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watch_me
Jun 20, 2006, 5:25 AM
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I am wondering if anyone has any advice as to how they progressed from climbing 5.10s to 5.11s.
I currently lead sport routes in the 5.10a/b range and trad climb up to 5.8/5.9. I have avoided top roping climbs this year and try to lead everything I climb. I find top-roping sort of messes with my head a bit for leading. I have a bouldering wall in my garage but not a local climbing gym in my town. Good limestone sport crags are within a 10 minute drive though.
I have a fairly stong upper body for a girl my size. When I was training on our bouldering wall and hang board I could do sets of 15 pull-ups and do most problems we had made up on our wall. I have sort of lost interest in training specifically though because I think my limitations in climbing are not in strength but in technique, experience and my head.
I jumped on a climb the other day that looked "do-able" from the ground ( we didn't know what it's rating was at the time ) but it turned out to be a 5.10d/5.11a crimp-fest. Sadly, I hang-dogged at every draw and climbed it with horrible style.
My climbing partners all tend to climb in the low 5.10s as well, so seconding harder routes is not really an option. I hate the idea of climbing something that I am unable to finish, which would cause me to have to leave gear if I bail.
Getting to the 5.10 range seemed to be a very natural progression. But 5.11s often look/seem improbable.
Any words of wisdom?
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sick_climba
Jun 20, 2006, 5:42 AM
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Yes, upper body strength, there is apoint where strength does not help you any more.... but you are almost never there. Training on bouldering walls does help wether you think it is or not. 10a to 11a may seem like one grade but its really 4 thats like if you were a soild 5.5 leader and no higher and suddenly jumping to 5.9. So don't get discouraged. Also although you may be syrong enough on jugs to do pull ups, that doesn't mean you are strong enough for slopers crimps or side pulls. you need to learn how to even out all of that. What helped me most is slopers... do sloper problems on real rock... plastic slopers suck and that will help you learn weight blanceing tenqunique. Slack line... it also helps with balance. Climb at your hardest redpoint constantly until it feels like its not your hardest anymore. Thats when you know you are ready to climb the next grade higher (which is not from 5.10 a to 5.10b ... its 5.10 onsight with 5.10b redpoint.) But most importantly stop worring about it and have fun. One day it will just click. Push trying to get better, but not to hard. Climb and let it flow and it will fall into place. To climb any grade higher you first need to accept that you can't at the moment but that you CAN when you are ready.
But I'm a dirty hippy so it might not work for you. Good luck
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vegastradguy
Jun 20, 2006, 6:18 AM
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I'm currently in the middle of the progression between .10 and .11- meaning i'm consistently onsighting .10s and doing well enough on .11s to feel confident that i'll make it up them (although not confident enough to do it without hangdogging!)
i've been leading .10s for about a year and a half or so and it wasnt until about two months ago that i started to feel that 'click' that gave me hope for .11s...i just feel better on the rock, more confident in myself and my abilities- anything under .10 feels fairly easy and .10s are feeling good (and of course challenging at times).
i'd say it mostly comes down to mileage. another big factor is getting on tougher climbs, even if it means falling all over them. you dont get to be an .11 climber by leading .9s and .10s- you have to push yourself.
so-- solidify yourself on .10s and explore the .11s and i think you'll be in excellent shape for becoming an .11 leader.
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styndall
Jun 20, 2006, 6:25 AM
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It sounds like you just need to climb a lot more 10s. Once you're cruising most of the 10s you jump on, then the 11s will come pretty naturally.
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anykineclimb
Jun 20, 2006, 7:47 AM
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In reply to: I have avoided top roping climbs this year and try to lead everything I climb. I find top-roping sort of messes with my head a bit for leading.
Top rope .11s. which leads me to:
In reply to: My climbing partners all tend to climb in the low 5.10s as well, so seconding harder routes is not really an option.
Find stronger partners.
I understadn what you're saying about not liking TR, but being able to work routes on TR will get you playing on .11s without all that pesky falling. Your rope will thank you. :lol:
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gunkiemike
Jun 20, 2006, 10:27 AM
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In reply to: you dont get to be an .11 climber by leading .9s and .10s- you have to push yourself.
This is the key IMO. Runners say that lots of slow running makes you a good, SLOW runner. I say climbing lots of 10's make you a solid 10 climber. But it's a very slow and ineffective way to advance. So either you find some renewed enthusiasm for bouldering-as-training (indoors and out) or you start spending more time on 11's. TR if that's available, hangdogging a route if you prefer. That 10d/11a you hung your way up? Make it your new favorite climb and work it into submission. Then do the same to several more.
Also be patient and listen to your tendons. And don't tie your satisfaction to a number.
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overlord
Jun 20, 2006, 11:34 AM
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im just guessing here, but how good is your endurance and powerendurance??
if you get pumped easily and are able to do the moves after you hanged a little, then you most likely need to improve your powerendurance.
also try improving your footwork/technique if you thing that its holding you back. there are many good posts/articles on this subject on rc.com and eslsewhere.
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hiram
Jun 20, 2006, 1:08 PM
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i am in the exact same stage of my climbing ability and have often asked this same question. i have been climbing for about five years (with a few extended breaks) and have topped out at 5.10b sport climbs.
i have come to the conclusion that to get above 5.10s i first have to want to, it is easy to go out on a Saturday and do a few leisurely 5.8s and 9s because i can. my approach this season is to get on 5.11s each time i am out. i figure the other two keys are strength and technique.
another reason i want to improve my ability is that there are a lot of sport routs at the rrg, i feel that i am limited to only about a third of them. once i am able to get on 5.11s and above i am thinking that the gorge is going to become a whole different place.
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bivyledge
Jun 20, 2006, 1:25 PM
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Mileage definitely helps. Lots of 10's is a good idea but definitely tr 11's when you can. Successes on toprope will build confidence. Confidence helps you to relax, to not overgrip, and to learn to climb deliberately (often this means fast through the hard sections). I am no stronger now than I was five years ago, but a much better climber, in great part due to my ability to relax and not overgrip, especially on easy terrain. You've got to learn to conserve the juice so you have it for the hard moves.
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dalguard
Jun 20, 2006, 2:08 PM
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Could you lose 10 pounds?
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whipperboy
Jun 20, 2006, 2:20 PM
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If you're leading .10a/b, then just go with the natural progression of things. Work some .10c/d routes and concentrate on getting some vertical mileage under your belt. Strength, and most importantly technique, will come as a happy little by-product of your efforts.
I realize that top roping may mess with you, but I've always found (especially when I was starting) that working on a top rope can be a very valuable training tool, especially when you're not super comfortable with taking potentially big falls.
Other than that, get out there and start projecting! If you're not comfortable leaving your gear on the wall, then round up a few bail-beaners and clean your stuff on the way down. Good luck! You kin du it!
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krusher4
Jun 20, 2006, 3:01 PM
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Sounds like your almost there. Cut down your rack, pre-scope your route for gear sizes/pieces and only place pro from good stances. Add that to a little mental edge and your good.
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dirtineye
Jun 20, 2006, 3:34 PM
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Listen to overlord and gunkiemike, ignore the rest of the crap.
Now hear this:
YOu talk about pullups as if they were a good thing, well, they don't have much to do with climbing.
You eant to seriously improve, as in, from finding a particular climb impossible to seeing it as trivial?
THen learn to use your FEET.
Learn every efficieny technique you can.
Upper body strength is good, but the way you climb 45 degree ovehangs is usually by not pulling with your arms, but driving with your feet and rocking around your arms.
You hold on with your hands and push with your feet, and you torque your body and reach across it, and always have good balance.
I remember when I could do all kinds of stupid strenght tricks with pullups, like pullup with 60 pounds in a back pack. but I didn't get up an ovehang till somone showed me how to use my feet, and even hook them into holds and hang on with hands and feet, as well as push with feet while holding on with hands.
I also wil ladvise yo uto forget about grade, and concentrate on the kind of climb instead.
OU will find that aa 5.10 offwidth is going to shut you down cold, while a 5.10 face is probably somethign you can do right now. YOU might be a 5.11 slab climber and a 5.8 crack climber, LOL.
The sort of climb that suits you or not is more important than the abstract grade in terms of telling you if you will get up it or not.
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olderic
Jun 20, 2006, 3:36 PM
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Progressing (to harder grades anyway) in climbing is like most things in life - it involves getting out of your comfort zone - identifying and working your weaknesses - shaking things up so you don't get stuck in a rut. Climb harder things on TR or dog (learn things like the Texas rope trick so you can get in over your head), do longer moderates fast, etc. Of course one of the nice things about climbing is that progession doesn't have to be measured only by technical difficulty. There is an almost endless variety of climbing to be done in the world and climbing at the level that you already are you can do a lot of it - and you live in a part of the world where a lot of that is pretty accesssible.
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sick_climba
Jun 20, 2006, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: Upper body strength is good, but the way you climb 45 degree ovehangs is usually by not pulling with your arms, but driving with your feet and rocking around your arms. . |
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eireclimber
Jun 20, 2006, 5:47 PM
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I am in a similar situation except I feel I have moved past the barrier. I just sent my first 11 a few weeks ago. It was really only the second 11 that I tried and the first one was an onsight that I only fell once on. Its all about confidence. If you are sure of your strenght and ability then everything will change. It all began when I onsighted a half dozen 10s(a-d) at the New a month ago. I had never climbed at that level and ever since I have pushed it on 11 a's-11c's. I have a partner that pushes me continually and that is the key. But I have some newfound confidence and although I've only led a few 11s I know that I can if I just work the moves a time or two. TR a route, mentally tell yourself that you can do the route, and keep pushing yourself and you will send.
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kason
Jun 20, 2006, 6:10 PM
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I hope this helps. Two months ago my hardest lead had been 10a sport and .9 trad. My climbing partner was at the exact same level. We made project routes, always on the lead. We wouldnt allow each other to take, its send or fall. In the event of a fall we would just lower, pull the rope, and switch leads. After a couple of days we would get the moves dialed, redpoint, and find another project. When my partner gets past where I fell it inspires me, and vice-versa. You notice technique they used to get past a crux, hidden holds, etc. Its like bouldering projects. You also lose the fear of falling. Now we are close to redpointing an 11b sport route, and we are in the 10 range with trad. I dont climb for numbers, but redpointing a project route harder than any you've ever done really boosts your confidence and opens doors. The route that seemed impossible is now dialed so well that you climb it ten times a night when you're trying to sleep.
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cchildre
Jun 20, 2006, 6:24 PM
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Funny thing in my case. I was climbing 11's before I really knew that I was. Without a guidebook for the area that I primarly climb in, climbing routes with unknown grades was pretty common. The 11's I knew were giving me fitts, although seemed within my grasp. Then one weekend I hopped on some of the unknown lines, and onsited two, and got the third on my 2nd attempt. Three months later, I finally sent my first known 11a, and ran into the guru local and his personal guidebook. The three routes I had gotten months before were 11a, 11b, and 11c. Then I went to Datil and onsited an 11b with ease.
So advise, don't worry about the numbers so much. Climb hard, push yourself, the numbers will fall in time before you know it.
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zeke_sf
Jun 20, 2006, 7:22 PM
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Hey, watch_me, I posted a similar thread recently. I've finally red-pointed two 11As with my sights now set on a 5.11B. I think the first component is desire, which you clearly have. 15 pullups is more than enough arm strength, it's the fingers/grip that need work.
I really like John Long's advice to sport climbers. He says there are 4 types of climbs 1) doable 2) near-limit, 3) at limit, and 4) beyond limit. He says to focus on doable to near-limit climbs (so, for you, maybe 5.10B to 5.10C) with some at limit to beyond limit climbs mixed in. The idea is to get a lot of mileage/experience leading, and this format allows you to keep cranking longer while working on hard stuff as well.
Also, lead up something easy and then swing over to set anchors on something harder, etc. Try to climb those harder climbs as clean as you can and the experience on harder stuff should transfer over nicely. Good luck. Once you get over that initial hurdle you should be off and running with your new-found confidence :D!
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jt512
Jun 21, 2006, 12:14 AM
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In reply to: I am wondering if anyone has any advice as to how they progressed from climbing 5.10s to 5.11s. I currently lead sport routes in the 5.10a/b range and trad climb up to 5.8/5.9. ... I have a fairly stong upper body for a girl my size. When I was training on our bouldering wall and hang board I could do sets of 15 pull-ups and do most problems we had made up on our wall. I have sort of lost interest in training specifically though because I think my limitations in climbing are not in strength but in technique, experience and my head.
Well, you are stronger than I am, and I've redopointed 5.12d. However, training is exactly what you need, but you need to train movement ("technique"). Until recently this has been difficult to do because little had been written on movement training for climbing. But, Dan Hague and Douglas Hunter's recent book, The Self-Coached Climber, covers the subject in detail. It should put you on the right track.
Jay
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watch_me
Jun 21, 2006, 4:13 AM
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Thank you for the advice. Thank you Jay for reminding me that I wanted to read The Self Coached-Climber.
I am really not focused on grades but more the opportunity to play in new areas and become a safer and more competent climber.
I will head your advice and have fun with climbing 5.10s, working on climbing them smoothly. I think that I will bite the bullet and flail around on top rope a bit for some harder climbs. Perhaps, I will also find some project type climbs that I can work on without donating a ton of gear to the better climbers in my community.
Once I can climb 5.11 then I might start thinking about more indoor training. Until then HIT strips be damned.
Thanks
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shanz
Jun 21, 2006, 6:39 AM
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In reply to: Listen to overlord and gunkiemike, ignore the rest of the crap. Now hear this: YOu talk about pullups as if they were a good thing, well, they don't have much to do with climbing. You eant to seriously improve, as in, from finding a particular climb impossible to seeing it as trivial? THen learn to use your FEET. Learn every efficieny technique you can. Upper body strength is good, but the way you climb 45 degree ovehangs is usually by not pulling with your arms, but driving with your feet and rocking around your arms. You hold on with your hands and push with your feet, and you torque your body and reach across it, and always have good balance. I remember when I could do all kinds of stupid strenght tricks with pullups, like pullup with 60 pounds in a back pack. but I didn't get up an ovehang till somone showed me how to use my feet, and even hook them into holds and hang on with hands and feet, as well as push with feet while holding on with hands. I also wil ladvise yo uto forget about grade, and concentrate on the kind of climb instead. OU will find that aa 5.10 offwidth is going to shut you down cold, while a 5.10 face is probably somethign you can do right now. YOU might be a 5.11 slab climber and a 5.8 crack climber, LOL. The sort of climb that suits you or not is more important than the abstract grade in terms of telling you if you will get up it or not.
well said not to mention read the Rock Warriors way and apply the principles (edited to keep the grammar Nazil's away)
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cchildre
Jun 21, 2006, 3:21 PM
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Just another note. I met this girl Carrie from Canada. She was working in the 10's much as you are today. Her partner, Kevin, and boyfriend, well, he went to Red Rocks and onsited every 13 they had, so he is strong. Well, climbing with him, she broke into the 12's before she ever sent an 11. Reason was, Kev was working at walls that had no 11's, so if she wanted to climb with him, that was all she could work on. So stronger partners can be key. Work on things you think are way too hard, but within reach.
I still think it is sick that she skipped the 11's.
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krusher4
Jun 21, 2006, 7:58 PM
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In reply to: Just another note. I met this girl Carrie from Canada. She was working in the 10's much as you are today. Her partner, Kevin, and boyfriend, well, he went to Red Rocks and onsited every 13 they had, so he is strong. Well, climbing with him, she broke into the 12's before she ever sent an 11. Reason was, Kev was working at walls that had no 11's, so if she wanted to climb with him, that was all she could work on. So stronger partners can be key. Work on things you think are way too hard, but within reach. I still think it is sick that she skipped the 11's.
My GF skipped the whole 5.10(whatever range) just because she was following me (not meant to spray geez) Just another example. Even if you have a mild amount of talent, seeing something done gets over the mental barrier (which is what we are really trying to do)
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deschamps1000
Jun 21, 2006, 8:50 PM
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What is stopping you from hitting 5.11 may be totally different from what stops other people from hitting 5.11. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, and thus there is no "cover-all" approach.
I STRONGLY believe in the "weakest link" theory: Whatever is your weakest link in climbing is what will hold you back the most. Thus, you will progress much faster if you work on your weakness rather than your strengths. The most important thing to do is correctly identify your weakness.
I have identified my weakness as back, bicep, and tricep strength. I have been focusing on these for a few months now and can already feel the difference.
So you have to find out what your weakness is. Is it your head? You mentioned that you hung on each bolt on the 11a. Did you take lead falls? Being willing to take lead falls will immediatly up your climbing ability. Are you strategic in your climbing? Do you take rests where you should, plan where you have time to, and gun it when you need to? Is it your forearms? Is it your technique? Focus on your greatest weakness to see the greatest improvements. I think that this theory applies to other aspects of life too.
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