|
duncan_s
May 7, 2006, 8:59 PM
Post #26 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 90
|
In reply to: Ratings have nothing to do with how well it's protected. Once you have climbed slab and are 35-40 feet above your last piece, then you will know. Yeah, it's only 5.4, but what if you do fall? You....will......get f'ed....up.
I said I was using a conversion table - British trad grades take protection into account, unlike French and it appears American.
I started a thread on the subject and was told that you did a rating system similar to your films that some of your guidebooks used an extra bit.
Anyhow, it is not hard to choose climbs that can be protected with only passive pro. In the UK most climbs below E3/E4 would have been done on passive, so the fact you can't get up a Severe without cams does not mean you need cam, it just means your shit. :D
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
May 8, 2006, 12:26 AM
Post #27 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
In reply to: In reply to: All passive gear would be a stupid choice unless you tailor the climbs such that they will go safely on passive only. what????? any climb that has been established for more than 20 years or so, being most of them, can be done safely without CAMS or any active pro. That would be garunteed true because, CAMS didn't even exist until about 20 years ago.
This is utter nonsense. Up until the late sixties, climbs in the US, and most other places, were protected with pitons. Nuts showed up on the scene in the US in the late sixties, began to be used by many climbers in the early seventies, and only were shaped in the way they are today in the mid-seventies. The first cams appeared in 1978. So in the US, there was only, what, eight to ten years - when pitons were frowned on, and friends were not yet available. So your argument only holds true of climbs done by *some* people from say 1972 to 1980.
Or are you suggesting this guy send his students out with hammers?
In reply to: Learned to lead without any active, and did so for many leads. Even today, although I have cams, I don't use them anywhere near as often as nuts, hexes, tricams. I feel that this is the best way to teach leading, scout good routes that you know passive can be well placed and go to town., Placing gear on TR with a dummy rope below is a good idea too.
Yes, plenty of routes can be done safely and cleanly with all-passive gear. And plenty can't.
As for mock-leading (leading on TR) at best it's a waste of time, and at worst, it's counter-productive for the student.
There's been plenty of good advice on this thread.
1 - lots of ground-school. Make sure all your students can place all the gear on their racks well, understand the direction of pull, can rig a safe anchor, understand sling-lengths, and can do all the above with some efficiency while safely on the ground. Do not let anyone leave the ground on lead until they can unload their entire rack into cracks, with all the pieces being at least a 6 or 7 out of 10.
2 - What BEC said - push grades, fear, or technical - no more than one at a time when you're starting out.
3 - Once they're out on lead, they should place tons of gear. They should sew up their climbs. Teaches them to find the stances and use them, and the more gear they place, the faster they'll learn. Anyway, since their gear may be junk, better to have a lot of it. Of course it'll take them a long time to lead each pitch. C'est la vie.
4 - Passive gear first.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
duncan_s
May 8, 2006, 12:48 AM
Post #28 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 90
|
In reply to: As for mock-leading (leading on TR) at best it's a waste of time, and at worst, it's counter-productive for the student. GO
Out of intrest why do you think this? Its in a few of the instructional texts I have and used in succesfully to teach a few people need just a bit more confidence. Like I said in my earlier post its good to help teach lead belaying as well.
That said system I like now is set up a fixed rope next to their climb and setup a gri-gri and a rope man to go up/down the rope with a sling attached you which you can pass to them if they start looking scared.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
May 8, 2006, 1:02 AM
Post #29 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
To put it bluntly, being scared is one of the factors you simply must learn to deal with while being on the sharp end. If the new leader is too scared, then they either aren't ready, or they're on something too hard for them.
Mock leading is a way for guides to deal with their liability issues while fooling their clients into believing they're learning to be leaders. I've yet to meet anyone for whom mock-leading was a major component of their learning to lead, who wound up a solid leader. I've known several people who took leading classes that involved a good deal of mock leading, and they never became real leaders. I don't really know why, but I suspect it's because deep down inside, they believed that they *should* be capable of leading those 5.9s they mock led. So leading 5.5 felt stupid, and leading 5.8 felt petrifying.
Much better to work through the grades. Learn to lead by leading.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
duncan_s
May 8, 2006, 1:11 AM
Post #30 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 90
|
I was thinking like 1 or 2 as the final confidence boost before the real lead on the day and keeping the top rope very slack. Going all the way to 5.9 mock leading would be pointless.
|
|
|
|
|
thegreytradster
May 8, 2006, 1:50 AM
Post #31 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2003
Posts: 2151
|
There's been a lot of good advice, (and some not so good) on the technical teaching aspects. There are other more important considerations though.
"Traditional" climbing is a "blood sport", to use Hemingway's differentiation between "sport" and "games" The Gym and sport climbing are "games". "Traditional" climbing and alpinisim fit Hemingway's definition of "sport". Granted with modern gear there's the tendency towards the "progressive top rope". (That's false security as proved by several recent episodes at Jtree and elsewhere. ) and the illusion that modern gear somehow eliminates the potential of fatal or life altering consequences.
One on one instruction (apprenticeship) is the way to go, and if they aren't badgering you interminably to lead, they probably aren't ready.
Just make sure your student(s) are really ready.
In reply to: There are only three true sports, auto racing, bull fighting and mountain climbing, all others are just games |
|
|
|
|
renohandjams
May 8, 2006, 8:41 PM
Post #32 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616
|
I'll be teaching a couple of my friends this summer, I thought I would start them off on something fairly easy (so they can really focus on their placements) and put them on a top rope with slack and have them drag a second rope up as if they were leading. That way they really are leading, they can't rest on the rope, and then if they really screw up at least nothing serious happens the first couple of times.
Also, I think it is important (if possible) to maybe go over each placement they did after the climb with them beside you, and go over the good and bad of each one. I would also make them clean everything the place since that is a quick way to learn to not bury your placements.
Trust:making them rest on their placements helps, but until they start falling on them think it is hard to really build that trust.
I think the top rope back up along with a lead rope is a smart start.
|
|
|
|
|
charley
May 8, 2006, 9:08 PM
Post #33 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 13, 2002
Posts: 6627
|
I have led while also on top rope and it ain't the same.
|
|
|
|
|
catbird_seat
May 9, 2006, 12:00 AM
Post #35 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 7, 2004
Posts: 425
|
In reply to: In reply to: I think the top rope back up along with a lead rope is a smart start. I disagree, and I've stated my reasons. Please explain what it accomplishes that ground-school or easy leads does not, and also why it doesn't fool people into thinking they actually know anything about leading. GO
Of course, the next step is a real lead. Now you add the mental component. There is nothing that can replace the real lead. The student should already be familiar with the route they are leading and have placed gear on it before. No on sights!
|
|
|
|
|
michael_c
May 9, 2006, 1:59 AM
Post #36 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2005
Posts: 29
|
The way I learned was by following a lot of routes on 2nd before even going near real leading. I did "lead" a scramble on a multi pitch very early on in my "career" with another person at the top to help me with the anchor but I wouldn't of called that a real lead, anyway back onto topic.
Seconding many climbs not only gets you used to the style of climbing eg. the different movements, climbing with the extra weight of a rack and heck cleaning gear on 2nd teaches you just as much to find good stances and rests, unless your totally lazy and rest on the rope every time you clean a piece.
I found being able to lead sport comfortably helped a lot with the head aspect, I read a lot of books when I could and played around with the gear and understood how it worked before even leading.
I would think mock leading would just be a waste also, because you might be placing gear and getting used to placements, but you can do that on the ground and if you can't find good rests/stances on very easy climbs that you would start learning to trad lead on, your not ready to be leading I believe.
|
|
|
|
|
renohandjams
May 9, 2006, 2:33 AM
Post #37 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616
|
In reply to: No on sights!
About the top rope step, I think it is an extra step in the process to smooth the transition. Of course afterwards a real lead is very different than having a top rope, but for someone who has never done it why take any more risk than you have to. Given enough slack, even with a top rope and 2 grades below your first trad lead can still be very nerve racking.
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
May 9, 2006, 2:57 AM
Post #38 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
In reply to: Here's your answer. It teaches one how to find good rest stances from which to place gear. On a very easy route, the new leader doesn't have to do that. They can place gear any place they like without pumping out. On top rope, on a route that is about 2 grades below the hardest that they are capable of, they are putting it all together.
Making sure you can do a climb without pumping out is not what you should be teaching a new leader. How to competently place gear is. Leading over easy ground allows them the chance to place gear without worrying so much about the climbing, yet still makes them responsible for their own safety. That in combination with ground school, and especially, following an EXPERIENCED leader will do more for them then learning how not to pump out when they don't even know how to place gear. I am with Gabe on this one. I feel a mock lead, at best, is a waste of time.
Josh
|
|
|
|
|
catbird_seat
May 9, 2006, 5:42 AM
Post #40 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 7, 2004
Posts: 425
|
Trad routes easier than 5.6 are rare as hen's teeth in the state of Washington.
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
May 9, 2006, 12:59 PM
Post #42 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
|
Perhaps there is not a one-size-fits-all kinda answer. I'd answer in a vague manner: the student needs to be heavily involved in deciding when she is ready; the mentor too. Some folks ease into it with lots of baby steps and others not so many. Yes to a thorough approach.
Pro placements on mock lead feel closer to the real thing than pro placements on the ground anyway. :wink:
Bill L.
|
|
|
|
|
catbird_seat
May 9, 2006, 6:30 PM
Post #43 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 7, 2004
Posts: 425
|
I might as well add that a friend of mine has just put up two new beginner trad routes in an area that already has several beginner sport routes. There are now 4 routes in that area that are 5.2-5.6.
There have always been several good beginner crags right on the road, but they are so popular with families with kids that we've been increasingly reluctant to monopolize those areas for our classes.
The area of which I speak is only a 20 minute walk from the road.
|
|
|
|
|
mtnbkrxtrordnair
May 9, 2006, 7:30 PM
Post #44 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 267
|
Some of the best advice for a new trad leader from rgold (Richard Goldstone) on this site follows. It's a real gem and if I were a new trad leader, I would read it as a reminder before every lead:
The most important principle for using trad protection, especiallly but not exclusively if you are just learning, is redundancy. The idea is to develop a system you trust while maintaining a healthy scepticism about the reliability of any one piece. Try not to put yourself in the position of having a single piece, no matter how "bombproof," between you and disaster.
Placing more than gear than seems to be essential requires discipline and endurance, marks of a good trad climber. Failing safely is a better longevity option than betting the farm on a single piece.
Nonetheless, all climbing to some extent, but trad climbing intrinsically, involves risk. A lot of climbs have places you better not fall from, and this is part of the essence of trad climbing---performing in a cool and controlled manner when confronting a risky situation. Neutralizing danger, not just by protection skills, but also by climbing skills, is part of the game. (Unaulterated difficulty unencumbered by concerns of mortality is the province of sport climbing.)
Arguments about whether or not falling is a good idea always have these provisions: "if the gear is bomber, go for it," which is fair enough, but such pronouncements avoid the real problem by defining it out of existence. Many accidents happen when the bomber gear turns out not to be bomber. The climber (1) misjudged the pro (something that is quite possible for experts, let alone beginners), (2) failed to build sufficient redundancy into the system, and then (3) misjudged their ability and went for it in a situation when they were not well protected.
As for judging pro, I concur with the posters who recommend aid climbing. Redundancy is a state of mind combined with the will to carry it out. The most difficult issue is how to climb without falling when falling is a bad idea. (For example, if there is one piece between you and the ground and you can't back it up, then falling is a bad idea.) Here I think modern trends can inculcate bad habits. Gym climbing, sport climbing, and bouldering all emphasize moving up in the most marginal of situations. There is a risk of developing a tunnel-vision mentality that, first of all, accepts marginal moves even though the consequences of failure are catastrophic, perhaps not even noticing that the climber has gone from control to high risk status, and secondly, that blinds the climber to both the need and the opportunity to climb down to rest, regroup, and yes, in some cases, to retreat. Mental discipline is the primary tool for avoiding these situations, but this discipline is not something acquired in the gym or on sport climbs.
Here are some exercises that may be of some use:
(1) When climbing in the gym or on sport routes, try to be conscious of how marginal you are. (This does not mean reducing the difficulty level, just striving for heightened awareness.) From a trad perspective, falling may be ok, but an unexpected fall is not good. Know when you are on the edge.
(2) A lot of falls on steep ground happen when the leader runs out of gas. Try to develop a sense of your "half-way point," because this is one of the moments when you have to decide whether to move up or down. For example, a gym exercise is to select a challenging route and then see how high on it you can get and still climb all the way back down without falling.
(3) Develop the mental habit of filing away "retreat data." This can make the difference between stepping down and falling. (For example, when you step over a small roof, the holds underneath disappear. Did you make a mental note of features above the roof that will help you locate the holds underneath?)
(4) Don't neglect the building of a base of climbing below your limit, climbing in which you are relatively comfortable but are also frequently in the "must not fall" zone. A steady diet of well-protected hard climbing at or near your limit, while essential for raising your climbing level, may shortchange you on control and calmness when things get dicey, as they will, sooner or later...
|
|
|
|
|
sketch
May 10, 2006, 5:30 PM
Post #45 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2006
Posts: 32
|
Here's my two cents on trad climbing. Background: I've been trad climbing for 11 years. I've redpointed 5.11c trad and taught a bunch of people to climb trad, some of whom now have full-page pictures in guidebooks on 5.11 trad routes. I've learned alto and I'm still learning.
I started out by reading books on how to place gear and not having any personal instruction from experienced climbers. Don't do this. There is so much you can't learn from a book. I'm surprised I'm still alive. I never really knew what I was doing until some excellent climbers took me under their wing and set me straight.
Having said that, here is what I recommend:
1. Find the most experienced trad climber you find and learn from them. Trad climbers and way cooler and more laid back than sport weenies and if you are friendly and show enthusiasm, you'll probably find one to help you out. Ideally, look for someone who has been leading at least 5.9 trad solidly for a few years. Being solid on 5.9/5.10 trad means they probably climb efficiently and confidently.
2. Have them show you how to place nuts and cams. I start newbies on these two because they cover 98% of all placements. Forget about hexes unless you only plan to climb 5.6 or less. No one uses hexes on 5.10 trad anymore.
3. Aid climb - buy or make some aiders/etriers and aid climb a bunch of cracks (preferably on top-rope). Aid climbing is great practice in placing gear because you have to place gear every 3-4 feet and you have to weight every piece. You get really good at cleaning gear and seeing what will hold and what won't.
4. Mock lead - climb a route on top-rope but like you are leading. Trail a lead rope below you and place gear just as if you were leading. This is a practice trad lead. Pretend that you are actually leading and make decisions as such. Afterward, have an experienced person follow you up and critique your gear placements.
5. Do a bunch more aid climbs and mock leads until you can place bomber gear in your sleep.
6. Have your experienced mentor find an easy route for your first actual lead. Rehearse the route on top-rope a few times to dial it in.
7. Keep your mind open to always learn new ideas, I'm still learning after 11 years of leading trad.
Hope this helps. These are some key points that I've learned by trial and error throughout the years. Good luck.
|
|
|
|
|
sketch
May 10, 2006, 5:32 PM
Post #46 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2006
Posts: 32
|
Here's my two cents on trad climbing. Background: I've been trad climbing for 11 years. I've redpointed 5.11c trad and taught a bunch of people to climb trad, some of whom now have full-page pictures in guidebooks on 5.11 trad routes. I've learned alto and I'm still learning.
I started out by reading books on how to place gear and not having any personal instruction from experienced climbers. Don't do this. There is so much you can't learn from a book. I'm surprised I'm still alive. I never really knew what I was doing until some excellent climbers took me under their wing and set me straight.
Having said that, here is what I recommend:
1. Find the most experienced trad climber you find and learn from them. Trad climbers and way cooler and more laid back than sport weenies and if you are friendly and show enthusiasm, you'll probably find one to help you out. Ideally, look for someone who has been leading at least 5.9 trad solidly for a few years. Being solid on 5.9/5.10 trad means they probably climb efficiently and confidently.
2. Have them show you how to place nuts and cams. I start newbies on these two because they cover 98% of all placements. Forget about hexes unless you only plan to climb 5.6 or less. No one uses hexes on 5.10 trad anymore.
3. Aid climb - buy or make some aiders/etriers and aid climb a bunch of cracks (preferably on top-rope). Aid climbing is great practice in placing gear because you have to place gear every 3-4 feet and you have to weight every piece. You get really good at cleaning gear and seeing what will hold and what won't.
4. Mock lead - climb a route on top-rope but like you are leading. Trail a lead rope below you and place gear just as if you were leading. This is a practice trad lead. Pretend that you are actually leading and make decisions as such. Afterward, have an experienced person follow you up and critique your gear placements.
5. Do a bunch more aid climbs and mock leads until you can place bomber gear in your sleep.
6. Have your experienced mentor find an easy route for your first actual lead. Rehearse the route on top-rope a few times to dial it in.
7. Keep your mind open to always learn new ideas, I'm still learning after 11 years of leading trad.
Hope this helps. These are some key points that I've learned by trial and error throughout the years. Good luck.
|
|
|
|
|
karlbaba
May 10, 2006, 10:11 PM
Post #47 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 10, 2002
Posts: 1159
|
The post above by Sketch is excellent. I've found all those things to be helpful. If your mentor/guide is experienced, they might have the best individual prescription for you and your strengths and weaknesses.
With the advent of Sport and Gym climbing, I've found it important to explain that you just can't "Go for it" and take the fall in Trad Climbing like you can in sport climbing.
One advantage of the mock lead is that you can do something harder that's actually a challenge. The new leader can feel what it's like to place a piece under stress and clip it. You can have them hang on the piece to test it or simulate in slow motion what the consequences of a fall would be if they ripped. Do all that on super easy terrain doesn't accomplish as much.
I find some folks want to start leading trad a bit too soon in their career but heck, I did too.
Peace
Karl
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
May 11, 2006, 12:48 AM
Post #48 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
I disagree.
Lots of people use hexes on 5.10, or any other climb where they are a good thing to use. That said, the hexes of preference are the 4 largest Wild country rockcentrics, on dyneema. I would not want any others.
The tri-cam is the most versatile piece there is, eveyone should have some and know how to use them.
A beginner should read everything (books not mags) they can get their hands on, and STILL find the best trad climber they can, to learn from. IF you are going to read one book , make it MTFOTH. if two, let the second one be that fasulo self and leader rescue book.
AND I GUARANTTEE that most 20 and 30 year climbers do not know much about the stuff in the fasulo book. Be aware that you should take a course on self and leader rescue from an credentialed instuctor. The book alone is not enough, but it is a start.
Doing a lot of mock leading is pointless.
Be aware that experience does not necessarily mean good experience.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
May 11, 2006, 2:44 AM
Post #49 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
Hmmm...
LEARNING CONCEPT: Well, first off I think teaching trad climbing to groups is an extremely bad idea. As was suggested, you can teach placements and anchors on the ground, but attempting to teach trad leading itself to more than one person is basically a doomed endeavor unless you've got a 1:1 student / teacher ratio on hand. Seconding experienced trad leaders as often as humanly possible is still - by a long, long measure - the single best way to learn to lead trad. Every other way of learning is a distant second and less desirable way to learn.
PASSIVE VS. ACTIVE: A new trad climber needs to learn both. But the proper use of cams is an advanced topic that needs some time devoted to just that. A new trad leader needs to understand the basics around placements, rope path, drag, slinging, and opposition - they apply to both active and passive pro and I do believe they are best taught with passive pro. As far as the comments by Cracklover on the short number of years that relied exclusively on passive pro, that's basically true - but the number, quality, and difficulty of routes put up in this period, particularly in the NE, was and is a stunning accomplishment and statement of what is possible with passive pro. I personally reach for a nut before a cam every time if there is a choice.
MOCK LEADING: You'll hear both sides of this from experienced trad climbers like myself, Karl Baba, and others. I personally think it teaches all the wrong lessons for all the wrong reasons. Learning to deal with the very real consequences of risk is essential to the process - that's why extensive seconding of experienced leaders is the perferred method of learning. If you second long enough you won't need to resort to this exercise in avoidance.
FALLING: New climbers should understand this quickly gets into a matter of personal philosophy for experienced trad climbers. I come from a background of leading roofs and very steep overhangs where falling routinely is unavoidable but generally quite safe as you don't fall against the rock. Falling is very much a part of my knowing I'm out pushing my limits. But that is me, and I'd be a good deal more circumspect if I learned and climbed somewhere else. But falling is an essential aspect of leading and understanding why, when, and how is an integral part of the deal. That said, it is also an advanced topic and not one an inexperienced leader is going to be able to keep in the forefront of their mind on their first leads.
DOWNCLIMBING: The least mentioned and practiced trad skill. Downclimbing is about giving yourself options. Without this ability you limit yourself on lead. This is an activity I would recommend doing anytime you find yourself on a top rope. It also can add an interesting twist to warming up on easy climbs. And if you ever get really bored or looking for real excitement you can try downleading a route for an entirely new perspective on life - but that is also an advanced and very twisted topic...
SELF-RESCUE: This is yet another advanced topic and as a 30 year climber I am actually well familiar with Fasulo's Self-Rescue book and have practiced every technique in it. But Dirt is right, far too few climbers young and old have read it or know how to respond if a bad situation develops on a route.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
May 11, 2006, 3:28 AM
Post #50 of 63
(7972 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
In reply to: As far as the comments by Cracklover on the short number of years that relied exclusively on passive pro, that's basically true - but the number, quality, and difficulty of routes put up in this period, particularly in the NE, was and is a stunning accomplishment and statement of what is possible with passive pro. I personally reach for a nut before a cam every time if there is a choice.
Not that it matters to anyone but me, but just to clarify, I too place way more nuts than cams. I recently did a long pitch of 5.9 in Red Rocks where the main use of the cams on my rack was to provide four inch slings for the nuts I placed (after I ran out of actual slings). They did great - and the weight of the cams kept the nuts from being wiggled around!
I think any learning method that will train the eye of the new leader to see nut placements more quickly is a great thing. I simply object to the notion that anything done before 1985 can be led safely by a new leader on all nuts.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
