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Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts?
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jjanowia


Jun 26, 2006, 9:22 AM
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Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts?
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I was taught (by friends who were climbers, not experienced guides or instructors) that I should carry one daisy chain girth hitched to my harness for when I reach bolt anchors on a sport climb. Upon gaining the anchors, clip the daisy into one of the bolts with a locking biner, and then set up an anchor with slings, etc. for a toprope, or thread the rope through for a rappel if no one else will TRing the climb.

I've seen people doing this with slings girth-hitched as well, but was told it is more convenient to use the daisy because one can adjust the length to avoid awkward positioning.

I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system. Should I be carrying two daisies (or slings) girth hitched to my harness, and clipping them each into a separate bolts while I set up an anchor?


beesty511


Jun 26, 2006, 9:40 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system. Should I be carrying two daisies (or slings) girth hitched to my harness, and clipping them each into a separate bolts while I set up an anchor?
Yes. But two daisies are too bulky. That's why people use slings.


caughtinside


Jun 26, 2006, 9:49 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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The simplest way to do it is to have a couple extra quick draws. Chain them together onto your belay loop, into each bolt. This way you're on both bolts, and you also avoid the unfortunate consequence of looking like the gumby with a daisy chain.

Daisy chains are for aid.


norsk


Jun 26, 2006, 10:31 AM
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I agree that using a daisy chain is bulky (not to mention the possibility of a blowout if used incorrectly), but I disagree that one should use extra draws clipped together to attach themselves to the anchor bolts. The main reason for this is simply because it can increase the chance of something going wrong. Imagine you have two draws chained together going to each bolt, for a total of four draws. That is many parts that could fail, or get bumped into and open up, etc. Morevoer, if others have climbed the route and there already are draws there (in use as the anchor), and the last climber attaches themselves to the anchor with even more draws so they can begin cleaning the route, now there is nothing but a mess of draws and a weary climber could become confused and unclip the wrong one. Finally, carrying extra draws for this use adds expense and weight, although both I suppose are marginal.
I think the best thing to do is to have two brightly colored slings attached to your harness with a girth hitch and use those to attach to the anchor. Cheaper, lighter, less likely to get confused with something else, and less likely to fail.


justthemaid


Jun 26, 2006, 10:31 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Yeah- you can just girth hitch a runner or I've got one of those really thin daisys (basically a 24"runner with some stitched loops).

More often than not when it's a sport climb with two bolts at the top, I'll just use my spare quickdraws to hook into both bolts.

In your case if you like your daisy- just use linked quickdraws for the second bolt.


bill413


Jun 26, 2006, 10:36 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Upon gaining the anchors, clip the daisy into one of the bolts with a locking biner, and then set up an anchor with slings, etc. for a toprope, or thread the rope through for a rappel if no one else will TRing the climb.

I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system.

Well, if you are still on belay (like while setting up an anchor for TR) it is redundant, because, if your single bolt fails, the belay should catch you at the next one. If you are taking the belay off, then you really want redundancy in what you are clipped into, and having it in what you are clipped in with is nice also.

If you are using a daisy chain, make sure you look at the threads about how it can become unclipped (the daisy chain magic trick) if more than one pocket is clipped with the same carabiner. Also, make sure you stay below the anchors, or else, if you slip, you could exert a tremendous load on the anchors since the daisy chain is not a dynamic system.


olib


Jun 26, 2006, 10:46 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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For single pitch sport I only carry quickdraws. If I am leading I carry two extra draws made from runners and locking biners. I don't thread the rope through the anchor bolts, just clip on the last two draws, clip in to those and lower.

The 2nd climbs the other end of the rope, cleaning on his way up. When he reaches the top he goes direct with the draws he cleaned, threads the rope and raps down.

This system is very simple, requires very little gear, and there is virtually no wear on the anchor bolts.


pnoone


Jun 26, 2006, 10:51 AM
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How about a 6mm cord (looped with a double fisherman's). If you use a prussik loop in the end you'll want to clip (the end that you'll clip your locker to then clip into the anchor) the length is adjustable, which is a great feature. It's light enough that you could carry two for redundancy.


potreroed


Jun 26, 2006, 11:11 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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The daisy chain is fine; you can always clip it to both bolts.


kovacs69


Jun 26, 2006, 11:17 AM
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We have beat this subject to death. Just do a search for this subject...I guarantee there are lots of threads covering daisy chains and their uses.

JB


rockprodigy


Jun 26, 2006, 11:20 AM
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Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.

Oh yeah, and IC is a sport crag, so if you have a daisy there, guess what?


kiwijason


Jun 26, 2006, 11:35 AM
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I always use a chicken sling when ever I am near an edge, when I get to the top of a climb and I start putting in pro for an anchor I am on belay from below (as long as my second is still awake) and I clip the chicken sling to the first bit of pro, the second bit of pro that goes in gets a alpine hitch clipped in to it from my climbing rope (which is tied in to my harness at the right length to allow for movement). Once the anchor is finished and equalized etc I might re clip the chicken sling to the focal point of the anchor but I leave the rope clipped where it is till I am ready to lead the next section, once I am back on belay and ready to climb I unclip the rope last and climb on. At no time is there no redundancy because I am on belay till I have two points clipped in and I have built my anchor. The belay only then comes off so my second can start climbing. I don't use the daisy chain as such I use the Mett PAS that has the sewn loops.


mped


Jun 26, 2006, 12:00 PM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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I was at REI a couple of weeks ago looking at the Metolius PAS

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/pas.htm

Anyway, reading the directions it works like this: girth hitch specified end to harness, clip the next loop to desired distance to bolt 1, and clip last loop, which has a different color to bolt 2.

I am unsure, but I think one would not have a problem if they did they same with a daisy chain. I "feel" safer with something like PAS over a D-chain.


paganmonkeyboy


Jun 26, 2006, 12:21 PM
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Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.

Oh yeah, and IC is a sport crag, so if you have a daisy there, guess what?


w00t ! i've been promoted to gumby !!! and i was stuck at n00b for what seemed like forever...

(off topic - anyone else listen to daisy chainsaw ? they rock...)


codhands


Jun 26, 2006, 1:08 PM
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Right or wrong this is my method. I take a 48" runner, clove hitch it in the middle through my tie-in points, put a locker on each end, and clip them to a gear loop. This set-up has worked well for me and it has proven to be very versatile. Anyone see any problems with that? If you do then tell me why.


secretagent


Jun 26, 2006, 6:21 PM
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I always carry a daisy but I don't always feel the need to use it.
Also I carry a 48inch runner which like the daisy is not always used, I guess what I'm trying to say is the use of these tools can both be useful but use is situational.


roninthorne


Jun 27, 2006, 3:19 AM
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Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.

Don't know if it's fair or justified, but you're wrong. Working gear + comfort = safety. Being concerned about what someone else thinks of your gear is assinine and some combination of paranoid and narcissistic. Use what is safe and works for you. That's what it is all about in the end.

And THAT is a fact.


Partner heiko


Jun 27, 2006, 4:00 AM
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kewl, another daisy chain thread! :lol:

there are safety issues resulting from wrong use of daisy chains, so maybe you want to check this thread for the gory details:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ewtopic.php?t=111061

I got a daisy chain, and retired it soon after. After your first time in a hang-belay for an hour you will realize that the 2 minutes you spend at the top anchor of a sport climb are meaningless, and thus don't require special gear to make it more convenient. Just use one (or two!) normal shoulder-length slings, anchor, thread the rope, and leave. Some people use a chain of draws, as mentioned. Others use an adjustable friction knot on cord. Some use a prusik. Do what suits you best. If you're a beginner, a redundant solution seems advisable tho.


edited n times to correct spelling.


flying_k


Jun 27, 2006, 11:21 AM
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I was taught Daisy chains are not safe.
I am a new climber and should probably keep my mouth shut but I feel a few points that should be raised here.
First if you are using a sling or daisy girth to your harness it should be short enough that you can always reach it when it is at full length.
Second if you are on belay why not clip a biner to the bolt and clip your rope, then build your anchor and then clip your sling or daisy to the master point.
I have a 30in. sling girthed to my harness and with an overhand not at half length so I can tie in at full length or half
The few leads I have done (both of them) had no bolts so I put in a piece clipped it then built a bomber serene and then cliped my runner to the master point.

I have only been climbing eight times now so take this with a grain of salt and let me know if I am wrong.
cheers Kenny


potreroed


Jun 27, 2006, 11:27 AM
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Rockprodigy is wrong (he's probably one of those super-macho trad climbers) I've been climbing for 39 years and have put up over 100 routes, including some of the longest bolted routes in the world so I don't think I qualify as gumby. Sport or trad I always keep a daisy chain (Metolius PA system) girth hitched to my harness.


caughtinside


Jun 27, 2006, 11:33 AM
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Rockprodigy is wrong

No, his reply was correct. He even pointed out that the perception of gumby may not be right or fair, but that it is there.

And you know why that perception is there? Because at a sport crag, a daisy chain is unnecessary gear. 95% of the time, the climber at the sport crag with a daisy chain is either a gumby, or a visiting trad climber, who is also likely to rap down after completing the route.

Like he mentioned, it may not be right or fair, but there it is.

If you're a sport climber, there's no reason to buy a $25 daisy, when the same job can be done with 2 draws, which are more versatile and useful.


jt512


Jun 27, 2006, 11:55 AM
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I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system.

It's not. Most experienced sport climbers simply clip in with two ordinary quickdraws. But no matter which system you choose, you should always be independently clipped in to two anchor points before untying from the rope or being taken off belay.

Jay


jt512


Jun 27, 2006, 12:10 PM
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Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Your equation is a special case of a more general one:

X + Sport Crag = Gumby, where X = just about anything on your harness, other than quick draws.

X may take on the following values, for instance:
    [*:c36fe59d30]locking carabiner(s)

    [*:c36fe59d30]prusik(s)

    [*:c36fe59d30]quick link(s) :shock:

    [*:c36fe59d30]ATC (rarely justified)

Jay


sketch


Jun 27, 2006, 1:58 PM
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Check out this 10 page guide on how to clean bolted anchors. It was put together by Rick Weber, owner of Muir Valley Nature Preserve in Kentucky. This method is my personal preference for cleaning routes at Red River Gorge:

http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/CleaningBook_v1.pdf


jt512


Jun 27, 2006, 2:13 PM
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In reply to:
Check out this 10 page guide on how to clean bolted anchors. It was put together by Rick Weber, owner of Muir Valley Nature Preserve in Kentucky. This method is my personal preference for cleaning routes at Red River Gorge:

http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/CleaningBook_v1.pdf

That technique requires 4 :shock: locking carabiners, an ATC, and a prusik. See my list above. This is a record-breaking gumby technique!

Jay


caughtinside


Jun 27, 2006, 2:24 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Check out this 10 page guide on how to clean bolted anchors. It was put together by Rick Weber, owner of Muir Valley Nature Preserve in Kentucky. This method is my personal preference for cleaning routes at Red River Gorge:

http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/CleaningBook_v1.pdf

That technique requires 4 :shock: locking carabiners, an ATC, and a prusik. See my list above. This is a record-breaking gumby technique!

Jay

If you engage in all that nonsense, do you have time to climb more than 2 routes a day?

But the guide was, if nothing else, thorough! :shock:


jt512


Jun 27, 2006, 2:33 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Check out this 10 page guide on how to clean bolted anchors. It was put together by Rick Weber, owner of Muir Valley Nature Preserve in Kentucky. This method is my personal preference for cleaning routes at Red River Gorge:

http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/CleaningBook_v1.pdf

That technique requires 4 :shock: locking carabiners, an ATC, and a prusik. See my list above. This is a record-breaking gumby technique!

Jay

If you engage in all that nonsense, do you have time to climb more than 2 routes a day?

But the guide was, if nothing else, thorough! :shock:

Yeah. An 11-page PDF to explain what normally takes a paragraph!

Jay


colotopian


Jun 27, 2006, 2:56 PM
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I was taught (by friends who were climbers, not experienced guides or instructors) that I should carry one daisy chain girth hitched to my harness for when I reach bolt anchors on a sport climb. Upon gaining the anchors, clip the daisy into one of the bolts with a locking biner, and then set up an anchor with slings, etc. for a toprope, or thread the rope through for a rappel if no one else will TRing the climb.

I've seen people doing this with slings girth-hitched as well, but was told it is more convenient to use the daisy because one can adjust the length to avoid awkward positioning.

I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system. Should I be carrying two daisies (or slings) girth hitched to my harness, and clipping them each into a separate bolts while I set up an anchor?

Watch the 'tech video' at the bottom... :D
http://www.bdel.com/...l/daisys_detail.php#


jt512


Jun 27, 2006, 3:02 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I was taught (by friends who were climbers, not experienced guides or instructors) that I should carry one daisy chain girth hitched to my harness for when I reach bolt anchors on a sport climb. Upon gaining the anchors, clip the daisy into one of the bolts with a locking biner, and then set up an anchor with slings, etc. for a toprope, or thread the rope through for a rappel if no one else will TRing the climb.

I've seen people doing this with slings girth-hitched as well, but was told it is more convenient to use the daisy because one can adjust the length to avoid awkward positioning.

I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system. Should I be carrying two daisies (or slings) girth hitched to my harness, and clipping them each into a separate bolts while I set up an anchor?

Watch the 'tech video' at the bottom... :D
http://www.bdel.com/...l/daisys_detail.php#

good link!


colotopian


Jun 27, 2006, 3:09 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I was taught (by friends who were climbers, not experienced guides or instructors) that I should carry one daisy chain girth hitched to my harness for when I reach bolt anchors on a sport climb. Upon gaining the anchors, clip the daisy into one of the bolts with a locking biner, and then set up an anchor with slings, etc. for a toprope, or thread the rope through for a rappel if no one else will TRing the climb.

I've seen people doing this with slings girth-hitched as well, but was told it is more convenient to use the daisy because one can adjust the length to avoid awkward positioning.

I'm concerned that this is not a redundant system. Should I be carrying two daisies (or slings) girth hitched to my harness, and clipping them each into a separate bolts while I set up an anchor?

Watch the 'tech video' at the bottom... :D
http://www.bdel.com/...l/daisys_detail.php#

good link!

Thanks. :D If you must use something like this use this by metolious...
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/pas.htm


Partner heiko


Jun 28, 2006, 3:03 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Check out this 10 page guide on how to clean bolted anchors. It was put together by Rick Weber, owner of Muir Valley Nature Preserve in Kentucky. This method is my personal preference for cleaning routes at Red River Gorge:

http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/CleaningBook_v1.pdf

That technique requires 4 :shock: locking carabiners, an ATC, and a prusik. See my list above. This is a record-breaking gumby technique!

Jay

If you engage in all that nonsense, do you have time to climb more than 2 routes a day?

But the guide was, if nothing else, thorough! :shock:

Yeah. An 11-page PDF to explain what normally takes a paragraph!

Jay

Seems safe and sensible to me. Plus, if you're getting lowered instead of rapelling, you need less gear.


rockprodigy


Jun 29, 2006, 7:15 AM
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Rockprodigy is wrong (he's probably one of those super-macho trad climbers) I've been climbing for 39 years and have put up over 100 routes, including some of the longest bolted routes in the world so I don't think I qualify as gumby. Even when I climb trad I always keep a daisy chain (Metolius PA system) girth hitched to my harness.

Shouldn't your signature block read:

"Climbing big walls with a dozen draws a single rope [and a ratty, gumby-attracting daisy chain] is a beautiful thing."

You may not "qualify as gumby", but you look like one, and as they say, perception is reality. But then, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so maybe you are a beautiful gumby.


potreroed


Jun 29, 2006, 7:38 AM
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Perhaps you're right. Should I also mention that I usually climb with a small crescent wrench (for tightening loose bolt hangars) and often with a small pruning shears (for cleaning vegetation) as well as a small container for my emergency heart medication? There's sport crags and then there's sport walls.


wanderinfree


Jun 29, 2006, 9:23 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Rockprodigy is wrong (he's probably one of those super-macho trad climbers) I've been climbing for 39 years and have put up over 100 routes, including some of the longest bolted routes in the world so I don't think I qualify as gumby. Even when I climb trad I always keep a daisy chain (Metolius PA system) girth hitched to my harness.

Shouldn't your signature block read:

"Climbing big walls with a dozen draws a single rope [and a ratty, gumby-attracting daisy chain] is a beautiful thing."

You may not "qualify as gumby", but you look like one, and as they say, perception is reality. But then, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so maybe you are a beautiful gumby.

Wow. Thanks for enlightening all of us. You have helped me see the error of my ways. Rather than climbing for the pure enjoyment of my time on the rock and pushing my own physical limits, I should be far more concerned with my "style" signature says about me. I couldn't give a rat's ass what people think of me--particularly when it's based on my use of a daisy, gri-gri, whatever. Last I checked, high school was over. Climb with what you feel comfortable and safe on. The rest is just pretentious bullshit.


glowering


Jun 29, 2006, 10:01 AM
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I can't understand why some people are more concerned about convenience and not looking like a gumby (to lame people that would pass that type of judgement) than safety, but to each his own.


phillygoat


Jun 29, 2006, 10:34 AM
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There is a correlation between looking like a gumby and ignoring a better way to do something. I am sensitive to this because I'm always up to learn a better (faster, more efficient, less bulky) way to climb.

But... You can only care so much- I still attach my chalkbag to my harness via carabiner. :D


slicari


Jul 1, 2006, 6:33 AM
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I agree that this thread has turned more into an insult fest than anything else.

To the original post, I use a 48" daisy. I have been climbing for almost three years and have not run out of uses for it. I use it when I'm building an anchor close to an edge for top rope, hooking into anchors as backups for trad, and hooking into bolts at the top of sport climbs. I'm sure you could do the same thing with runners, it just depends on what you can afford and how you learned. I always use two biners if I am clipping in short. One locker at the end and a basic oval at the specific length that I need. I also clip into each bolt at the the top (being redundant).

As to the safety, watch the video on Black Diamonds web site if you haven't yet. It's linked higher up. I watched it and had no idea that it was possible. But I always used two biners anyways. :D

Don't pay any attention to people that pass judgment on you and your abilities based on the gear that you use. Listen if they are commenting on how you use it, but not what you use. And even that take it for what it's worth. I'd prefer to look like a "gumby" than practice something that I'm not familiar with or see as unsafe and make a fatal mistake.

As to all the people that like to pass judgment on other climbers... what's your climber doing while you are on belay and looking at someone else's setup instead of looking up?


jjanowia


Jul 1, 2006, 8:02 AM
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Thanks - the video was helpful. I find it incredibly unfortunate that there is so much hater-ific hating on this site. I suppose that wading through the BS is the price of getting 'free' advice.

I'm not a fashionista, so I will continue to use the daisy chain.


shockabuku


Jul 1, 2006, 10:20 AM
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A technique that can add a measure of redundancy to your daisy chain use is to use a remaining quickdraw to connect the two anchor bolts together. Someone else mentioned that you can do the same thing by clipping in the daisy chain to the second bolt using another loop on the daisy. It isn't as good a solution as using equalized, independent connections to the two bolts, but it's better than nothing.


maldaly


Jul 1, 2006, 10:48 AM
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Here's a great technique that hasn't been mentioned. It doesn't require extra gear and the climber (cleaner) is always backed up.

The first one up clips the anchors with 24" runners instead of draws. When the last person cleans the pitch she leaves the last draw in place, unclips her rope and clips in the rope that goes down to the belayer. At the anchors, unclip one of the runners from the rope and clip it to the belay loop of your harness. Then do the same with the next. Now do whatever it is you're going to do with the rope (I prefer to thread a bight of rope through the lowering points, tie a figure 8 and clip that into my belay loop with a locker. Then I yell "TAKE", check to see that the system works and that my belayer actually has me, then untie my knot.) and lower off. Clean the last draw as you go past it.

I like this system because:
- you never go off belay
- you're always into at least two independent anchors
- 24" runners allow you a natural position away from the rock to do you thing.
- the only change is gear is to have the leader clip the anchors with 24" runners instead of draws.
- no need to run daisys

While I'm on the subject, I've seen a couple of habits more and more at the sport crags that have killed people.

#1 - When you clip the anchors at the top and are about to clean them DO NOT call down "off", "off belay" or, the current favorite, "I'm in straight". Unless you're setting up a rappel, telling your belayer that you're off can only result in bad stuff happening. It only tells the belayer that she can take you off and that's killed people.

#2 - When you're ready to lower, regardless of weather you've just cleaned the anchors or clipped them, grab the end of the rope that heads to the belayer. It's a really, really simple back up so if the belayer has spaced you'll still be able to hold yourself. Right after that, look down at her and confirm visually that you're actually on belay and she's ready to lower you. It scares the hell out of me to see climbers get to the top, toss the rope through the hooks or chains and just let go without even a glance down to confirm that they're on belay. Too many people have hit the deck from that move.

Climb safe,
Mal


majid_sabet


Jul 1, 2006, 10:58 AM
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You guys may argue over this but, I recently spend two days in seminar, instructor was presenting his test result where he dropped 100 kg weight on a daisy only 1 to 1 1/2 meter simulating a climber standing on a ledge. The result was bad, in fact it was very ugly, every daisy failed but three.

An old school 1 inch daisy (Not sure if any one makes them these days), an 8 mm cord made in to an adjustable semi prussic and the last one, it was a daisy with a screamer built-in which survived.

The test involved video cam and load sensor measuring both forces and time, in less than 0.4 second to 1.6 second a lot things are happening to your set up.
Anyway, my suggestion, use a second backup such as main rope or a cord in addition to your daisy.


jt512


Jul 1, 2006, 10:59 AM
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In reply to:
A technique that can add a measure of redundancy to your daisy chain use is to use a remaining quickdraw to connect the two anchor bolts together.

My nomination for Gumby Innovation of the Year. "Shockabuku." What an appropriate name for someone who would invent such a technique.

Jayh


redrocker


Jul 2, 2006, 4:22 PM
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[quote="rockprodigy"]Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.
Anyone who uses a method different from rockprodigy=Gumby
Arrogant, know-it-alls like rockprodigy=extremely undesirable climbing partners

Whether I'm sport or trad climbing I always have a Metolius PAS girth hitched through my leg and waist tie in point and equipped with a locking biner and always use at least one quickdraw to back it up. I also always have a autoblock backup girth hitched to my leg loop and equipped with a small locking biner. I have enough self esteem to not care what others think of my safety considerations and enough good sense not to climb with the rockprodigy types.


djoseph


Jul 2, 2006, 7:09 PM
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In reply to:
When you're ready to lower, regardless of weather you've just cleaned the anchors or clipped them, grab the end of the rope that heads to the belayer. It's a really, really simple back up so if the belayer has spaced you'll still be able to hold yourself. Right after that, look down at her and confirm visually that you're actually on belay and she's ready to lower you.

Good call on this, Malcolm... someone should sticky this point.

Dan


karlbaba


Jul 2, 2006, 9:42 PM
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In reply to:
You guys may argue over this but, I recently spend two days in seminar, instructor was presenting his test result where he dropped 100 kg weight on a daisy only 1 to 1 1/2 meter simulating a climber standing on a ledge. The result was bad, in fact it was very ugly, every daisy failed but three.

An old school 1 inch daisy (Not sure if any one makes them these days), an 8 mm cord made in to an adjustable semi prussic and the last one, it was a daisy with a screamer built-in which survived.

The test involved video cam and load sensor measuring both forces and time, in less than 0.4 second to 1.6 second a lot things are happening to your set up.
Anyway, my suggestion, use a second backup such as main rope or a cord in addition to your daisy.

Factor one or Factor Two 1 1/2 meter fall? Makes a big difference. In what kind of scenario would a climber take such a fall while setting up an anchor on bolts?

Did he run tests with regular runners and ropes too. Need some control groups.

In real life, a human body in a harness has a lot more give than a 100 KG weight.

Just some perspective.

peace

Karl


the_iceman


Jul 3, 2006, 12:32 AM
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I don't see under any circumstances a daisy chain being fallen on if properly used, they're not to be shock loaded at all. They're not made to catch a fall, only to support weight directly. At least that's my understanding of them.

To the guy who said he uses his Daisy Chain for setting up top-rope anchors. I would strongly recommend not walking, but running far away from that practice. It's a bad idea, and it could get you killed.


jt512


Jul 3, 2006, 9:53 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.
Anyone who uses a method different from rockprodigy=Gumby
Arrogant, know-it-alls like rockprodigy=extremely undesirable climbing partners

Whether I'm sport or trad climbing I always have a Metolius PAS girth hitched through my leg and waist tie in point and equipped with a locking biner and always use at least one quickdraw to back it up. I also always have a autoblock backup girth hitched to my leg loop and equipped with a small locking biner. I have enough self esteem to not care what others think of my safety considerations and enough good sense not to climb with the rockprodigy types.

A PAS and an autoblock with lockers don't make sport climbing any safer. They just add weight and bulk, which makes climbing at your limit harder. Thus non-gumby sport climbers don't carry this junk around on their harness.

Jay


desert_bat


Jul 3, 2006, 10:27 AM
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I'm a newbie and even I have done enough searches to know that this topic has been beat to death many times before. But just to add my comments this time around...

When I was just getting into sport climbing I asked the girl behind the counter at my local climbing store if it was more appropriate to get a daisy chain, runners, or just use draws for cleaning sport climbs. She recommended the daisy chain. After using it for a while I found it to be bulky and cumbersome so I boght a couple of runners and beaners and girth hitched them to my harness. I found this to work much better than the stupid daisy chain.

For sport climbing the chains are usually equalized so you don't need to worry about that. I could see some use for the daisy chain in trad and aid climbing, but I don't recommend it for sport climbing, there are much better alternatives. Now I just have to figure out what to do with the thing. Maybe I should use it as gear sling for trad climbing....


aarong


Jul 3, 2006, 11:20 AM
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I had a daisy loop blow one time while hanging from the anchors of a route. Luckily, the next loop caught me and if it hadn't my backup sling or the tied-off bite of lead rope surely would have - that daisy has since been retired. Needless to say it scared me. A sudden jolt like that under hanging body weight is enough to make you pee yourself - a little.

I still use daisy chains from time to time but I make sure, like all other times, that I am always backed up. I prefer to use a girth-hitched 12-24" sewn sling and locking biner and back up with the lead rope with a tied off figure eight or clove hitch on a bite. Always nice to have something dynamic in the system when it comes to catching a falling body.


paganmonkeyboy


Jul 3, 2006, 11:37 AM
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on sport climbs i like to keep my hammer attached to my swami with a short daisy chain...then you can just clip the biners full of pitons to the daisy loops, and not have to fumble too much when you reach the chains...


kalcario


Jul 3, 2006, 12:34 PM
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In reply to:
Here's a great technique that hasn't been mentioned. It doesn't require extra gear and the climber (cleaner) is always backed up.

The first one up clips the anchors with 24" runners instead of draws. When the last person cleans the pitch she leaves the last draw in place, unclips her rope and clips in the rope that goes down to the belayer. At the anchors, unclip one of the runners from the rope and clip it to the belay loop of your harness. Then do the same with the next. Now do whatever it is you're going to do with the rope (I prefer to thread a bight of rope through the lowering points, tie a figure 8 and clip that into my belay loop with a locker. Then I yell "TAKE", check to see that the system works and that my belayer actually has me, then untie my knot.) and lower off. Clean the last draw as you go past it.

I like this system because:
- you never go off belay
- you're always into at least two independent anchors
- 24" runners allow you a natural position away from the rock to do you thing.
- the only change is gear is to have the leader clip the anchors with 24" runners instead of draws.
- no need to run daisys

While I'm on the subject, I've seen a couple of habits more and more at the sport crags that have killed people.

#1 - When you clip the anchors at the top and are about to clean them DO NOT call down "off", "off belay" or, the current favorite, "I'm in straight". Unless you're setting up a rappel, telling your belayer that you're off can only result in bad stuff happening. It only tells the belayer that she can take you off and that's killed people.

#2 - When you're ready to lower, regardless of weather you've just cleaned the anchors or clipped them, grab the end of the rope that heads to the belayer. It's a really, really simple back up so if the belayer has spaced you'll still be able to hold yourself. Right after that, look down at her and confirm visually that you're actually on belay and she's ready to lower you. It scares the hell out of me to see climbers get to the top, toss the rope through the hooks or chains and just let go without even a glance down to confirm that they're on belay. Too many people have hit the deck from that move.

Climb safe,
Mal

I like your point about grabbing the other end of the rope and visually confirming you're belayer's got you before letting go - I do this every time. But the stuff about cleaning is a little off - you're not cleaning draws when following sport routes unless you absolutely have to (like if it's too diagonal or overhanging to get them while lowering) because you simply clean the draws on the way down.

Also if the thing is hard enough for her that she's following it, not leading it, the last thing she wants to do is unclip her end and clip the other end into the last draw - you set it up for her that way in advance, if you're worried about it. And for the other end to be close enough to the wall that she could reach out and grab it means the belayer has to be standing in the landing zone of anything the climber might drop or knock off. It's better, if you're belaying, to stay out of the drop zone if you can.

And competent teams don't use verbal commands at belays, they don't say anything because everyone already knows what's going to happen at the belay.

Also a bight of rope won't go through chain links, or anything else that won't accept 2 strands - especially if you've already got your biners on your 2 24" runners in there.

Some good advice, though...you must have a good safety record.


svilnit


Jul 3, 2006, 2:39 PM
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Anybody ever use these?

http://images.rei.com/media/693968Prd.jpg


phillygoat


Jul 3, 2006, 4:13 PM
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Anybody ever use these?

http://images.rei.com/media/693968Prd.jpg


Only on my VIII 8a+ M6 W16 proj, yo...


redrocker


Jul 4, 2006, 1:51 PM
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[quote="jt512"]
In reply to:
In reply to:
Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.
Anyone who uses a method different from rockprodigy=Gumby
Arrogant, know-it-alls like rockprodigy=extremely undesirable climbing partners
Whether I'm sport or trad climbing I always have a Metolius PAS girth hitched through my leg and waist tie in point and equipped with a locking biner and always use at least one quickdraw to back it up. I also always have a autoblock backup girth hitched to my leg loop and equipped with a small locking biner. I have enough self esteem to not care what others think of my safety considerations and enough good sense not to climb with the rockprodigy types.

In reply to:
A PAS and an autoblock with lockers don't make sport climbing any safer. They just add weight and bulk, which makes climbing at your limit harder. Thus non-gumby sport climbers don't carry this junk around on their harness.

A PAS with a quickdraw backup is my chosen method of anchoring myself to bolted belays on trad climbs and also for anchoring myself to the chains when cleaning a sport climb. Not necessarily safer than other methods just my choice. The autoblock backup I always use when rappeling whether from a multipitch trad climb or a 3 bolt sport climb. Isn't using a backup when rappeling safer than not? It takes about 20 seconds to rig when it's already girth hitched to my leg loop.
Obviously I don't climb hard enough to notice the impact of the added weight and bulk that this extra gear causes. If that makes me a Gumby in the opinions of others I accept the label but refuse to allow those opinions to make me self conscious.
P.S. Many of my climbing partners make fun of me from time to time for my gumbiness in this regard but ultimately continue to climb with me despite the derision they may be subjected to as a result of their association with such an obvious gumby.


the_iceman


Jul 5, 2006, 12:00 AM
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Well that's just it. Real climbers don't give a rat's ass about what other people think. They climb for the sake of climbing. The problem with RC.com is that it's full of quite a few posers. ...And not all posers are noobs. The climbers who are worth a shit, climb. And they don't feel themselves so superior that they can't climb with anybody who might have less experience than them. Of course the ones on here who just blow smoke up your ass think that NOBODY has as much expirence or knowledge as them. So they're stuck starting flame wars on web forums. Calling everybody "Gumby" and "N00b", and feeling sorry for themselves that they have nobody to climb with. It's really quite pathetic...


jt512


Jul 5, 2006, 8:36 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.
Anyone who uses a method different from rockprodigy=Gumby
Arrogant, know-it-alls like rockprodigy=extremely undesirable climbing partners
Whether I'm sport or trad climbing I always have a Metolius PAS girth hitched through my leg and waist tie in point and equipped with a locking biner and always use at least one quickdraw to back it up. I also always have a autoblock backup girth hitched to my leg loop and equipped with a small locking biner. I have enough self esteem to not care what others think of my safety considerations and enough good sense not to climb with the rockprodigy types.

A PAS and an autoblock with lockers don't make sport climbing any safer. They just add weight and bulk, which makes climbing at your limit harder. Thus non-gumby sport climbers don't carry this junk around on their harness.

The autoblock backup I always use when rappeling whether from a multipitch trad climb or a 3 bolt sport climb. Isn't using a backup when rappeling safer than not?

Usually. Being lowered by a partner is safer still, especially with a grigri, and it's faster. Gumbies worry about wear on the anchors, rather than considering them to be consumable goods, and using them as intended.

Jay


jt512


Jul 5, 2006, 8:41 AM
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Of course the ones on here who just blow smoke up your ass think that NOBODY has as much expirence or knowledge as them. So they're stuck starting flame wars on web forums. Calling everybody "Gumby" and "N00b", and feeling sorry for themselves that they have nobody to climb with.

I wonder how they got all that experience with nobody to climb with.

Jay


redrocker


Jul 5, 2006, 9:47 PM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Daisy Chain + Sport Crag = Gumby

Now you can debate until the cows come home about whether or not the above equation is FAIR, or even JUSTIFIED, but it would be as productive as debating whether or not 1 + 1 = 2 is fair and justified. It is simply a fact.
Anyone who uses a method different from rockprodigy=Gumby
Arrogant, know-it-alls like rockprodigy=extremely undesirable climbing partners
Whether I'm sport or trad climbing I always have a Metolius PAS girth hitched through my leg and waist tie in point and equipped with a locking biner and always use at least one quickdraw to back it up. I also always have a autoblock backup girth hitched to my leg loop and equipped with a small locking biner. I have enough self esteem to not care what others think of my safety considerations and enough good sense not to climb with the rockprodigy types.

A PAS and an autoblock with lockers don't make sport climbing any safer. They just add weight and bulk, which makes climbing at your limit harder. Thus non-gumby sport climbers don't carry this junk around on their harness.

The autoblock backup I always use when rappeling whether from a multipitch trad climb or a 3 bolt sport climb. Isn't using a backup when rappeling safer than not?

Usually. Being lowered by a partner is safer still, especially with a grigri, and it's faster. Gumbies worry about wear on the anchors, rather than considering them to be consumable goods, and using them as intended.

Jay
Jay, for the record no one (save you) mentioned concern about wear on the anchors as a reason for rappeling vs lowering. I lower off sport climbs when lowering makes more sense than rappeling, but there are also times when rappeling allows me to show consideration for others. How bout my belayer needs to take a piss, have a smoke, eat something, sit down and relax before his turn to climb, etc, etc. Anything but be forced to stay on belay while a noob, gumby like your's truly fumbles and flops around trying to clean the route.
No seriously Jay I hear you. What you say makes sense. But that's really not the issue as far as I'm concerned. The point is I've made the decision to use the methods I use for my own reasons, just as you have done. I like the added safety of using an autoblock 100% of the time when I rappel. I enjoy being able to set my belayer free while I clean the route. I feel good about not putting extra wear on the anchor and my rope sure doesn't complain either.
Anyhow, right or wrong I've said enough on this topic so I'll just monitor this thread until it dies out and see what others have to say.

Be safe, have fun, be kind when you can and ruthless when it's called for!

redrocker


jt512


Jul 6, 2006, 11:56 AM
Post #59 of 63 (6626 views)
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Gumbies worry about wear on the anchors, rather than considering them to be consumable goods, and using them as intended.

Jay
Jay, for the record no one (save you) mentioned concern about wear on the anchors as a reason for rappeling vs lowering.

[..]

I feel good about not putting extra wear on the anchor and my rope sure doesn't complain either.

redrocker

Oops.

Jay


the_iceman


Jul 6, 2006, 9:39 PM
Post #60 of 63 (6626 views)
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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I'm gonna have to agree that rapping is a better option. The attitude that the bolts and chains are expendable is pretty lame. Yeah they wear out eventually, but if we don't have retards prematurely wearing them out, they will last years, and years. As opposed to some areas that get a set of chains worn out in a season or two... By gumbies.

That's not to say I haven't been known to occasionally lower off of them for reasons of time constraints, belayer needing to relax, or whatever. But there are also people who just run their ropes through the chains and dont even use biners when top roping. It's acceptable to occasionally lower off the chains, but don't make it a common practice, and certainly don't just top rope through the chains. Consume your own consumable gear, and try to have as little impact on the permanant gear as reasonably possible.

Also I'm not sure how much wear and tear you'll save on your rope, since either way, you're creating friction on the same surface area of the rope, using either method.


rockprodigy


Jul 10, 2006, 7:24 AM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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Since many did not get it the first time, let me re-phrase:

If you have a daisy chain (or insert Jay's list here) on your harness at a sport crag, you are not sport climbing. You are, in fact trad climbing at a sport crag. People that would trad climb at a sport crag are sport climbing gumbys.

Sport climbing is about pushing your limits...if you're not doing that, you're not sport climbing.

Also, every sport climber worth a damn cares mightily what everyone else thinks...why else would we wear the pink tights?


the_iceman


Jul 11, 2006, 12:25 PM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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If that's the case, why do Trad climbers like clipping bolts so much? Is it because once a crag is developed with sport routes, it will be time for the Trad climbers to move on? Is it not acceptable to still Trad climb a wall, just because it's POSSIBLE to sport climb it? Also, since on some climbs that are poorly bolted, I usually carry a few nuts to protect between badly spaced bolts. But I guess I should just use the route the way it's bolted and risk a 20' grounder...

"Hey, as long as nobody thinks I look silly!"

Like I sad before, If you're really worried about other people's perception of you based on what type of climbing you do, you really don't have any business climbing.

Sad...


potreroed


Jul 11, 2006, 6:50 PM
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Re: Daisy chain use while setting up anchor on bolts? [In reply to]
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rockprodigy(??!!) is still wrong. If I choose to use a daisy chain to attach myself while cleaning an anchor at a sport crag that does not mean I'm trad climbing at a sport crag. And it has absolutely nothing to do with pushing one's limits.


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