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naw
Apr 27, 2006, 4:40 AM
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In reply to: well.. anything multi pitch would not work that way... and as you pointed out things that have the top not accessible or able to make a top rope anchor on it. at rumney you can't get to the top of most climbs except from a route and the vast majority of the bolted anchors are on the face below the lip.
Well, at least it's confirmed to me now that you're missing the entire point of this discussion. We're not talking about multi-pitch routes, or routes that aren't top accessible, and nobody cares about how much you know about Rumney. The point here is that in a situation where a route already has a top rope on it, to pull that rope and re-lead it is simply contrived difficulty. You're not making the actual act of "climbing" any harder, you're just introducing more technical management into the system.
In reply to: it's a natural act to start at the bottom and climb to the top only having protection when available as opposed to 100% of the time on TR
Here's another brilliant observation. What's natural about a bolted metal hole in a rock? The point is that it's completely UNnatural...you've chosen arbitrary points at which to attach bombproof protection ahead of time. There is no difference, ethically, between this and top-roping. Maybe if you'd get over yourself for 10 seconds you'd see the comparison.
In reply to: Falling is part of sport climbing if you push yourself for onsites or redpoint things at or near your limit. that's not everyones goal but when it is then falling on the bolts
Why is falling a part of sport climbing? Because it's considered to be safe. Once again, there is no difference here between sport-leading and toproping, besides the contrived difficulty of clipping the rope as you climb.
You sound to me like some kid who's enamored with the idea of leading and willing to defend it to the death. Maybe one day, with practice and heartfelt desire, you too can be one of the hardmen you so obviously deify.
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dudemanbu
Apr 27, 2006, 4:54 AM
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I'm not ken. Not even close. I don't agree with what he's done, because it shows a total disrespect for the first ascensionists. But that's neither here nor there.
I like to lead. I like the movements involved with harder climbing, and I like not haivng to go through the pain in the ass that is setting up a top rope. I started out as a sport climber, and in my first year of leading got to about 5.10 there.
There at least a dozen climbs here in connecticut that i would love to see someone throw bolts onto in the 5.10-5.12 range, simply because they'd be so much more exciting as leads. There's just something different about leading... it feels so much more independent.
Because i like leading, and i like difficult climbing, here in connecticut my only option was to learn to climb trad. Right now i've onsighed 9+ (but only once), and i'm limited to pg and g rated climbs. As a result there is a relatively limited number of climbs that are available for me to lead here that have both quality gear and quality moves. If sport existed in connecticut, i'd have many more options.
It's really a shame in my opinion that some of the harder lines aren't bolted, but I certainly won't be the one that does the bolting. I don't even really know why i wrote this. I guess what i'm saying is that safety is important, and ethics are kind of convoluted. Safety should take first place, fun second place, and ethics (that don't have to do with maintaining a clean, safe crag) a distant last.
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jakedatc
Apr 27, 2006, 5:06 AM
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In reply to: but go out to any sport crag and find me a route that has bolts only where traditional protection is non-existent.
come on up.. bring your rack.. it'll just weigh you down.
have at this one... it's a nice moderate 13d
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=18951
hmm 14c pretty blank.. that square spot above his foot is a sloper so dont give me any of that #6 camelot bs
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=39396
oop what we got here.. the whole issue in this thread
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=39550
i hardly think that pro was an after thought.. the guys still used ropes, slung natural pro.. pounded in pitons..
In reply to: What, specifically, is harder? The rope management? The mental aspect? If you want a greater physical challenge, go get on a harder climb.
see my other post.. mentally harder.. physically.. you can't top rope everything.. you cant top route multi pitch either.. get a clue
In reply to: besides a desire for a greater "challenge" (aka ego boost) |
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lichenmuncher
Apr 27, 2006, 2:15 PM
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rc.com bye bye
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fracture
Apr 27, 2006, 2:58 PM
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In reply to: Don't take this to mean that I never lead anything. On the contrary, leading is often far more practical and on some occasions safer than top-roping. However, I don't deceive myself into thinking that rope management has anything to do with the act of climbing.
Right on.
Personally, the only reason I lead anything is convenience and safety. But, in my experience, these reasons are good enough to make me lead on the vast majority of sport routes I have climbed. Unlike Jake, I don't think leading is harder---in my experience, except in strange cases, leading some portion of the route (with some portion stick clipped) is generally the best (i.e. easiest) strategy.
It is funny how so many sport clippers try to convince themselves that toproping is easier, when really, they usually only think it is easier because they are irrationally scared of safe lead falls. :wink:
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fracture
Apr 27, 2006, 3:05 PM
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In reply to: All I'm trying to point out is that leading a sport route, simply for the act of leading it, is essentially a ridiculous idea anyway and shouldn't be taken so seriously to begin with.
I couldn't agree with you more, naw.
But I should point out (primarily because of other posts) that the bolts for lead still have a purpose even though sport leading is not really any better style than toproping (or stick-clipping). Those bolts make it easier to practice moves on overhung or traversing routes (because you don't swing away from the section you're trying), and allow you to climb without hiking around to the top multiple times (trampling vegitation, etc). Many overhanging routes would be significantly less safe on toprope (unless you put the bolts in anyway to allow for use as directionals).
Two efficient sport climbers can do 4-5 warmup routes in an hour---there's no way in hell they'd be able to do that if they had to do all sorts of bullshit to set topropes for each one.
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scrapper
Apr 27, 2006, 8:35 PM
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In reply to: The point here is that leading/redpointing/onsighting is nothing but an ego game for people to play with themselves and each other.
You can call that an ego game, but it's possible to have a lot of fun exploring your personal movement potential without ever convincing yourself that you are some kind of amazing specimen of climbing ability. In any case, there's nothing wrong with being self-centered, if your pursuits don't negatively affect others.
The most selfless people in the climbing community are probably the (sport) route and crag developers, but somehow they end up taking a lot of guff from trad guerillas and domineering FAs who's self-centered pursuits do negatively affect others.
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crimpandgo
Apr 27, 2006, 8:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Don't take this to mean that I never lead anything. On the contrary, leading is often far more practical and on some occasions safer than top-roping. However, I don't deceive myself into thinking that rope management has anything to do with the act of climbing. Right on. Personally, the only reason I lead anything is convenience and safety. But, in my experience, these reasons are good enough to make me lead on the vast majority of sport routes I have climbed. Unlike Jake, I don't think leading is harder---in my experience, except in strange cases, leading some portion of the route (with some portion stick clipped) is generally the best (i.e. easiest) strategy. It is funny how so many sport clippers try to convince themselves that toproping is easier, when really, they usually only think it is easier because they are irrationally scared of safe lead falls. :wink:
hmmm,
then explain to me why I am always full of hesitation and have the jitters before getting on lead and I never do do before getting on toprope.
Leading is harder. You have a far greater chance of falling while clipping than you do no clipping. and when you fall you have a far greater chance of getting hurt.
The mental aspects are far more strenuous on lead as well.
If this was not the case why do all the "pros' lead and not just top rope?
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scrapper
Apr 27, 2006, 9:01 PM
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In reply to: then explain to me why I am always full of hesitation and have the jitters before getting on lead and I never do do before getting on toprope.
In reply to: Leading is harder.
In reply to: You have a far greater chance of falling while clipping than you do no clipping.
In reply to: and when you fall you have a far greater chance of getting hurt.
In reply to: The mental aspects are far more strenuous on lead as well.
In reply to: If this was not the case why do all the "pros' lead and not just top rope? |
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jakedatc
Apr 27, 2006, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: in my experience, except in strange cases, leading some portion of the route (with some portion stick clipped) is generally the best (i.e. easiest) strategy.
I mean physically and mentally. top rope has no rope drag/weight, extra time pulling up rope and clipping.. etc.
I do agree that sometimes leading is the easiest way to get ON a route.. like legistically the time setting up a TR and all that blah blah. yes leading is much Faster.. and yes you can lead alot more routes faster than you can TR them. we're talking about two different things though.
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blumsky_climbs_rox
Apr 29, 2006, 6:59 AM
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In reply to: Quote: then explain to me why I am always full of hesitation and have the jitters before getting on lead and I never do do before getting on toprope. Because you are an inexperienced sport climber
i know plenty of 'experienced sport climbers' who get nervous before leading sport. if you watch the original 'dosage', sharma talks about getting nervous taking falls on Realisation. They weren't near ground falls or anything, and it is obviously a severely overhung problem. So I don't really see where inexperience comes in here, it is human, instinctual self preservation-in the back of our mind, a little voice will always tell us falling is bad.
Also, leading is easier in overhanging terrain? Sure, except for all the spots where you have to stop, hang from one hand, and clip the draw. You can call it an ego game all you want, but that seems awfully narrow minded to me. Yeah, sport is contrived, but the ethic for all disciplines of climbing is Ground Up. That's just the way it is. This argument wouldnt even have occured if clipping 2/3 of a route then calling it a redpoint was the usual occurance, even among 'elite climbers'.
However I do not think any opinions are going to be changed in this thread.
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fracture
Apr 29, 2006, 2:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Quote: then explain to me why I am always full of hesitation and have the jitters before getting on lead and I never do do before getting on toprope. Because you are an inexperienced sport climber i know plenty of 'experienced sport climbers' who get nervous before leading sport. if you watch the original 'dosage', sharma talks about getting nervous taking falls on Realisation. They weren't near ground falls or anything, and it is obviously a severely overhung problem.
You cannot climb 9a+ if you are full of hesitation.
All sport climbers get nervous about a fall sometimes. Little things you aren't used to can send you outside of your comfort zone---anything from rock angle to the type of hold or body position you are using, etc. Good climbers know how to work through these situations (practice falls, etc) so they can get back to focusing on the climbing. Sharma obviously did so.
The more experienced you are, the larger your comfort zone likely is. Typical, short (~10ft) sport climbing falls don't cause any fear for most people who have been leading sport climbs for a while.
In reply to: Also, leading is easier in overhanging terrain? Sure, except for all the spots where you have to stop, hang from one hand, and clip the draw.
Often these spots are in places where you would stop, hang from one hand, and shake out, anyway.
In my experience, hard clips are very unusual---and I climb in a very bouldery area. You can almost always avoid the potentially hard ones by skipping them, clipping from a smarter position (sometimes this means extending the draw), or stick-clipping past it.
In reply to: Yeah, sport is contrived, but the ethic for all disciplines of climbing is Ground Up.
This is a funnier sentence than you possibly realize....
In reply to: This argument wouldnt even have occured if clipping 2/3 of a route then calling it a redpoint was the usual occurance, even among 'elite climbers'.
Actually, it is a relatively common occurance among elite climbers....
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styndall
Apr 29, 2006, 2:47 PM
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In reply to: Yeah, sport is contrived, but the ethic for all disciplines of climbing is Ground Up. That's just the way it is.
Now that is just silly. The thing that most defined sport climbing is its Top Down method of placing bolts, as opposed to the on-lead, ground up method used in trad climbing.
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blumsky_climbs_rox
Apr 29, 2006, 6:25 PM
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the bolts are only places that way in order for the route to be ascended from the ground up. contrived, but that's the way it is.
also, i live in North Carolina, where clips are often in really crap spots.
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styndall
Apr 29, 2006, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: the bolts are only places that way in order for the route to be ascended from the ground up. contrived, but that's the way it is. also, i live in North Carolina, where clips are often in really crap spots.
Good grief.
When you top rope a route, you start at the ground and climb up. It's the same.
You're welcome to add difficulty any way you like, don't don't expect anyone to care about your greasepoint when you rub yourself with crisco and climb some route.
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cactusedd
Apr 29, 2006, 8:45 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: the bolts are only places that way in order for the route to be ascended from the ground up. contrived, but that's the way it is. also, i live in North Carolina, where clips are often in really crap spots. You're welcome to add difficulty any way you like, don't don't expect anyone to care about your greasepoint when you rub yourself with crisco and climb some route.
LOL, greasepoint that's awesome :lol: :lol: :lol:
On a more serious note, interesting thread. Some observations:
It seems to me that there seems to be a simple conflict of views at the heart of all these threads. The question is then, why do we as climbers climb? Is it simply because it's there or is to lead a route from the ground up in as pure and clean a style as possible And therein come the divisions;
If you're a sport climber than are you not more concerned with technical difficulty and the simple act of moving over rock? I would posit that the whole intent of Alan Watts and Christian Griffith and others who served to paved the way for modern (American) sport climbing as we know it was to open routes that could not previously be ascended in a safe manner. And in doing so, they allowed the sport to diversify and spread to previously untouched crags such as Rumney.
On the other hand, you have the purists; the trad climbers and those who believe that the only way to truly experience the act of climbing is to ascend a route from the ground up in as pure and uninvasive a style as possible. Bolts are to be viewed as a necessary evil. Hence the common place nature of 80-foot runouts at places like Stone Mountain, North Carolina and on Snake Dike in Yosemite. Or you can ascribe to the Headpointing antics of the British.
The bottom line is you either clip bolts or you don't. Either way it's all about ascending rock. Whether you're toproping, onsighting, redpointing, pinkpointing, headpointing, or whatever it's all the same. You start at the base and climb to the top. And what Joe S*%(head climbs and the style he does it in is only between him and whatever he (or she) believes.
Regards,
Edd
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jakedatc
Apr 29, 2006, 11:21 PM
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In reply to: the bolts are only places that way in order for the route to be ascended from the ground up. contrived, but that's the way it is. also, i live in North Carolina, where clips are often in really crap spots.
Well i climb at Rumney and can tell you that in general the routes are not well protected traditionally. I have seen the process in which the bolters i know go through to put up a line of bolts to protect a climb. They find a line.. clean lichen, dirt, loose rock off... top rope it and mark where good clipping stances will be.. then come back and drill the holes and glue in the bolts. Then redpoint it on lead for the FA. (they bolt on rappel or rope solo but i don't really consider this the evil type of rap bolting that some people talk about.. they don't just throw a straight plumb line of bolts every 10 feet, and definitely not grid bolted)
sounds like where you are has inexperienced bolters who put bolts wherever they feel.. that shouldn't be a good judge of how good sport climbing is done.
In reply to: And in doing so, they allowed the sport to diversify and spread to previously untouched crags such as Rumney.
Yep, good example, Armed and dangerous and off my medication.. used to traverse left at the roof to an anchor on the face.. with bolts it fires up the roof and has now been extended 3 more bolts above the "new" anchor to continue the line to a more logical top (doesnt change the grade imo just adds more fun overhang moves)
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tonloc
Apr 30, 2006, 12:56 AM
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jake you seem to like rumney very very much...and about you signature, one can never have too much power, just ask chuck norris
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jakedatc
Apr 30, 2006, 2:29 AM
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tonloc, It was basically my home away from home for a whole year and love the rock there.(and still would be if i didnt move to RI) It is my main exposure to sport climbing (lions head ontario being the only other so far)
i just don't understand people talking shit about climbers and routes that they have never been near.. I could start up a thread about pffft Priest Draw roofs all look v2- and are all fucking jug hauls.. but my only exposure is through pictures and Rampage i mean sharma and obe float them like nothing so they have to be cake right? and why do they even need pads.. they are 4 feet off the ground. And BVB's done them all with one hand holding his scotch... all back in da day
and chuck norris will get trapped forever under a boulder if he pulls too hard.. he wont die.. but he will trap insects and small rodents to keep him alive while he waits for errosion to remove the boulder. then go on a revenge mission to grind up any boulder like the one that trapped him with his bare hands.. for real
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tonloc
Apr 30, 2006, 3:03 AM
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word... i love rumney its my favorite i reside in the great maine...and no boulders would be safe from chuck
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fluxus
May 1, 2006, 8:52 PM
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In reply to: Our simple terms aren't simple. People will argue the meanings of: Onsight Flash Send Redpoint Clean The problem is that our simple terminology isn't accurate enough to convey the information about climbs that climbers seem to want.
The defs. of these terms are simple, easy, very accurate, reasonable and broadly agreed upon. The ascent of the fly in question was a Top Rope ascent. period. There is nothing wrong with that. Folks can debate what they think top roping the fly means all they want, but this debate does not change the methodology used by the climber to ascend the route.
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caughtinside
May 1, 2006, 9:40 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Our simple terms aren't simple. People will argue the meanings of: Onsight Flash Send Redpoint Clean The problem is that our simple terminology isn't accurate enough to convey the information about climbs that climbers seem to want. The defs. of these terms are simple, easy, very accurate, reasonable and broadly agreed upon. The ascent of the fly in question was a Top Rope ascent. period. There is nothing wrong with that. Folks can debate what they think top roping the fly means all they want, but this debate does not change the methodology used by the climber to ascend the route.
I wish I could agree with you fluxus. Maybe its just an RC.com thing.
How much beta before your onsight is spoiled?
Some folks here would argue you didn't send if you've stick clipped 2 bolts of a 10 bolt route.
And you'll still find people who will call a redpoint a pinkpoint if the draws are hung... at least on this site.
Funny though, I never get into these discussions when I'm actually talking with climbers...
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jakedatc
May 1, 2006, 9:46 PM
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Define a Top Rope ascent. he HIT the ground every time he fell.
not sure how many times you've hit the ground top roping but i certainly haven't. do your belayers always give you 5+ feet of slack?
having low crux's stick clipped is nothing new as described multiple times in this thread. just because the end of the route past the 2nd draw is like 5.10 doesn't change the fact that he was still going up the lead side of the rope and not attached to the anchor.
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fluxus
May 1, 2006, 11:03 PM
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In reply to: I wish I could agree with you fluxus. Maybe its just an RC.com thing. How much beta before your onsight is spoiled? Some folks here would argue you didn't send if you've stick clipped 2 bolts of a 10 bolt route. And you'll still find people who will call a redpoint a pinkpoint if the draws are hung... at least on this site. Funny though, I never get into these discussions when I'm actually talking with climbers...
here is how I would break it down.
On-sight= climbing a route first try without falling or using aid, and with no prior knowledge of the route what so ever.
flash= climbing a route first try, but the climber may have gained information about the route before or during (in the form of running beta) the ascent.
red point= climbing a route from the ground to the top without falling or using aid, after spending some time on previous attempts learning or rehearsing the route. On a red point the quick draws are placed by the climber as they go.
Pink point= same thing as a red point but with the draws already hanging.
Now, there needs to be a reality check.
1) the distinction between a red point and a pink point is for all practical purposes gone these days. So red point is used to cover both "true" red points and pink points.
2) A climber may need (or feel the need to) to give additional information in some cases. For example, in the case of a flash, they may have seen another climber do just the start of the route. This is not an on-sight, Its clearly a flash with very little beta, and the climber may want to share the fact that they had very little knowledge of the route before sending it first try. "dude, I did so great on that route, I did see some beta for the opening but I knew nothing about the route above the 3rd draw."
The catagories themselves are rather stable, there is no such thing as an on-sight with beta, that's always a flash.
Pre-Clipping the first bolt or two on a "red Point" is becoming more common these days, and responsible climbers should be open about this practice, unless they clip these bolts under their own power and then climb back down to the ground under their own power, that has always been considered fair game. What climbers tend to do now, is to stick clip and call it good. Naturally, if there is a hard or dangerous move at the bottom a stick clip may be a good idea, and there is nothing wrong with saying "I stick clipped the first bolt for the red point because the clip is hard and the landing is bad."
or
"The start of the route was so hard that I didn't want to stop and waste time clipping so I climbed up, clipped the first two and then down climbed. I rested a few minutes and sent!"
or
"You know, I did it with the first pre-clipped because I was little nervous about the getting the red point. In hind sight, I was just being lazy."
So I think the established catagories work pretty well when the context is provided. Its when we try to make claims about an ascent without providing the context that things get sticky and people want to call a flash an on-sight or a top rope a red point.
In the case of the fly the best way to say it is that he top ropped all the hard climbing and then led the 5.10 to the chains. That's a perfectly accurate description of the ascent.
What is strange about this thread is that for all practical purposes a few folks were trying to call a TR a red point. I think its an important distinction because stopping to clip on the Fly has got to be a lot harder than not stopping to clip.
If when I red pointed Dead Souls (4 bolts 5.13d/14a) I had stick clipped up to the fourth bolt and called it a red point I would have been the laughing stock of Salt Lake! 1) because the clips are really hard on that route and 2) because all the hard climbing is getting up to the 4th bolt. Leading the 5.11 would be far less significant than top roping the crux.
As a general rule of thumb, you'll get in trouble when giving the climber more credit than is deserved, such as calling a send of the fly with 3 bolts clipped a red point; but won't get in trouble if the description give "less" credit than some think is deserved such as calling a first try send a flash, even though the climber only had beta for a couple of moves.
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jakedatc
May 1, 2006, 11:46 PM
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In reply to: there is nothing wrong with saying "I stick clipped the first bolt for the red point because the clip is hard and the landing is bad."
So you've proven my point. 2 draws were preclipped to prevent Tony from hitting a boulder and then falling off the boulder even farther if he fell (which he did.. and still hit the boulder. just didn't take the extra ride to the ground beneath the start.
In reply to: stopping to clip on the Fly has got to be a lot harder than not stopping to clip.
then why does everyone consider Kehl's ascent better? he wasnt weighted down with harness, rope, 2 draws, and didnt have to stop to clip. seems easier eh? he called it v13.. which is around 13d
In reply to: If when I red pointed Dead Souls
In reply to: Funny though, I never get into these discussions when I'm actually talking with climbers... |
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