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billcoe_
Apr 26, 2006, 5:54 AM
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In reply to: Somewhat similar topic: I bought a BD dynex runner, is it safe/acceptable to tie knots and make a daisyish type deal with this? What kind of knot would one use? Waterknot on a bite was mentioned on the first page..isnt that just an overhand?
What does the Mfg say? Knots will reduce strength. What is it to start with?
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elnero
Apr 26, 2006, 6:00 AM
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Rated as "Minimum Strength 22Kn" (bdel.com), no mention of knots or anything on the website. I'm mostly using this as an anchor in a top rope, so it'll be fine for sure there, but would be nice to know if i'll stay on the rock in other situations.
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elnero
Apr 27, 2006, 5:05 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Somewhat similar topic: I bought a BD dynex runner, is it safe/acceptable to tie knots and make a daisyish type deal with this? What kind of knot would one use? Waterknot on a bite was mentioned on the first page..isnt that just an overhand? What does the Mfg say? Knots will reduce strength. What is it to start with?
So this thread seems kinda dead, but for those who care:
BD says that tying knots in the runner will remove the dynamic factor and cause shock loading, not so great.
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mtnlvr
May 1, 2006, 3:23 AM
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Any results on the PAS drops?
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sterlingjim
May 1, 2006, 12:41 PM
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Hopefully this week if I have the time. If not then next week for sure.
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sterlingjim
May 4, 2006, 2:43 AM
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OK, standard disclaimer: this is a very severe test and should not be considered conclusive in any way.
You all owe norushnomore a beer or two (each) for the donation of 2 Metolius PAS rigs.
the results:
They died quick and painless.
Sample #1) 21.5 kN at 0.014 sec. broke
Sample #2) 21.7 kN at 0.018 sec. broke
FF just under 2, probably about 1.9. Mass 80kg. Drop distance 48"+/- 2"
Failures occurred at the loop to loop contact points.
The PAS is rated for 18kN but I don't know what method they use to arrive at that number. 22kN is the CE minimum for slings. In any case the impacts were in line with the other slings that I tested and posted earlier. Of course the rating means nothing if the sling breaks.
One other note or rather a confession: on the first drop I attached the PAS to the mass with a carabiner and on the second I girth hitched it to another sling basket-ed to the eye of the mass. In neither case did the failure occur at the attachment to the mass.
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rockguide
May 4, 2006, 3:03 AM
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In reply to: Maybe I am missing the point. 9 MM cord is rated at 18.6 KN(black diamond web site), which I am told is sufficient for use as cordelette in an anchor system. Full strength daisy chain is rated at 19 KN. As long as the daisy is in good shape and clipped properly, what is the concern?
the cord is supposed to be backed up. The points you are missing are dynamics and redundancy.
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mtnlvr
May 4, 2006, 3:45 AM
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Nice work sterlingjim, and definitely a shot out to norushnomore for donatining the PAS's.
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patto
May 4, 2006, 10:21 AM
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Fantastic work with the testing. It shows how important it is have a energy absorbing component every for small falls.
Question do Nylon slings withstand factor 2 falls with an 80kg weight?
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sterlingjim
May 4, 2006, 11:59 AM
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In reply to: Fantastic work with the testing. It shows how important it is have a energy absorbing component every for small falls. Question do Nylon slings withstand factor 2 falls with an 80kg weight?
Yes they do, every time so far. I haven't done enough samples of any of them to be statistically significant but there seems to be a bit of a trend.
Go back a few pages in this thread and you'll see some other drops I posted which included nylon slings.
If I had enough slings to keep going with this I can try to determine at what FF the sling would survive. Unfortunately the stuff is not cheap.
Jim
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booger
May 8, 2006, 12:07 PM
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Guys,
Obviously, I consider my daisy retired now. But I've got a few questions related to this thread:
1. What, then, is the consensus regarding a back-up?
-Primary: rope to anchor.
-Backup: I climb on twins, so I will use my second rope. But if you're using a single rope?
2. For a rappel situation, what should I be anchored with? While I'm sorting rope I can't use it to anchor - or does it matter in this case since I don't have a climber on belay?
3. I've seen some folks on this side of the pond using what looks like a home-made rope-cordolette. Basically, a section of rope (looks around 10mm min.) knotted at each end (didn't see which knot) around a locker. Is this a safe option? I'm fairly sure I've seen something similar for sale at the local shop as well.
Thanks,
Taz
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papounet
May 8, 2006, 5:01 PM
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In reply to: Guys, Obviously, I consider my daisy retired now. But I've got a few questions related to this thread: 1. What, then, is the consensus regarding a back-up? -Primary: rope to anchor. -Backup: I climb on twins, so I will use my second rope. But if you're using a single rope?
with 2 bolts: one clove-hitch to a locker to adjust and a fig-8 on a second biner (such as the top biner of the quickdraw on teh second point)
the risk is not that the ope between you and the point gets cut, it is that the point is weak.
in a trad setup, the single rope connected to the powerpoint of the anchor is enough IMHO
are you climbing on twins or on double ropes ?
In reply to: 2. For a rappel situation, what should I be anchored with? While I'm sorting rope I can't use it to anchor - or does it matter in this case since I don't have a climber on belay?
I that particular case, when there is no risk of shockloading, using a sling or a dedicated system is mandatory.
the preferred setup for me is a double length sling girth-hitched to my belay loop, a knot halfways allow me to have a descender (reverso) at face level (away from my french machard auto-block knot attached to the same belay loop). the end part of the sling away from me (the double length part of it) gets another locker which act as my daisy.
http://fr.petzl.com/...nseil=37&Activite=14
http://fr.petzl.com/...s/Conseil_37_1_5.gif
Or if you have money to spare and want a full strenght adjustable, go get a Kong Slyde.
If you are into knots, there are a few adjustable-blocking knots you may want to use on a 1.5m piece of dynamic rope.
If you are into multi-purpose system, go get a ropeman and build yourself a adjustable daisy.
In reply to: 3. I've seen some folks on this side of the pond using what looks like a home-made rope-cordolette. Basically, a section of rope (looks around 10mm min.) knotted at each end (didn't see which knot) around a locker. Is this a safe option? I'm fairly sure I've seen something similar for sale at the local shop as well. Thanks, Taz
Dual lanyard setup (a longer piece of rope attached at the middel to the belay loop and with two lockers is a favorite of cavers, not of moutaineers.
PS: I am too living in Brussels
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swebster
May 8, 2006, 11:22 PM
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I think a lot of the tests in this thread are missing the mark. Clearly the material matters when you do a drop test with a dead weight, but in reality you have a person in a harness.
I know it is difficult to do the tests, but I think that the person/harness absorption becomes the limiting factor on short falls.
So, it seems from the Rock and Ice testing that Duane Raleigh did that he dropped himself 24 inches on a 12 inch quickdraw and generated 7kN, but he should have then done this same drop on a 12 inch climbing rope. I bet it is less, but something like 6.5 kN, not way lower like most people seem to be implying.
I'm not saying that I'm an expert, but I am doing my PhD in physics, so I hope I'm not being totally ridiculous. I understand that people want to use the best possible thing, but you have to figure out what the limiting factor is. I also think that the main lesson shouldn't be: "avoid high fall factor falls on static line," it should be: "avoid high fall factor falls always."
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rockguide
May 9, 2006, 1:51 AM
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We have a sacrificial volunteer for the tests!
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can_climber
May 9, 2006, 12:42 PM
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So I am really wanting to toss my daisy as an anchoring cord now.
Jim's tests have me thinking about anchoring with a 1.5m piece of climbing rope when climbing on a single lead line. The mess at your harness will be no worse than climbing double ropes, and you can quickly adjust your distance with a clove hitch on biner joining your 1.5m piece to the anchors.
What do the critical thinkers think of that?
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csproul
May 9, 2006, 12:57 PM
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In reply to: Jim's tests have me thinking about anchoring with a 1.5m piece of climbing rope when climbing on a single lead line. The mess at your harness will be no worse than climbing double ropes, and you can quickly adjust your distance with a clove hitch on biner joining your 1.5m piece to the anchors. |
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can_climber
May 9, 2006, 1:04 PM
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You make a good point.
Its always wise to anchor in with the climbing rope. However there may be a few situations in which you would rather not have the lead line as your primary (load bearing) attachment to the anchors, but rather a shorter piece of cord. Of course you would still anchor with the lead line as a backup.
These are reasons why I think it would be nice to have a second cord. If you were doing a multi-pitch rappel (as you said). If you need to escape the belay in a rescue situation. Lastly, if you do happen to fall at the anchors, I think we can both agree you would rather replace a 1.5m section of rope than cut the end off your lead line.
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csproul
May 9, 2006, 1:18 PM
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I'll agree, there might be a few instances where you might not want to use your climbing rope, but I still think they are very rare. If you're bothering to use the rope as a back-up, I see no reason to not use it as the primary. I still see no problem with using slings at multi-pitch raps under most circumstances. Belay escapes are still reasonably done with the rope; if you're still anchored you are on your separate end of the rope, or if you are escaping the anchor all together you don't want to be anchored anyway. And I'm not sure why I'd cut off the end of my rope for a single fall at the anchor. There are situations where you just don't want to eat up the extra rope on both ends. I guess I'll agree that IF you are going to carry something extra that a piece of dynamic rope is better than a daisy, but I still don't think I'll be carrying an extra piece of equipment just to anchor with.
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booger
May 9, 2006, 1:22 PM
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In reply to: with 2 bolts: one clove-hitch to a locker to adjust and a fig-8 on a second biner (such as the top biner of the quickdraw on teh second point) the risk is not that the ope between you and the point gets cut, it is that the point is weak. in a trad setup, the single rope connected to the powerpoint of the anchor is enough IMHO are you climbing on twins or on double ropes ?
For trad, I always climb on twins. I personally do not think that one connection is enough, though I see it plenty. I feel safer to have a backup - 2 points of connection at all times - but that's me. Somebody a few posts back mentioned keeping the rope as the 'short' connection, and using a cordolette as the backup. That seems like the most viable solution so far.
Regarding the rappell - I am confident with my set-up. The part I was really looking for was where you said: "when there is no risk of shockloading, using a sling or a dedicated system is mandatory. " - But I think folks are pointing out that daisies and other non-flex systems inherently carry a shock-load risk (even if you're just hanging out on them and step up to fiddle with something) that rope systems do not. Or am I totally confused here? :?
Thanks for the post papounet. I climb at Stone Age if you ever feel like meeting up :D
I'd still like to see what others have to say about this. :?:
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austinclmbr
May 9, 2006, 1:26 PM
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I like this idea. This seems to solve most of the problems related to daisies. It is obvious that a lot of climbers (especially sport climbers) want something quick, easy, and adjustable to anchor into at the top of a route. and a short piece of dyno rope fits the bill!! A clove with a stopper knot in the end of the rope should make adjustabilty easy, and the dyna,ic aspect would be great to belay from.
Why bother? why not just use the rope your climbing on? Well, for one, the way I happen to manage rope on a multi-pitch; I currently use the runner I am backed up on (daisy chain used properly) to flake the rope over as my second (and or third)come up. If I need to lead the next pitch I can hand over the entire coil without re-flaking, and climb on a clean, flaked rope. On the other hand, if I were to come into a belay station, and tie in with my rope, bring up my second, then want to lead, I find the need to re-flake. Not the way to get 20 pitches done in a day.
Now, I know there are ways to not have to re-flake, I just developed habits that are contrary. At this point, I feel safe in my habits, as do others, and it would make me feel less safe to go back and develop new habits contradictory to the old ones. But, I think I am gonna try this dynamic rope -as-a-sling deal and se how it works, hell it might even make hanging belays a little more bearable (I know prob not).
Thanks for the conversation guys!
-J
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csproul
May 9, 2006, 2:00 PM
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In reply to: Why bother? why not just use the rope your climbing on? Well, for one, the way I happen to manage rope on a multi-pitch; I currently use the runner I am backed up on (daisy chain used properly) to flake the rope over as my second (and or third)come up. If I need to lead the next pitch I can hand over the entire coil without re-flaking, and climb on a clean, flaked rope. On the other hand, if I were to come into a belay station, and tie in with my rope, bring up my second, then want to lead, I find the need to re-flake. Not the way to get 20 pitches done in a day. |
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swebster
May 9, 2006, 8:13 PM
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In reply to: Regarding the rappell - I am confident with my set-up. The part I was really looking for was where you said: "when there is no risk of shockloading, using a sling or a dedicated system is mandatory. " - But I think folks are pointing out that daisies and other non-flex systems inherently carry a shock-load risk (even if you're just hanging out on them and step up to fiddle with something) that rope systems do not. Or am I totally confused here?
I don't think you are totally confused, but I think it is important to know that you can still generate relatively high loads when tied in with a climbing rope.
If you are at a station belaying, tied in with a rope, that is 0.5m long, then are "fiddling around" 0.5 m above your anchor and you fall, you will be taking a factor 2 fall... and that is bad. It's bad if tied in with a daisy and it is still bad if tied in with a rope.
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sterlingjim
May 10, 2006, 2:27 PM
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In reply to: If you are at a station belaying, tied in with a rope, that is 0.5m long, then are "fiddling around" 0.5 m above your anchor and you fall, you will be taking a factor 2 fall... and that is bad. It's bad if tied in with a daisy and it is still bad if tied in with a rope.
This may be true, however, the daisy will break and the rope will not. That said, I will try to prove myself wrong and do the drop tests. Hopefully I can do it today or at least sometime within the next week. I don't have a heck of a lot of Spectra daisies on hand so I may have to use runners. Also since the stuff is a bit pricey I may limit the number of drops on the slings.
Jim
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swebster
May 10, 2006, 2:40 PM
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In reply to: This may be true, however, the daisy will break and the rope will not. That said, I will try to prove myself wrong and do the drop tests. Hopefully I can do it today or at least sometime within the next week. I don't have a heck of a lot of Spectra daisies on hand so I may have to use runners. Also since the stuff is a bit pricey I may limit the number of drops on the slings.
Actually, I think neither will break in a real life situation. The person in the harness absorbs a lot of energy. It is clear that if you do a drop test with a rigid load, then basically the only thing that determines the force is the "rope" material... but if there is a person in a harness, they absorb a lot of energy regardless of the material.
Presumably if you do this test you will find that the daisy gets like >20 kN (you already did this didn't you?) and breaks, but the rope will get something like 10 kN (or something similar to what the rope manufacturer specifies for that particular rope). If you do the test with a real person, I think the spectra daisy will be much lower, like say, 10 kN, and the rope will be better, but not too much, say 8 kN... since it is still the person doing most of the absorbing.
Unfortunately this is all hard to test since people don't like being dropped like this, and the way they land can affect the forces etc.
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heiko
May 10, 2006, 2:43 PM
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So it seems we're still looking for a good solution of anchoring oneself when fiddling around at a rapell station (i.e. you can't use the ropes to anchor yourself).
I personally use an adjustable knot on 7ft of 6mm accessory cord, but it doesn't really satisfy me as it's only one anchor point and according to sterlingjim's tests accessory cord is also suboptimal.
Any non-static ideas?
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