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luv_anmls
Sep 29, 2006, 5:52 PM
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Okay, so I stopped in the gym lastnight and was working some boulder problems, and a buddy of mine asked me if I knew anything about local bolt chopoping that had happend this past week at the Black Cliffson on the Popullace Wall. He told me what he knew...and I am furious! So this post is basically me bitching about some jack ass who watched the Reel Rock Tour that played here in town last week- and got the bright idea from First Accent to start chopping bolts locally. Not only did this individual chop bolts...but whoever it was chopped bolts on a couple routes that are FIVE EIGHT!!!! Now I guess it would be less of a big deal (but still not good) if it was a .12 crack or higher, but this was done on the face climbs of basalt dihedrals! Totally not in the way for placing protection!! This place has been frequently climbed for the last twenty years, and the bolt quality is fine. There are hundreds of routes in this area much of which is bolted. Besides these lines aren't newly bolted, they have been there for quite awhile! So...long story short...I'm pissed that someone did this to such a great warm up route. Its a horrible thing to do to such entry level climbs. Verbal and/or written communiction amongst the trad climbers and sport climbers is the best way to solve problems if someone has an issue. And if for some reason bolts need to be removed and/or replaced, then the FA should be consulted, and the climbers alliance can discuss it, and take action if need be...not have some jack ass scar or permenantly damage the rock in the process of something like this!! If anyone know's who is responsible, tell them to quit because if the new owners of Carbody find out about this vandalism happening on other rock in the area, we may loose access to Carbody Canyon permanently! Wouldn't that person feel special.
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elvislegs
Sep 29, 2006, 6:08 PM
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heather, which routes were chopped?
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michaelmay513
Sep 29, 2006, 7:31 PM
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Last week my partner and I went up to the short cliffs to climb and noticed a bolted 5.6 to the way right of the wall. He thought it would be a good route to have his dad try climbing. He went up there this past wedneday to discover that the anchors were missing. Are there other routes affected by this moron(s)? Mike
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michaelmay513
Sep 29, 2006, 7:32 PM
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Last week my partner and I went up to the short cliffs to climb and noticed a bolted 5.6 to the way right of the wall. He thought it would be a good route to have his dad try climbing. He went up there this past wedneday to discover that the anchors were missing. Are there other routes affected by this moron(s)? Mike
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michaelmay513
Sep 29, 2006, 7:36 PM
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Last week my partner and I went to the short cliffs to climb and we noticed a bolted 5.6 to the way right of the wall. My partner thought it would be a great route to have his dad try out while he was in town. He went up there this past wednesday to discover that the anchors had been removed. Are there any other routes affected by this idiot or group of morons? Mike
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dfoote07
Sep 29, 2006, 8:38 PM
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That sucks. I can't believe that someone would do that. What a hoser. I hope that people find out who is doing that and stops them. That would suck to loose access to the cliffs. That can't happen. Thanks for the info. I hope that everything get cleared up with that, and the bolts replaced. Derek
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j_ung
Sep 29, 2006, 8:44 PM
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luv_animals, with all due respect, it sounds as though every bit of your information is second hand at best. Do you have an idea who did this? Have you spoken with that person?
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atpeaceinbozeman
Sep 29, 2006, 9:07 PM
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Second hand info or not, is still seems the routes were chopped, which sucks. I do agree that 'more better' info would be appreciated though... Tom Look on the bright side: at least you were out climbing last night... :wink:
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j_ung
Sep 29, 2006, 9:35 PM
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In reply to: Second hand info or not, is still seems the routes were chopped, which sucks. I do agree that 'more better' info would be appreciated though... Tom Look on the bright side: at least you were out climbing last night... :wink: Even the info that the routes were chopped is second hand at this point. Has anybody here seen them first hand? Apologies if I misunderstood the OP.
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luv_anmls
Sep 29, 2006, 10:43 PM
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Okay, so here is the deal. First--I don't know who is chopping...I am trying to find out, or hoping that one of you know, so as to stop this activity before we loose access in Carbody or more areas due to rock damage/vandalism. Kinda scary this is occuring when debate as to wheather we retain access to Carbody is still underway due to the land negotiations in contention with Skyline development. Next--Yes this is second hand info at best, but all from reliable sources. I have not had the chance to personally go up and see the damages done today since I only learned of this info around 11pm lastnight. The guy that had told me of this occurance had seen it himself. Also--I have been corresponding with Brian of BCA, and the access fund. He confirmed this information, and has told me that the chopping has been occuring at startling rates within the past week. He has informed me that BCA will be posting bolt chopping signs at the Cliffs in the info kiosks. --As to what climbs are currently affected...I'm waiting to hear from Brian with a diffinitive answer. Apparently its rumored that the area of Popullace that has Sweet Adean were/are targeted. However...apparently their ethics only go so far because Brian said that they left bolts on White Wash. -Strange. Also if the short cliffs are affected also...then I am sure it is not isolated. Keep your eyes open, and post it on here when you find routes with some or all bolts missing. This way we will have a tally running on the damages. Thanks, and let me know if you have any other questions that I may be able to help with. -Heather
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luv_anmls
Sep 29, 2006, 10:45 PM
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Okay, so here is the deal. First--I don't know who is chopping...I am trying to find out, or hoping that one of you know, so as to stop this activity before we loose access in Carbody or more areas due to rock damage/vandalism. Kinda scary this is occuring when debate as to wheather we retain access to Carbody is still underway due to the land negotiations in contention with Skyline development. Next--Yes this is second hand info at best, but all from reliable sources. I have not had the chance to personally go up and see the damages done today since I only learned of this info around 11pm lastnight. The guy that had told me of this occurance had seen it himself. Also--I have been corresponding with Brian of BCA, and the access fund. He confirmed this information, and has told me that the chopping has been occuring at startling rates within the past week. He has informed me that BCA will be posting bolt chopping signs at the Cliffs in the info kiosks. --As to what climbs are currently affected...I'm waiting to hear from Brian with a diffinitive answer. Apparently its rumored that the area of Popullace that has Sweet Adean were/are targeted. However...apparently their ethics only go so far because Brian said that they left bolts on White Wash. -Strange. Also if the short cliffs are affected also...then I am sure it is not isolated. Keep your eyes open, and post it on here when you find routes with some or all bolts missing. This way we will have a tally running on the damages. Thanks, and let me know if you have any other questions that I may be able to help with. -Heather
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luv_anmls
Sep 29, 2006, 10:46 PM
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Okay, so here is the deal. First--I don't know who is chopping...I am trying to find out, or hoping that one of you know, so as to stop this activity before we loose access in Carbody or more areas due to rock damage/vandalism. Kinda scary this is occuring when debate as to wheather we retain access to Carbody is still underway due to the land negotiations in contention with Skyline development. Next--Yes this is second hand info at best, but all from reliable sources. I have not had the chance to personally go up and see the damages done today since I only learned of this info around 11pm lastnight. The guy that had told me of this occurance had seen it himself. Also--I have been corresponding with Brian of BCA, and the access fund. He confirmed this information, and has told me that the chopping has been occuring at startling rates within the past week. He has informed me that BCA will be posting bolt chopping signs at the Cliffs in the info kiosks. --As to what climbs are currently affected...I'm waiting to hear from Brian with a diffinitive answer. Apparently its rumored that the area of Popullace that has Sweet Adean were/are targeted. However...apparently their ethics only go so far because Brian said that they left bolts on White Wash. -Strange. Also if the short cliffs are affected also...then I am sure it is not isolated. Keep your eyes open, and post it on here when you find routes with some or all bolts missing. This way we will have a tally running on the damages. Thanks, and let me know if you have any other questions that I may be able to help with. -Heather
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atpeaceinbozeman
Sep 29, 2006, 10:57 PM
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thanks for the additional info, hope ya'll get this issue cleared up soon. Tom
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takanhase
Oct 1, 2006, 2:35 AM
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I was there this weekend, I started off at the short clifs and noticed that the anchors for the toddler where GONE! I don't know why a short easy route would be clipped at the anchors? the route could be climbed on gear but.. the bolts where left intact! 1
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hobo
Oct 2, 2006, 8:24 PM
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Huh I've often wondered why some climbs ever even got bolts ie the virgin, promiscuity crack or even whitewash but not sweet adene. but the thing about the anchors on toddler stumps me you can't even see the anchors from the ground. what is going on? I feel the same about chopping pre-existing sport climbs with no crack pro as I do about bolting crack climbs Its unnecessary. :x
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hobo
Oct 2, 2006, 8:25 PM
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Huh I've often wondered why some climbs ever even got bolts ie the virgin, promiscuity crack or even whitewash but not sweet adene. but the thing about the anchors on toddler stumps me you can't even see the anchors from the ground. what is going on? I feel the same about chopping pre-existing sport climbs with no crack pro as I do about bolting crack climbs Its unnecessary. :x
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hobo
Oct 2, 2006, 8:31 PM
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Huh I've often wondered why some climbs ever even got bolts ie the virgin, promiscuity crack or even whitewash but not sweet adene. but the thing about the anchors on toddler stumps me you can't even see the anchors from the ground. what is going on? I feel the same about chopping pre-existing sport climbs with no crack pro as I do about bolting crack climbs Its unnecessary. Most of the climbs at the black cliffs can be led on trad gear if you don't mind being a little bold. but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any bolts there are penty of testpiece hard trad lines as well as easy trad lines out there.
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gmreeves
Oct 2, 2006, 8:36 PM
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Maybe the landowner decided he didn't want the bolts on his property because the bolts were in fact the vandelism. Maybe he has been having people remove the ugly bolts from his pretty cliffs.
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j_ung
Oct 2, 2006, 8:50 PM
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In reply to: Okay, so here is the deal. First--I don't know who is chopping...I am trying to find out, or hoping that one of you know, so as to stop this activity before we loose access in Carbody or more areas due to rock damage/vandalism. Kinda scary this is occuring when debate as to wheather we retain access to Carbody is still underway due to the land negotiations in contention with Skyline development. Next--Yes this is second hand info at best, but all from reliable sources. I have not had the chance to personally go up and see the damages done today since I only learned of this info around 11pm lastnight. The guy that had told me of this occurance had seen it himself. Also--I have been corresponding with Brian of BCA, and the access fund. He confirmed this information, and has told me that the chopping has been occuring at startling rates within the past week. He has informed me that BCA will be posting bolt chopping signs at the Cliffs in the info kiosks. --As to what climbs are currently affected...I'm waiting to hear from Brian with a diffinitive answer. Apparently its rumored that the area of Popullace that has Sweet Adean were/are targeted. However...apparently their ethics only go so far because Brian said that they left bolts on White Wash. -Strange. Also if the short cliffs are affected also...then I am sure it is not isolated. Keep your eyes open, and post it on here when you find routes with some or all bolts missing. This way we will have a tally running on the damages. Thanks, and let me know if you have any other questions that I may be able to help with. -Heather Ah, I see. My bad. I thought from this statement:
In reply to: So this post is basically me bitching about some jack ass who watched the Reel Rock Tour that played here in town last week- and got the bright idea from First Accent to start chopping bolts locally. ...that you had an idea who did it. Well, best of luck. I know first hand how frustrating it can be to deal with this kind thing. People who chop and don't own up to it are cowards, plainly and simply.
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elvislegs
Oct 2, 2006, 9:15 PM
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something really doesn't add up about this. this doesn't seem like the work of some offended trad hardman / woman. as has already been said, there are a number of other routes which might have made sense to chop, and been easier to do as well. no, this is so random that it almost has to be a non-climber. someone who only knows that this will piss off climbers.
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ahwoo
Oct 2, 2006, 11:06 PM
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In reply to: something really doesn't add up about this. this doesn't seem like the work of some offended trad hardman / woman. as has already been said, there are a number of other routes which might have made sense to chop, and been easier to do as well. no, this is so random that it almost has to be a non-climber. someone who only knows that this will piss off climbers. i'm not sure how the access is around there (setting up TRs and rap lines), but don't you think this person have to be a climber to gain access to the bolts/anchors?
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elvislegs
Oct 3, 2006, 9:39 PM
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perhaps, but not necessarily. they'd at least have to know how to rappel. just seems very strange that they would chop THOSE particular routes if they were climbers. believe me, there are some pretty egregious examples of bolted cracks out there, some really dumb retro-bolt hack jobs. those haven't been touched.
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luv_anmls
Oct 4, 2006, 4:51 AM
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In reply to: perhaps, but not necessarily. they'd at least have to know how to rappel. just seems very strange that they would chop THOSE particular routes if they were climbers. believe me, there are some pretty egregious examples of bolted cracks out there, some really dumb retro-bolt hack jobs. those haven't been touched. hahaha I second that!!
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boltdude
Oct 4, 2006, 6:19 AM
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Don't forget a prime reason for bolt "chopping" has nothing to do with ethics or trad vs. sport - often it's simply stealing bolt hangers. Sometimes even by non-climbers. I've climbed at the Black Cliffs, and they're FUN! But there are some blatantly bolted cracks. If it's ethically driven, I'd expect to see some protection bolts near cracks chopped. If it's just a few anchors, and there seems to be no correlation to bolted cracks, you can be pretty sure it's hanger theft - climber or not (for those who haven't been there, it's easy to walk to the top and many anchors can be accessed without any climbing gear).
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atpeaceinbozeman
Oct 10, 2006, 5:07 PM
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any updates on this?
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takanhase
Oct 10, 2006, 10:22 PM
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I was up at the populace wall on saturday, it looks like little nest was chopped, as was white wash. sweet adine is still intact. but those where the only two routes that I saw that where clipped. Mike
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s_grimm
Oct 15, 2006, 9:40 PM
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Just wanted to set a few things straight. I'd heard that the anchors were chopped on "Toddler'" so I thought I'd check it out. They are still there!! I think the confusion stems from the fact that someone moved the anchors. Just above the final bolt, you can see where the old anchors were removed. Keep climbing and you will see the newer anchor chains back on a large ledge. The placement helps as an anchor for "First Lead" to the left but requires that you use double length slings for toprope anchors on "Toddler." As for the actual chopping....at the Populace Wall, "Little Nest" has been completely chopped. This seems senseless as it isn't really a quality trad lead, and it has been, until now, a nice warm up or a place to take beginners. "Whitewash" has been chopped except for the first and last bolt. This is strange because there is fine natural protection at both places. It just seems inconsistent with whatever the point may be that someone is trying to make. Finally, my two cents....There are routes at the Black Cliffs that can be lead on trad but are bolted. If I choose to, I eschew the bolts and use my trad gear. I think the time to disagree about bolts is when the route is developed --not many years after the fact. Acting unilaterally to promote one's own agenda is just selfish.
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trebork2
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Oct 18, 2006, 4:35 PM
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I've seen the damage done at Populace Wall. Some bolts are gone on Little Nest and White Wash. They are both perfectly protectable routes. Why bolts were ever put on them??? Who knows. I believe the top bolt on White Wash was left because the crack runs out below it. As far as the first bolt left maybe a directional to keep gear from pulling out? Who knows again? As far as the anchors missing on Toodler they aren't. They are still there, right where they have been for the last few years. I don't see a problem with the bolts being chopped. If the Black Cliffs had taller longer crack routes that were bolted and I had time and the want to I'd chop every bolted crack route out there. That's just because I believe that if it can be protected by trad gear let it be. Sounds like luv_anmls and a few other only sport climbers have there panties in a wad. And don't come back with a response saying that you don't have the money for trad gear. It's a lame excuse. Everyone in Boise has the money for trad gear. Cheers Rob
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joedoe
Oct 18, 2006, 5:01 PM
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Just so you know your not alone trebork2 - I too support the idea of bolt-chopping at many of these northwest, bolted when they shouldn't have been cracks being chopped. Everyones heard the war stories of dishman rock in washington. Cracks should never be bolted. Areas that have a lot of crack climbs should not have their face counterparts bolted when there is adequate natural lines around it (Veda what?, Spring Mountain, OR etc...) Not enough people have a sense of history, think Gunks, running it out between horizontals just to make a natural line happen. If an area has only bolted lines available, thats one thing. Bolting cracks and bolting aretes and faces where adequate corner crack systems etc... is excessive encroachment on the natural environment. Buy trad gear, its cheaper than a drill
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luv_anmls
Oct 22, 2006, 1:08 AM
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In reply to: I've seen the damage done at Populace Wall. Some bolts are gone on Little Nest and White Wash. They are both perfectly protectable routes. Why bolts were ever put on them??? Who knows. I believe the top bolt on White Wash was left because the crack runs out below it. As far as the first bolt left maybe a directional to keep gear from pulling out? Who knows again? As far as the anchors missing on Toodler they aren't. They are still there, right where they have been for the last few years. I don't see a problem with the bolts being chopped. If the Black Cliffs had taller longer crack routes that were bolted and I had time and the want to I'd chop every bolted crack route out there. That's just because I believe that if it can be protected by trad gear let it be. Sounds like luv_anmls and a few other only sport climbers have there panties in a wad. And don't come back with a response saying that you don't have the money for trad gear. It's a lame excuse. Everyone in Boise has the money for trad gear. Cheers Rob believe it or not...i have trad gear. not as much as i would like...but im climbing trad. so whatever. and further more, im not opposed to bolt chopping on lines that are good, and when placement of protection is avaliable. i am however opposed to bolt chopping THESE lines, specifically because M.S. and his climbing partners went to so much trouble in our community in the 90's-they put alot of money and effort into making the black cliffs accessable to ALL types of climbers. if you prefer trad, thats fine. but who are you to say that if a sport climber wants to climb a bolted route in boise they cant. for goodness sakes-this is the black cliffs...those bolts have been there along time and not all were poorly placed routes. we arent talking about a national park with intense bolting regs, and if it pisses off a trad climber that those bolts have been there for as long as they have-then go across the river and climb the cliffs there-don't disrespect the FA by chopping with out permission.
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luv_anmls
Oct 22, 2006, 1:08 AM
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In reply to: I've seen the damage done at Populace Wall. Some bolts are gone on Little Nest and White Wash. They are both perfectly protectable routes. Why bolts were ever put on them??? Who knows. I believe the top bolt on White Wash was left because the crack runs out below it. As far as the first bolt left maybe a directional to keep gear from pulling out? Who knows again? As far as the anchors missing on Toodler they aren't. They are still there, right where they have been for the last few years. I don't see a problem with the bolts being chopped. If the Black Cliffs had taller longer crack routes that were bolted and I had time and the want to I'd chop every bolted crack route out there. That's just because I believe that if it can be protected by trad gear let it be. Sounds like luv_anmls and a few other only sport climbers have there panties in a wad. And don't come back with a response saying that you don't have the money for trad gear. It's a lame excuse. Everyone in Boise has the money for trad gear. Cheers Rob believe it or not...i have trad gear. not as much as i would like...but im climbing trad. so whatever. and further more, im not opposed to bolt chopping on lines that are good, and when placement of protection is avaliable. i am however opposed to bolt chopping THESE lines, specifically because M.S. and his climbing partners went to so much trouble in our community in the 90's-they put alot of money and effort into making the black cliffs accessable to ALL types of climbers. if you prefer trad, thats fine. but who are you to say that if a sport climber wants to climb a bolted route in boise they cant. for goodness sakes-this is the black cliffs...those bolts have been there along time and not all were poorly placed routes. we arent talking about a national park with intense bolting regs, and if it pisses off a trad climber that those bolts have been there for as long as they have-then go across the river and climb the cliffs there-don't disrespect the FA by chopping with out permission.
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elvislegs
Oct 25, 2006, 6:45 PM
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heh. this is getting comical. hey trebork, i climb almost exclusively on gear, up to mid 5.11, have trad first ascents at the black cliffs, and have done both of the effected routes without clipping bolts, and i'm still pissed that they were chopped. does that change your jive-ass theories any? you big manly trad tough guy you.
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trebork2
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Oct 26, 2006, 9:55 PM
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elvislegs Wow congrats!!! Do you want a medal or something? Maybe a five page interview with you in Rock and Ice? I don't give a care if you climb 5.4 or 5.14 on gear. All I said was I don't give a shit that they were chopped since they were protectable. Did I start talking shit buy saying I'm some "big manly trad tough guy??" No. luv_anmls I don't read the Boise Climbs book like a bible such as yourself but I bet M.S. and his climbing partners probably did all of those FA's on gear. I could be wrong but I'm probably right. And if I'm not oh well. I won't loose sleep over it. Hopefully this unknown bolt chopper will go chop some more bolted crack routes and set an even bigger fire under your ass. As far as elvislegs and his super mack daddy climbing skills... if his "jive-ass" wants some more theories and more stuff to get comical it can.
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elvislegs
Oct 26, 2006, 11:41 PM
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In reply to: All I said was I don't give a s--- that they were chopped since they were protectable. Did I start talking s--- buy saying I'm some "big manly trad tough guy??" No. no, actually, you said that the people who were upset about this were people who only climbed sport routes. observe: In reply to: Sounds like luv_anmls and a few other only sport climbers have there panties in a wad. And don't come back with a response saying that you don't have the money for trad gear. It's a lame excuse. Everyone in Boise has the money for trad gear. my post was not to show that i am some hard climber. i know better. i was, however, trying to show that someone out there with at least a few years of experience pushing hard above gear in boise was also upset about this, not just those nasty old "only sport" climbers. in my opinion, hubris from supposed "trad" climbers really IS comical. almost all of us start on bolts. i bet you've climbed both of those routes on bolts at some point just like i and most of boise's climbers have. be honest, you have, and you weren't complaining about the pro then were you? yeah, but that was before you bought all those big no. 5 camalots that you like to clip to the outside of your pack huh? NOW you have cams, now you lead on gear, so now you can pop off about how you would chop this or that. look, ugly as it might be, even though white wash was originally a gear lead (not mike's), it has been bolted for a very long time, as have alot of cracks at the cliffs. sadly, the local ethic has allowed this in the past. i don't know why. i don't like the bolting of cracks any more than you do dude, believe me i like pure crack climbing as much as just about anyone else out there, and i think that crack bolting is shameful. and i DON'T think it should happen at the cliffs now. that said, i think the only way to avoid the bolt war nonsense, is for both sides of the bolt cracks / don't bolt fence to keep with the local ethic, and regard the past as the past. does anyone really think the bolts won't reappear on white wash and little nest? it's foolsih to think so. so let's not go down that road. in the end, it's the routes that suffer (along with access), as the bolts are continually chopped and redrilled, and new cracks get bolted as retribution. good luck in alaska mate. cheers, -sean
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trebork2
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Oct 27, 2006, 2:28 AM
Post #35 of 35
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Check your PM's elvislegs. As far as climbing those routes when they were bolted. I have climbed them both ways. I've climbed most bolted routes mid 11's and down at the cliffs. I still climb sport routes today. Whoever chopped them and why we will probably never know. I believe the bolts are already back on White Wash from what I've heard. If anybody wants to talk anymore on this topic PM because I'm done checking the thread.
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