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iamthewallress
Aug 13, 2006, 6:15 PM
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I saw a lot of inspirational calender theory and a picture of the highly focused bottom of a gal's MAD ROCK shoe. I couldn't find any links to the new images. I looked at several pages. Can someone help me find it?
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lewisiarediviva
Aug 13, 2006, 7:44 PM
Post #28 of 41
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In reply to: ... but anyone i've talked to who has seen this photographer in action is also creeped out. when i've seen him, he was surrounded by children.
Maybe this attitude is why guys refuse to teach elementary school. I had 3 elementary male teachers. I thought nothing of it.
My kids had a male Kayak teacher. He was surrounded by kids and they loved him. I thought nothing of it.
I also wore make up and string bikinis as a kid. I was growing up- and wanted to act grown up. I thought nothing of it.
When it's hot out, we wear bra tops on the rocks because it is more comfortable. But I'm not spending money on a bra top for my daughter until she needs one. It's to expensive.
Teen age girls are going to climb in makeup and jewelry because they are very socially consciences. It's part of growing up and identity. I'm not going to tell them subdue their personality so that every girl on a rock looks the same.
From the photo's presented- the boys faces look just as "photo shopped" as the girls, just a little less dramatic. Also, the positions of all look like real climbing positions that I've seen my kids do a lot of. I see nothing wrong with the moves!
I remember once a Dad walked into The Outpost with his daughters who were wearing snug tops. All the girls had their arms crossed, reducing the effect of their figures. They also were very self aware and uncomfortable, pulling at their shirts. Not that they were any less covered up then a lot of the women in the restaurant. If my daughter is going to wear something comfortable I'd rather her be comfortable and confident looking. And I DO NOT PERMIT BAGGY CLOTHING OR JEWELRY WHILE CLIMBING. It's against the climbing rules in this family!
I think women, myself included, look at what they envy or despise in other women, young and old. If you are looking at the sexuality and not the moves then your focus on other women climbing may be on the wrong rope. Personally the first thing I noticed in the first photo submitted was the move- my weaknesses in that move is one reason why I'm not climbing better (not that I've been on a rock much this summer either).
I'll tell you that even Mennonite women eye each others dresses pretty intently- and the teenage girls very intently. I see it happen all the time in my community. They are looking at the pattern, the print, and the skill work involved in making the dress. So for those of you who want to cover up your beautiful bodies and restrict your freedom of movement and comfort level on the rock AND your self image- I am here to tell you that even if you succeed, you will not change anything about how we treat ourselves.
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blonde_loves_bolts
Aug 14, 2006, 1:31 AM
Post #29 of 41
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In reply to: Teen age girls are going to climb in makeup and jewelry because they are very socially consciences. It's part of growing up and identity.
What perpetuates this 'socially conscientious' attitude? Is it just 'part of growing up,' or is it learned? Do parents have a responsibility to sometimes say no to the way their teens (and in this case, preteens) dress - er, express their identities??
In reply to: From the photo's presented- the boys faces look just as "photo shopped" as the girls, just a little less dramatic.
How many of the boys are wearing makeup? How many of them are climbing without shirts??
In reply to: I think women, myself included, look at what they envy or despise in other women, young and old. If you are looking at the sexuality and not the moves then your focus on other women climbing may be on the wrong rope.
Nobody's saying for one second that these girls (and boys) aren't terrific climbers. Are you seriously saying that anyone who is bothered by these images for aforementioned reasons is suffering from jealousy?? That's a pretty big generalization that doesn't give any credit to those who are genuinely concerned for the developmental wellbeing of these incredibly talented kids, something that adults are morally and legally entrusted with. There's a massive difference between self-conscious envy and appropriate skepticism.
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wa_hoo
Aug 14, 2006, 3:23 AM
Post #30 of 41
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I checked out the site and could only figure out how to find the 2007 calendar pics. I hear that a lot of you are thinking the girls are not dressed enough, or shot from interesting angles.
I have to say I just think the pics reflect how men and women of all ages in all of climbing dress. Men and boys always wear t-shirts, and women always wear more fitted clothing.
In fact, even outside of climbing, boys wear more baggy, plain clothes, and girls wear more fitted, more showing clothes. Even if I walk through Target, the girls section has lots of skin-showing clothes and the boys section has none.
I am not saying I think that's a good thing, but I think it simply reflects our current society view of women and that many (or at least those buying more of the clothes) wear less and continue that view.
I know it's a different perspective, but I had to be honest.
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climbsomething
Aug 14, 2006, 11:40 AM
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I think some of y'all are a little late in the game. The 2006 calendar had crotchshots of preteen girls wearing more makeup than clothing. (The 07 version, which shows now, is not as... slimy)
In reply to: I think women, myself included, look at what they envy or despise in other women, young and old. If you are looking at the sexuality and not the moves then your focus on other women climbing may be on the wrong rope. Personally the first thing I noticed in the first photo submitted was the move- my weaknesses in that move is one reason why I'm not climbing better (not that I've been on a rock much this summer either).
Girls that young have NOT always walked around in low-rise jeans and cropped tops with cleavage spilling out, painted and coiffed to mall-and-myspace hottie perfection. They didn't when I was younger, and I'm only 25. We're socializing our little girls to be tramps, and simultaneously encouraging pederasts, for reasons I don't understand.
If the first thing you noticed in the pic at the beginning of this thread WASN'T that this was a child being presented as a sexy little adult, then you probably also think thunder is subtle.
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acacongua
Aug 14, 2006, 12:02 PM
Post #32 of 41
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climbsomething: Kudos to your post.
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macherry
Aug 14, 2006, 4:00 PM
Post #33 of 41
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In reply to: Teen age girls are going to climb in makeup and jewelry because they are very socially consciences. It's part of growing up and identity. I'm not going to tell them subdue their personality so that every girl on a rock looks the same. I remember once a Dad walked into The Outpost with his daughters who were wearing snug tops. All the girls had their arms crossed, reducing the effect of their figures. They also were very self aware and uncomfortable, pulling at their shirts. Not that they were any less covered up then a lot of the women in the restaurant. If my daughter is going to wear something comfortable I'd rather her be comfortable and confident looking. And I DO NOT PERMIT BAGGY CLOTHING OR JEWELRY WHILE CLIMBING. It's against the climbing rules in this family! I'll tell you that even Mennonite women eye each others dresses pretty intently- and the teenage girls very intently. I see it happen all the time in my community. They are looking at the pattern, the print, and the skill work involved in making the dress. So for those of you who want to cover up your beautiful bodies and restrict your freedom of movement and comfort level on the rock AND your self image- I am here to tell you that even if you succeed, you will not change anything about how we treat ourselves.
the discussion over the calendar is not about teenage behavior, how women and girls perceive each other or freedom on the rock. It's about how these young girls were portrayed by the calendar (2006) and it wasn't natural.
no one is asking/suggesting women and girls to be ashamed of their bodies. It's all about images of pre-pubescent girls, wearing (as hils says) "more makeup than clothing". It definitely was not natural.
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tavs
Aug 14, 2006, 7:56 PM
Post #34 of 41
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In reply to: climbsomething: Kudos to your post.
Since I can't rate posts today, I had to say it: I second that.
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comet
Aug 14, 2006, 8:56 PM
Post #35 of 41
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Hillary, nicely put.
I also disagree with the following, as I do with almost everything that includes "all" and "always" as qualifiers:
In reply to: I have to say I just think the pics reflect how men and women of all ages in all of climbing dress. Men and boys always wear t-shirts, and women always wear more fitted clothing.
As a counterexample, maybe it's just because it's summer, but the standard I've seen is women in tank tops and shirtless men, not women in bikini tops and men in baggy shirts. No judgment; hell, I'd go topless if I were male or in the right company...but kids are a different story.
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wa_hoo
Aug 14, 2006, 9:16 PM
Post #36 of 41
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It sounds like the 2006 was much worse. I'm actually hoping from what you've said that those pics are not longer on-line. Maybe they got a bunch of heat for the bad pics and changed the 2007 accordingly.
I certainly would not let my 6th grader wear the stuff on their, although most of it is permitted at school, and many do wear it. I teach 6th grade and see way too much of that allowed. I'm at a charter school now and that was part of the reason. I think we still need some moderation. I was just saying as a whole I'm not sure our society agrees, but we can each do our part to support more appropriate clothing and exposure in all areas.
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blonde_loves_bolts
Aug 14, 2006, 11:39 PM
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Here is a response from Jean Michel Casanova that addresses some negative responses RE: the 'appropriateness' of his 2006 calendar. Basically, if you disagree with his "choices," then you're just projecting your own perversions onto his sacred art. Also note the pic selection he chose for the beginning of his article...
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jpdreamer
Aug 15, 2006, 1:12 AM
Post #39 of 41
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So I was initially going to say that while the biniki top feels a bit off, the thin strap tank tops are worn by a lot of kids and I see nothing wrong with pics of the girls climbing in them, which I still feel is true.
However, after googling some of the kids, it is abundantly clear that this is not the clothing they wear most of the time, so in light of that I'll concur that the girls in the November and December shots are madeup to look, well, not like kids. The rest seem fine.
(just as a comparison, consider the first shot in the series above of Sera Moon Busse, then compare it to her team pictures at her team (Zero Gravity) website.
Edited to specify November and December.
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lewisiarediviva
Aug 17, 2006, 3:12 AM
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It is women who complain about what girls wear.
I'm 35. I listened to women complain about what my generation and younger generations wore as girls. I also know what those older women wore when they were that age. All teenage girls push the boundaries. . .
I think for those of you in their mid 20's- it was the guys with their pants below their boxers (someone had to be rebellious).
But the fact that all these girls are almost all wearing the same shirt is interesting-
My niece is very conservative, but she will not go back to non low rise jeans, she says they are uncomfortable.
To avoid another posting, I am editing this one simply to add another thought: We could say that this increase in portraying young children more like adults has stemmed from the "make love, not war" generation that promoted the first real push to get women to talk about sex. (I know that the mini skirts and hot pants were highly put down by older women at the time.) Maybe the sexual revolution went too far. On the other hand I once spoke with a woman in a younger generation than the Flower Children, but she was a few generations older than my self. She told me that sex was spoken of so little amongst the women in her family that she literally had NO CLUE what was going on on her wedding night- can you imagine how terrifying that could have been? I am not making a stance here, but these are aspects to consider. Another one is that half of these girls above are at the age that if they lived 150 years ago they would be looking at marriage- and they would be if they lived somewhere else in the world today. Because someone recognized at one point that girls at the age of 13 had high death rates during birth our culture has learned to not accept treating 13 year olds as women, but our cultural opinion on this subject is not the world wide majority, yet.
So really, this is an age old question, turning children into adults. At one point in history "children" was not the same concept as we have of childhood now. The question we have now is where should the line be drawn. We cannot say, however, that we have never expected our kids to be "little adults." Because in reality, the real concern at hand might be that we are reverting backwards and expecting our kids to be "little adults" in more ways than sexual overtones.
So I guess what I am saying is that I conflicting thoughts; one is that most of you are over reacting and being silly, the other is that you are more right on then I want to admit because the subject loaded.
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dicwu
Aug 19, 2006, 7:32 AM
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I was trying to restrain myself, but I thought I would weigh in on what everyone here's been discussing.
I think the issue that a lot of us are really against in this Kids of Climbing calendar is the objectification of young girls portrayed. Although the 2007 calendar is a little better than the 2006 one, I was definitely more than a little heebed out by the pictures I saw. That's not because I'm jealous of these girls' abilities. (I am equally jealous of both the girls' and boys' abilities :D , but just not creeped out by the boys' pictures.) Its because I saw a bunch of girls who were dramatically made-up in these pictures (although Jean Michel claims they weren't) with their climbing skills barely highlighted (some are just brushing holds or you can't even see any of the holds on the some of the girls' routes).
However, I will give Jean-Michel Casanova (just wanted a chance to say his full name - are you kidding me??) the benefit of the doubt and say that I'm guessing he isn't a child predator, and he didn't mean to purposely sexualize the girls. I think the ideals he posted on his website are great - promoting climbing amongst kids and allowing these amazing young climbers to have the spotlight on their abilities. That's not to say that he's "forgiven" - I'm glad there was enough of an uproar about the 2006 version that he has been a bit more careful about the 2007 version and that he found it necessary for his little friend in a red jumpsuit to support him on the website. I feel that what he DID do was fall into our society's growing trend of sexually objectifying girls.
This trend has been, quite possibly, the rule for women and girls in a lot of other sports - but most of these sports have been long commercialized. I don't think anyone's any longer surprised when Anna Kournikova poses for another photo shoot or Maria Sharapova sells another watch, for example. But my feeling is that most climbers feel that the sport and its culture/history have enough integrity to stay true to the sport, instead of selling it to boys or girls (or men & women) by portraying made-up, half-clad, pre-pubescent girls. Personally, I feel that this calendar exposes my frustrations and a lot of other climbers' frustrations to be taken seriously as a female climber and not the "girl" who just likes to tag along with the boys at the crag and can't handle chipping a nail on the rock.
In reply to: To avoid another posting, I am editing this one simply to add another thought: We could say that this increase in portraying young children more like adults has stemmed from the "make love, not war" generation that promoted the first real push to get women to talk about sex. (I know that the mini skirts and hot pants were highly put down by older women at the time.) Maybe the sexual revolution went too far. On the other hand I once spoke with a woman in a younger generation than the Flower Children, but she was a few generations older than my self. She told me that sex was spoken of so little amongst the women in her family that she literally had NO CLUE what was going on on her wedding night- can you imagine how terrifying that could have been? I am not making a stance here, but these are aspects to consider.
Anyway, I think I've yammered on long enough, and sorry, I honestly didn't mean to write a treatise on this. Last thing, I'm 22, so probably a young woman or "girl" by some standards. (Although I probably look as old as Cicada in my pictures.) So its not that I'm just an aging, hobbling granny who is shocked by the lack of clothing worn by these girl climbers. I've seen enough of that from my peers and friends to be surprised. I don't see the calendar as the end of the world, but just another example of the lack of respect for female climbers that I feel a lot of women AND men are trying to change.
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