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fmd
Aug 23, 2006, 11:15 AM
Post #51 of 60
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Registered: Jun 15, 2006
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In reply to: I think your words are a bit harsh. Many of us don't post just to increase our numbers. Also, I personally take great pride in the quality of instruction I offer to m students. I have simply stopped teaching the keeper knot and chose to focus on the correct tying of a fig 8, perfectly dressed with 6" of tail. If my students learn this, then there is no need for a keeper knot, because the 8 will never fail. To me, it falls on the same line as teaching to belay with an ATC first, over a GriGri. Why dummy proof it from the beginning? We all have our way of doing things, and many of these ways are perfectly acceptable and safe, they are just different.
Hey deltav...just out of curiosity, what do you do with the 6" of tail when you tie a new climber in?? I found that it annoyed a new climber with it just kinda of "flopping" around. I also think austinclimber is ranting. All of these are opinions and that is all that they are. There are some great, competent instructors and guides that are teaching it both ways. Just personal choice is all that it is. It seems that if you dont do it someones else ways, that you WILL die, because its not there way.......
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c4c
Aug 23, 2006, 12:31 PM
Post #52 of 60
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Registered: Jun 18, 2006
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An old-school climber once told me all you need to know is the bowline, bowline-on-a-bite and a butterfly knot. They also said hitches were for horses. If you know how to use those three b's you can do most things safely. IMO
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j_ung
Aug 23, 2006, 12:35 PM
Post #53 of 60
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Registered: Nov 21, 2003
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In reply to: So you've seen a backup to a figure 8 save at least 2 lives? You have climbed with more than 2 people that had their 8 come apart on them?
1. Yes, and I know of a potential third, but I didn't see it myself.
2. No, neither of them were people with whom I was climbing. They were nearby. One was at Carderock, MD. The other was in Sportrock Alexandria. Both lowered to the ground and said something along the lines of, "Wow, I totally tied my knot wrong."
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sbaclimber
Aug 23, 2006, 11:22 PM
Post #54 of 60
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Registered: Jan 22, 2004
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In reply to: An old-school climber once told me all you need to know is the bowline, bowline-on-a-bite and a butterfly knot. They also said hitches were for horses. If you know how to use those three b's you can do most things safely. IMO
A figure-eight on a bight, that's all you *need* to 'do most things safely', if you are TRing or less-than-half-rope-length sport climbing.
Unfortunately, if you want to do many practical things, such as join two ends of rope, cord or webbing together, I think you will find any of the above knots to be next to useless :wink:
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c4c
Aug 24, 2006, 12:40 PM
Post #55 of 60
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Registered: Jun 18, 2006
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In reply to: In reply to: An old-school climber once told me all you need to know is the bowline, bowline-on-a-bite and a butterfly knot. They also said hitches were for horses. If you know how to use those three b's you can do most things safely. IMO It gets even simpler than that...... A figure-eight on a bight, that's all you *need* to 'do most things safely', if you are TRing or less-than-half-rope-length sport climbing. Unfortunately, if you want to do many practical things, such as join two ends of rope, cord or webbing together, I think you will find any of the above knots to be next to useless :wink:
OH yeh barrel knot aka grapevine knot is the other "b" that I forgot. thanks. And as far as a 8 on a bight goes---a bowline on a bight is stronger and safer. There is double strands where the small radius of a clipped caribiner is--redundant. That makes it a better knot for those situations IMO.
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fmd
Aug 24, 2006, 12:58 PM
Post #56 of 60
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Registered: Jun 15, 2006
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: An old-school climber once told me all you need to know is the bowline, bowline-on-a-bite and a butterfly knot. They also said hitches were for horses. If you know how to use those three b's you can do most things safely. IMO It gets even simpler than that...... A figure-eight on a bight, that's all you *need* to 'do most things safely', if you are TRing or less-than-half-rope-length sport climbing. Unfortunately, if you want to do many practical things, such as join two ends of rope, cord or webbing together, I think you will find any of the above knots to be next to useless :wink: OH yeh barrel knot aka grapevine knot is the other "b" that I forgot. thanks. And as far as a 8 on a bight goes--- a bowline on a bight is stronger and safer. There is double strands where the small radius of a clipped caribiner is--redundant. That makes it a better knot for those situations IMO.
UHH....you can do the samething with the figure eight with the double strands. Its call a super eight or Canadian eight. You'll have two loops on it for redundcy...I think the figure eight is safer for it cinches tighter. On top roping, you could have the bowline loosen up if it isn't backed up and set properly. I like to use the yosemite backup on all my bowlines because of this. I believe that the strength is the same on the bowline vs the figure eight also, so the bowline is not a superior knot over the figure eight knot...
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c4c
Aug 28, 2006, 10:59 PM
Post #57 of 60
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Registered: Jun 18, 2006
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: An old-school climber once told me all you need to know is the bowline, bowline-on-a-bite and a butterfly knot. They also said hitches were for horses. If you know how to use those three b's you can do most things safely. IMO It gets even simpler than that...... A figure-eight on a bight, that's all you *need* to 'do most things safely', if you are TRing or less-than-half-rope-length sport climbing. Unfortunately, if you want to do many practical things, such as join two ends of rope, cord or webbing together, I think you will find any of the above knots to be next to useless :wink: OH yeh barrel knot aka grapevine knot is the other "b" that I forgot. thanks. And as far as a 8 on a bight goes--- a bowline on a bight is stronger and safer. There is double strands where the small radius of a clipped caribiner is--redundant. That makes it a better knot for those situations IMO.UHH....you can do the samething with the figure eight with the double strands. Its call a super eight or Canadian eight. You'll have two loops on it for redundcy...I think the figure eight is safer for it cinches tighter. On top roping, you could have the bowline loosen up if it isn't backed up and set properly. I like to use the yosemite backup on all my bowlines because of this. I believe that the strength is the same on the bowline vs the figure eight also, so the bowline is not a superior knot over the figure eight knot...
Eccept that(by your own admition)the figure 8 cinches tighter making it more difficult to untie after being weighted--making it inferior. IMO
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deleted
Deleted
Aug 29, 2006, 3:35 PM
Post #58 of 60
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[quote:c635c4f749="c4c"][quote:c635c4f749="fmd"][quote:c635c4f749="c4c"][quote:c635c4f749="sbaclimber"][quote:c635c4f749="c4c"]An old-school climber once told me all you need to know is the bowline, bowline-on-a-bite and a butterfly knot. They also said hitches were for horses. If you know how to use those three b's you can do most things safely. IMO[/quote:c635c4f749]
It gets even simpler than that......
A figure-eight on a bight, that's all you *need* to 'do most things safely', if you are TRing or less-than-half-rope-length sport climbing.
Unfortunately, if you want to do many practical things, such as join two ends of rope, cord or webbing together, I think you will find any of the above knots to be next to useless :wink:[/quote:c635c4f749]
OH yeh barrel knot aka grapevine knot is the other "b" that I forgot. thanks. And as far as a 8 on a bight goes---[b:c635c4f749]a bowline on a bight is stronger and safer. There is double strands where the small radius of a clipped caribiner is--redundant. That makes it a better knot for those situations IMO.[/quote:c635c4f749][/b:c635c4f749]
UHH....you can do the samething with the figure eight with the double strands. Its call a super eight or Canadian eight. You'll have two loops on it for redundcy...I think the figure eight is safer for it cinches tighter. On top roping, you could have the bowline loosen up if it isn't backed up and set properly. I like to use the yosemite backup on all my bowlines because of this. I believe that the strength is the same on the bowline vs the figure eight also, [b:c635c4f749]so the bowline is not a superior knot over the figure eight knot[/b:c635c4f749]...[/quote:c635c4f749]
Eccept that(by your own admition)the figure 8 cinches tighter making it [b:c635c4f749]more difficult to untie after being weighted--making it inferior. IMO[/b:c635c4f749][/quote:c635c4f749]
Thats why most climbers tie in with a figure eight instead of a bowline. Because there is a less of a chance of the figure eight coming undone due to cycling of the rope...cinching tighter more than the bowline is one of the reasons it makes it a better knot. IMHO............. :)
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pastprime
Aug 29, 2006, 5:06 PM
Post #59 of 60
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Registered: Jul 7, 2005
Posts: 251
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Back in the days of knickers and laid ropes, the bowline was the standard tie in knot. After it became known that it could, in some circumstances, untie itself, with sometimes fatal consequences, most of the climbing community abandonded it in favor of the figure eight, which does not have that problem. A few old timers hung onto it, along with their walking stick lengtht ice axes and lace up gaiters, but it was considered a dangerous relic of a less enlightened time.
Now that falling repeatedly has become popular, the untieability of a bowline has caused its rebirth, largely, I suspect, among people who weren't born at the times its shortcomings were being publisized.
If someone wants to use a bowline, it should be backed up with some other knot that is reliable. Any knot, even a granny knot, would be safe if it were properly backed up with another knot that can be counted on. That way one gets the desired ability to be untied after loading, with the safety of another reliable knot that doesn't get jammed by the load of repeated falls.
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deleted
Deleted
Aug 29, 2006, 9:17 PM
Post #60 of 60
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[quote:34d16fd35b="pastprime"][b:34d16fd35b]Back in the days of knickers [/b:34d16fd35b]and laid ropes, the bowline was the standard tie in knot. After it became known that it could, in some circumstances, untie itself, with sometimes fatal consequences, most of the climbing community abandonded it in favor of the figure eight, which does not have that problem. A few old timers hung onto it, along with their walking stick lengtht ice axes and [b:34d16fd35b]lace up gaiters[/b:34d16fd35b], but it was considered a dangerous relic of a less enlightened time.
Now that falling repeatedly has become popular, the untieability of a bowline has caused its rebirth, largely, I suspect, among people who weren't born at the times its shortcomings were being publisized.
If someone wants to use a bowline, it should be backed up with some other knot that is reliable. Any knot, even a granny knot, would be safe if it were properly backed up with another knot that can be counted on. That way one gets the desired ability to be untied after loading, with the safety of another reliable knot that doesn't get jammed by the load of repeated falls.[/quote:34d16fd35b]
AHHH.....that is OLD....I'd bet that looked cute :P
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