trust it as the best answer in any specific situation, we need to take a hard look at our placements, the rock, and what other tools might be in the tool chest.
Having seen this failure first hand, I ask myself: Knowing what I do now, would I have used the cordelette any differently?
The answer is, absolutely. I would have drilled and clipped that sucker into the fatty bolt from the outset. :D
Cheers,
Brutus
|
|
|
|
|
philbox
Moderator
Apr 10, 2006, 6:06 AM
Post #36 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 13105
|
Love ya work Brutus. :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
winkwinklambonini
Apr 11, 2006, 12:06 AM
Post #37 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 1579
|
I have a horror story for you.....Yesterday, Sunday, I made a cordellette anchor in a verticle crack with, top to bottom, a black metolious, a nice nut, and a .75 camalot. I thought briefly about doing some kind of fancy magic X trick, but I hands never stopped doing what they were used to. When I was climbing above it, I looked down at it, thought for a moment, and my partner said, "What!? What's wrong?". "Nothing", I said, laughing on the inside.
|
|
|
|
|
jimdavis
Apr 12, 2006, 3:44 AM
Post #38 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935
|
I have my own cordelette horror story....I was on scene for a nasty leader fall where the patient got littered out...I lost both of my nylon cordelettes to patient packaging in 1 day.... :cry:
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
dudemanbu
Apr 12, 2006, 4:43 AM
Post #39 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 3, 2005
Posts: 941
|
I used my cordolette to set up a top rope anchor last year, and never saw it again.
:shock:
|
|
|
|
|
catbird_seat
Apr 14, 2006, 11:58 PM
Post #40 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 7, 2004
Posts: 425
|
So Brutus, did you set any of your pieces in opposition to one another by means of slings or some other method? Would it have made any difference?
Making the individual anchor points omnidirectional can definitely help, even though the cordellette configuration is poor at distributing the load among those points.
|
|
|
|
|
justthemaid
Apr 15, 2006, 1:30 AM
Post #41 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2004
Posts: 777
|
[quote="tradklime"]In reply to: I recall a story by someone who no longer posts on this site of a situation where they were jugging (I believe) a rope that was attached to a cordelette anchor between a few pins. The person said they could feel the rope shifting and they ascended, but later determined that he was actually feeling the sequential failure of the pins. The result was anchor failure, a long fall, and some broken bones. That's all hear-say on my part, perhaps someone recalls the story and could find a link to post it.
Here's the story if anyone is interested.
|
|
|
|
|
grateful1
Apr 15, 2006, 2:31 AM
Post #42 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 14, 2006
Posts: 9
|
i'm just happy to see that other people are using cordelettes. the guys i climb with build anchors with a bunch of clove hitches, which seems a little out of date to me. yea for the cordelette!
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Apr 15, 2006, 10:09 PM
Post #43 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
In reply to: So Brutus, did you set any of your pieces in opposition to one another by means of slings or some other method? Would it have made any difference? Making the individual anchor points omnidirectional can definitely help, even though the cordellette configuration is poor at distributing the load among those points.
As I recall, two of the eight pieces were set in opposition to each other using slings, and otherwise would have been worthless for straight outward pull. They held, as did the two bomber pieces, and another couple that I didn't trust as much.
FWIW, I still feel that rope anchors equalized or "pseudo-equalized" using cloves, atomic clip, etc. has its place, particularly with good pro, and will continue to use that technique as well, when appropriate, until I'm shown figures indicating that it verges on suicidal.
Brutus
|
|
|
|
|
schveety
Apr 17, 2006, 5:24 PM
Post #44 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 3, 2005
Posts: 98
|
hey csproul, sorry for being snotty, I just hate it when people misintrepret my posts (which I should be used to given this is the internet), I'm such a shit sometimes. Anyway, the reason I posted all situations was not to be sure I was right, it was to list all the possibilities..... because I wasn't seeing where someone could blame it fully on the cordelette (I'm a scientists, I can't help but be skeptical sometimes). Anyway, thanks for the posts Brutus, you talking more about it really helped to clear things up. I am always trying to learn from other people's stories and appreciate any new stories and advice.
|
|
|
|
|
rckymtnlowballer
Apr 18, 2006, 12:52 AM
Post #45 of 45
(8230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 13, 2006
Posts: 23
|
has anyone explored the option that it wasn't the cordelette OR the bad gear? That maybe his second was a fat and bloated beer swilling beef jerky gargling AID CLIMBER? I mean the guy was aid climbing. he had to be fat.
|
|
|
|
|
|
