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noshoesnoshirt
May 6, 2006, 5:39 AM
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Don't you people have jobs?
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therealbovine
May 9, 2006, 2:27 PM
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Why have we not heard a peep from Kris French. Was it not he who bolted the routes in question? Madflash should'nt have to take all the heat for this guy...
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beny
May 9, 2006, 6:45 PM
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you're right, madflash shouldn't have to answer to everyone for someone's actions. but its actually kris french. probably better spell it right to protect the innocent. he moved recently from durango. his rc.com name is bumblee.
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beny
May 9, 2006, 6:50 PM
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you're right, madflash shouldn't have to answer to everyone for someone's actions. but its actually kris french. probably better spell it right to protect the innocent. he moved recently from durango. his rc.com name is gumbee.
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tradhead
May 9, 2006, 7:35 PM
Post #130 of 144
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I really don't care who speaks for him as long as this French Kiss or whatever his name is doesn't bolt lines at Sam's on rap! So if you're out there Frenchy keep your drill at home it's obvious you're too immature to use it wisely.
Sam's will remain trad LIKE IT OR NOT!
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yankee
May 10, 2006, 3:51 AM
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Just when I thought this thread was done, it picks back up again, it must be the rainy weather were having.
tradhead wrote:
In reply to: Sam's will remain trad LIKE IT OR NOT!
Dude I am totally with you, Beny is on board, Jer, therealbovine,crankmarklar, madscientist, golsen, cedk might be, lets get a few more and remove all the fixed hardware at Sam's and make it a true Trad Area. Either you got the balls to lead it on gear or just put your tail between your legs and head over to HCR, pay your $5 and clip those sissy bolts. None of this girlyman shit...., bolt here because I can't find a placement, step up and be a man and do the thing natural, leave the rock in its natural state!!!!
All I can say, is you boys can't have it both ways, its either all or none.
I Wrote:
In reply to: Since you say climbing has rules, you might be able to fill me in on something that has bugged me for awhile about FA's. Who actually gets the FA, is it the guy who TR's it first or is it the guy who lead it first. What about a Sport route and then someone does that Sport route on gear, that someone has done it in better style so should he have the FA and does he have the right to yank out the bolts. Also what if there is a trad route and someone solos it, does the guy who solos it get the FA. Since he has done it in better style can he go back and bolt the route if he so chooses. Just wondering since climbing has these rules I was unaware of.
Does someone out there have an answer for me?
Also, therealbovine
You never let us know which guide book you quoted from? Because, it sounds like to me we need to remove all the bolts from Sams to make it a Traditional Climbing Area.
In reply to: Traditional Climbing - Ascending rock from the ground up, using leader-placed protection (including cams, nuts, slings, etc.) for security which is removed after the climb, leaving no trace of passage. Without the safety and convenience of drilled bolts installed by others, the leader is responsible for managing his own protection system as he ascends the rock. In a broader context, traditional climbing also represents a closely-held set of values and ethics with specific importance placed upon adventure and self-sufficiency, style of ascent, respect for nature and all its inhabitants, and opposition to the destruction of adventure through artificial modification of the natural world. |
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therealbovine
May 10, 2006, 2:10 PM
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In reply to: therealbovine, You never let us know which guide book you quoted from? Because, it sounds like to me we need to remove all the bolts from Sam's to make it a Traditional Climbing Area.
Long Dong Trad Climbs by Matt Robertson, Taiwan's finest traditional rock climbing routes...
Your "silly game" is darn silly Chris. You know as well as anyone that bolts are a part of the game, and that at a traditional climbing area bolts are typically, as in this case, permitted if placed using traditional placement techniques (i.e., on lead). Removing all of the bolts at Sam's is a lame idea. Especially from a guy who claims to have climbed there only "a half dozen times" but lives 20 minutes away... with his very own self-made sport climbing mecca in his backyard...
Here is his definition for First Ascent, although I know you know the answer to this question, at least I would hope someone who owns two climbing gyms and is a rep in the outdoor industry would know...
Just passing along the crap you are dishing out, no offense intended of course..
First Ascent: The opening of a rock climb. The FA is the event of a climbing route being led, bottom to top, which has not previously been climbed on lead. Generally a top-rope protected ascent does not qualify as a first ascent, though a lead attempt with a fall or other use of gear for progress may be considered a FA so long as it is noted the route was done using aid. When a route is successfully led as a free climb (i.e. with no falls or aid), this is called the first free ascent. Confusingly, in many free climbing areas the first free ascent is referred to simply as the first ascent or FA. The person who leads the route first is identified as the first ascentionist and is credited with the "FA".
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tradhead
May 10, 2006, 2:13 PM
Post #133 of 144
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Hey Yankster,
You got it all wrong dude!
I don't want to remove all bolts at Sam's! Areas can remain trad as long as the bolts are put up on lead. I feel that you are not in this discussion to make an improvement at Sam's. Word has it that you have your own crag that's rad but the shit your throwing down on this board is wrong. Why would anyone want to have a grid bolted area every where they go like in your case? You got one in your back yard and if you and your Arkansas cronies have your way you would have the same at Sam's? Makes no sense dude. We want to have an area that has some adventure not a clip and go HCR. Can't have it both ways is a dumb ass comment and you know it and if you don't then you are well...
Don't worry about the FA's dude you need to worry more about where your coming from especially someone who has climbed on El Cap. I know a lot of guys who have climbed the Captain and none of them have ever wanted to grid bolt anything nor have they wanted to pull all the bolts in an area. Jasper must be getting boring huh?
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offwidth123
May 10, 2006, 6:35 PM
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Hey Yanster,
I have been following this thread for a little bit. I know that a lot of this stuff is just talk. When someone starts talking about pulling down bolts on routes that I put heart, time and money into, I take that personally if I know the person. I have climbed with you Chris on some of these routes you are talking about pulling bolts on. I have always had a good time climbing with you. I just love climbing some of the routes on your property. I hope I would never threaten to pull down another climbers routes especially routes that are established and have been climbed on for years. So what's up? If you are joking no problem but I don't think it is funny to joke about pulling down a friend's routes. Or at least I don't think it is funny.
If this is about the Tradition versus Sport climbing. The vast majority of routes at Sam's are Trad no question. From what I have seen the vast majority of climbers at Sam's just do not want to see grid bolting. The style of bolting at Sam's from on lead not rappel was adopted by the majority of climbers in the early 80's from the Dog Walk down to the Hero Maker area. The style was adopted not because any one thought they were good climbers or wanted to prove something. It was adopted because they majority of climbers did not want to see grid bolting at Sam's. It was the best method anyone knew to control bolting without having committees or worse yet the government dictate who could or what could be bolted. At the same time there was also a lot of notice by Government about bolting all across the US. I am sure a lot of climbers can remember that. Here at Sam's Throne that issue came up with the forest Department and we talk and work with the Forest Department at that time. There was talk of forming a committee to control bolting. Who But history showed that the climbers had already been policeing themselves. Well it has stopped raining and I need to get back to work.
Clay
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yankee
May 10, 2006, 8:14 PM
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I have climbed at a lot of Traditional Areas such as Devils Lake, WI, Gunks, NY, Palisades on the North Shore(your not even supposed to use chalk there), MN, Taylor's Falls, MN.. there is more but I cannot think of them right now.
These areas are hard core Traditional Areas, you can not place a bolt at these places even from the ground up on lead, its either TR or Lead it on gear. I think these places are great and have there spot in climbing.
I have climbed at a lot of Traditional Areas such as J-Tree, CA, Seneca Rock, WV, Yosemite, CA, City of Rock, ID, Little Cotton Wood Canyon, UT, Red Rocks, NV , New River Gorge and the Red (yep, these were Trad areas before sport routes went in, matter fact I know lots of people who only trad climb at these places) any way I could list twenty more if need be.
These Traditional Climbing areas have rap bolted sport routes, ground up sport routes, mixed routes and trad lines. These places are also great if not the Holy Grounds of climbing.
So my question to you guys is what kinda area is Sam's, should it be Hard Core Traditional area with no bolts or should it be a Traditional Climbing Area w/ bolts were the FA style is respected.
Like it or hate it we should respect the FA style, if you want that mixed route respected you need to respect that rap bolted line.
Does the Forest Service say bolts must be placed on lead from the ground up. They are the only ones who can make the rules for Sam's, the rest of this silliness is about Respect.
So, you guys that want to do those existing FA lines from the ground up get busy, because my Arkansas Cronies(man, this is so cool I have my very on Cronies) will probably be coming down to rap bolt those lines.
Sean,
Its true I have only been to Sam's half a dozen times and its only 20 minutes away(I have my own sand box to play in). I do not want to grid bolt or place a single bolt a Sam's. Honestly, I think Sam's would be a great pristine and natural climbing area if there were no bolts. It would be like Devils Lake, you either TR or you do the route on natural gear.
Unfortunately, Sam's is one of those Traditional Climbing areas that has sport lines, mixed lines and trad lines, so we need to respect FA style.
Also you never really answered my ?.
I wrote:
In reply to: Since you say climbing has rules, you might be able to fill me in on something that has bugged me for awhile about FA's. Who actually gets the FA, is it the guy who TR's it first or is it the guy who lead it first. What about a Sport route and then someone does that Sport route on gear, that someone has done it in better style so should he have the FA and does he have the right to yank out the bolts. Also what if there is a trad route and someone solos it, does the guy who solos it get the FA. Since he has done it in better style can he go back and bolt the route if he so chooses.
Just wondering your feelings on this ?.
Clay,
Dude you know me man, I would never go and chop any ones route, I have way to much RESPECT for someones route. Kinda, hurt that you would even think that I would. We do need to do some more climbing together. Sorry, if I got you so upset, but you have to admit, I lite this thread up again.
Come on, I live in Jasper, and its been raining for over a week now, of course I have to keep myself entertained.
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crankmarklar
May 10, 2006, 8:41 PM
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Well put Clay.
I guarantee climbers from Oklahoma at least the ones I know do not want to see any bolt pulling at Sam's except bolts put in on rappel. We want the area to stay just as it has been since I've been climbing there some 16 years now.
It's a shame with the technology we have that people throw words around without anything to back them up other than more spray. The Internet is a wonderful tool to get the word out on things but people tend to abuse it like anything else.
We have turned this discussion fifty different ways and now it seems to be coming down to just a couple people firing off at the mouth with no intention of resolving this issue and preserving a crags ethic.
I have a five hour drive to Arkansas which I have made hundreds of times and the last thing that I want to see is some kid with a drill telling me and my partner that his newly rap bolted line is going to be one of Arkansas top ten routes with bolts just a few feet away from an area icon like Coup D Etat.
Those of us who have been climbing at Sam's for a long time have walked by many routes including the "NEW" rap bolted eye sore next to Coup D Etat. None of us would have dared to rap bolting it because of the areas standard of ground up. This guy Chris French did not "discover" an untouched line that we overlooked. He rapped bolted with no concern for anyone else other than to beat his chest as if to say LOOK AT WHAT I HAVE DONE!
This is the reason the entire ethic about Sam's surfaced. Chris French rap bolted a route and his buddies thinking the climbing community would be swayed into thinking that grid bolting is the way for Sam's. Wake up guys! You are wrong and we aren’t biting.
Semper Fidelis,
Tony
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offwidth123
May 11, 2006, 12:48 AM
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Hey Chris
It did liven up the thread. I guess this is still about style of climbing at Sam's. O.K. I can by that. We are not talking about everywhere else in Arkansas were rap bolting is acepted. I am not going to try to argue this one. After climbing at Sam's for the last twenty years hundreds of climbers tell me they want this style to remain there. I going to have to agree to disgree on rap bolting at Sam's. Rap bolting at Sam's is still concered bad style. If the major want things to change they will.
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therealbovine
May 11, 2006, 2:07 PM
Post #138 of 144
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Yankee Wrote:
In reply to: Does the Forest Service say bolts must be placed on lead from the ground up. They are the only ones who can make the rules for Sam's, the rest of this silliness is about Respect.
You are correct, it is about respect. Respect for the ethics and tradition at Sam's Throne. No rap bolting.
Yankee Wrote:
In reply to: So, you guys that want to do those existing FA lines from the ground up get busy, because my Arkansas Cronies(man, this is so cool I have my very on Cronies) will probably be coming down to rap bolt those lines
"Existing FA lines?" I would hope that you meant new and unclimbed lines, since one of the routes in question is an established, existing traditional lead done in the '80s. It is an unfortunate image to behold; your cronies being short-changed into thinking that they should rap bolt at Sam's. Carelessly drilling holes in the rock, knowing that the bolts will be removed exposes a blatant disregard, disrespect and general ignorance of the environment, local climbers and traditional climbing style. Rap bolting at Sam's will not be tolerated.
And to answer your off the subject question about FA's...Once the FA has been established, assuming it was done per local ethics, any ascent thereafter, be it in better style or not, is just another ascent of the already established line, and should not be altered in any way, except at a time that any fixed anchor need replacement.
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yankee
May 11, 2006, 3:14 PM
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In reply to: You are correct, it is about respect. Respect for the ethics and tradition at Sam's Throne. No rap bolting.
J-Tree, Yosemite, Seneca Rocks, City of Rocks, Red Rocks, etc...
Just wondering all these places I mentioned were all ground up on lead ethical areas, they so called set the stage for rest of climbing community. Now, all these areas have Rap bolted lines.
Like I said earlier, its the people with the most time and energy that make the rules. Like it or not it just the way it is, I have seen it many of times.
In reply to: Existing FA lines?" I would hope that you meant new and unclimbed lines,
I am done playing the Devils Advocate, the weather is perfect out today, one of the few last days this spring.
I do not care what happens at Sam's( I know you guys do). I was just playing out the other side of the spectrum.
You guys have so much built up hate, its just Rock Climbing!! It's just a GAME, I mean a recreational activity!
Anyway, I am going to take my Cronies to the Day Care here in Jasper and take candy from babies.
See ya on the sharp end of the Rope!
Schmick
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therealbovine
May 15, 2006, 2:13 PM
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I love this one...
In reply to: Yes, it makes "sense" to rap bolt these lines, but the historic challenge of ground up ascents is not supposed to make "sense"- it's ludicrous, it's insanity, it's archaic. But that is what makes it so special; so unique, and something worth fighting for. It's a big state. This is one crag. The bolts have already been removed. |
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pdub329
May 19, 2006, 10:04 PM
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Supporters of the rap bolting at Sams and Mr. French. Your tactics are the wrong choice for Sams, and the wrong attitude for the whole climbing community. Don't bring Sams down to your level, bring yourself up to it. Respect the value of the efforts made before you even laid eyes on Ark. I have heard that there has been some threatening conversations over the phone, and on the net about all of this. Strange it always has to go that far. Anyways, I will be down there climbing in the next week or so. So if anyone wants an exciting debate about ethics feel free to talk to me in person while visiting Sams.
Patrick
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briarpatch
May 23, 2006, 2:41 AM
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Aw, don't tell me this thing is over already. I just got around to reading all this crap and now everyone is done. Figures...man I had some real edgy zingers to get tempers flairing.
Royal Robbins had a good comment that might apply to this debate. It was something like "sport and traditional climbing both have their place, and it's rarely at the same area."
I've also heard "You can't stop THE CHOP!" Boy did that get out of hand.
I'm not advocating a massive chop-a-thon and I'm not saying "release the hounds" for rap-bolting. Just that Sam's has had a certain ethic for so long and I'm pretty sure it will stay that way.
-an entirely different Chris
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gumbee
May 30, 2006, 6:23 PM
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YOU CANT STOP THE HUSTLE!
KRIS FRENCH
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therealbovine
Jun 2, 2006, 9:16 PM
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Kris French Wrote:
In reply to: YOU CANT STOP THE HUSTLE! KRIS FRENCH
hus·tle
1. To obtain something by deceitful or illicit means; practice theft or swindling.
2. To misrepresent ones ability in order to deceive someone, especially in gambling.
3. To solicit customers. Used of a pimp or prostitute.
Well Kris, It looks like your first post in which you attempt to explain your actions of rap bolting and retro bolting of established lines is right on. Do you think that after all this time we would expect anything more from you? Degrading your intelligence (or lack thereof) with wanna-be gangsta slang just pushes any form of legitimacy out of whatever you have to say. Sorry, but your hustle is nothing more than a fast road to 'chipping holes' in the rock and loosing more hardware to the long-time locals...not to mention any respect that you might have gained with an informed response.
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